| A show that needs building up or relies on tonal shifts are just exceptions to the rule and from the first episode alone, more often than not... you'll have a rough idea of what you'll get from a show. This also applies both for critical viewers and those who watch purely for enjoyment. Well, do you agree? or disagree? Also, I say this having over 30% of my dropped list being dropped in or after the 1st episode. Haha! |
ethotSep 26, 2016 1:53 AM
| No it's not and Steins;Gate is the biggest example for this.That's why there is a rule called "3 episode rule." You just can't expect to see plot with it's full glory by only watching one episode. |
| I disagree, there were enough occasions where the first episode or even the first few episodes were really great and then they took a completely different direction and get worse from then on. Most of the time this happens to shows which are just lighthearted fun in the beginning and then try to introduce some plot and ruin everything with lots of drama. |
| But many series do need buliding up and progression, if you take it to long-running stuff it's more evident that you are not going to be shown the entire potential of the story and characters, like how the first episode of One Piece cannot possibly make you acknowledge the variety and complexity of its worldbuilding. I also think that in many cases and not just long-running shows the characters and stories have to grow on the viewer to some extent. For example some slice of life shows are true to this to the point that getting used to the storytelling elements is key, and is what makes the emotional and comedic moments deliver. The problem with your assumption here is that it takes for granted that a show will offer you everything it has in the first episode, and I'd say it rarely happens, and much less on stuff that has a minimal sense of continuity. |
| Not really, there have been cases that the last few episodes of an anime tip my score drastically. Especially the last episode. The overall product is what matters though. I never really like most first episodes but I end up loving the series as a whole despite that. |
| no , there is some anime that have a first good episode and in the end i regretted watching them |
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| fck off Digi I think too many good shows have bad 1st episodes to call that method effective. This might be more often applicable to episodical shows, but even they often change the tone(so you would have to account for that) |
SpaghettiSpikeSep 26, 2016 1:50 AM
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
| Was my old standard before switching it to three Worked out way better for me in the end |
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| i'll go as far as to say the mal profile page is an equally good indicator |
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| No, not really. In fact there are even a lot of anime that don't really pick up until later. Even the entire 12 episode first season of Yama no Susume may seem like a fairly generic and dull moe anime and it doesn't pick up until a couple episodes into the second season (you may as well count the first season as one episode since it's only 36 minutes, but it still only really serves to introduce the characters and doesn't do much in the way of plot development). Grisaia has a harem first season and a psychological military second season and Railgun has a fairly CGDCT first season and more action and story based second season. If someone dropped one of my favourites after the first episode simply because it's an anime that takes some time to get into the story then I'll tell them to give it another shot. Full Moon is basically an idol anime for the first 36 episodes and after that it's much darker and more dramatic. If someone wasn't liking the idol part then they probably won't like the anime as a whole after finishing it, but someone who dropped Gakkougurashi after the first episode thinking it was just another moeblob anime needs to rethink how they drop anime. I'm not going to say the first episode rule doesn't work, it probably does work for a good 30-40% of anime, but I don't think that's enough to believe not liking the first episode automatically means you won't like the anime. I didn't like the first three episodes of Aikatsu but now it's on my favourites (it's 178 episodes long so that's not a big percentage of it). For the rare <1% of anime that are so homogeneous that watching 1 episode out of 12 would literally be the same as having one piece of cake out of 12 then yes, one episode would be enough, but if it's really the same throughout then even if you liked it at first you may still be disappointed. I enjoyed the first episode of Glasslip but the fact that you could practically use a randomizer to determine your watch order without impacting the story demeans the point of even calling the first episode a "pilot". It's almost like the first episode is a train station and you want to take the train and for it to get somewhere, but by the next episode you realize that the train is still in the station. If the train isn't going in the direction you want it to then you can get off before you're too far away from your destination, but if it's moving and you don't know where it's going yet then I think it's too early to get off. If it isn't moving and that doesn't satisfy you then you can feel free to get off anytime. TL;DR: No. I didn't realize how big my wall of text was going to be. |
