Exhalant said: I'm not necessarily sure what you refer to as "forced character" acting. It seems we have different views on good animation/character design is and I guess that's fine. Since you dropped out on the series so early, let me just say I think you missed out on an amazing series. It seems we have different meanings of what animation (not character design) is. What I am referring to as Animation is: the technique of photographing successive drawings or positions of puppets or models to create an illusion of movement when the movie is shown as a sequence. So yes, by taking that into consideration, animation is definately reliant upon it's fluidity and motion. I think you're mixing animation up with visuals? No, I'm not. Your concept of animation is right. I've read books about animation and I'm pretty sure about its meaning. Animation is 'the illusion of life'. And no, animation quality is not just about fluidity and detail. You just need to read more about it and you'll know. As I said before, take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation. Many people seem to think that animation quality is only about fluidity and the principle of "Secondary Action", that's what gives detail to the animation However, you have to remember that animation has the role of evoking emotions and ideas as much as the story does, thus it has to make the viewer pay attention to the right things, and be consistent with the show itself. Now, when I referred to Hyouka, I was talking about the "Appeal" principle. Animation, as mentioned in the wikipedia article, takes the role of 'acting' in movies, along with VA and character design. When I said I felt the character acting of Hyouka forced, I was talking about this:  I know it's hard to think of animation as something besides frames per second and stuff, that's because of the wrong notion a lot of people spread on MAL. Sure, that does count, but 'making the characters move convincingly while bringing out emotion' has to take much more factors into consideration besides fluidity and detail. Exhalant said: Hopefully, I'll be able to clear this up. #1. Good character design does NOT mean appealing characters. Sometimes a villain will have to be pretty ugly because it's the only thing the animators/creators felt that would suit him. His costume, his hair, facial features, skin tone, body proportions make up his character design. There are a lot of ugly villains/characters that aren't appealing to the eye but the realness and their character design is still good. I consider this while I watch anime. If I'm watching something and the character has poorly drawn clothing, facial features that clearly weren't focused upon, lack of effort in creativity and design, I can easily point this off as terrible character design and it most likely wouldn't be appealing either. Yubaba (Spirited Away) is ugly but her character design is good. You can tell the animators put in a lot of effort and detail into her.  Did you read the club posts I linked you? They explain exactly this. Also, appeal =/= look pretty. Appeal is a character design that makes you curious to know more about the character (I'm not making this up, you can search textbooks of character design and they'll tell you that). So by definition, Yubaba is appealing (imo) and you're still implying good character design means appealing. Exhalant said: This is what I am saying I'm saying in conclusion. There is a difference between character design and suitability. An anime might have good character design but it still might not suit the anime as a whole. But a character design can't be called good if it's not suitable. You can call it a lot of other things, like appealing and unique and recognizable. But (referring to the club posts once again) they would not be informative which means they would completely destroy their take on the believability of the characters. |
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| also can I just say that ping pong looks great. |
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| No, I'm not. Your concept of animation is right. I've read books about animation and I'm pretty sure about its meaning. Animation is 'the illusion of life'. And no, animation quality is not just about fluidity and detail. You just need to read more about it and you'll know. As I said before, take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation. Many people seem to think that animation quality is only about fluidity and the principle of "Secondary Action", that's what gives detail to the animation However, you have to remember that animation has the role of evoking emotions and ideas as much as the story does, thus it has to make the viewer pay attention to the right things, and be consistent with the show itself. Now, when I referred to Hyouka, I was talking about the "Appeal" principle. Animation, as mentioned in the wikipedia article, takes the role of 'acting' in movies, along with VA and character design. When I said I felt the character acting of Hyouka forced, I was talking about this: I know it's hard to think of animation as something besides frames per second and stuff, that's because of the wrong notion a lot of people spread on MAL. Sure, that does count, but 'making the characters move convincingly while bringing out emotion' has to take much more factors into consideration besides fluidity and detail. Exhalant said: Hopefully, I'll be able to clear this up. #1. Good character design does NOT mean appealing characters. Sometimes a villain will have to be pretty ugly because it's the only thing the animators/creators felt that would suit him. His costume, his hair, facial features, skin tone, body proportions make up his character design. There are a lot of ugly villains/characters that aren't appealing to the eye but the realness and their character design is still good. I consider this while I watch anime. If I'm watching