Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans 2nd Season Episode 14 Discussion

Nicromatic said:
Wait so why does Iok hate Tekkadan so much that he's stooping so low?

Vargr said:
Where is my damn spyair opening?!

Arawaj said:
I just realized something:
- Only male in Turbines is Naze
- All members of Turbines are wives of Naze
- TURBINES HAVE 50 000 members [info from this episode]

Naze == Harem King ???

Arawaj said:
I just realized something:
- Only male in Turbines is Naze
- All members of Turbines are wives of Naze
- TURBINES HAVE 50 000 members [info from this episode]

Naze == Harem King ???

yuriski said:

But most of all...if it's that easy to take out a branch of Teiwaz...why has Gjallarhorn never done this before? And I thought they lost most of their influence anyway, so how come they can just declare Turbines illegal and everyone goes with it?

JizzyHitler said:
because the only reason turbines were this eays to take out was cause someone in inside teiwaz was the one delivering the final blow, also it was circumstantial the reason naze and the turbines are going down is because tekkadan sent them an illegal machine which got out due to the hashmal incident. It wasnt an easy thing ghallajhhorn could do whenever this was all due to IOK and the teiwaz leader's son that this happened cause ghallajhorn doesnt give a fuck about the turbines, even rustal and his faction dont seem to care this is all IOK working on his own doing this out of revenge against tekkadan.

yuriski said:
Now that I had some time to think things over and let everything settle...

I am so fking mad at the author!

Not because Naze and Amida are going to die (I knew this was gonna happen evenually).

Rather it's the incredible cheap way this author goes for the melodrama.
First we learn Naze rescued and employed 50.000 women and then, just like that, the Turbines are history and those same women are (probably) back to the same shit as before.
Then we have the very fact that the Hammerhead is home to fking infants!

But most of all...if it's that easy to take out a branch of Teiwaz...why has Gjallarhorn never done this before? And I thought they lost most of their influence anyway, so how come they can just declare Turbines illegal and everyone goes with it?

yuriski said:
Did we watch the same episode? The turbines got framed by Gjallarhorn with that illegal railcannon Iok took. And to frame them they only needed catch one ship. Which can't be that hard when the Turbines have dozens.

AoiHonoo said:
The plot convenience has always been rather blatant. Since the beginning actually
-Kudelia's dad sells her out to never appear again, because his job was done.
-Maruba uses the freaking war machine as a generator and leaves his freaking spaceship only to come back later for it with the Turbines, just so Tekkadan could have allies and funding.
-An entire protest becomes a set up to cull a rebellion. The reason for the protest is for vague reasons, and Gjallarhorn actually spent a lot of money and time on this for some reason just for a few workers, and the incident gets resolved offscreen, because it's purpose was done.
-Fumitan was apparently placed by Kudelia since her young days, because Nobliss somehow knew she's become what she is now.
-Biscuit having an older brother on Dort that was brought up just before he became relevant.
-The way Biscuit died
-Ein getting AV implants
-Rustal orchestrating an entire war just to discredit someone, which again was resolved shortly afterwards, because it's purpose was completed.
-The way Aston died
-And the plot device that is Iok who was both needed for the entire MA arc and starting this one.

Obeley said:

