when it comes to unnatural deaths what is more needed "thoughts and prayers" or "preventive measures"
| so anyone may have heard the KyoAni arson crime that currently have a death toll of 22 and just like with the frequent gun violence news i do not feel much about "thoughts and prayers" (and im sure gonna burn to hell (if there is one) for making some dark humor and laughing at some of what i read on 4chan) i rather focus on preventive measures so thats why im curious about the motives of the criminal but im sure it will be different for me if its like director Imaishi (im a big fan) that die like this that i will make "thoughts and prayers" and wanting preventive measures at the same time and ye i think this will be the default reply here but we know there are more tragic deaths happening around the world like in poor countries like Africa everyday with constant war and terrorism for example so keep in mind there are more (unnatural) deaths happening everyday that are not close to your heart/kokoro so with that what reaction is more needed? i will go with preventive measures but how about you? |
| Both are important but preventive measures are more useful . Take US for example if they would only ban guns like in other civilized countries violence and school shootings would drop but they won't do it cause muh 2nd amendment. I don't really know the reason why would anyone want to burn kyotoani but I bet it was some angry otaku. So the solution would be to combat the toxic otaku culture. |
  Never explain, Never retract, Never apologize Just get the thing done And let them howl |
| @AnimeFeminist if its indeed some angry otaku i can already see the headlines demonizing anime again |
| Preventive measures are good, but they are usually not cost-efficient or even sensible. If you ban guns, and the person who wanted, say, shoot up a school, he may not procure a gun as easily, but the killing intent is there. Apply this to every other possible crime and we have to either: Ban all weaponized equipment, kill all the criminals before they become criminals, and then everything would be 'prevented'. On the other more real side of the coin, you can use education to prevent such crimes from happening. If you dissuade the person from the intention, then the crime won't happen either way. |
| Thoughts and prayers are just sayings used by idiots that don't want to do anything about the problem. It is especially a US problem. Other countries sort it out, especially if guns are involved. |
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| lol i just notice my grammar mistakes and worse i call Africa a country like a lot of people does welp i will not edit them |
deg said: @Yarub ye i say education is also a (loose) kind of preventive meassure but that reminds me of terrorists like the ISIS they are lots of educated members of it but they are unemployed so they need more jobs i guess ISIS condemns and rejects all signs of modern civilization. While they may seem to employ 'educated' individuals, but are they really educated if they stand by the ideals that destroying civilizations, rather than furthering it is the right way? No, they are not educated. Least of all educated of Islam and religion. |
| Basically both which happens as part of restorative justive. Which in short is to try to make things better for victims (which includes their families and friends), communities, and even for those responsible. This involves trying to heal what happened best as possible as well as prevent future problems from happening. |
| @traed Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which the response to a crime is to organize a meeting between the victim and the offender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice damn i do not know about that since i can imagine that forgiveness is very hard to impossible for a lot of victims of killing their love ones but ye there might be some exception since there are stuff like stockholm syndrome too or some are just naturally forgiving |
Yarub said: Preventive measures are good, but they are usually not cost-efficient or even sensible. If you ban guns, and the person who wanted, say, shoot up a school, he may not procure a gun as easily, but the killing intent is there. Apply this to every other possible crime and we have to either: Ban all weaponized equipment, kill all the criminals before they become criminals, and then everything would be 'prevented'. On the other more real side of the coin, you can use education to prevent such crimes from happening. If you dissuade the person from the intention, then the crime won't happen either way. I see your point, but if a madman with a gun had no access to that gun, it would make killing a lot harder. Instead of 10 victims, you might have like, 2, before he's stopped. |
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Yarub said: deg said: @Yarub ye i say education is also a (loose) kind of preventive meassure but that reminds me of terrorists like the ISIS they are lots of educated members of it but they are unemployed so they need more jobs i guess ISIS condemns and rejects all signs of modern civilization. While they may seem to employ 'educated' individuals, but are they really educated if they stand by the ideals that destroying civilizations, rather than furthering it is the right way? No, they are not educated. Least of all educated of Islam and religion. ye i can agree with that although not having any money or just basic needs can make people desperate though |
| Preventative measures? I think it works better or worse depending on the context: Medical is excellent, helps reduce further complications and expenses. Security is iffy, cause longterm is hard to guarantee a longterm maintenance. Prayers may help with something; its comforting I guess. |