something and the character has poorly drawn clothing, facial features that clearly weren't focused upon, lack of effort in creativity and design, I can easily point this off as terrible character design and it most likely wouldn't be appealing either. Yubaba (Spirited Away) is ugly but her character design is good. You can tell the animators put in a lot of effort and detail into her. Did you read the club posts I linked you? They explain exactly this. Also, appeal =/= look pretty. Appeal is a character design that makes you curious to know more about the character (I'm not making this up, you can search textbooks of character design and they'll tell you that). So by definition, Yubaba is appealing (imo) and you're still implying good character design means appealing. Exhalant said: This is what I am saying I'm saying in conclusion. There is a difference between character design and suitability. An anime might have good character design but it still might not suit the anime as a whole. But a character design can't be called good if it's not suitable. You can call it a lot of other things, like appealing and unique and recognizable. But (referring to the club posts once again) they would not be informative which means they would completely destroy their take on the believability of the characters.[/quote] I don't like drawing out conversations like this lol .-. I went a bit deeper than that Wikipedia article and I read some more reliable sources. Appeal is in fact a factor of animation, like you said. But then if I join all these definitions and examples together, wouldn't that basically mean Appeal=Character design? I think that's basically it. Appeal aka Character Design= 1/12 Animation or 1 of the 12 factors that determine animation. From this point on, I agree with you on that. There were some sources that had sub-factors while other sources had more than 12, but let's not dwell on that. The more I looked into this, the more I thought that Character Design and Suitability aren't the same thing at all. A character might have a good appeal/character design but it almost feels as if the character himself doesn't belong in a particular series. You might also relate this to when a person is "out of character" in an anime. The character design/appeal just seems to be used in the wrong place. We can compare this to acting when someone says that a particular actor wasn't the right person to cast in a particular movie. Do you get what I mean when I say you can have a good character but it just seems like they're placed/used for the wrong purpose in a particular series? That's why I used the Hyouka and Code Geass reference. A character with the visual design style (and maybe personality) of Oreki Houtarou would never blend into the atmosphere of an anime like Code Geass. Although an extreme bipolar opposite instance like that would probably never happen. |
| I don't think I ever came across an anime with an art style I couldn't stand at the point of making it unwatchable. |
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| As long if the story is good, I can get pass bad artwork. I'm a person with a pretty good open mind. |
| I could watch any art style as long as it's not Midori: Shoujo Tsubaki. I'm alright with explicit contents, but that is the only show which i couldn't stomach ;; |
| Sounds like my experience with Seto no Hanayome. If you're watching it dubbed, you could always just have it playing while looking at something else and try to follow along with just the audio. Or you can give up and ~drop it~ |
| Bad art is hardly something to drop an anime over imo, but it can be a big turn off. Sometimes the art just works, like in Kemonozume where it fits with the story. Shame a lot of people thought it was bad though; contemporary would have been a better word than bad. |
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jennahaner said: Art style meaning the way the characters are drawn -- The amount of times i get recommended to watch Clannad + Clannad AS, I really CAN'T do it. It sounds so amazing and I did try to put myself through it once but I couldn't get pass 3 minutes without cringing and dying at the characters' appearance. I can't take the exaggerated features and the hair and the "kawaii-ness", especially when they are meant to be 16 or whatever but look 10 years old. I'd rather have them look 30 instead. How do people watch anime like this?! Horrible art style might be different for everyone. It is just individual preferences just like what you said about "kawaii-ness" (I don't think if that suppose to be horrible) because I really think Clannad was well drawn. There is no method how to watch horrible art style to individual, either you ignore it or you need to be a type who does not even care about the art if the story is good. That is what happen to me. I don't care about the art as long as the story is good. For example: Noein: To Your Other Self This anime is in my top 20. The art style is somehow.....different. You will know what I'm talking about when you try to watch it and you might can't even stand for 10 minutes because of the art style. But if you focus on the story, you might be at the edge of your seat for every episode, I don't even care about the character drawn. Like I said, individual preferences. |
