| I mean I heard that west has put a lot of effort and money into CGI and they are richer than Japan. Look at the budgets of those movies. Japan movies budget isn't even close. What's your take on it? |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| Not sure what take there is to have. Yes, western ovies have higher budgets and therefore their CGI stuff looks more polished. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Generally yes, but maybe Japan will catch up in the future. I didn't watch it yet, but the latest Lupin movie "The First" seems to come close. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
| Speaking strictly about movies, material outside the west often feels about a decade older in the realm of technical effects. |
| Well, there's always the outliers with the Final Fantasy CGI movies. |
 |
| Yes and no. The western movie industry pretty much figured out how to work with CGI while the Japanese movie industry still learning it. The important part is the >movie industry<. Video game cut scenes are also CGI movies and cut scenes in Japanese video games are consistently high quality without the issues CGI anime have. Also video games like Guilty Gear are also better at imitating 2D with CGI and it's something CGI anime often attempts and those are the biggest train wrecks. |
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| i think the biggest difficultly is making it fit in the artstyle, they could definately throw cutting edge video game cgi into anime but it would look very out of place. in fate zero when they early on fight that cgi darksouls looking shadow knight thing, that is very high fps well designed cgi. but it still feels a little out of place. when anime do try and make stuff fit sometimes it can just look cheap full cgi stuff like beastars seems to have it alright, it was a good anime but i personally would not like that be the direction anime takes overall. |
| No japanese series or film has ever come close to the hundred million dollar investments that are some pixar and disney films but they're doing pretty well with what they have. The captain harlock remake or the FFXV film and (for their time at least) all the other FF feature some nice looking tech. |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| Companies like disany and pixar can pour millions into there films and still turn a profit, anime just doesn't have that audience |
 _______I like rocks__  |
| Can you mention some of the western movies you're talking about? The Gantz 0 movie had pretty decent CGI. |
IKKIsama said: I have watched Gantz back in 2018. It looked cool to me but I am talking about big budgeted and specialized CGI movies. Like 4 years it took to animate frozen 2 with a budget of 150 million US dollars. In comparison, the budget of Dragon ball super broly was 8.5 million dollar and somewhat CGI they used was less good. Not to mention that how rich dragon ball franchise is and most of the movie was 2d.Can you mention some of the western movies you're talking about? The Gantz 0 movie had pretty decent CGI. Even traditional styled movies of west have a much bigger budgets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_animated_films Highest grossing films list is almost occupied by them too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_animated_films |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| If it's a TV one-cour-anime, it seems kind faded to be trash (despite for Beastars), but I never saw a japanese movie with shit CGI. |
| Is pointless to compare it. Western CGI animation and Japanese CGI animation have very different styles. Disney and Pixar have gone for cartoonish realism, were Japanese are trying to make CGI look as close to 2D animation as possible. I don't know how much budged plays into that... US usually does things very expensive... I mean an episode of Kimetsu no Yaiba probably required around 200 000 dollars for an episode. While if it was produced in the West, it would had cost anywere between 10 to maybe 20 million dollars per episode. I think is more about experience and tradition than budget. Also tools. Disney produced superior 2D animation into the 90's, compared to Japan. Aladdin, Lion King, Tarzan, Beauty and the Beast... those look amazing even by today's standards... I mean they hold up sucesfully even after +20 years, while 10 years is a noticible difference in quality when it comes to anime... $@#! Even Little Mermaid, when you see it, is hard to belive that one come up in 1989. While Japan was strugling to understand digital animation, and produced some poor quality in early 2000's, Disney was blowing our minds with Atlantis and Teasure Planet. Not only that but Disney mastered combining 2D animation with CGI decades before Japan managed to do anything pleasant. Tarzan is best example, of what Disney could do in 1999, while Japan, maybe except Studio Ghibli, was barely started to experiment with CGI, with poor results. Then Disney moved from 2D, to CGI, and over the years they mastered the shit out of it. There is no question that Disney and Pixar are the supreme masters of CGI animation, just as there is no question that today Japan mastered 2D animation beyond Disney and western animation. Anyway, is not only about budget... Is