| "In the end the World really doesn't need a Superman. Just a Brave one" |
| This is almost like a rhetorical question. A lack of offering condolences will make those affected by the tragedy feel worse. A lack of preventive measures make it so that these tragedies keep occuring and claim more lives. On one hand we have some people's sorrow being slightly lifted by words, on the other we have saving lives from potential peril. If you for some reason only had to choose one, the answer's obvious. But then again why would you need to choose only one? Especially since the other doesn't cost you anything. |
Auron_Jul 18, 2019 8:23 AM
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Orhunaa said: My prayers and condolences require a sacrifice-- O_O But then again why would you need to choose only one? Especially since the other doesn't cost you anything. |
| "In the end the World really doesn't need a Superman. Just a Brave one" |
| I believe that more security measures is the answer. Arming the staff would be my recommended method to prevent this. Also, preparing more fire escape exits would be preferable. Banning guns is futile for the same reason banning alcohol was a flop. With the existance of 3d printers it is virtually impossible to stop distribution of that stuff not even counting the existance of the black market. |
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rohan121 said: Banning guns is futile for the same reason banning alcohol was a flop. i can understand the reasoning behind this point of view, but both the uk (after the dunblane school shooting) and australia (after the port arthur massacre) are a testement to how banning guns is an important preventive measure. of course, the banning of guns cannot completely shut down the possibility of shootings, as long as the intent to hurt is still around, but, in both cases, the number of shootings has dramatically decreased after this form of preventative measure. rohan121 said: not even counting the existance of the black market. i doubt the average school shooter has easy access to the black market. the quick access to family weapons, on the other hand, can only encourage them. |
AnimeFreak-San said: is this a male gender issure...human issue...mental illness perhaps? |
| If by thoughts and prayers you simply mean consoling the friends and family of victims, then of course preventive measures are more effective. AnimeFeminist said: Take US for example if they would only ban guns like in other civilized countries violence and school shootings would drop but they won't do it cause muh 2nd amendment. I'm not so sure. Criminals have no regard for the law. Banning guns would only make it so that those who follow the rules can't defend themselves against those who don't. Plus most schools are already gun-free zones, and that is what shooters tend to target. They know it's a lot less likely for there to be armed resistance there. If anything, arming people more heavily could reduce gun violence. Gun control laws can be implemented without banning all firearms as well. (Such as stricter background checks.) When all firearms are banned, that can increase violence in other areas, like knife stabbings. As for the second amendment, its primary purpose is to safeguard against tyranny. The idea is that if it gets bad enough, the people are equipped to overthrow the government and replace it with something less corrupt. To that end, the citizenry must have firepower equal to or greater than that of the state. At any rate, self-defense is a RIGHT, not a privilege. Your so-called civilized countries have already lost their rights. |
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| Pshaw, another thread hijacked by the gun control debate, we just had one last week! But basically @SadMadoka said what I would have said. We can't forget that within living memory 'civilized' 1st world countries turned on their own citizens resulting in thousands if not millions of deaths. It is easy to forget because of the luxuries it provides, but society is a very thin shield from callous intent harbored in individuals and governments. |
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Orhunaa said: This is almost like a rhetorical question. A lack of offering condolences will make those affected by the tragedy feel worse. A lack of preventive measures make it so that these tragedies keep occuring and claim more lives. On one hand we have some people's sorrow being slightly lifted by words, on the other we have saving lives from potential peril. If you for some reason only had to choose one, the answer's obvious. But then again why would you need to choose only one? Especially since the other doesn't cost you anything. thats why i added whats happening with the repeated gun violence news for example when will the repeated thoughts and prayers would stop/lessen drastically by start making preventive measures about that? also thats why i added the repeated/constant terrorism on Africa (and lets add even the Middle East) too that a lot from the west does not much care about too even if their death toll is much much higher than terrorism on the west |
2ego said: Unnatural deaths will never stop, whether you execute preventive measures or not, that's pretty evident though, I guess. Unnatural deaths are a part of "good & evil," and that existed since always, and will. we can lessen it like wars is not as common now a days (statistic wise) despite what news says so same with how low the crime rates are for rich countries for example like japan DiscoDespot said: Pshaw, another thread hijacked by the gun control debate, we just had one last week! this thread is not exclusive to gun control though but sure people can talk about that too |
degJul 18, 2019 3:29 PM