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Dishonest said: fck off Digi I think too many good shows have bad 1st episodes to call that method effective. This might be more often applicable to episodical shows, but even they often change the tone(so you would have to account for that) Well, episodic shows is a given(also comedy shows that aren't episodic). But, even plot heavy shows can fall to this.... the first episode will tell you what the premise is and more importantly how it will be handled throughout the show. The first episode will often than not set the standard for the whole series. As for shows that need buildup, how the first episode is handled will still set the standard for the whole show. Not to mention, it's the first episode that will tell you that a show needs buildup. |
| I mean, first of all you can't really call it a rule if there are a vast array of exceptions. As for how I feel about the idea I would never trust judgement of an entire series based on solely the first episode. Even you're talking like strictly art quality then it would be even less of an indicator because some series go all out in the first couple episodes to pull people in. I would say it's about the same level of an indicator as the synopsis, in that it can be flat out incorrect. |
| no it's not. that was never the case and will never be. -You can definitely see tendencies for things like animation quality, music, cast quality, that kind of things. Usually those things are either consistent during the show or downgrading as the shows goes on, not upgrading. -For the quality of characters, plot, you cannot see a thing. Not. a damn. thing. Not a single one. So if that's what matter to you, you cannot judge anything from the first episode. Not even that much in fact, by 3 episodes as well. -For the quality of script and storyboard, that kind of things isn't handled by the same persons during a whole show so the bad quality of one episode doesn't necessarily transmit to the following ones, so useless as well. This is because of that kind of shitty belief/behaviour in the anime/manga community that shows and manga try desperately to attract /catch the viewever attention in one chapter/Episode, resulting in breaking the narration structure, in premises of a story that the author cannot even handle afterwards (so all that was interesting happened in the first part, basically, after that nothing interesting to see) and that in reverse authors who still choose to build their story properly and steadily don't sell and don't go until their end, effectively resulting in half assed endings. Thanks a lot, seriously. That's one reason for which novel >>> anime. Novels are sold with the whole volume so the authors have plenty of time to catch the reader's attention in 300-1000 pages. SO they never had to lower themselves to the crappy methods the anime medium use in order to sell. |
ZefyrisSep 26, 2016 2:28 AM
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| Judging a series by the first episode alone? Why do people like that exist? No matter the length of the series - be it 12 episodes or more than 100 episodes - judging a series as a whole on the first episode is a major misjudgment as too many shows have a slow build-up that require a steady progression to achieve a satisfying result that makes it all worth the while of waiting it out through episodes that would've been a struggle to sit through. Everyone's familiar on how not judging shows by the first episode applies to big name thrillers such as Steins;Gate and Madoka Magica and look how they turned out. |
  "ππππ ππ πππ‘ ππππππ πππ ππππππ πππππ." β π°ππππ π»πππ β β π
π½π³π β β π±ππππππππππ’ β |
| I think you can often tell a show is not gonna work for you with a reasonable degree of certainty but anything that's not instantly drop worthy probably deserves a bit of time. I mean I dropped 2 of my favourites early on and came back to give them extra goes much later Also you have to be careful of mood being a factor. I personally advise a 3 episode in at least 2 different sessions for anything you might have an interest in |
Zefyris said: -For the quality of script and storyboard, that kind of things isn't handled by the same persons during a whole show so the bad quality of one episode doesn't necessarily transmit to the following ones, so useless as well. Even if the guys working on it is different.... there's still an idea holding it together and the first episode is still the introduction to that idea. A bad introduction will have a snowball effect. |
OmegaOtaku said: Judging a series by the first episode alone? Why do people like that exist? No matter the length of the series - be it 12 episodes or more than 100 episodes - judging a series as a whole on the first episode is a major misjudgment as too many shows have a slow build-up that require a steady progression to achieve a satisfying result that makes it all worth the while of waiting it out through episodes that would've been a struggle to sit through. Everyone's familiar on how not judging shows by the first episode applies to big name thrillers such as Steins;Gate and Madoka Magica and look how they turned out. Its not about judging on a the performance of a single episode but rather about judging potential. I don't personally know anyone who dropped either of these after 1 episode though they probably do exist but take mahou shoujo naria girls. Did you give it 3 episodes. So where is the cut off point for instant dropping? |
CapitalistGod said: Zefyris said: -For the quality of script and storyboard, that kind of things isn't handled by the same persons during a whole show so the bad quality of one episode doesn't necessarily transmit to the following ones, so useless as well. Even if the guys working on it is different.... there's still an idea holding it together and the first episode is still the introduction to that idea. A bad introduction will have a snowball effect. no. Script and storyboard do not belong to the original author. what matters on that point in case of adaptation (which makes for most of the anime nowadays) is the original material (ie, plot, character development, and so on), not the script and storyboard. Awkward adaptation due to poor script and storyboard in the first episodes do not indicate anything on the long run since those peoples are changing regularly. And you cannot see the plot or character development in one episode, IE, you cannot say anything. there is no snowball effect. That would be problems in the original plot for example, but you cannot see that in one episode. |