Exhalant said: No, I'm not. Your concept of animation is right. I've read books about animation and I'm pretty sure about its meaning. Animation is 'the illusion of life'. And no, animation quality is not just about fluidity and detail. You just need to read more about it and you'll know. As I said before, take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation. Many people seem to think that animation quality is only about fluidity and the principle of "Secondary Action", that's what gives detail to the animation However, you have to remember that animation has the role of evoking emotions and ideas as much as the story does, thus it has to make the viewer pay attention to the right things, and be consistent with the show itself. Now, when I referred to Hyouka, I was talking about the "Appeal" principle. Animation, as mentioned in the wikipedia article, takes the role of 'acting' in movies, along with VA and character design. When I said I felt the character acting of Hyouka forced, I was talking about this: I know it's hard to think of animation as something besides frames per second and stuff, that's because of the wrong notion a lot of people spread on MAL. Sure, that does count, but 'making the characters move convincingly while bringing out emotion' has to take much more factors into consideration besides fluidity and detail. Exhalant said: Hopefully, I'll be able to clear this up. #1. Good character design does NOT mean appealing characters. Sometimes a villain will have to be pretty ugly because it's the only thing the animators/creators felt that would suit him. His costume, his hair, facial features, skin tone, body proportions make up his character design. There are a lot of ugly villains/characters that aren't appealing to the eye but the realness and their character design is still good. I consider this while I watch anime. If I'm watching something and the character has poorly drawn clothing, facial features that clearly weren't focused upon, lack of effort in creativity and design, I can easily point this off as terrible character design and it most likely wouldn't be appealing either. Yubaba (Spirited Away) is ugly but her character design is good. You can tell the animators put in a lot of effort and detail into her. Did you read the club posts I linked you? They explain exactly this. Also, appeal =/= look pretty. Appeal is a character design that makes you curious to know more about the character (I'm not making this up, you can search textbooks of character design and they'll tell you that). So by definition, Yubaba is appealing (imo) and you're still implying good character design means appealing. Exhalant said: This is what I am saying I'm saying in conclusion. There is a difference between character design and suitability. An anime might have good character design but it still might not suit the anime as a whole. But a character design can't be called good if it's not suitable. You can call it a lot of other things, like appealing and unique and recognizable. But (referring to the club posts once again) they would not be informative which means they would completely destroy their take on the believability of the characters. I don't like drawing out conversations like this lol .-. I went a bit deeper than that Wikipedia article and I read some more reliable sources. Appeal is in fact a factor of animation, like you said. But then if I join all these definitions and examples together, wouldn't that basically mean Appeal=Character design? I think that's basically it. Appeal aka Character Design= 1/12 Animation or 1 of the 12 factors that determine animation. From this point on, I agree with you on that. There were some sources that had sub-factors while other sources had more than 12, but let's not dwell on that. The more I looked into this, the more I thought that Character Design and Suitability aren't the same thing at all. A character might have a good appeal/character design but it almost feels as if the character himself doesn't belong in a particular series. You might also relate this to when a person is "out of character" in an anime. The character design/appeal just seems to be used in the wrong place. We can compare this to acting when someone says that a particular actor wasn't the right person to cast in a particular movie. Do you get what I mean when I say you can have a good character but it just seems like they're placed/used for the wrong purpose in a particular series? That's why I used the Hyouka and Code Geass reference. A character with the visual design style (and maybe personality) of Oreki Houtarou would never blend into the atmosphere of an anime like Code Geass. Although an extreme bipolar opposite instance like that would probably never happen.[/quote] A well-designed but unfit character is better than nothing, though. At it least it shows the creators put effort into making them distinct. What I can't stand is bland character design like that .gif that was posted. |
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| I don't. If it's unappealing to watch I'll drop it - or more likely I won't bother with it in the first place. |
| You cut onions before you watch it. That way you will barely be able to see it. |
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| You pray to your wittle god that the story, writing, and characters hold up. |
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| Out of the 60 anime I rated 10..... (I know I just love it so much) there are like 2 of them with not so good art. I didn't think I cared that much about art.... but I guess it is very important. |
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| Art is very subjective. Most of my favorite anime have different arts and I like it that way. Actually, its harder for me to watch something with a standard modern anime look than watch something that looks different. |
A well-designed but unfit character is better than nothing, though. At it least it shows the creators put effort into making them distinct. What I can't stand is bland character design like that .gif that was posted. You aren't wrong for thinking that though. You're basically saying that a character that looks good visually but lacks appeal and suitability is better than nothing. I'd just prefer all 3 elements to be there; suitability, appeal (aka character design), and good visuals. Hyouka was a slice-of-life anime, I'm not completely sure what you expected. I was quite fond of Hyouka's animation quality because it fit the anime and mood very well. I'm not going to judge you on whether you liked the artstyle or not but I've never heard of a person who actually watched all of Hyouka use its artstyle as a failing factor. A character should always look good visually but they should also have a personality that suits and matches their style. There are some actions particular characters should never be able to do. It's just not expected. |
