| You wouldn't have made this thread if you actually weren't bothered by this. |
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| I'm with you for the most part but, uh... a few objective facts like if the mise en scene, actors were good etc whether or not something is good is not objective, so I'm not sure you quite know what you're trying to preach. |
| A review always reflects your personality. Even when you aim to be as objective and detached from the enjoyment factor as possible - that's still just a part of your personality. However, that's the kind of personality that allows you to write reviews which are helpful to more people. Consider Steins;Gate, for example. How helpful would it be for someone when they read a review which goes "I loved this cause Makise Kurisu is super hot". Not much, huh? Because Steins;Gate is so much more than that and you are reducing to something as simple and superficial as the fact that you find the female MC hot. That's why good reviews and ratings need to properly say what the anime actually does and then have an opinion on whether they enjoyed that. Because, believe me, most of the interpretations about what an anime tries to do are highly inaccurate. And that's why reviews and ratings which try to be as detached from the enjoyment factor are highly valuable. If we didn't do that, we'd ratw stuff like ecchi anime with 10 every time because we'll always be attracted to boobs and ass. And when have you like 400 anime rated higher than 9, good luck trying to discern which of them you should watch and which not. Because that's what ratings true and only purpose is - to advice people whether they should watch something or not. And they are doing a pretty damn good job imo. If you divide all anime by groups of 50 by rating, odds are your group with the highest rating would be... that's right, the top 50. |
| Damn, I bet people don't rate the same way then. *sees top 10 anime and bottom 10 anime* It's more of absolute qualities. No one is going to tell you that Ex-Arm looks good. It doesn't even follow the fundamentals of animation. Obviously, you can reason whatever you like, but you are going to have a hard time doing that with some works, unless your opinions are just "it is good" "it is fun". |
| it is indeed very odd how people are given a 1-10 format by the website and are just like " nah, that seems too easy.. i want to make things difficult " we just know they are the one hated in their friend group also, the only people who will cry about this thread are the people with an average score below 5.5 |
I find it weird when people enjoy a show, and acknowledge that they enjoyed it but still rate it low to be down right stupid (imho). The notion, that people want to read a critique with 'less opinion, more facts' is silly. Hard agree with both of these statements. The idea of liking something but thinking it isn’t good/rating it low is asinine to me, at least so far as media is concerned. If you enjoy or appreciate something, then it has objective merit to you as an individual; that is far more important than qualities like art or soundtrack, which are subjective qualities at the end of the day, regardless of what people with little to no media literacy may claim. Not to say actual objective reviewers don’t exist, of course, but their reviews are pointless and not worth reading, because all they do is give you information that you could find by reading a wiki page or a plot synopsis. Even if being subjective were bad- somehow- as a human being who has opinions, I’d much rather read the perspective of other human beings with opinions, rather than a robotic listing of facts with a number tacked on at the end. I implore you to read some reviews, usually most reviews i have read are extremely subjective coupled with a few objective facts like if the mise en scene, actors were good etc. But this, I don’t agree with. Those are completely subjective qualities as well. |
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| Honestly, it’s hard for me to figure out who decides what’s “objectively” good |
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| Replace "weird" with "delusional." |
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| I'm inexperienced at reviewing, so I roughly follow this template. Things you should know/do to enjoy the show more. How should you think about this anime? Were some of the problems with the anime just intentional artistic decisions? Problems you might still have with the show. Comments on story/art/sound/character. Witty closing statement. I also find it strange to rate an anime low if it entertained you. Isn't that the point? But I am awful when it comes to incorporating objective analysis into my reviews. |
| A rating/review should be as structured and standardized as possible to make it useful to strangers. Getting too much influenced by subjective stuff like personal enjoyment will hamper this as the reason for enjoyment is never the same for all. To achieve this, the MAL review system encourages users to judge based on Story, Art, Sound, Character, and Enjoyment. |
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| People who say that are just confused, they mistake "objectivity" for their personal assessment of the quality behind the work, and they falsely equate rating by "enjoyment" to mean something that lacks any critical thinking or that you would give a bad show a high score just because it had a few cool fights or some shit. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Jeevzsk said: I personally believe that a review should reflect your personality, and I feel like when i read someone who tries to do an objective review, they maybe 14 and can't deconstruct what they like, so they try to be objective to formulate their opinions Well I'm weird ig |
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| Objective flaws, make my enjoyment lower. |