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ScarletSentry said: this tbh fam and also @OmegaOtaku OmegaOtaku said: Judging a series by the first episode alone? Why do people like that exist? No matter the length of the series - be it 12 episodes or more than 100 episodes - judging a series as a whole on the first episode is a major misjudgment as too many shows have a slow build-up that require a steady progression to achieve a satisfying result that makes it all worth the while of waiting it out through episodes that would've been a struggle to sit through. Everyone's familiar on how not judging shows by the first episode applies to big name thrillers such as Steins;Gate and Madoka Magica and look how they turned out. Its not about judging on a the performance of a single episode but rather about judging potential. I don't personally know anyone who dropped either of these after 1 episode though they probably do exist but take mahou shoujo naria girls. Did you give it 3 episodes. So where is the cut off point for instant dropping? everyone knows about steins gate and meguca meduka being le objectively good shows they are , but when approaching shows under the #1000 popularity belt more care should be had |
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ScarletSentry said: OmegaOtaku said: Judging a series by the first episode alone? Why do people like that exist? No matter the length of the series - be it 12 episodes or more than 100 episodes - judging a series as a whole on the first episode is a major misjudgment as too many shows have a slow build-up that require a steady progression to achieve a satisfying result that makes it all worth the while of waiting it out through episodes that would've been a struggle to sit through. Everyone's familiar on how not judging shows by the first episode applies to big name thrillers such as Steins;Gate and Madoka Magica and look how they turned out. Its not about judging on a the performance of a single episode but rather about judging potential. I don't personally know anyone who dropped either of these after 1 episode though they probably do exist but take mahou shoujo naria girls. Did you give it 3 episodes. So where is the cut off point for instant dropping? Cf what I said above. Judging potential is part of what brought anime in its current sorry state. Trying to catch the attention of watchers by the first episode at all cost or dying is the most stupid situation ever. You'll get to watch stuff that looked interesting at first and will go nowhere interesting afterwards, whereas shows that did not do that will get ignored despite building into something good. |
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| I do agree, the first episode can tell you the pace, the artwork and the characters of a show. Therefore, instead of the three episode rule, I use the one episode rule. |
Zefyris said: CapitalistGod said: Even if the guys working on it is different.... there's still an idea holding it together and the first episode is still the introduction to that idea. A bad introduction will have a snowball effect. no. Script and storyboard do not belong to the original author. what matters on that point in case of adaptation (which makes for most of the anime nowadays) is the original material (ie, plot, character development, and so on), not the script and storyboard. Awkward adaptation due to poor script and storyboard in the first episodes do not indicate anything on the long run since those peoples are changing regularly. And you cannot see the plot or character development in one episode, IE, you cannot say anything. there is no snowball effect. That would be problems in the original plot for example, but you cannot see that in one episode. There's a lot of things you can tell from the first episode alone..... You can generally see what the show is(its premise), what it's going for(if it's a slow burn, if it requires buildup etc. etc.) and how it will be presented from now on.... A plot heavy story relies on continuation.... the different guys who will handle the next episode will build on the previous episode and it all starts with that introductory episode. So, yes.... you can generally tell really. |
Zefyris said: I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by potential. I dislike most pilots as episodes but will consider most functional since they give you an overall sense of what type of characters you will get etc. The problem is when you see something instantly That you know will probably be repeated.ScarletSentry said: Its not about judging on a the performance of a single episode but rather about judging potential. I don't personally know anyone who dropped either of these after 1 episode though they probably do exist but take mahou shoujo naria girls. Did you give it 3 episodes. So where is the cut off point for instant dropping? Cf what I said above. Judging potential is part of what brought anime in its current sorry state. Trying to catch the attention of watchers by the first episode at all cost or dying is the most stupid situation ever. You'll get to watch stuff that looked interesting at first and will go nowhere interesting afterwards, whereas shows that did not do that will get ignored despite building into something good. My favourite example of recent times. Erased. I didn't drop it because I really liked the premise and it was rated high (I joined a few weeks in) but in the pilot . Now you could dismiss this as a one off but its a red flag for a show that relies completely on the cohesion of its story and sure enough there was plenty of similar stuff later. If this is a comedy or a romance it's different but you can guess if a show is being That silly in its pilot its not going to end well Lemme rephrase so. I will dismiss shows on the first episode IF they have shown me a propensity to fail. I wont dismiss something that doesn't catch my attention after 1 episode. |