| People really care? And Beside this Clannad had a marvelous art? |
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. | You know what I hate the most? People who aren't free. They're no more than cattle. |
aqing0601 said: I cringed whilst watching every episode of Aku no Hana and Ping Pong the animation, eventually I got used to it, until I realized that anime could look better. I loved the animation in both of these so much I could never watch clannad tho... The eyes... the voices... |
jennahaner said: Art style meaning the way the characters are drawn -- The amount of times i get recommended to watch Clannad + Clannad AS, I really CAN'T do it. It sounds so amazing and I did try to put myself through it once but I couldn't get pass 3 minutes without cringing and dying at the characters' appearance. I can't take the exaggerated features and the hair and the "kawaii-ness", especially when they are meant to be 16 or whatever but look 10 years old. I'd rather have them look 30 instead. How do people watch anime like this?! Trust me, i was at that stage but one day, I thought FUCK IT! And just focused on the rest. Now I won't give a damn....unless its actually BAD art like DB Super Episode 5 bad! |
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| Good thing I got majority of those out of the way when I was younger, now I probably wouldn't. |
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| If there this something you don't like about an amine why would you watch it ? |
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| 'how do you watch anime with horrible art style?' Me-"with my eyes' |
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| Ill watch it normally . It doesnt matter to me if the Art is horrible what important is the Story and how it will satisfy my taste. |
I think everything in this world is beautiful. The sky, birds, bugs, frogs, flowers, and even rocks. Because, if God created this world, could there really be anything dirty and ugly in it?  |
jennahaner said: Art style meaning the way the characters are drawn -- The amount of times i get recommended to watch Clannad + Clannad AS, I really CAN'T do it. It sounds so amazing and I did try to put myself through it once but I couldn't get pass 3 minutes without cringing and dying at the characters' appearance. I can't take the exaggerated features and the hair and the "kawaii-ness", especially when they are meant to be 16 or whatever but look 10 years old. I'd rather have them look 30 instead. How do people watch anime like this?! I enjoyed Crayon Shin-Chan. That stuff looks like something kindergartners drawn. But most anime and other cartons are caricatures of people instead of actual representations of people. |
| >Open My PC/Laptop >Torrent the anime >Start watching.. using my eyes and ears..... |
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| By not expecting the show to be exactly as I'd want |
 |
jennahaner said: Art style meaning the way the characters are drawn -- The amount of times i get recommended to watch Clannad + Clannad AS, I really CAN'T do it. It sounds so amazing and I did try to put myself through it once but I couldn't get pass 3 minutes without cringing and dying at the characters' appearance. I can't take the exaggerated features and the hair and the "kawaii-ness", especially when they are meant to be 16 or whatever but look 10 years old. I'd rather have them look 30 instead. How do people watch anime like this?! When I first started Clannad, the eyes really threw me off and I had to hold my giggles for the first few episodes. When the story drew me in, the style ceased to matter and I actually grew to love it. Clannad is one of my favorite anime. It's easy to forget about a shit art style when the story and characters draw you in. |
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| Doesn't bother me, i watched ping pong, i watch many extremely old ones and did not phase me. Granted i do enjoy great art style and animation but i won't let something that looks bad graphically turn me off. |
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Kreion said: TheBrainintheJar said: A well-designed but unfit character is better than nothing, though. At it least it shows the creators put effort into making them distinct. What I can't stand is bland character design like that .gif that was posted. Hyouka is set in a modern Japanese school and it's entire premise is about how everyday mysteries can be interesting - you can call a character like Satoshi's character design bland but it fits its purpose and is accurate to the series and the tone it is trying to depict. The most OTT bits of character design series are eye colour, since Chitanda's are purple and Mayaka's are like a pinky brown. In reference to some of the stuff I cut out of the quote I would say an appropriate character design is more important than an interesting one - but I think that's a large discussion which I am not inclined to have and comes down mostly to personal preference. I only see a bland style with no quirks. There's no unique hairstyle, facial expression or details. It's realistic without being detailed and 'alive' like Monster or Tex. The blandness hurts. |
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tragedydesu said: i still cant understand how i managed to finish clannad anyway , actually if the art style is so bad i will drop it immediately Are you blind dude? Clannad had beautiful artwork minus the characters having gigantic eyes.. That was literally the only thing. The anime art/drawings were VERY well done imo. |