| Why do you assume that people who enjoyed anime but rated it low are trying to be critical? I can enjoy anime but still understand that it doesn't come close to my favorites that I scored high, and this is exactly why I rate it lower, because I want to emphasize what I truly like. Rating all enjoyable anime high would make your list very bleak and indistinguishable |
9cycle  cycle9 |
| The fact that something being objective requires there to be an objective measure can't be overstated. It's like the simplest way to debunk the dingbats who try to argue that you can be objective when calling things good or bad. Saying something like "The dialogue in x anime is better than y anime" is not an objective measure at all, that's subjective, which is somehow confusing to people and only really latch onto "measure" so they forget that there are people capable of disagreeing with that "objective" statement. I'm at least happy that this forum miraculously has less topics about people claiming objectivity in their opinions and ratings though. People (rightfully) dumped on everyone making those kinds of threads that people avoid it in fear of being in the epicenter of a dogpile, and while people still say shit with that implication, my god is it better than the people outwardly saying certain shows are objectively good/bad. There's no real point to it either, it's not like people think you're suddenly cooler because you're an obnoxious twat. |
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| Rating objectively often corresponds to giving too much importance to plot, characters and animation while underestimating the other many little things that can affect enjoyment (pacing, atmosphere, etc.) |
| people who say this might have too high an opinion of themselves. As if their personal standards of what is good/bad is universal to all humans. |
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| People who rate objectively has never seen the light of day in years, nor have they touched grass for a moment. |
| It is technically impossible to give an objective "rating". |
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| Even if I enjoy something a lot I won't give it more credit than I see it deserves |
| people who rate objectively, are objectively the worst. |
Jeevzsk said: Good reviews are able to say what they like, but also ground it in an academic basis. I strongly agree and I'm happy to see you mention an academic basis as well because too often when people come out against 'objective' approaches they also are generally anti-intellectual and refuse to acknowledge that there are valid academic aspects to criticism. If there is no objectivity then that has to mean that a review made by someone who has no idea about animation/filmmaking/cinematography/editing/etc... is just as good and informative as it someone who studied those topics wrote it. Which is something I strongly disagree with it - I have yet to see an interesting review that didn't have interesting analysis of aspects like that. Imo the 'objective' elements of an analysis/criticism are the tools we have developed to look at animation/filmmaking. It's a skillset that can be learned and then applied, in a subjective way, leading to different results depending on the person and what they care about or focus on, on their pre-existing biases and preferences (or as a critic how you know and cater to your audience). But I still reject the idea that subjectivity somehow means every review, every opinion is equally viable or that there is no benefit in being eduated about the topic. And I feel a lot of the time people who say they rate or review 'objectively' are just confused about what it means and what they actually mean to say is that they rate/review from an educated and analytical perspective, which is perfectly fine. And the anti-intellectuals also play into this confusion by treating anyone who thinks there is a benefit in knowing about the stuff you write about as an objectivist elitist. I really don't believe there are a lot of actual objectivists out there. Just people who believe in the inter-subjective value of coming from an educated perspective, of at least having a common framework from and toolbox with which you try to analyze what you watch. But in the age of hyper-subjectivity there is this tendency to see the topic as black and white, and anything less than 'everything is subjective, nothing matters, every opinion is equal no matter what because objectivity exists nowhere on our plane of existence' is thrown in the same box as complete objectivism which leads to even the people who hold those perspectives to mis-identify as 'objectivists'. I'm not saying people who actually believe in real objectivity when reviewing shows don't exist, but over the years I've seen way more people being mislabeled (or mislabeling themselves) as such as I have seen people who actually are like that. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| It's objectively impossible to rate something objectively, rating is subjective by default since it only reflects your experience with whatever you're rating. |
| Who are you and why do you show your hostility towards a complete stranger whom you've not once spoken with before. Are you seriously asking to get blocked? Well, if that's what your intent is; to tempt me into throwing hands with someone as lowly and insignificant as you, then i may grant your wish provided you articulate yourself a bit better when trying to spite a person of my wavelength. |
| I don't know about weird, they just want to do something differently. I personally rate just based on what I felt while watching something, though. |
