Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Episode 27 Discussion

fthousand said:
not very deep or thought-provoking

ziggy_Z said:


You just haven't dived down deep enough, or thought about it hard enough.

Deus said:
Just finished. By no means I can call it a "masterpiece". Series is overrated but not bad, 7/10. A lot of stuff makes no sense, Anti Spiral is beaten by plot sword, etc... overall it's good for what it is. I liked the fact many "important" characters died. Because of that I liked anime more.

So I have an idea about ending. What if anti spiral won? What if Simon and others didn't really break out of labyrinth, but instead they thought they did? It's the ending I think is best. So all the stuff was illusion and actually they lost to anti spiral. Imagine, they think they won, but in reality, Anti Spiral laughs at them while they live in perfect illusion.

Mattimand said:
FUCK. DAMMIT. NOOO.

I am actually starting to like Nia just a bit. I still want an alternate setting where Simon and Yoko find together. They'd be a much better match in my honest opinion. Here's why…


Well sum up from spoiler above:

When Kamina is dead. And Simon has feelings for Yoko.
WHY THE FUCK INTRODUCE A NEW CHARACTER WITH THE ONLY PURPOSE TO STEAL SIMON FROM YOKO???

Please. If any one shared my opinion about Nia x Simon romance was too random, and Simon x Yoko romance was missed, please, PLEASE, do hit me up.

But anyway. Very good series.
Very good = 8/10 (for now, I tend to change opinion over time)

DeathProxy said:
This episode was great but...
How can anyone give this a 10? There are so many flaws and absurds through the entire anime...

Blue_Pie_Ninja said:
Meh all around. 5/10 overall anime.

I really don't understand this hype at all, the show is way too absurd for it's own good. I noticed it in episode 1, but it really hits home here where they literally smash galaxies together and throw it at each other. I mean, if the spiral nemesis is about every life creating a galaxy blah blah suddenly death of the universe, how can they just create a god-damned big bang just to attack someone???

The music was alright, but was extremely overused. The visuals were ok too, but it was extremely absurd, especially some of the really strange character designs.

Story is average, I did like how they killed off Kamina and really grew Simon from a wimpy kid into Kamina himself but with Simon characteristics. Kamina is still a huge jerk though. Nia ended up being more plot device than character herself, same with Lordgenome becoming a literal information dispenser. Also, Viral wasn't a very good chronologist instead helping Simon with everything. Yoko was designed for fan-service, but it was nice to flesh out her character and show that she can move on from her love interests' deaths. The other characters didn't really grow much and I didn't really care about any of them because of how over the top it all is.

A_Haiku_Unloose said:


^Mostly agree with the above, a generous 6/10 from me. Imo the hype is well undeserved, pre-time skip part is a snooze fest except maybe for 2 episodes, and the story does pick up a bit after the skip, but still too much fan service, too many cheesy dialogues, 0 logic, pretty uninteresting storyline, etc. Simon becoming Kamina #2 also wasn't very imaginative.

Blue pie ninja covered well my thoughts on the absurdity.

Just because something is extreme and over the top doesn't make it epic at all.

Fire13rin said:


Actually, I somewhat go against that, I understand where you stand though hear me out.

My argument is with Simon being Kamina #2, rather I think he's more of a best of both worlds on how Nia and Kamina think. While Kamina was about being manly and being reckless but in the name of doing what you want while Nia was more about taking a step back and you need to stay alive. While combining both of these aspects together, Simon was able to grow up as both Kamina and Nia served as what drove Simon's development. Simon became a well-rounded individual in terms that he cared for survival but also not being afraid.

Also, argument #2. Character designs. What do you mean by weird, rather I think they are almost perfect. Their design is easy to identify, even when they are chaos running on the screen, simple to animate, while also flexible. In order to do this, they had to cut down on details and so without going too crazy on details, characters are given a unique body type while also giving them a special accessory that can be easily identified. Every character is certainly not equally memorable or appealing but every one of them has a unique design which communicates their personalities. Also, most characters undergo a clothing change that signifies a change in their characters and current place in the story.
Also, the visuals were meant to be crazy, they were fighting in giant robots, in space, fighting monster creature things.....come on...did you think it would not be crazy? This is a pretty silly show and it is obviously meant to have absurd animation. And the Anti-spiral ships are meant to reflect the anti-spirals uncomprehensible nature that is meant to look nothing like the rest of the show or really strange ships that are out beyond the reaches of time and space.

I agree with Lorgenome being an info dispense and that being dumb though even though Nia has become more of a plot device, she still stood as a good emotional anchor and driving point for Simons development, thus it allowed him to pierce the heavens and go beyond the stars.
Yes, the time skip was somewhat boring but it also brought about very valuable world building and introduced the many new aspects. Also, it showed how each character has matured and grown. Without it, many mature aspects of Gurren Lagann would be lost.

Also, I disagree, I think almost every main character undergoes some kind of big evolution through the whole series, not just because of the time skip. Ex: Kamina from being a normal teenage ruffian into a brave and inspiring leader.