2ego said: deg said: we can lessen it like wars is not as common now a days (statistic wise) despite what news says so same with how low the crime rates are for rich countries for example like japan I believe it would only provoke those in need to satisfy their urges or dissatisfactions. Crime rate can lessen, but that wouldn't do it's job properly unless it's done correctly, since people commit crimes due to not being satisfied with something, for the most part at least. Basically, the sole plausible method to actually stop people from committing these heinous crimes would be to satisfy their standards of living, and that is in fact, not possible. Here's an analogy: every drink can be disliked by someone. there will be outliers (exceptions) on statistics though and you mention increasing the standard of living and that is a very good reason on why rich countries for the most part have low crime rates though |
SadMadoka said: As for the second amendment, its primary purpose is to safeguard against tyranny. The idea is that if it gets bad enough, the people are equipped to overthrow the government and replace it with something less corrupt. To that end, the citizenry must have firepower equal to or greater than that of the state. The idea that an average citizen can take on tanks, missile launchers and all that stuff seems kinda silly to me. When your government goes tyrannical you'd be powerless I think, armed or otherwise, unless a coup d'etat happens. @deg Dunno how those relate to this but yeah. It's a sad fact of life that people are apathetic towards death and suffering that isn't immediately conceivable to them. So much for the equality of life. I agree that taking action is especially more important than thoughts in that case. |
Auron_Jul 18, 2019 3:40 PM
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Orhunaa said: The idea that an average citizen can take on tanks, missile launchers and all that stuff seems kinda silly to me. When your government goes tyrannical you'd be powerless I think, armed or otherwise, unless a coup d'etat happens. It's not a single "average citizen"; the US population exceeds 300 million. ;) |
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| thoughts and prayers may be comforting, but nothing will be done unless action is taken. have thoughts and prayers if you want, but action should always be in the forefront. |
  i like soup |
rohan121 said: I believe that more security measures is the answer. Arming the staff would be my recommended method to prevent this. Also, preparing more fire escape exits would be preferable. those are good preventive measures to this arson crime on KyoAni but im not sure about arming the staff though, maybe just add enough security guards with guns because i do not hear reports about any security guards of that KyoAni building |
degJul 18, 2019 3:48 PM
SadMadoka said: Orhunaa said: The idea that an average citizen can take on tanks, missile launchers and all that stuff seems kinda silly to me. When your government goes tyrannical you'd be powerless I think, armed or otherwise, unless a coup d'etat happens. It's not a single "average citizen"; the US population exceeds 300 million. ;) Still doesn't change the fact that the military of a modern superpower like US is no joke. Highly trained soldiers and far more resources. They wouldn't even give time for the masses to organize since they'll be informed of it beforehand and if you're in a state of disarray numbers won't help you. Raid some places and incarcarate some people to set an example, see how many are still willing to fight. |
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Orhunaa said: Still doesn't change the fact that the military of a modern superpower like US is no joke. Highly trained soldiers and far more resources. They wouldn't even give time for the masses to organize since they'll be informed of it beforehand and if you're in a state of disarray numbers won't help you. Raid some places and incarcarate some people to set an example, see how many are still willing to fight. Perhaps...but in the event of such an internal takeover, the citizens of the US would still have better chances than most other countries. Plus many in the military would refuse to do it or even rebel. |
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deg said: @traed Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which the response to a crime is to organize a meeting between the victim and the offender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice damn i do not know about that since i can imagine that forgiveness is very hard to impossible for a lot of victims of killing their love ones but ye there might be some exception since there are stuff like stockholm syndrome too or some are just naturally forgiving Well that is part of it and of course is voluntarily on part of the victim's request but from what i heard it also includes other things like offender rehabilitation, reintegration and so on. How I even found about the term was a Ted Talk a widow did about doing it. |
| @Orhunaa i googled about rhetoric question and lol it really fits the first post but that is not my intention though i just want to see some rhetoric question like counter too that is saying thoughts and prayers is what matters more |
| Why not both? And besides thoughts and prayers is usually a sentiment and doesn't really have much of a connection to religion as people make them out to be, it's like saying "sorry for your loss" and giving support, I don't get why people get so triggered by that statement and besides, it's more of a cause and effect type of thing, of course the event would result to an action, considering its on a much larger scale so I don't really see what's up with having to choose between one of those. |