- Kudelia said it herself in season 2 that she avoided her dad and her house for the time being. Probably because a mix of bitterness and not caring anymore.
- Maruba finding Barbatos and used it for generator and sold its parts is what started his CGS business. It’s written in the side materials & model kit manual before IBO TV series even started.
- The Dort incident is a two-pronged setup by Nobliss Gordon & the Arianrhod. Nobliss coerce the workers to do some armed revolt and setup Kudelia & Tekkadan for their encouragement, while the Arianrhod already setting up their traps to wipe out the rebellious protesters. That’s why it escalated that quickly. And the protest reasoning is demanding welfare for the workers. What’s so vague about that. That kind of protest happened all the time IRL. The act happened a long time ago, yet, it amazed me how some people still don’t get it.
- Planting a spy inside a ruling family of Mars seems like legit reason for someone like Gordon who thrives through conflicts. And political interest is deeply related to it. And if Nobliss can afford to do it, why not?
- I give you that one point about Biscuit’s brother as I also found it too convenient.
- Shit happens.
- Why is that a problem? It’s part of the world building in which the Graze Ein is an early way to establish what next-level AV system is capable of doing. And with that also encourage Mika/Barbie to go early Berserk mode which ws then perfected during the MA fight.
- Rustal is just being an ass by orchestrating that war for selfish purposes. That’s part of his character. Also, rather than fully-resolved, the issue was stopped dead on its track because McGillis has no evidence to point his finger at Rustal thanks to Galan. That sly tactic and planning is also part of Rustal’s character.
- Rather than a plot convenient, I’d say it’s telegraphed too obviously and a bit clichéd. But not bad or terrible. It moves the plot forward and it’s not pointless either.
- Classic storytelling is classic. Without Dennis Nedry’s blunder, the whole event in Jurassic Park also wouldn’t happen. Yet almost nobody has any issues with that. The same thing also applied to the MA-arc.

AoiHonoo said:
Again which is convenient, to avoid dealing with that issue. The father was just needed to start the plot. Once that was done, he was never planned to show up again, or ever have Kudelia deal with that problem.

The thing about the workers is even though they said they were being treated bad, there was no visual representation that they were. Were their working conditions poor, was the work too demanding? Anime animators have it hard too, but you don't see them taking up arms and coercing better treatment. The extreme resort to taking up weapons was heavy handed and convenient for plot purposes which was my point.

In other words, Ein got the AV system; something he should have been too old for, just so that stuff could happen to Mikazuki and showcase something for the next season. How was that not plot convenience?

I'm not talking about Rustal as a character. Rustal could've handled it in a myriad of ways, like framing or tabloid media. Heck, he has Galileo of all people. Instead of hiding his identity, they could call McGillis out any time. However, none of those would have gotten Tekkadan or rather the Earth Branch involved, so it went in the direction of the way it did just to have them involved.

Let me say that I'm not saying the show is terrible because it has plot convenience. No, every story is going to have that in some way. I'd only say its flaw is how often and blatant they are to move the story forward.

Obeley said:

You need to understand that the major trait of a “plot convenience” is coincidence. Plot convenience happens when coincidences must take place to move the story forward (look for the definition). With that established, let me address your points:

- Kudelia’s dad missing is not a plot convenience because there’s no coincidences involved. He sold out his daughter to Corral -> Corral’s plan to kill Kudelia failed -> Kudelia’s dad’s relevance to the story stopped with Corral’s failure when Tekkadan left Mars with Kudelia to Earth. Just like how Yajirobe & Mutenroshi are not that relevant in DBZ Freeza/Namek Arc. Heck, Nobliss was a lot more relevant to the plot than Kudelia's dad because he funded Kudelia's trip & Tekkadan. When IBO Season 2 started, Kudelia outright explained that she was avoiding her parents and her house. That’s why we never see her dad again because the story follows her so far until Kudelia decide to finally confront him again or maybe when the writer decide to involve the Bernstein family in the future. Again, not plot convenience.

- We have the worker outright stated how shitty their life and working condition is. Heck, even Orga said that the neighborhood where the workers live are shitty compared to the rest of the Dort colonies. What more details that you want? The workers’ paychecks? Again, not plot convenience.

- Too old to be done by organizations outside Gjallarhorn maybe. But considering that Gjallrhorn holds all kinds of banned and secret technology from the Calamity War (except for Mobile Armors), it’s not a stretch to believe that they have better technology compared to CGS/Tekkadan & Teiwaz. Heck, the Gunpla manuals even mentioned that, so far, Teiwaz still can’t produce their own Mobile Suit’s Ahab reactors like Gjallarhorn. They relied on scavenging & the black market to get their reactors. And don’t forget that Ein was also a special case at the time in which he was already near death and his body was getting the Robocop treatment so they can practically do anything with his body. Ein wanted to do it, Gaelio wanted to do it, and McGillis provided it with his family’s resources. Again, not plot convenience. More like intentional action by the characters.