So I give it an 8/10. I totally get where you stand and agree with some but I hope I am not sounding like an annoying fan that any bad word about their favorite anime will set of a war. Maybe, just maybe, you'll see Gurren Lagann in a new light. It really isn't just a silly show as it brings a lot of subjects in consideration when dwelling deep into the story, just ignore some of the crazy stuff. Thanks for getting through it and I would love to talk and debate it more if you want!

A_Haiku_Unloose said:


Kamina was, imo, the best character, and the best developed one in series, maybe the one thing TTGL did right, and i wouldn't say he made a big trasformation/evolution, i would rather say that he was always a brave and inspiring leader, but under right circumstances (being on the surface in a war) he had the opportunity to shine and show his virtues.

On the other hand, Simon's transformation simply isn't believable enough for me, he goes on the completely polar opposite end - from a whiny kid (who is able to pull through when needed, though) to a fearless character who rushes headlong, while shouting.

Also, you misunderstood me, i said that the series before the time skip was pretty boring, not that I had a problem with the skip itself.

All in all, i simply didn't find the show enjoyable, and didn't really see much of a point in it. Except Kamina, all the characters are simply forgettable, and the story followed the formula: It's strong-we are together-we beat it; This one is bigger-we get bigger-we beat it.

If you could shed some light on what the deep subjects behind the story are, maybe i would appreciate it more, because now, I simply don't see it.

Fire13rin said:

I agree though I think he went from being crazy reckless and more into a leader after finding his father's skeleton.

It does seem unbelievable though it does have times where he obviously put his survival first, like when he pulled back from fighting the anti-spiral ships after he defeated the first.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, thanks for clearing it up. I definitely

get where you are coming from and I am deeply enjoying the conversation as I personally love debates.

The meaning of the story was not really It's strong-we are together-we beat it; This one is bigger-we get bigger-we beat it, but I can see why you would say that. Some of the story outline and the formula is the first half before the time skip is Simon coming to age while the second half, after the time skip is Simon's journey of being an adult and living in a less than ideal world. The moral is that becoming an adult is not the final of one's evolution but rather someone can truly finish their journey is when having created their ideal future and done all they could have. This is shown especially at the ending when Simon is around, 40.
These themes are set to show the spiral motif that is basically everywhere in the story, not as just a plot device but also it explains the structure of the story. Almost every episode is that of someone yelling their belief and goal and once reaching that, then going the next step further just like how a spiral always expands, so does Gurren Lagann's narrative. From a small hole underground to the galaxy, the everso expansion of the spiral is that of how we should always make progress and keep preserving on against all odds.

The deeper and mature stuff starts around episode 8 and on. When Kamina dies, the show takes an obvious turn, everything seems more depressing. The plot becomes more dreary and stalls for a bit, heavily focussing on how Simon was feeling. This was not pointless, it was supposed to make the view truly understand what Simon was feeling and communicating its ideas with coping with a tragic. Simon was soo devastated because Kamina was literally Simon's whole world. So when he was gone, Simon could not find his place and soo constantly tried to act like Kamina, thus Nia comes in who is the only character who did no compare Simon and Kamina and saw Simon's strength. And so he learns to cope with Kamina being gone and dead, instead of trying to act like Kamina, he empowers himself with the memory of Kamina, he embodies the lessons and aspects of Kamina to help him through many struggles. This is an amazing evolution that many brush off as they focus on the overall idea. Gurren Lagann showed a healthy and good way of coping with death, it's not unrealistic nor cringy.
Studio Gainax decided to tackle the idea of sociopolitics and not one that can be seen in many anime today. This is a subplot and genre that is often easily brushed off. The shows the struggle of not just the people but for Simon and Roosiu. So Rossiu's betrayal left many angry but the meaning was deep. Simon who was one of the leaders acted with his heart while Roosiu was more cold and practical. Simon is someone who is not suited for political leadership and so trying to be a leader but also stay with his morals. So when Simon messed up, the public got pissed which made Roosiu panic and use Simon as a scapegoat, to arrest and kill him. This was a hard decision which he had no one really to role model for and he himself was personally against. In Gurren Lagann world, this would have been dumb and horrible but in our's this would have been smart. While Rossiu was a realist living an ideal world like he is the opposite of an idealist living and a brutal world. So because of the fact that society was a new thing for everyone and so it also was in a world with looser boundaries than areas, so seeing how the post time skip city function is something fascinating. It showed how a tiny variable of alterations can change our way of how we view how society works. It was a very real direction the story went in.

When putting aside the crazy and silliness of the show you can find interesting topics like coping with death, sociopolitics, self-growth, and discovery.

I am not sure you will find them as something deep, but I sure did. Anyways, what do you think?

Fire13rin said:


I can definitely see why it could off as boring to others. And honestly, it came off that way some of the times for me.

Yeah, I think fewer episodes would have been better, some parts seemed tedious and annoyed and just seemed to drag on and on. I found the final episodes as the most unpleasable and boring even though for most, it was the most 'epic' part. I was simply just ready for the series to end, not because I didn't like it but I felt like it was trying to drag on.

