Can we stop pretending that we don't need more shoujo anime?

Xenophon01 said:
Now I am starting to wonder why they never were called Shoujotards.

DigiCat said:
@Fario-P, the title wasn't inspired by another thread gaining lots of traction here on MAL, was it? 😂

Though i'm not that into shoujo myself, i do agree the number and quality of shoujo released today has dropped, the golden age of shoujo were the 90s/2000s

DigiCat said:

I'm not talking about the artstyle, but about certain angles things are drawn in a way to appeal to guys

Of course Women are allowed to be sexy in shoujo, but it's gonna be drawn from a woman's perspective

It's 100% normal that shounen, target audience male, is gonna draw women in a way that's desireble, and shoujo, target audience female, is gonna draw men in a way that's desireble

And there's many other things which are done differently with shounen and shoujo
Take battle shounen for example and compare it to something like Precure, which could be considered a battle shoujo, both are action genre, but there gonna be distinc differences between the way battles look in something like MHA (shounen) vs how they look in Precure (shoujo)

And that's just a general idea, there's also gonna be exeptions, experiments, which don't follow similar paterns we usually see

Catalano said:
I can't understand why shoujo manga isn't adapted anymore considering that there is still a big audience for that, just look at Orange and what happened after the anime (it was already famous when it was manga only though), it received 2 sequel volumes and they made a movie out of vol6. Kimi no Todoke ran for 30 volumes, also receiving bonus chapters after the end. There is basically n ogood reason as to not adapt shoujo manga, the money reason fails, the popularity reason fails (look at how well received frubas was, it also got a sequel movie).
I say it's a trend thing, bigshots just wanna invest in easy stuff like isekai and shounen, hell we don't even get ecchi anime nowadays.
In conclusion, we need variety in anime not for the sake of variety but because people would certainly watch that as proven above.

Crunchyroll: Shojo Anime Genre Has Strong Growth Potential
posted on 2022-03-31 11:45 EDT by Kim Morrissy
Titles aimed at female audiences over-perform due to unmet demand from low supply

Crunchyroll held a business seminar on Tuesday aimed at Japanese businesses. Part of the presentation centered on explaining current consumer trends in the west based on the service's viewership numbers. Chief Customer Officer Asa Suehira explained that while shonen battle anime and "isekai" fantasy series continue to dominate, anime aimed at a female audience have strong growth potential. He stated that these titles tend to over-perform due to unmet demand from low supply, citing Fruits Basket as an example.

"In the west, where female anime fans were underserved with relevant content historically, shojo, josei, and even some BL titles are showing stronger performances than expected," he said. Fans of idol anime shouldn't get their hopes up, however, as female-targeted idol anime were singled out as the exception to this trend.

Nevertheless, Crunchyroll's data indicates that tastes among anime fans are becoming more varied, although Suehira did note that it can be harder to predict which of those titles will become hits. He also remarked that well-produced romantic comedies aimed at male audiences, such as My Dress-Up Darling, have also been on the rise in recent years, with such titles even cracking the top 5 in a given season.

jal90 said:

It's not completely pointless when the OP is missing them in her rant. Saying this: "Anime is just trashy isekais, generic shonen, badly animated CGI fests, and big titties on display now".

doily said:
the latest shoujo is about a 26 year old male grooming a 15 year old girl.

Fario-P said:


But seriously though, where's the proof that those other anime that Sphinxter alt reginald11 are shoujo? Were those licensed in a magazine confirmed by producers to be "shoujo"? Because I sure as hell didn't hear anything about that for these ones. I already pointed out that Romantic Killer isn't even shoujo, as despite whatever intention the author may have supposedly had the series was still published in Shonen Jump+ and is therefore technically a shounen. Whatever demographic something is, whether it's shoujo, shounen, seinen, josei, or kodomo, is not based on specific storytelling style or what we personally believe. Demographic tags are strictly decided by marketing choices made by the people producing these magazines in Japan. Not the fans, and certainly not us reading these stories from overseas.

I do agree that we should still hold out some hope for classic shoujo to return sometime soon though.

Xenophon01 said:
I never realized Shoujo fans were so obsessive as Shounen fans, often every week there is one topic like this claiming a imaginary injustice agaisnt the genre, not understanding the reasons of such events in the actual market is obviously a coping mechanism from them, delusional in every way. Now I am starting to wonder why they never were called Shoujotards.