pretty easy for Disney and Pixar to master a craft, when they invest in their talents. Japan still pays it's animators at the same level it payed them 30 years ago, despise higher demands. And most of the industry keeps animators as freelancers, a shitty situation in which they end up making way bellow the minimal wage. Is a harsh reality, that makes lots of young animator leave the industry in 3 years, which lowers the talent poll, and makes it very hard for the anime industry to prepare new masters or veterans. Meanwhile in the West, animators are hired fulltime, they gather experince and evolve as a result. There is no wonder that even in Japan, the studio's that set the standard in quality or revolutionate animation are studio's with full-time in house staff, like KyoAni and Ufotable. Yet despise being a huge studio with superior budgets in comparation, A1 Pictures doesn't shine in any way. So budget is good, but what matters the most is in-house talets. Disney and Pixar has them, that why they shine at their craft. Now, if you talk about movies, and not animation... Well, you need to take once again the experience into consideration. Hollywood has a long history with CGI. But yes budget plays a huge role too. Is pretty easy to make something good, when you are ready to invest tens of millions of dollars in the effects. Yet technology and experience is why such CGI is possible to do in the West. Japan could do it cheaper probably, the problem is that Hollywood is advancing constantly, they invest and develop new ways to better every time. Meanwhile, Japanese are very slow when it comes to advancing. It took an earthquake and tsunami, to destroy the least VHS factory in the world, to make Japanese anime industry to stop airing anime episodes from VSH casetes... that was in 2011. And they would have still used that method today if it wasn't for the destruction of the factory, just because it worked and there was no point in updating their machines. And this is just one little example... We generally think about Japan as this high-tech society, when in reality they stopped procing anything revolutionary long time ago, and they still use the Fax machines regulary... Is 2020, and those peoples are still to discover emails. So they will simply keep the curent standard in CGI because it works. Meanwhile the West would come with new softs and machines every 4-5 years. |
 |
kronopy said: Is pointless to compare it. Western CGI animation and Japanese CGI animation have very different styles. Disney and Pixar have gone for cartoonish realism, were Japanese are trying to make CGI look as close to 2D animation as possible. I don't know how much budged plays into that... US usually does things very expensive... I mean an episode of Kimetsu no Yaiba probably required around 200 000 dollars for an episode. While if it was produced in the West, it would had cost anywere between 10 to maybe 20 million dollars per episode. I think is more about experience and tradition than budget. Also tools. Disney produced superior 2D animation into the 90's, compared to Japan. Aladdin, Lion King, Tarzan, Beauty and the Beast... those look amazing even by today's standards... I mean they hold up sucesfully even after +20 years, while 10 years is a noticible difference in quality when it comes to anime... $@#! Even Little Mermaid, when you see it, is hard to belive that one come up in 1989. While Japan was strugling to understand digital animation, and produced some poor quality in early 2000's, Disney was blowing our minds with Atlantis and Teasure Planet. Not only that but Disney mastered combining 2D animation with CGI decades before Japan managed to do anything pleasant. Tarzan is best example, of what Disney could do in 1999, while Japan, maybe except Studio Ghibli, was barely started to experiment with CGI, with poor results. Then Disney moved from 2D, to CGI, and over the years they mastered the shit out of it. There is no question that Disney and Pixar are the supreme masters of CGI animation, just as there is no question that today Japan mastered 2D animation beyond Disney and western animation. Anyway, is not only about budget... Is pretty easy for Disney and Pixar to master a craft, when they invest in their talents. Japan still pays it's animators at the same level it payed them 30 years ago, despise higher demands. And most of the industry keeps animators as freelancers, a shitty situation in which they end up making way bellow the minimal wage. Is a harsh reality, that makes lots of young animator leave the industry in 3 years, which lowers the talent poll, and makes it very hard for the anime industry to prepare new masters or veterans. Meanwhile in the West, animators are hired fulltime, they gather experince and evolve as a result. There is no wonder that even in Japan, the studio's that set the standard in quality or revolutionate animation are studio's with full-time in house staff, like KyoAni and Ufotable. Yet despise being a huge studio with superior budgets in comparation, A1 Pictures doesn't shine in any way. So budget is good, but what matters the most is in-house talets. Disney and Pixar has them, that why they shine at their craft. Now, if you talk about movies, and not animation... Well, you need to take once again