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| "Objetive" reviews at least have opinions disguised as facts that we can read and try to extract some value out of it. Worse are those who give a score to each criteria and average them to reach the final score, as if [in a particular anime] all criteria should have the same weight and as if [in the media as a whole] different anime shouldn't be viewed under different lenses. Those are useless. |
| Reviews are subjective by their very nature since they are opinions only things that are objective are the facts. |
  โค Incessant Rain โค “Can you let me have some fun this time?”  |
| Those who judge others for rating a cartoon anyway they like are weirder |
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returntothenhk said: Nobody. Objectivity is defined as reproducible in an experiment, independent of experimenter, time and place. Thus: applying the word "objective" to an opinion about art is broken by design.Honestly, it’s hard for me to figure out who decides what’s “objectively” good |
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| I find the OP could've been worded way better, particularly since it transitions from "rating" to "writing reviews", and both things are not mutually inclusive. As it stands I think you're just stating the obvious: - Avoid using "objective" when referring to a critique of art/media - "objective" ≠ having a set of criteria and standards I find it weird when people enjoy a show, and acknowledge that they enjoyed it but still rate it low to be down right stupid (imho) This part nonetheless seems unrelated. How people uses the rating system differs ever so slightly, and it's not an indication that they're trying to be "objective". This seems to be a fairly common misconception amongst people that rate very high: that people that don't are purposely pushing their mean down or something. |
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kazuhaisbae said: You perfectly summed up my thoughts in a single line and it goes without saying, yeah I 100 percent agree(and maybe i am guilty of that too sometimes lol)people who rate objectively, are objectively the worst. |
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| Idk, if they write good reviews in the bottom of the anime page, I don't care how they score it |
| There are 9 things that are undoubtedly objective, this all, of course excludes gag comedy anime and children's anime for obvious reasons. And before I write more than the average anime fans attention span can tolerate, let me say that you can admit an anime you like is not good writing(or has bad moments) or admit an anime you don't like is good writing(or has good moments)? I subjectively enjoyed Kodomo no Jikan, but I objectively cannot deny that it's horse shit. I'll give examples of anime that fit the qualify for objective praise and vs it with an anime that couldn't be further from fitting the bill and in fairness, they will be in the same genre/theme because comparing Crayons Shin-chan to Full Metal Panic isn't fair due to their clear differences and goals. So let's get started... (KEY - Example: Good vs terrible) 1) Plot consistency/continuity: An anime that is able to keep each and every episode connected, especially throughout the entire season, is undoubtedly a good one to that extent. Anybody can make an inconsistent anime, consistency is not as easy. (Example: Saikano vs Gunslinger Girl) 2) Animation quality: This is the easiest thing to judge objectively You cannot argue something that is animated poorly/lazily is a good piece of animated work? (Example: Love Live vs Bang Dream) 3) Character development: Just like #1, character development takes concentration and deep consideration. Sure, writing a character like Lufy from One Piece or Rito from To Love Ru, neither of which ever experiences any level of character development, is easy and simple to write. Hell, there takes no effort and it's insanely easy to write a character that remains the same for ever and ever to not change, but easy and simple doesn't translate to creative, respectable or good. An anime with noticable and believable character development is one that deserves praise with that aspect (Example: Knights of Sidomia vs Cowboy Bebop) 4) Script Quality: This closely matches with #1 but with more depth. It starts with episode one(or chapter one) - it is common sense that the first impressions means everything and the very first step to a good script is making the first episode something that makes the viewer want to watch more. This nonsensical "3 episode rule" is just that, nonsensical. There are thousands of anime out there and limited life to live. Beyond that, anybody who studies fiction writing, or has a Master of Arts or Master of Fine Arts Degree(I have a Master's in Journalism), can easily tell the difference beteen a script someone wrote up on a whim and didn't put much thought into vs one someone spent a considerable amount of time, effort and research to write up and perfect to the best of their abilities in that respective genre. (Example: Eighty-Six vs Gundam) 5) Character design: Let's compare it to something IRL: Nobody, with a straight face, would call someone who looks like Mituhiro Matumoto(Commissioner General of the National Police Agency) sexy person. Same here, nobody would watch an anime with but ugly ass characters or characters that looks like they were drawn by a child and say that their character was easy on the eyes(any anime EVER vs Aki no Hana *gags) 6) Originality & Tropes: This makes an anime truly stand out but it's so hard to market, since the industry fears thinking out side the box, that it is unfair to make this a big deciding factor in a score. But an anime that doesn't seem to be a cookie cutter of dozens of other anime before it and an anime that either avoids common tropes or takes common tropes and flips them on their head is an anime that is worthy of an applauds at the very least. An anime that thinks outside the box and tries a new theme or tries to shake up popular tropes.