Crow_Black said:


Colleen's Manga recs is an upcoming manga/anituber who's already done a hell of a job getting shoujo/josei talked about more and she's already got quite the following as well too.

Fario-P said:
I like how you attributed that quote to me when it's actually directly lifted from part of the bait thread I was parodying in the first place lmaoooo

But seriously though, where's the proof that those other anime that Sphinxter alt reginald11 are shoujo? Were those licensed in a magazine confirmed by producers to be "shoujo"? Because I sure as hell didn't hear anything about that for these ones. I already pointed out that Romantic Killer isn't even shoujo, as despite whatever intention the author may have supposedly had the series was still published in Shonen Jump+ and is therefore technically a shounen. Whatever demographic something is, whether it's shoujo, shounen, seinen, josei, or kodomo, is not based on specific storytelling style or what we personally believe. Demographic tags are strictly decided by marketing choices made by the people producing these magazines in Japan. Not the fans, and certainly not us reading these stories from overseas.

betaweeb said:
though i haven't experienced as many shoujo series as i have some other demographics, i'm interested in (slowly) changing that and i would love if classic shoujo titles that i haven't read\heard about would get quality and high profile adaptations, reprints that get some marketing pushes and so on.

i will say though, that whenever i shadow frequent these threads, i find a lot of the responses to be toxic and they kind of turn me off trying to engage with these fans in any attempt to learn what might be there in the demographic for me, as not unliike most other MAL users, a lot of the time instead of trying to further any kind of positivity regarding this part of the fandom, that they supposedly love and are a part of, people seem more interested in flexing and saying how more recent shoujo series suck (such as the ones i've mentioned that i adore) and how that one manga from the 70's the no one but them has ever heard about is a hundred times better than those popular ones that made me interested in this demographic in the first place.

regardless and as i've stated, i'm interested in experiencing and supporting more shoujo series. not too long ago i purchased half of kitchen princess physically (and the rest digitally since it wasn't available physically in a reasonable price) and really liked it and got to read a couple others through kindle unlimited which were alright, though i do prefer to read and own physical volumes, as you might conclude from what i wrote.

so, thanks for putting together these threads, that always seem like a lot of thought and effort were poured into them and to answer your question, yes, i really hope both the industry and the community would stop pretending we don't need shoujos, as we definitely do, or at least i do.

maybe some high profile videos from more mainstream anitubers could help, though honestly i don't really know what could spark a real shoujo anime renaissance other than some massive commercial mega hit, but i hope that it happens.

Fario-P said:
That's great to hear that you're open to trying out shoujo! ✩
Hearing about some of the negativity you may have seen is a bit disheartening though. Was I one of those people by any chance? I admit I can get real snobby sometimes, but I have been trying to give newer shoujo a bit of a chance if possible. Sorry if I ended up souring your perception on shoujo and the shoujo manga community in anyway.

Wow, you're welcome! I'm glad we agree, especially on how good Kitchen Princess is!! Do you agree that Kitchen Princess deserves an anime adaptation? I love the manga so much, so I'm curious to see any further thoughts you have on the series.



Yeah, probably.
Like @Crow_Black said, there is Colleen's Manga Recs, and I did link to The Anime Tea earlier, but I don't know anyone else who talks about shoujo as much.

Oh, and I see you have Twin Spica and Full Moon on your Plan To Read list! Hope you get around to them cuz they're more of my favorites!!!

Crow_Black said:

And speaking of digi, i have to remind @digicat you have to watch dead leaves,hells and redline its trippy af and a big mind fuck, but its such a wild trip.

reginald11 said:
Then give me some concrete examples of such, because you're going up against a tall mountain here. The facts are:

- It is licensed by Shojo Beat
- Almost all of it's fans seem to be female, judging from comment sections and “people who bought this also bought..." sections a book stores
- Shonen Jump+ calls it “syouzyomanga” in it's Japanese description field
- It is an “otome harem”.

You go up against this with some subjective argument that “the panneling” implies it must be “designed for boys” without giving an example, going up against a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

This title has a female protagonist and is written from said's protagonist's perspective.

You'd be surprised how many female-targeted stories exist where all male characters are irredeemable, undesirable scumbags and so are the female ons there at any case. Misery porn is quite popular in that demographic.

Then come with a specific example about this title. Because from where I'm standing, it's clearly designed to appeal to young girls, as are all the other 7 titles I quoted, and on point to your point, one of the reasons is indeed the characters designs of the male characters in all of them, which the promotional material heavily emphasizees.