| For me, 1 episode is a pretty good indicator. Unless a show does a genre shift or something like that, of course. But that's because I don't care about worldbuilding quality, plot quality, writing quality all that much when choosing an anime to watch. I can judge them later, when I've finished watching or ragequit. The first episode shows three most important parts: genre, mood, and art. If they fit me, I know the anime is watchable. If they are unusual or I am not sure, I will give the show a few more episodes. If I don't like a show from the start, it doesn't matter if it does a genre shift later - it was meant for people very much unlike me from the start. |
| If it has exceptions, it's a shitty rule lel. Plenty of shows start shit and improve later, or start good, but fall off (Simple minds tend to only see one side of this, I see). Of course, if the first episode is shit, that does disqualify the entire show from being good, but no, that's not a good indicator of its overall quality. |
MortalMelancholySep 26, 2016 2:56 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
CapitalistGod said: Zefyris said: no. Script and storyboard do not belong to the original author. what matters on that point in case of adaptation (which makes for most of the anime nowadays) is the original material (ie, plot, character development, and so on), not the script and storyboard. Awkward adaptation due to poor script and storyboard in the first episodes do not indicate anything on the long run since those peoples are changing regularly. And you cannot see the plot or character development in one episode, IE, you cannot say anything. there is no snowball effect. That would be problems in the original plot for example, but you cannot see that in one episode. There's a lot of things you can tell from the first episode alone..... You can generally see what the show is(its premise), what it's going for(if it's a slow burn, if it requires buildup etc. etc.) and how it will be presented from now on.... A plot heavy story relies on continuation.... the different guys who will handle the next episode will build on the previous episode and it all starts with that introductory episode. So, yes.... you can generally tell really. No again. What matters for the continuity is the quality of the original material. Stuff like script and storyboard can even be partially fixed in the BD release, that shows how much it's irrelevant to judge anything coming afterwards. You can't always tell what the shows is going for nor its whole premise. It's usually easier if it's a manga adaptation since manga often suffers from the same stupid disease as anime on that point, but for novel adaptations? Not going to happen that much except for really straight forward stories. |
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| I will say it would be a good indicator for whether a show worth keep watching or not. Overall quality could only be summarized after going through all of episodes and take every possible value into consideration. There may be lot of unexpected events happening at the last part of anime. |
 Tobacco Causes Severe Health Problems, Smoke Moderately While Respecting Others. |
| It's true. Usually you'll know the characters, the premise/setting, the general feel/atmosphere/genre and the overall level of visual quality after the first episode, giving you more than enough to go on to decide whether you think the show has any chance of ever appealing to you or not. Pilot episodes usually have more effort put into them than later episodes so they set the expetations. Naturally there are exceptions but most of the time those exceptions are exempt from the 3 episode rule as well (take Gintama for example). 95% of the time nothing significantly changes between the first and the third episode, at least in the few shows I have seen. So more often than not I don't see a difference between dropping a show after 1 episode or 3 episodes. Some popular examples won't change that general rule. But what's also true is that most of the things you will know about a show after the first episode you can already have a grasp of before you start the show. Sometimes synopsis and trailers and cover art are misleading but most of the time the first episode will not surprise me based on what I knew about the show beforehand. It might be slightly better or worse than expected but in general I'm pretty accurate in knowing what shows I want to pick up. That's why, despite what I said above, I almost never drop shows early on and have a very low drop percentage overall. Most of the times when I see people drop a show that early it feels like even I could have told them beforehand that they won't like the show just based on their taste so I have to wonder how they managed to not pick up on it. Or at the very least it feels like they weren't ever seriously interested in the show anyway, dropping it for flimsy reasons because there was nothing drawing them to the show in the first place. Like checking out every single seasonal just for the sake of it when it's crystal clear for most of them that they won't like them. I know people who pick up and immediately drop the same cgdct shows every season for years now, for example. I'll withhold my judgment on how intelligent and efficient I find that method. Also others, with less experience, may have a harder time judging the potential of a show in relation to their own expectations and preferences. I definitely wasn't able to do so right from the start. But by now I'm fairly confident in my early judgments. I also know I tend to be too optimistic