Roosiu was definitely and still probably the most practical character which is actually really strange as seeing a practical character in a crazy world. Though everyone was first made very childish as Gainax wasn't expecting the anime to be popular and they originally meant it to just be a simple fun and silly show.
I think the guards listened because they were just guards. They didn't (probably) get an insight into the actual situation and so, they though just like the rest of the public and saw Simon as a threat. Thus they followed the best next thing, Roosiu who was going to get rid of the 'problem'

Yeah, the whole galaxy thing was quite a stretch. I understand that even though it was 'just an anime' that excuse can only cover so much for poor executed logical reasoning. I found it exciting to see what big thing would happen next but when we reached the final stage during the whole final boss fight, it was just.....I can't really describe the feeling. It was just weird and I didn't find it as enjoyable as most, I guess, I wasn't really sure what was going on since the poor logic used. For most fans, they just brushed it off and focused on the fact that two giant robots are fighting in a galaxy, but oh no, not me. My head was too busy swimming with confused questions like the whole space jump thing that the show just brushed off, not really wanting to explain it.

Yeah, Kittan dying was kind of pointless as if didn't feel as heavy as Kamina's, not just because Kamina was (in a way) better than Kittan but the died the same way. They tried to make it more heart wrenching with Kittan kissed Yoko but I just got annoyed with that. Yeah, I could see Kittan dying right when they got trapped in the wormhole thingy.

Well, I think it showed Yoko as just an old lady as to show she has found her peace and happiness. Being able to help and provide the next generation, as her character was not the one to use her fame to get what she wanted. She is the principle of the remote island school and I think it shows that she really wants to teach the next generation about the world before and show valuable lessons especially ones on senseless violence. But Yoko has really found her some true happiness and can now like a simple and peaceful life that she has thoroughly deserved.
I was quite happy that Gainax showed all the character after 20 years, something that most do not do/ I felt I really got to see all the character through their journey until the very end.
Sometimes I could just tell which character was going to die, though annoying as that can be, at least, all of Dai-Gurren's characters have heavy plot armor.

Though for animes like shojo, I found the outcome more important than the battles. While in certain other animes where the outcome was already decided for the literally very beginning (This is a very broad outlook), as in most shojos all the character did were just see who can power up more, this is how I felt for Dragon Ball. While in certain different animes, when the outcome is already decided cause the main character is overpowered, I found the journey to the predetermined outcome to be more fun. Like how many ass-pulls will characters use to get to the already decided victory, and I found ass-pulls what not to be more acceptable in these instances since they were already meant to win, anime like this is No Game No Life and Kakegurui. Also, I found that these animes revolved more about tactics than a usual shojo that was usually who can get more stronger. Still, this is very broad and I do not feel this way about some animes like I love One Piece even though the battles are more about who can get stronger.
Anyways, that huge passage relates to Gurren Lagann by me finding a mix of both of the previously stated feelings. I was excited to see what stupid thing, idea, or overpowered power up they would use to win but at the same tines, I could sometimes just yawn at how boring it could be. Kinda make sense? Maye not.

Anyways, what are your thoughts?
I find it absolutely find it very enjoyable to discuss with you and debate (not argue) about anime matters.
Honestly, I simply love debating about simply anything. Haha, I'm so weird.

A_Haiku_Unloose said:


It is interesting that you found the latter part of the show tedious, for me it was the only part that really kept my attention (other than a couple of episodes pre-time skip.

I didn't know about Gainax not wanting it to be a serious anime from the start, you read that somewhere? But it figures, i guess that's the reason I didn't like it, i like my anime to be serious (call me crazy). :D

That's some bad guards who listen to their instinct instead of obeying the Lord in charge, but I understand your point. You feel that it was more of a coup than an imprisonment.

"It's just an anime" is no excuse for poor logic, there are some brilliant anime out there that tackle with very complex subjects, and don't have plot holes and logic skips. The logic of everything in the last part of TTGL I wouldn't even comment, for me it felt like the show was trying to be smart by uttering a bunch of nonsense and failed miserably.

Of course, it was predictable, and I agree on your view of Yoko's life after the battle, I just don't see why all her love interests had to die, that part seemed undeserved. Is it karmic punishment for brushing off Simon?

I understand the thing about overpowered MCs and stuff, I enjoyed Naruto even if, like your said, the outcome of the battles was predetermined, I loved the way they got to that result. In TTGL it was not the case, I was mostly bored. So that's why it's so low in my book - didn't like the results, but also didn't like the journey. The battles were not exciting for me, but dull.

Some of the characters I did enjoy, and I loved Kamina's "believe in me who believes in you/ believe in you" etc, those were my favorite thoughts in the anime.
I understand that for plot reasons he needed to die, but from my perspective, his death hurt the show more than it helped him.

It's not wierd, and for me it is funny that we even got into a discussion, because I just wanted to type "I'm disappointed in this show" and move on with my life, but ended up heaving a pleasant discussion about it, and learned about some interesting views on it, that are different than mine, so I guess it wasn't all just a huge waste of time. :)

accela said:
I'm still upset that Episode 1's intro wasn't Episode 27's end...

Xaelath said:

I dont think its not about flaws.
Every anime had flaws.

Xaelath said:


Its about the moral of the story.
Its about the story it trying to tell.