Surely you don't actually believe this kind of promotional material is designed to appeal to males, do you?

DigiCat said:

I've watched Redline, freaking awesome movie, definitely one of my favs :D
Still have to get to Dead Leaves, never heard about Hells, what it about?



Yes, it's licensed by shoujo beats 'cause it's profitable for them to do so, 'cause it became super popular among girls
Also why the anime poster has an aestetic more appealing to girls, compare to the manga covers, which although not in an egsagerated way, have more elements of a typical shonen romance cover

And if when the anime airs it does end up being a shoujo, it's also not unheard of that a shounen property gets a shoujo adaptation
A clear example of this is Code Geass, anime original which released as a shounen, later got adapted into a shoujo manga, the plot, the story, the characters, are still the same, but the style is slightly changed to appeal to a different audience
Battle scenes with Kallen in the anime are mostly shown from an angle that accentuate her boobs, in the manga she still looks like her, she still has the same tight fitting outfit, but she's not drawn in a way to make her look seductive
On the other hand, the manga which is shoujo, is drawn in a way that looks much more romanticized, with effects that make the characters look like they're glowing or sparkling, while the anime a shounen has a much more gritty style

It's also entirely possible that Romantic Killer, like other shounen popular with girls before it, will simply be adapted into a shounen
Things like Noragami and Black Butler didn't have to change themselves into shoujo when being adapted to anime, because they already appealed to girls just the way they are

betaweeb said:


no need to apologize for anything! i don't really remember a particularly negative comment by you, but in general i wasn't aiming to blame individuals and rather just made that point in the hopes of explaining some of my problems with the discussion on the topic, which i believe can be healthier and benefit from such improvements.

a kitchen princess adaptation could be great and would also be a much easier medium to point to, in order to get some of my friends that would probably be hard pressed to read the manga, to enjoy the series. another reason that i think it's a good idea, is the series' length, which means it could probably be adapted in like a two cour season and so it wouldn't need massive success to be green-lit for further seasons and then risk being in adaptation limbo like many other shows.

on the other hand, i don't think it's the series that would open the gates for other shoujo adaptations, since it does rely a bit on tropes and though i personally like cinnamon-bun can do protagonists and think tropes are fine as long as they are well executed, i don't know whether audiences would appreciate that identical looks sub plot, the manipulative queen of the class that eventually gets won over by najika and so on. though there's definitely potential to animate all the different dishes in a cool way and anime fans really seem to like tear-jerkers which kitchen princess becomes at some point, alongside being a great wholesome series.

yeah, crow black was very cordial in responding to that point, though to be honest i was more intending on how the really popular anitubers could use their influence for good for once, rather than just follow trends, but they might be inspired in turn by the ones you've mentioned.

and yeah, i'll probably read those at some point and it's more than likely they're there due to a thread like this one, but i don't think it's gonna be soon since prints of them don't seem to be out and about and i have a lot of manga "projects" at hand, though at some point for sure, thanks again!

Lucifrost said:
There may be fewer shoujo anime than in the past, but girls don't watch shoujo exclusively! With newer titles like Astra Lost in Space, Cute High Earth Defense Club, Vanitas, Norn9, Osomatsu, and Yuri On Ice, I don't believe the amount of anime that appeals to girls has changed.

The English manga market has always sucked. Shoujo are far from the only manga to go out of print after being improperly advertised.


That is because they are outnumbered by shounentards.

DreadfulControl said:
Idc if there will be more shoujo or not, romance is my least favourite genre after all and the majority of shoujo anime is romance and mahou shoujo which is really not my thing but one day I try Cardcaptor Sakura and Princess Tutu

logopolis said:
We need better shoujo anime. Its golden age was the late 90s and early 00s. Kodocha, Utena, KareKano, CCS, Furuba, Princess Tutu. All amongst the best anime ever made. But in the last 20 years, there's been nothing to compare. "Shoujo" nowadays seems to be synonymous with milquetoast romances and the occasional remake. The whole thing seems to have lost any confidence to even try to make the new best anime ever. Even stuff from that past era I don't think is quite as successful like Fushigi Yuugi or 12 Kingdoms, it is at least trying, aiming for that big scope. Shoujo anime nowadays is just timid. And it's unhealthy for the medium. One of the strengths of anime as a medium used to be that you got the deepest, darkest hopes and fears of both boys and girls in the same area, coming together and intermingling and producing alchemy. You don't get that any more.