and always see the 'best' potential there might be, and most shows don't quite get there, but that makes me even more confident in dropping a show early when I don't manage to see any potential. It's a lot easier to call a shit show after 1 episode than to call an amazing show, at least for me. Lots of shows drop in quality or just don't live up to their maximum potential that I see early on. But that's really what matters, isn't it? I want to know if I can safely drop a show early on without missing out on something amazing, if I don't feel like that I'll continue anyway, if the show ends up disappointing in the second half, that's that. What I find funny is that in this thread people apparently think episodic shows are among the easiest to judge early on? That's some bullshit if I've ever heard it. Those type of shows much less than others let you predict what future episodes will be about since every episode is a standalone, sometimes with different characters etc... |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| yes there is no reason to watch garbage like kill la kill or space dandy after episode 1 |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
Don't worry we question our own intelligences so you don't have too. I repeatedly read premises and say oh maybe this one wont be the usual such and such only to be disappointed again (usually comedy and "romance".) Do you think pvs and trailers are safe though. I find they often give away plot points or make several of the tense scenes more predictable but that's just my view. |
CapitalistGod said: A show that needs building up or relies on tonal shifts are just exceptions to the rule and from the first episode alone, more often than not... you'll have a rough idea of what you'll get from a show. This also applies both for critical viewers and those who watch purely for enjoyment. Well, do you agree? or disagree? Also, I say this having over 30% of my dropped list being dropped in or after the 1st episode. Haha! I'll watch the anime as a whole before making my judgement I don't drop anime unless I already now how it will end (e.g. Naruto Manga) :3 btw. Hi Capi-kun, how you been? ;3 |
"No matter what painful things happens, even when it looks like you'll lose... when no one else in the world believes in you... when you don't even believe in yourself... I will believe in you!" |
ScarletSentry said: Don't worry we question our own intelligences so you don't have too. I repeatedly read premises and say oh maybe this one wont be the usual such and such only to be disappointed again (usually comedy and "romance".) Do you think pvs and trailers are safe though. I find they often give away plot points or make several of the tense scenes more predictable but that's just my view. tbh I almost never watch PVs but I think they can at least give a more accurate picture of the visuals than the cover art usually does. But since I never drop or pick up shows based on visuals or designs only they're not important to me. But in my experience they are not like trailers for western movies where literally 90% of the movie is spoilered. Not to the least because they are usually unsubbed and I can't understand what is being said anyway ^^. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: bbbut this one will deffo be the next lucky star/non non byori/gochiusaI know people who pick up and immediately drop the same cgdct shows every season for years now, for example. |
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Pullman said: Naturally there are exceptions but most of the time those exceptions are exempt from the 3 episode rule as well (take Gintama for example). 95% of the time nothing significantly changes between the first and the third episode, at least in the few shows I have seen. Indeed. I don't remember many shows which undergo a genre shift in their first three episodes. Some reveal their true genre in the end of episode 1 (like Gakkougurashi), and might need episode 2 to know their real feel. But what's the third episode for? Pullman said: But what's also true is that most of the things you will know about a show after the first episode you can already have a grasp of before you start the show. Sometimes synopsis and trailers and cover art are misleading but most of the time the first episode will not surprise me based on what I knew about the show beforehand. It might be slightly better or worse than expected but in general I'm pretty accurate in knowing what shows I want to pick up. That's why, despite what I said above, I almost never drop shows early on and have a very low drop percentage overall. Most of the times when I see people drop a show that early it feels like even I could have told them beforehand that they won't like the show just based on their taste so I have to wonder how they managed to not pick up on it. Or at the very least it feels like they weren't ever seriously interested in the show anyway, dropping it for flimsy reasons because there was nothing drawing them to the show in the first place. Like checking out every single seasonal just for the sake of it when it's crystal clear for most of them that they won't like them. I know people who pick up and immediately drop the same cgdct shows every season for years now, for example. I'll withhold my judgment on how intelligent and efficient I find that method. 1) Some anime just have bad descriptions. Especially the anime that have not aired yet. I can't tell what they are like just from the description and (insufficient) tags. 2) Generally, tags don't describe the mood/atmosphere of the show. And the synopsis is not always indicative of that either. To me, mood of the show is very important. 3) As I have seen a lot of anime, I tend to go after the ones I do not understand, on the chance they'll be something unusual, and good in their unusualness. It doesn't always work out. |