| Become a masochist. I tried giving hentai a chance and my eyes bleed bleed every time. |
incisorr said: i love it when people start acting like some neutral almighty unbiased godly judge and they even believe their own shit, suddenly its not their thoughts and opinions anymore but the righteous justice god way, they are unbiased, non-subjective, they just are! To be honest, everyone is like this quite often, me included, but i don't forget myself and i still post a lot of personal shit which is what forums are made for , if they didn't want us to have our own style and posts it would be an article instead a forum thread. |
lequack said: I dropped code geass for this reason. The characters are too thin and their arms/legs are too long. Seriously mate, so people like this really exist. I can understand dropping clannad but code grass! I mean it's one of those classic examples of a story which just cannot be missed. The art style can go to hell really. |
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How do you watch anime with horrible hair styles? |
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| There is no such thing as horrible art.... "ART is ART". Thats all.. It takes effort to art.... u will never know.. P.S : JUST KIDDING!! |
TheBrainintheJar said: I only see a bland style with no quirks. There's no unique hairstyle, facial expression or details. It's realistic without being detailed and 'alive' like Monster or Tex. The blandness hurts. You're judging it of the one gif? xD How would you have any idea about the facial expressions he makes...Also just to counter you with one search of the Monster anime characters I can see at least a couple which I would call generic and bland. Which again is fine because that series is one which really plays up to the realistic tone it attempts to create. You're trying to argue that stuff like this and are stylistically interesting and couldn't be called bland? Now don't get me wrong, browsing through Monster's character design I would say it probably has more interesting character design, but I would still argue that Hyouka's character design completely suits the setting and atmosphere it is attempting to convey and therefore it's fine. I mean it's also worth mentioning that KyoAni's style in and of itself is quite exaggerated and colourful - whereas the style used in Monster at least is just straight realism. |
I have only dropped one anime because I found the artstyle to be an eyesore so far.   |
| You tell yourself it's worth it because of other elements OUTSIDE of the style to consider such as the plot or characters. Honestly, it's all heavily dependent on preferences when it comes to finding anime with "good art style" but I think it's a great benefit to keep an open mind because some animes won't necessarily have the most crisp, beautiful art style but have a meaningful story to tell. Beautiful visuals does not automatically equal great story, and having your eyes suffer a little should be worth the outcome if you enjoy the story. However...once u find out its not worth your time, you run and make it disappear from ur animelist. Make it like it never happened and don't waste your time. lol |
EarlCielApr 10, 2016 10:02 AM
| I don't. I drop it or don't even attempt to begin watching. |
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Kreion said: TheBrainintheJar said: I only see a bland style with no quirks. There's no unique hairstyle, facial expression or details. It's realistic without being detailed and 'alive' like Monster or Tex. The blandness hurts. You're judging it of the one gif? xD How would you have any idea about the facial expressions he makes...Also just to counter you with one search of the Monster anime characters I can see at least a couple which I would call generic and bland. Which again is fine because that series is one which really plays up to the realistic tone it attempts to create. You're trying to argue that stuff like this and are stylistically interesting and couldn't be called bland? Now don't get me wrong, browsing through Monster's character design I would say it probably has more interesting character design, but I would still argue that Hyouka's character design completely suits the setting and atmosphere it is attempting to convey and therefore it's fine. I mean it's also worth mentioning that KyoAni's style in and of itself is quite exaggerated and colourful - whereas the style used in Monster at least is just straight realism. I don't see exaggerations or colors in the gif. I don't see anything resembling Date A Live or Hyperdimension Neptunia - prime examples of how a wide color palette can be beautiful. Of course I'm judging it by one gif. We're always making judgments based on the few details we have. You're welcome to show me more. It's just that the gif is a perfect example of a bland, personality-less art style that irks me. I don't think Tex or Monster have great art styles, but at least they have a style. Even if Tex is grimdark bullshit, it's not as empty. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| You're crazy, OP. Clannad has a lovely style!! As for watching anime with art styles I hate? Well, I don't. :p There is no such thing as horrible art.... There is. XD Like those XXXholic screenshots. There's a limit to "that's just how I draw it" when it's WAY out of proportion and looks really strange. |
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| Usually if the art is something I have trouble getting around, for whatever reason, I take a lot of breaks. Usually they're breaks between episodes, but sometimes I have to pause right in the middle of one and walk away for a bit. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. |
| I don't. Thankfully most good shows don't have what I'd consider an awful art style. |
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