the experience into consideration. Hollywood has a long history with CGI. But yes budget plays a huge role too. Is pretty easy to make something good, when you are ready to invest tens of millions of dollars in the effects. Yet technology and experience is why such CGI is possible to do in the West. Japan could do it cheaper probably, the problem is that Hollywood is advancing constantly, they invest and develop new ways to better every time. Meanwhile, Japanese are very slow when it comes to advancing. It took an earthquake and tsunami, to destroy the least VHS factory in the world, to make Japanese anime industry to stop airing anime episodes from VSH casetes... that was in 2011. And they would have still used that method today if it wasn't for the destruction of the factory, just because it worked and there was no point in updating their machines. And this is just one little example... We generally think about Japan as this high-tech society, when in reality they stopped procing anything revolutionary long time ago, and they still use the Fax machines regulary... Is 2020, and those peoples are still to discover emails. So they will simply keep the curent standard in CGI because it works. Meanwhile the West would come with new softs and machines every 4-5 years. Great essay tho⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
puneetsingh said: IKKIsama said: I have watched Gantz back in 2018. It looked cool to me but I am talking about big budgeted and specialized CGI movies. Like 4 years it took to animate frozen 2 with a budget of 150 million US dollars.Can you mention some of the western movies you're talking about? The Gantz 0 movie had pretty decent CGI. I don't consider Frozen (I haven't watched 2) to be better than Gantz 0. The art style doesn't appeal to me. Sure it's way more popular, it's a Disney movie. As far as western CGI movies go, I thought Tintin was the most impressive to date. |
IKKIsamaJun 8, 2020 10:58 AM
Lupin III: The First looks very much like Tintin, just check the trailer. |
| West does have better CGI but japanese hand drawn stuff still looks best. |
 |
| Seeing how the industry here is obsessed with CGI stuff, I'd say yes. |
 |
| well sometimes the west does not has the best gramar |
IKKIsama said: Actually Frozen 2 is the one which is said to better than the first.puneetsingh said: I have watched Gantz back in 2018. It looked cool to me but I am talking about big budgeted and specialized CGI movies. Like 4 years it took to animate frozen 2 with a budget of 150 million US dollars. I don't consider Frozen (I haven't watched 2) to be better than Gantz 0. The art style doesn't appeal to me. Sure it's way more popular, it's a Disney movie. As far as western CGI movies go, I thought Tintin was the most impressive to date. https://www.insider.com/how-disney-frozen-2-was-animated-2019-12 jc9622 said: Isn't Frozen 2 24 frame rate?Nefelupitou said: I don't know if they have the best CGI, or if they care more about CGI. I've watched lots of western animated movies and Beastars' CGI is better than the majority of them. And Beastars is a series with a lower budget, I guess. I'm sorry but Beastars' CGI doesn't even come close to Dreamworks, Disney and Pixar's animated movies. Their movies are MILES BETTER LOOKING than anything Japan will ever pump out and that includes Beastars. Beastars looks decent but it suffers from the exact same problem that's plaguing every other 3DCG anime out there and that's frame rate. I don't get why the anime industry is so reluctant on sticking with 24 frames per second on CGI anime. 2D Animation being 24 frames makes perfect sense but not in 3D. As long as these studios don't learn that 3D Animation needs to be AT LEAST 30 frames per sec then their CGI will NEVER looks good. Frozen 2 is the perfect example of what CGI should look like. deg said: Damn, you know many laws and now that's another law. Lol. You the Law man.yes in terms of money can buy but anime industry always work with limited lower budget so i say that is more impressive one of the highest budgeted 3D anime movie from Japan is Saint Seiya Legend of Sanctuary and it cost around $25 million compared to like the $90 million of Spiderman into the Spiderverse (and do note Spiderverse is suppose to be affected by Moores Law more too) Zehennagel said: But they have Johncena.well sometimes the west does not has the best gramar cythraul said: Yeah, in 2D it's debatable whereas for 3D west takes the cake easily.West does have better CGI but japanese hand drawn stuff still looks best. |
puneetsinghJun 10, 2020 4:39 AM
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| It is all about budget and the studio. Throw some decent money at a decent studio and you get decent CGI. Money starve or pick a bad studio and the CGI will suck. It is the same east to west. |
 |
| For the most part it’s miles ahead. |
 |
RockBadDog said: but now west is much more experienced in CGI. Isn't it?It is all about budget and the studio. Throw some decent money at a decent studio and you get decent CGI. Money starve or pick a bad studio and the CGI will suck. It is the same east to west. |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| Not really, but the average budget in the west is much bigger than in the east so the CGI is on average better. Also, anime, usually, go for much less fps than western shows and CGI gets a lot of mileage from fps. |