- Eh, that was Rustal’s preference to use Galan. Also, it’s revealed in the latest episode that Rustal was considering revealing Gaelio/Vidar’s identity to screw McGillis but Vidar is not willing to do it yet because he still want to investigate the truth of McGillis’ true intention that made him betray Gaelio. So, Screwing Tekkadan branch was intentional action by Rustal & Galan after the other option was out. We just happen to see the plan happening from Tekkadan branch’s POV. No coincidence, no plot convenience.

After all the above, I don’t think the plot convenience is as blatant as you claimed.

AoiHonoo said:
It's this tell, don't show approach is why so many things are convenient. The show just expects you to believe whatever exposition the characters are saying with out much visual representation. We're just supposed to believe that the workers are doing poorly because the workers and Orga said. Sure, you can do it that way, but it's not an effective way of storytelling, because the plot is only going forward based on a situation that is mostly told to us. Those workers are rebelling because their worker conditions are crap; they're crap because they say so, which leads into important plot points based on this flimsy worldbuilding. Dort tried to convey so much in so little, and really railroaded the plot in a specific direction in a way that wasn't natural and very heavy handed. And that it was all tied to Kudelia's very forced character development makes it the pinnacle of string of coincidences just to have the result.

How can you not even treat the kicker of the plot as plot convenience? A good portion of stories tend to begin as this. In this franchise, it's synonymous with an inexperienced bystander falling into the cockpit. It's not an outright flaw. Her trip is meant to be a secret. Hey, let's have one of the few people who knows tell the greedy official about the secret. And then after that never show him again. It's like Alisha in the Tales of Zestiria game serving as a living call to adventure to Sorey, and then after that leave the party for the rest of game, but at least you could still see her at certain instances, so you know she didn't completely disappear.

That's just a theory though. The show in no way confirms or denies it. Rather, McGillis needed something to discredit Gjallarhorn and show how hypocritical they are. We're going to break the rules we established earlier to do that.

Vidar's line is just a poor excuse to justify leaving McGillis at large, because he still has schemes to implement. You can't even blame the characters for the decisions they make when it's the writers being so intentionally selective in order to have the plot go forward in the way visioned. It doesn't even have to make sense, because it's not meant to. What about Almiria who he knows is still engaged to who he should consider to be a dangerous person, former friend or not. If the writing wasn't so selective, his priority would be her safety.

Obeley said:
After all those long argument, you still didn't address the core of this debate which is: Coincidence.

Is the storytelling flawed? Hell yes. But at the very least, they explained things and don't rely on coincidences. One example being the events in Dort started to happen so fast once our protags arrived there because Nobliss and Gjallarhon set it up from the start down to the armed revolt and Kudelia's attempted assassination. The only coincidence was Savarin being Biscuit's brother. But other than that, the events have a very good reason to happen. You don't like the "tell not show" approach? Okay. You don't like the "kicker of the plot? Sure, but that's not what we call "plot convenience" that rely heavily on coincidence. Again, try to actually look up for the definition of a term before you label something with it. As long as you don't apply the actual meaning of the term, all your argument so far is moot.

AoiHonoo said:
How is what I listed NOT examples of plot convenience? Okay Nobliss and Gjallarhorn set up Dort? Nice that they managed to plan both their gambits at the same time, and complimented each other so well. Kudelia's dad selling her out for "reasons", and he just disappears shortly after never to be seen again to be confronted about it. Vidar not revealing who he is, when he has no freaking reason to hide his identity just so McGillis can continue his plans. Gjallarhorn using forbidden technology on McGillis' order no less on someone who is too old to even have it, and it just so happens to bypass that rule, just so Gjallarhorn gets discredited, but the one who even paved the way for it doesn't have a single consequence happen to him.

Obeley said:

Again, not many coincidences. Let me break down the Dort event to you as an example:

First, Nobliss coerced the workers to do armed revolt and he synchronized that plan with the arrival of the Kudelia & Tekkadan who unknowingly smuggled Nobliss’ supply of firearms and weaponized Mobile Workers which are meant for the Union Workers. It’s all courtesy of Nobliss’ GN Company thanks to his cooperation with Barriston from Teiwaz.