EGOIST said: Why not both? And besides thoughts and prayers is usually a sentiment and doesn't really have much of a connection to religion as people make them out to be, it's like saying "sorry for your loss" and giving support, I don't get why people get so triggered by that statement and besides, it's more of a cause and effect type of thing, of course the event would result to an action, considering its on a much larger scale so I don't really see what's up with having to choose between one of those. ye im irreligious but i do send thoughts and prayers too and RIP comments like i did in some threads about this KyoAni crime and thats why i added those unnatural deaths that the west for example does not care about like terrorism in Africa that has much more death toll than any terrorism in the west lets face it anime fans especially the KyoAni fans are the ones that mostly care about this crime in a emotional level so to me its better to just advocate (even a little bit) for preventive measures if you do not have much care on the emotional level EDIT: or you can sum up your 100% care to 10% thoughts and prayers while 90% preventive measures (thats just an example) |
degJul 18, 2019 5:01 PM
| So...what are the preventative measures for stopping a lone maniac from torching a building? You got a Sibyl System to sell us here? |
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| This seems more like a statement than a question. I'll go with the obvious. Though, promoting sentiment is something that can cause an increased desire for a call to action. At this point though, it seems like a shallow, automated response that is said out of social obligation with the normalization of such events. |
 I can see you |
Bayek said: So...what are the preventative measures for stopping a lone maniac from torching a building? You got a Sibyl System to sell us here? security guards although there are reports that in this particular incident that the security of KyoAni building got shutdown because of some event but for most cases security guards will do and maybe even make some of them available even on such events like this |
deg said: I don't think anyone expressing condolences effectively disagrees with that. Having basic security isn't really a hot button issue like gun control or terrorism. Perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but the OP seemed to imply that there was a way to stop the arsonist from gathering supplies in the first place.Bayek said: So...what are the preventative measures for stopping a lone maniac from torching a building? You got a Sibyl System to sell us here? security guards although there are reports that in this particular incident that the security of KyoAni building got shutdown because of some event but for most cases security guards will do and maybe even make some of them available even on such events like this A normal person's "thoughts and prayers" are entirely different from a politician who only wields that phrase to feign sympathy while taking no responsibility. It's been used by leftist politicians to excuse terrorist attacks and it's been used by the pro-gun right to ignore the prevalent lethality of shootings. My main point is that the sentiment of "thoughts and prayers" isn't in and of itself a bad or useless thing. If anything, it's the way that ordinary people show compassion in the face of such horrors as opposed to remaining cynical, apathetic and detached. |
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Bayek said: deg said: I don't think anyone expressing condolences effectively disagrees with that. Having basic security isn't really a hot button issue like gun control or terrorism. Perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but the OP seemed to imply that there was a way to stop the arsonist from gathering supplies in the first place.security guards although there are reports that in this particular incident that the security of KyoAni building got shutdown because of some event but for most cases security guards will do and maybe even make some of them available even on such events like this A normal person's "thoughts and prayers" are entirely different from a politician who only wields that phrase to feign sympathy while taking no responsibility. It's been used by leftist politicians to excuse terrorist attacks and it's been used by the pro-gun right to ignore the prevalent lethality of shootings. My main point is that the sentiment of "thoughts and prayers" isn't in and of itself a bad or useless thing. If anything, it's the way that ordinary people show compassion in the face of such horrors as opposed to remaining cynical, apathetic and detached. im not really making this like a black and white scenario though thats why i use "more needed" and not "choose one" and relevant reply i made on the other user and thats why i added those unnatural deaths that the west for example does not care about like terrorism in Africa that has much more death toll than any terrorism in the west lets face it anime fans especially the KyoAni fans are the ones that mostly care about this crime in a emotional level so to me its better to just advocate (even a little bit) for preventive measures if you do not have much care on the emotional level EDIT: or you can sum up your 100% care to 10% thoughts and prayers while 90% preventive measures (thats just an example) |