Pullman said: What I find funny is that in this thread people apparently think episodic shows are among the easiest to judge early on? That's some bullshit if I've ever heard it. Those type of shows much less than others let you predict what future episodes will be about since every episode is a standalone, sometimes with different characters etc... The thing is, standalone as they are, they often follow a common formula, the details of which can be clear from the very first episode in some cases. I mean, if you can predict what future episodes will be about in shows with continuity, then what can't you do in shows that work as iterations of the same core ideas? |
jal90 said: Pullman said: What I find funny is that in this thread people apparently think episodic shows are among the easiest to judge early on? That's some bullshit if I've ever heard it. Those type of shows much less than others let you predict what future episodes will be about since every episode is a standalone, sometimes with different characters etc... The thing is, standalone as they are, they often follow a common formula, the details of which can be clear from the very first episode in some cases. I mean, if you can predict what future episodes will be about in shows with continuity, then what can't you do in shows that work as iterations of the same core ideas? Idk, that's like saying you can watch one standalone romantic comedy movie and predict the quality of 11 other standalone romantic comedy movies based on that one movie. Which to me makes a lot less sense than being able to have accurate expectations for one particular movie and its continuous storyline after the first 10-20 minutes. And that doesn't even take into account that episodic shows can have very varying genres between their individual episodes so they can have even less in common than a bunch of different standalone movies of the same genre. The other thing is that for me, and I think a lot of people, characters are what really make or break a show in terms of enjoyment and episodic shows can swap out their whole cast every single episode in some cases, or in others swap out every character except for the main. Not enjoying the character interactions and support cast of one episode doesn't have to mean anything for the next episode. Also, again, what you call the common formula is usually what the synopsis will tell you about so you don't even need to watch the first episode if that basic premise of the show is not to your liking. Mind you, I'm talking mostly about real episodic shows, not just shows that don't have a main plot but generally the same, growing cast and no complete resets between each episode. Those shows often get grouped together but I don't consider most random slice of life shows episodic just because there is no strict continuity and plot. I'm talking about stuff like Human Crossing, Mushishi, Master Keaton and the likes. Where you can literally watch every episode on their own without feeling any difference. And I'm not saying you can't make any judgments or set expectations with episodic shows, just to a much lesser degree than with other types of shows. At least that's true for me. I can count the times I've been completely wrong about how a show would turn out after the first episode on one hand but with truly episodic shows there are always a wide range of episodes and even the worse shows will have some episodes that stood out to me. And it's not about predicting specific plot developments, but the overall kind of plot we will see, which tropes are likely to show up, which character archetypes, the frequency of crazy twists etc... If you can predict that for a dozen unrelated episodes after watching the first standalone episode just as well as you can do it for a dozen continuous episodes after you got to know the setting, cast, basic plot and other elements that lay the foundation for the rest of the show, then I tip my hat to you. I just know I can't. There just is LESS to predict overall when you don't have any plot or even support character continuity. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Nope. There are lots of anime that started off real good but ended up disappointing. |
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aqing0601 said: I do agree, the first episode can tell you the pace, the artwork and the characters of a show. Therefore, instead of the three episode rule, I use the one episode rule. I imagine this stops you from watching a lot of good animes then... |
| "You can't spell slaughter without laughter". |
| I agree strongly. Whenever I've given a show more than one episode my opinion of it hasn't changed a bit. Hell, for example Madoka Magica is a series famous for "cheating" the audience with its moe but the show builds up a dark atmosphere from the first episode, you can see it coming before all the drama begins. I guess the only exception is JoJo's since it has its hits and misses from saga to saga (I didn't like PB or SC that much but loved DiU and BT). |
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| Is Steins;Gate really seen as a good counterexample for this? I knew from ep 1 on that I'd enjoy the show a lot (well even before that because it's about time travel and I always enjoy that kind of stuff, but that's a different story). Okabe was just immensely entertaining and I loved his character from the start and he remained the main reason for why I loved the show throughout all the episodes. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
HueyLion said: well uh feel free to jump to conclusion from his dropped listaqing0601 said: I do agree, the first episode can tell you the pace, the artwork and the characters of a show. Therefore, instead of the three episode rule, I use the one episode rule. I imagine this stops you from watching a lot of good animes then... https://myanimelist.net/animelist/aqing0601?status=4 |