(Example: Your Lie In April vs 92-95% of anime on the market) 7) Execution: Maybe it's better to say this applies to everything on this list but how everything is executed is important. If you're forcing shit out of nowhere with no explanation, such as Season 3 of Shakugan no Shana(2 seasons, two main characters are allies, 3rd season from the first scene of the first episode, they are enemies outta nowhere). Or if you're throwing so much shit at an anime, especially the same ole shit, you're not thinking about ways to execute your ideas, you're just vomiting those ideas out on paper. (Exmple: Fate/Zero VA Re:Zero - Gradual Gorey violence vs a hail storm of Gorey violence) 8) Pacing: If an anime is too slow to go anywhere, you better have something good each episode to reassure the viewer that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But not too fast because going zero to 100 in 3 episodes gives you no time to give a shit about the characters or the plot. One minute we are having a nice chat in a classroom, the next minute everybody is throwing cats off the school roof. Statistically however, slow paced anime do tend to fare better than fast paced anime as it gives everyone enough time to really think about what happens next. That's why 6 episode anime always fall flat on their face with the complaints being it was "rushed". (Example: Clannad vs Seto no Hanayome) 9) A Conclusive Ending: Nobody would disagree that this is the second most, if not the absolutely most, important thing to look for in an anime, manga or any form of fictional entertainment. Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY, likes an anime that ends more (plot) holes than a Russian tank in the Ukraine. Nobody likes an anime that ends with you wondering "is that it?" Nobody likes an anime that doesn't even get you to half staff before saying "goodbye" and closing the door. If an anime doesn't have a conclusive ending, or even a damn well great ending, then it doesn't deserve a 10/10 score, no exceptions. (Example: Toradora vs To Love Ru) So ultimately, there are things you can objectively judge about an anime. Just as TRUE journalist can set aside their human emotions and just focus on getting the news accurately. If that's hard to understand then head to Reddit's /ExplainLikeImFive and you'll get the picture. |
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| I'm not sure about the first post in this thread, especially the last sentence, and I'm definitely not sure about the second post here, but I 100% agree with the title of this thread. Reviews & Ratings should provide different perspectives and a form of media should be consumed in order to be *enjoyed *. I will never understand how in the world ratings can *not* be about enjoyability! Imo who cares about anything else? Your view of an objective rating is still a subjective decision at its core, after all you decide for yourself what objectivity means to you. Imo it's meaningless to rate objectively, why not express your own tastes through your ratings? I feel it's kind of sad to rate on what you feel is correct instead of your own personal opinion of the show. In the end it's all about subjectivity, there is no one true correct opinion. Idk just my thoughts on this |
  tysm iva-๐ข๐ |
Jeevzsk said: Firstly, I'll start off by saying you can rate any anime any number, and I am not bothered by it. However, as someone who is not critic, but does do film studies in university, I do find a lot of peoples reasoning to numbers to be amusing. I find it weird when people enjoy a show, and acknowledge that they enjoyed it but still rate it low to be down right stupid (imho). The notion, that people want to read a critique with 'less opinion, more facts' is silly. Especially when a critique is a deconstruction of your opinion on the media you are watching. I implore you to read some reviews, usually most reviews i have read are extremely subjective coupled with a few objective facts like if the mise en scene, actors were good etc. Good reviews are able to say what they like, but also ground it in an academic basis. To be the people who try objtive review, it would be have to be measurable - which in fairness people usually do. When they rate the sound music at of ten, the story out of ten, the characters out of ten etc. However, id argue that this approach is very reductionist. To get a holistic review I feel like it should be subjective and having an objective metric for how things are rating things is silly. I personally believe that a review should reflect your personality, and I feel like when i read someone who tries to do an objective review, they maybe 14 and can't deconstruct what they like, so they try to be objective to formulate their opinions It's like this, some people take they angst out on a show like someone reviewed the Voltron series, calling it time period piece because the princess was useless in piloting one of the lion mechs. Anyway, she started off like a feminist would. Criticizing a show from the 80's based off a toy-line for boys, that it didn't have 'depth' in it's storytelling. Anyway, it was interesting to see her point of view, but to expect the writing to be peak of fiction from an 80's cartoon is ridiculous in the first place. If she used google, or like me, grew up in that timeline, storylines weren't important back then, mecha-lions that you put together to make a big-ass robot, however were. She made objective points, but I found the review hilarious. Hyakujuu-Ou GoLion aka Voltron: Defender of the Universe  https://myanimelist.net/anime/1448/Hyakujuu-Ou_GoLion It was a show that grew popular at the time because of the toyline, since it was an 80's piece, most popular cartoons at the time were all toy-based, or inspired toylines like the Gundam series did with it's model kits. Having a toy