Second, Savarin who is an ex-union worker, but remains loyal and in contact with the Head of the Union (Navona) knew about the planned revolt and already in attempted negotiation with the colony higher-ups before Tekkadan arrived in Dort to stop the chaos from spreading and settle things in peace. But the colony higher-ups reported the would-be event to Gjallarhorn instead, and Savarin knew there’s gonna be manslaughter if Gjallarhorn (in this case, Arianrhod) is involved.


Third, at the same time, after receiving the news from the Colony higher-ups, Gjallarhorn are already preparing to slaughter the workers who are gonna do the revolt with all the traps & tricks we see in the episode.

Fourth, once Savarin knew Kudelia & Tekkadan came to Dort (thanks to his relation with Navona), he made a deal with Gjallarhorn to stop the would-be slaughter by giving them Kudelia. The rest is history as you can see in the show.

I (and many IBO fans that I know) get all those from the episodes alone, whether it’s from the info spoken by the characters or using logic and putting two and two together. So, you see, if you can actually keep up with the story, there’s actually no coincidences with the Dort Revolt except for Savarin being Biscuit’s brother which is not that relevant to the bigger picture, just giving Biscuit & Atra something more to do. So again, not plot convenience because 90-95% of it is not coincidental.

Also, it is already blatantly stated that Gundam pilots of old are using AV-system and that they had much better technology than what the current world have. And Gjallarhorn still have some of that (now forbidden) technology as evidenced when they make the Graze Ein & Deinsleif. That, plus Ein’s special condition at the time doesn’t make such a leap of logic that they can do AV to Ein. Besides, the characters who told us that AV can’t be done to older people are all spacenoids, not Earthlings who are part of Gjallarhorn. That’s not plot convenice. That’s part of the mystery of the past war that the show reveals gradually.

Again, if there is no coincidence, there is no plot convenience. Read the definition of plot convenience. Most of what you described above (that I haven’t addressed) are more plot holes waiting to be explained than plot convenience (eg. Norman Bernstein’s motivation).

AoiHonoo said:
I don't know where you got the idea Nobliss coerced the workers to do an armed revolt. The only things he's responsible for are the weapons that the workers willingly acquired themselves, and the sniper that was meant to martyr Kudelia.

AoiHonoo said:
Even with the weapons, the workers still thought and declared they were doing a "peaceful" protest even though they were armed.

AoiHonoo said:
You ignored how no one seemed to have ever seen a picture or video of Kudelia before so that both Savarin and Gjallarhorn could confuse her for Atra, so that plotline would happen, even though some random worker managed to recognize her later.

AoiHonoo said:
You ignored how even much convenience there was for Gjallarhorn to sabotage their own equipment, for the leaps in logic they took that relied on nothing but a string of coincidences that happened to go their way because plot said so: that the remaining workers would get into a rage to actually revolt this time, that they would be so much in a rage to not notice how easy it was steal some mobile suits, and that they would even take those mobile suits out into space for some reason and not where they shooting even happened. And why did they need to be in space? So that Kudelia could do her gambit! How very lucky she happened to run into the very people she would need to broadcast her message.

Obeley said:

Did you not paid attention to what the workers told Tekkadan the moment Orga step in the Dort hangar? They said they’ve been expecting the “maiden of revolution and her knights” to start the armed revolt. That’s something neither Kudelia nor Tekkadan have any idea of. And then Orga asked them where all that nonsense came from and the workers said it’s from Kudelia/Tekkadan’s benefactor (aka. Nobliss, who is working together with Teiwaz). It’s more than just a clue that Nobliss’ faction has been throwing this idea to the workers to start revolting (it’s Scooby-Doo-level of obvious). Mind you that Nobliss is also an arms-dealer, so more armed conflict means more money for him. And please note that Nobliss had smuggled his weapons into Tekkadan’s ship way back at Saisei during the Sakazuki before the pirate arc. So he has been planning this for quite some time which also indirectly stated to us that the instability in Dort colonies has also been going on for quite some time. All Nobliss needed is to deliver the trigger (Kudelia/Tekkadan) to start the fireworks and the Dort workers just ate it up.