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romagia said: well uh feel free to jump to conclusion from his dropped list https://myanimelist.net/animelist/aqing0601?status=4 dropping the vastly superior S2 of AssClass definitely supports his argument. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: jal90 said: The thing is, standalone as they are, they often follow a common formula, the details of which can be clear from the very first episode in some cases. I mean, if you can predict what future episodes will be about in shows with continuity, then what can't you do in shows that work as iterations of the same core ideas? Idk, that's like saying you can watch one standalone romantic comedy movie and predict the quality of 11 other standalone romantic comedy movies based on that one movie. Which to me makes a lot less sense than being able to have accurate expectations for one particular movie and its continuous storyline after the first 10-20 minutes. And that doesn't even take into account that episodic shows can have very varying genres between their individual episodes so they can have even less in common than a bunch of different standalone movies of the same genre. However if all it is about is predictability and expectations, it is reasonable to rely on your expectations when a show follows a clear formula, just as much (more, maybe?) than through a continuous storyline. At least a continuous storyline can offer twists and changes of focus halfway through. Of course, lots of episodic shows are not that static, but the point is, if you can infer the overall quality of a continuous storyline, you should be able to do the same with a show you expect to be stuck on a repetitive formula. I don't say it's accurate, it's nothing more or less than an indicator. Pullman said: The other thing is that for me, and I think a lot of people, characters are what really make or break a show in terms of enjoyment and episodic shows can swap out their whole cast every single episode in some cases, or in others swap out every character except for the main. Not enjoying the character interactions and support cast of one episode doesn't have to mean anything for the next episode. It depends. Some episodic shows are very focused on a few character interactions, while some try to focus on one or two on each episode. Some have a very informative first episode that sets every character's perspective, some introduce new characters constantly. It's hard to make the same case for all of them. Pullman said: Also, again, what you call the common formula is usually what the synopsis will tell you about so you don't even need to watch the first episode if that basic premise of the show is not to your liking. Yes and no. I mean, the synopsis/premise is limited information in comparison with an actual experience. It tells you what the series is about but not how it is, the overall execution of the elements. You need to watch at least an episode for that. Pullman said: Mind you, I'm talking mostly about real episodic shows, not just shows that don't have a main plot but generally the same, growing cast and no complete resets between each episode. Those shows often get grouped together but I don't consider most random slice of life shows episodic just because there is no strict continuity and plot. I'm talking about stuff like Human Crossing, Mushishi, Master Keaton and the likes. Where you can literally watch every episode on their own without feeling any difference. It's funny, because Mushishi would be an example I'd make about an anime with a first episode that is a great indicator of overall quality, and this has remained true for me due to the homogeneous level of quality the series has. The thing is, with that first episode alone you know how the tone is set, you know what to expect, what kind of mood the show looks for, how it deals with narrative and emotions, how it uses art and animation... I think it's a very blatant example of a show that sells everything it has to in its first episode, and from then on you can decide if what it offers is for you or not. Pullman said: And I'm not saying you can't make any judgments or set expectations with episodic shows, just to a much lesser degree than with other types of shows. At least that's true for me. I can count the times I've been completely wrong about how a show would turn out after the first episode on one hand but with truly episodic shows there are always a wide range of episodes and even the worse shows will have some episodes that stood out to me. And it's not about predicting specific plot developments, but the overall kind of plot we will see, which tropes are likely to show up, which character archetypes, the frequency of crazy twists etc... If you can predict that for a dozen unrelated episodes after watching the first standalone episode just as well as you can do it for a dozen continuous episodes after you got to know the setting, cast, basic plot and other elements that lay the foundation for the rest of the show, then I tip my hat to you. I just know I can't. There just is LESS to predict overall when you don't have any plot or even support character continuity. But why are continuous storylines more predictable compared with episodic shows? I'm not taking specifics here, of course lots, most maybe, episodic series are unpredictable and they keep bringing fresh stuff. However I find it strange that you assume there will be a huge degree of variety and dynamism in these shows and yet assume as well that a continuous story can offer everything it has to in terms of intricacies, focus and development from the first episode alone; even if there is foreshadowing it is limited, even if there is character focus it's not enough, and etc. |
| No, just no. Many shows gets better after the first episode. Some even take a dozens or so but its the end result that matters. |
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