| As many others have said, it's a false dilemma. Both are important and they are related. If no one cared to offer thoughts or prayers, why would anyone care about introducing preventive measures? That said, whether preventive measures are even relevant depends on the circumstances. Not all tragedies are equally preventable. Sometimes you just have to mourn and continue on. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Josh said: As many others have said, it's a false dilemma. Both are important and they are related. If no one cared to offer thoughts or prayers, why would anyone care about introducing preventive measures? That said, whether preventive measures are even relevant depends on the circumstances. Not all tragedies are equally preventable. Sometimes you just have to mourn and continue on. im more thinking about caring in the wider/global scale rather than caring about people you care more about and like i also mentioned you can breakdown your care to like 10% thoughts and prayers while 90% preventive measures (advocating) and i did made RIP comment/s on the KyoAni news threads too |
| Thought and prayer is literally doing nothing but posting on social media about how much you "care". |
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Kaiser-kun said: Thought and prayer is literally doing nothing but posting on social media about how much you "care". well if you are a KyoAni fan at least then its a more genuine emotional care |
| Well, I guess receiving a moral and psychological support is an important thing after a shock or an event like this But to me, thoughts and prayers are pretty useless. In some situations, preventive measures are really important, but there's some things or situations that you can't prevent, no matter what you do |
| you can't prevent unnatural deaths, gee. so of course your own thoughts are the only thing that's gonna help you get through it. |
If life ain't just a joke Then why are we laughing? If life ain't just a joke Then why am I dead? |
SadMadoka said: Orhunaa said: Still doesn't change the fact that the military of a modern superpower like US is no joke. Highly trained soldiers and far more resources. They wouldn't even give time for the masses to organize since they'll be informed of it beforehand and if you're in a state of disarray numbers won't help you. Raid some places and incarcarate some people to set an example, see how many are still willing to fight. Perhaps...but in the event of such an internal takeover, the citizens of the US would still have better chances than most other countries. Plus many in the military would refuse to do it or even rebel. That still sounds bizarre to me. Hypothetically if some democratic country's government would turn tyrannical, your assumption here looks close to something like opposition or the government wouldn't have foreign ties to get support or that foreign country wouldn't try to use the conflict for their own interests. And why other countries' politicians and those working in military wouldn't help the rebels? Then there is of course would honestly every citizen become a rebel and not support the tyrannical government, or will it just become a civil war. |
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Orhunaa said: Still doesn't change the fact that the military of a modern superpower like US is no joke. Highly trained soldiers and far more resources. They wouldn't even give time for the masses to organize since they'll be informed of it beforehand and if you're in a state of disarray numbers won't help you. Raid some places and incarcarate some people to set an example, see how many are still willing to fight. There is a very good reason why dictatorships always disarm citizens and thats because it's impossible for a military to hold an area with just tanks and helicopters, there will always be a need for boots on the ground, meaning the average civilian rifle can be just as deadly as any military issue rifle, sometimes more so. Hell, extremists in the middle east manage to keep the U.S. military busy despite having vastly inferior training and equipment. Also, as @SadMadoka stated, much of the U.S. military would be hesitant to use deadly force against the U.S. populace since nobody wants to firebomb their hometown. |
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AnimeFeminist said: Fuck thoughts and prayers — præventive measures are the only relevant thing and happened it despite of those it's best used to laugh at sensitive moralfags and do the opposite and laugh at human death to shock people.Both are important but preventive measures are more useful . If men be going to die it best be used to make moralfags feel uncomfortable. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| @Flevalt The doors to the studio were usually locked by security, but they had expected visitors that morning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack#Background that seems to imply they let their (security) guard down and why do that especially if there are more people than normal? they do not even do body checks like with a metal detector to at least get the knife of the criminal he used to threaten people with? Police said he was also carrying a backpack with several knives. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/07/kyoto-animation-kyoani-fire-arson-suspect-death-toll |
deg said: How high/low is the crime rate in the country? I feel like the low security is because of that. I'm not sure if this is true or not but don't most japanese homes leave their houses unlocked? @Flevalt The doors to the studio were usually locked by security, but they had expected visitors that morning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack#Background that seems to imply they let their (security) guard down and why do that especially if there are more people than normal? they do not even do body checks like with a metal detector to at least get the knife of the criminal he used to threaten people with? Police said he was also carrying a backpack with several knives. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/07/kyoto-animation-kyoani-fire-arson-suspect-death-toll |
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