|
RockBadDog said: What's the FPS of anime in comparison to west?Not really, but the average budget in the west is much bigger than in the east so the CGI is on average better. Also, anime, usually, go for much less fps than western shows and CGI gets a lot of mileage from fps. |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| It varies for both, but most times in anime it is the least they can get away with, so 12, 8 or 6 sometimes with 24 used very rarely. In the west they stick to 30 and 24 most often. One thing I also forgot to mention is that the west has a well established school of 3D animation, mostly due to Disney and Pixar, while the east is still trying to figure out how to best use it. Also you will notice with CGI is that it is best fit for simple models, see toy story, and background, see Violet Evergarden. CGI art needs to be an adaption and not a recreation of the medial, Berserk is the best example as it tried to recreate the art style of the manga and failed while the 1997 version could literally copy images from the manga as it was 2D. |
|
| im more used to it in western animation so it doesnt throw me off as much. i like both styles of cgi tho |
 |
| The west has been experimenting with CGI since the 80s. Japan didn't start getting into CG until the late 90s. Of course the American stuff is going to look a lot better. |
| As people have said, I feel that west has had more time to develop their skills with CGI. Through failures, west has been able to slowly develop this art. One good example being Star Wars the Clone Wars. I feel the early episodes of the show were a bit clunky but as time went on, they were able to improve upon the looks of the show and develop other aspects to the series. Beastars is a really good advancement for Studio Orange considering they made CGI stuff. Beastars had moments where the scenes felt too still but at other times, the camera angles of the scenes were impressive. Such as when Legoshi was on the Stage for the play. Other times the CGI added emphasis that the punches had some emotion behind them. But what do I know. I have not gone to animation school and I sure have not had the time to develop a better understanding of animation. |
"Perfection is perception. For me, humanity's imperfections is what makes it perfect"  |
deg said: Zeroflamez said: The west has been experimenting with CGI since the 80s. Japan didn't start getting into CG until the late 90s. Of course the American stuff is going to look a lot better. japans anime industry does 3D animation as early as the 80s too (for Golgo 13 helicopter scene) source You're correct. I forgot about that. Still though, The West was a lot more liberal with their use of CG and were making full CG shows and films way before Japan did. It's why Japan is so behind when it comes to it and why shows like Vandread have such shitty CGI compared to Western shows that predate it like Beast Wars and Reboot |
| does anyone else struggle with determining what may or may not be CGI? I usually am able to tell when anime uses CGI when it just stands out or does not look like part of the environment. But at other times, a show may use CGI very well and I do not realize that CGI was involved in it. |
| "Perfection is perception. For me, humanity's imperfections is what makes it perfect" |
FireRifle64 said: I also have the same problem.It's really hard to differentiate CGI when it's good.Most of the background these days are CGI and I hardly recognise it.It's fate of CGI,good ones goes unnoticed and unpraised whereas the bad ones get flak.does anyone else struggle with determining what may or may not be CGI? I usually am able to tell when anime uses CGI when it just stands out or does not look like part of the environment. But at other times, a show may use CGI very well and I do not realize that CGI was involved in it. |
| Yes, they do and it isn't even close. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
deg said: Most expensive 3D animated movie is tangled whose budget is 260 M USD. That's more than 10 times the most(probably) expensive 3D anime movie of Japan.yes in terms of money can buy but anime industry always work with limited lower budget so i say that is more impressive one of the highest budgeted 3D anime movie from Japan is Saint Seiya Legend of Sanctuary and it cost around $25 million compared to like the $90 million of Spiderman into the Spiderverse (and do note Spiderverse is suppose to be affected by Moores Law more too) |
| Should I troll in the troll bait threads? It is kinda idiotic to be logical in the troll bait threads. Well, it will depend on my mood. |
| Obviously, west is far beyond in CGI levels kid. |
| "I think I wanted to attack something. Like betraying people or hurting people. And, well, it's not exactly nice, but hurting the readers too... In all honestly, I feel that's what I really wanted to do. For me, as a reader, when I think, "this manga will remain in my heart," it means, for example, it phenomenally hurt me: It's those kinds of experiences I'm after." - Pajime Hisayama (My favourite hurting author). |
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