DigiCat said:

Yes, it's licensed by shoujo beats 'cause it's profitable for them to do so, 'cause it became super popular among girls

Also why the anime poster has an aestetic more appealing to girls, compare to the manga covers, which although not in an egsagerated way, have more elements of a typical shonen romance cover

And if when the anime airs it does end up being a shoujo, it's also not unheard of that a shounen property gets a shoujo adaptation
A clear example of this is Code Geass, anime original which released as a shounen, later got adapted into a shoujo manga, the plot, the story, the characters, are still the same, but the style is slightly changed to appeal to a different audience

Battle scenes with Kallen in the anime are mostly shown from an angle that accentuate her boobs, in the manga she still looks like her, she still has the same tight fitting outfit, but she's not drawn in a way to make her look seductive
On the other hand, the manga which is shoujo, is drawn in a way that looks much more romanticized, with effects that make the characters look like they're glowing or sparkling, while the anime a shounen has a much more gritty style

It's also entirely possible that Romantic Killer, like other shounen popular with girls before it, will simply be adapted into a shounen
Things like Noragami and Black Butler didn't have to change themselves into shoujo when being adapted to anime, because they already appealed to girls just the way they are

petran79 said:
I think problem exists mainly in English countries where they have a bad history with shoujo series. Shojo roots in Europe, Asia, Arab countries, Latin America are much firmer.

petran79 said:


I see that even 7S themselves advertise it as part of a collection of romance for women, despite being labelled shojo. They do this intentionally of course as they surely know the definition of each term

Europe in the 80s-90s wasn't the best place either as some series were edited or removed from TV but they dropped that mentality for the most part.

DigiCat said:

Shounen romance have different humor, different filming angles, and different storytelling styles that distinguish them from shoujo romance
Yes they can be cute, yes girls can like them, but don't go calling them shoujo to then complain about them when a panty shot comes on screen, seriosly the amount of girls/women i've seen complain on this site saying stuff like "why does my shoujo anime have panties and boobs and fanservice made for the male gaze REEEEEEEEEE!!!" it's because you're not watching fucking shoujo

Nemo_Niemand said:
We need more manly anime about manly men. What we have now is almost nothing. Instead of gritty, stoic men we get prissy romcom protagonists, dull shounen/isekai self-insert mannequins, or moe shit with no male cast at all.
And you say we need more girls?
GIVE US MEN ALREADY.

petran79 said:

while the English distributors used the cartoon approach. Which is odd if you consider that soap opera became popular in the USA first.

They even licensed one of the flagship shojo series, the new Haikara San ga Tooru movies, yet they went under the radar.

FALprofessional said:
I only found "My Dress Up Darling" somewhat tolerable because of the fanservice, and that's a seinen. Also just as was mentioned in the video that was linked, some elements of shoujo are making their way into seinen/shounen work for broader appeal, such as Kaguya-sama. I love seinen, so get that shoujo shit out of my seinen works.

reginald11 said:
Yes, and you somehow believe this was some kind of accident rather than the obvious consequence of that both it was written to appeal to girls, and that the promotional material targeted girls. — It is truly a strange event that a harem with a female protagonist and male love interests which are all specifically designed to appeal to female taste finds itself popular with females.

Only insofar that they do not put all the males on one cover but spread them out, but the designs are the same.

Another thing that should be obvious is that the design of the female protagonist isn't made to appeal to males, or rather, not really designed as a target of sexual desire. The character is, frankly, a bit plain looking. Certainly not ugly, but not the kind of very moe either. Let us be honest the protagonist is a tier lower than the love interest sin attractiveness.

Code Geass never had any specific gender demographic when it first aired. What makes you think it did?

In any case, the character designs where handled by CLAMP and they do sort of look like “otome game” designs.

I can't confirm or dispute this. I don't know this title.

Black Butler was a “shoujo” from the start; that I can comment on.

Black Butler in particular highlights the problem with your philosophy that is common outside of Japan. It's published in GFantasy, a magazine that has never claimed to be “for boys” unlike W.S.J. which once claimed it and kept he name, but since disavowed that, has over 70% female readership, and there is absolutely no mention on Japanese Wikipedia of it being a “syounen" magazine, nor on it's website, and in fact Japanese Wikipedia says the magazine is known for it's phantasy and female-oriented titles.