that was one thing to be another was the shit back then, remember Transformers? Storylines sucked, but having a vehicle turn into a combat robot was pretty awesome back in those days. Anyway, some people I believe take it too seriously, it's like trying to factualize fiction, like @Lolicon above did. Take it with a grain of salt and make sure they walk into your home backwards, so that demons or bad spirits don't follow them in. People rate shit subjectively anyway, I don't pay attention to reviews, because I watch any anime out of self-interest, not someone else's opinion. It's an 'experience' I enjoy by myself for myself, not someone else. I'm not much of a people-person and humans are known quite well for their dishonesty and flakey-feelings. A show is good if it gives me the feels, has characters that do 180's, teaches me something I don't know or shows me a perspective I never thought about and so on. Enjoying something is subjective in the first place, how can you be objective about that? |
SlimsithApr 16, 2022 4:08 PM
| objectivity in media consumption is fake because it relies on the viewer's unique experiences and perceptions which completely differ from person to person, making it completely subjective. there are things in media we can claim to judge objectively but it is not measured scientifically making it inherently subjective. people should feel free to throw around random numbers and have fun with it, it doesn't matter |
| *Objectively" lost its meaning a long time ago when people uses it as means to downgrade other anime that they don't like. It's not about telling people what you enjoyed about the series you're reviewing... it's about telling people whether you Love or Hate the said series. There's no inbetween. You either see 1's or 9's/10's as top reviews. There's no "objectively" in that. |
 I wasted all my time in rewatching to the point of my rewatch total is higher than my overall anime total lmao |
Slimsith said: Jeevzsk said: Firstly, I'll start off by saying you can rate any anime any number, and I am not bothered by it. However, as someone who is not critic, but does do film studies in university, I do find a lot of peoples reasoning to numbers to be amusing. I find it weird when people enjoy a show, and acknowledge that they enjoyed it but still rate it low to be down right stupid (imho). The notion, that people want to read a critique with 'less opinion, more facts' is silly. Especially when a critique is a deconstruction of your opinion on the media you are watching. I implore you to read some reviews, usually most reviews i have read are extremely subjective coupled with a few objective facts like if the mise en scene, actors were good etc. Good reviews are able to say what they like, but also ground it in an academic basis. To be the people who try objtive review, it would be have to be measurable - which in fairness people usually do. When they rate the sound music at of ten, the story out of ten, the characters out of ten etc. However, id argue that this approach is very reductionist. To get a holistic review I feel like it should be subjective and having an objective metric for how things are rating things is silly. I personally believe that a review should reflect your personality, and I feel like when i read someone who tries to do an objective review, they maybe 14 and can't deconstruct what they like, so they try to be objective to formulate their opinions It's like this, some people take they angst out on a show like someone reviewed the Voltron series, calling it time period piece because the princess was useless in piloting one of the lion mechs. Anyway, she started off like a feminist would. Criticizing a show from the 80's based off a toy-line for boys, that it didn't have 'depth' in it's storytelling. Anyway, it was interesting to see her point of view, but to expect the writing to be peak of fiction from an 80's cartoon is ridiculous in the first place. If she used google, or like me, grew up in that timeline, storylines weren't important back then, mecha-lions that you put together to make a big-ass robot, however were. She made objective points, but I found the review hilarious. Hyakujuu-Ou GoLion aka Voltron: Defender of the Universe https://myanimelist.net/anime/1448/Hyakujuu-Ou_GoLion It was a show that grew popular at the time because of the toyline, since it was an 80's piece, most popular cartoons at the time were all toy-based, or inspired toylines like the Gundam series did with it's model kits. Having a toy that was one thing to be another was the shit back then, remember Transformers? Storylines sucked, but having a vehicle turn into a combat robot was pretty awesome back in those days. Anyway, some people I believe take it too seriously, it's like trying to factualize fiction, like @Lolicon above did. Take it with a grain of salt and make sure they walk into your home backwards, so that demons or bad spirits don't follow them in. People rate shit subjectively anyway, I don't pay attention to reviews, because I watch any anime out of self-interest, not someone else's opinion. It's an 'experience' I enjoy by myself for myself, not someone else. I'm not much of a people-person and humans are known quite well for their dishonesty and flakey-feelings. A show is good if it gives me the feels, has characters that do 180's, teaches me something I don't know or shows me a perspective I never thought about and so on. Enjoying something is subjective in the first place, how can you be objective about that? Excatly thats why it so weird when they enjoy a show a lot, to rate it lower as some other superficial aspect is bad, as they believe they are being objective |
| So animes like TPN S2 isn't objectively bad? |
 “Once you've been loved once and have loved once, you cannot forget it.” โ Natsume Takashi |
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