Yet, on English Wikipedia, with no source to it it's said to be “shounen" even though every single Japanese book store will sell Black Butler and Hanako as “syouzyo” if they should make the distinction, yet in English language literature they're called “shounen" for some reason. Not by means of any primary source, certainly, but simply because someone in English once decided that GFantasy is what they call a “shounen” magazine, which it never claimed to be.

In any case, you didn't really challenge any of my arguments. You keep asserting that this title is what you call “shounen", and you also assert it of Black Butler for whatever reason.

You should start to consider that most of the information about what you call “shounen” and “shoujo” you get from English-language sources, written by people who can't speak Japanese and make things up, which, very fittingly, is also how the Japanese do it, they make it up, because for the most par these target deographics are something bookstores decide based on their own intuition, not, unlike what many people seem to think, that magazines have some kind of official registration somewhere what their target demographic is. The vast majority of Japanese magazines never claimed to be targeting any specific demographic, but in some cases they do, and in some cases it's obvious such as B's Log, but even with B's Log it's nowhere on it's website, though it's Instagram account does say it. It's simpy quite obvious from the titles they publish that they specialize in female-target video game-themed material.

In any case, Black Butler did not “happen to appeal” to girls; it was written with that audience in mind from the start and every Japanese book store sells it as “syouzyo”, or well, I take that back, because after checking cmoa sells it as “zyosei”, but all the others do as “syouzyo". — As I said, it's not something hard but something bookstores make up on the spot which is why it isn't even consistent.

Monochrosanity said:
We really do need more shoujo. So many people assume that shoujo has nothing to offer but cheesy teen love stories with no room for depth and variety. The few times a shoujo anime or manga gains traction the community treats it as an exception. The only way this stigma will change is if we get more adaptations so people can learn that shoujo has so much more to offer than they realise.

Memore said:
Unfortunately, there are not so many REALLY GOOD AND INTERESTING shoujo works. Of course, we need more titles in this genre. But, sadly, they suffer from cliche plot and generic characters: one girl fall in love with the guy and at the end they happy together.

Crow_Black said:



https://myanimelist.net/manga/448/Tenshi_Kinryouku
https://myanimelist.net/manga/635/God_Child
https://myanimelist.net/manga/975/Ludwig_Kakumei
https://myanimelist.net/manga/885/Hakushaku_Cain_Series
https://myanimelist.net/manga/9268/Guignol_Kyuutei_Gakudan
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1852/Yorugata_Aijin_Senmonten_Blood_Hound_DX
https://myanimelist.net/manga/64671/Kakei_no_Alice
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1867/0_no_Soukoushi
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1225/Kaine
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1059/Neji
https://myanimelist.net/manga/20842/Iiki_no_Ki
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1909/Zankoku_na_Douwatachi
https://myanimelist.net/manga/2723/Sareki_Oukoku
https://myanimelist.net/manga/122244/Rakuen_no_Bijo_to_Yajuu


Here you go, read these works and help spread the gospel of Kaori Yuki to help get these adapted.

Crow_Black said:



https://myanimelist.net/manga/448/Tenshi_Kinryouku
https://myanimelist.net/manga/635/God_Child
https://myanimelist.net/manga/975/Ludwig_Kakumei
https://myanimelist.net/manga/885/Hakushaku_Cain_Series
https://myanimelist.net/manga/9268/Guignol_Kyuutei_Gakudan
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1852/Yorugata_Aijin_Senmonten_Blood_Hound_DX
https://myanimelist.net/manga/64671/Kakei_no_Alice
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1867/0_no_Soukoushi
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1225/Kaine
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1059/Neji
https://myanimelist.net/manga/20842/Iiki_no_Ki
https://myanimelist.net/manga/1909/Zankoku_na_Douwatachi
https://myanimelist.net/manga/2723/Sareki_Oukoku
https://myanimelist.net/manga/122244/Rakuen_no_Bijo_to_Yajuu


Here you go, read these works and help spread the gospel of Kaori Yuki to help get these adapted.

Memore said:

Kaori Yuki is an exception. I mean majority of shoujo writers.

Crow_Black said:


Maki Kusimoto needs alot more love honestly real talk she's josei and her goth themed stories go hard af.

Memore said:

But you wrote about shojo, not josei genre.

Crow_Black said:


Same principle for me personally, if there's someone unusual be it in seinen,shoujo,josei or shounen and their works need more love i'll be pretty happy to showcase their works. Its just that i'm way too addicted for goth stuff for my own good lmao.