I ignored it because that’s called Plot-Hole, not Plot-Convenience. Please learn to differentiate between the two. In fact, almost the entirety of this debate happens because you’re being unable to differentiate between Plot Hole & Plot Convenience. Read the goddamn definition.

Savarin being Biscuit’s brother is Plot Convenience because it uses god-level of Coincidence even though it was explained by Biscuit.

Gjallarhorn foot-soldiers & Savarin not knowing what Kudelia looks like is a Plot-Hole because it was never explained how or why they didn’t recognize her when a worker did.

Gjallarhorn’s plan in sabotaging the workers’ MSs & shuttles is just an additional layer of their anticipation and preparation. Let’s say the other workers remain calm after watching their comrades got wiped out by the machine guns, what would happen then? The answer is: Nothing much. Gjallarhorn will just go on subduing any other rebel workers on foot if necessary. Gjallarhorn won’t suffer any loss, and when things are back under control, they can fix those MSs & shuttles that they had sabotaged if the Dort higher-up requests it. It’s too bad that not all workers are as smart as Savarin (duh, he was the one able to climb up the career stairs higher than them) and acted too predictably and their raging with emotion certainly doesn’t make their situation any better (btw, it’s no stretch to think that Gjallarhorn has been doing this all the time considering they have been ruling the space for 300 years. It’s most likely a routine for them.).

And why use MSs & ships in space? Well, in case you didn’t pay attention, in IBO-verse, Mobile Suits & space ships that uses Ahab reactors are forbidden to enter and operate within residential area because the effects are akin to EMP that’s going to fry important electronical devises inside their people’s houses that’s not built to withstand the Ahab waves. Did you notice that both Gjallarhorn & Workers are only using armed Mobile Workers in the city? That’s because they don’t want their city to be fried. It’s also written in the Gunpla manuals and side materials. Heck even the show itself made a big deal of it in the final fight of Season 1 where Graze Ein was wreaking havoc in the city and dealt a huge blow to Gjallarhorn’s reputation for breaking the important law that’s akin to common sense. So, why would the workers want to operate the MSs inside the colony and fry their own city? Better take them out to space to kick Gjallarhorn in the ass because that’s where the forces of Gjallarhorn are. Sadly, in their rage, the workers fall for the trap and got nearly wiped out.

There you have it, I’ve addressed all your points. Anything that I missed? And even if I do, almost none of them are really plot-convenience which is the core of your entire argument.

AoiHonoo said:
And it's not Nobliss setting up the Dort workers alone that's plot convenience. Just that it also happens during Gjallrhorn's plan, and due to a situation the viewers are just now knowing about are all factors. The plot can say that these people and organizations had this planned for awhile. It doesn't change that the viewers are getting this info in quick succession, one on top of another, and that it was the basis for the other plot points to happen. And that's not a flaw in itself; it's just the way it's executed, and how heavy-handed it is. How the Dort workers resorted to acquiring weapons because of a crappy situation we're only told about. That Nobliss enticed them to do it is just saying they didn't have minds of their own to refuse him, and be mere plot devices to move the plot forward. Also, Gjallalrhorn had to set this up in conjunction with the workers getting the weapons in order for their plan to even have a chance to work. Something they had no chance of knowing ahead of time. "Oh, there's suspicious activity going on with the workers. Quick investigate! *after the shoot out and retreat* They acquired weapons and got into a shoot out with our forces? Quick set up the bomb and mobile suits for our ridiculous roundabout plan. Contact the fleet so that they'll be in position." "But sir, we don't have enough time!" And while Tekkadan refuses to help at first, situations arise that get them to prolong their stay until they're urged too, that started with Biscuit's brother, and how he gets Biscuit and Atra captured, which leads to a chain of events I go into further in the next paragraph.

AoiHonoo said:
Look how much relied on Biscuit and Atra getting captured, by that mistake. It prolonged Tekkadan's stay when they wanted to get out of there asap. Made sure to leave Kudelia and Fumitan alone while the remainder of Tekkadan go search for them, leaving McGillis to come into contact with them. How he even managed to come into contact with them could be summed up as mere coincidence, and that he immediately reveals Fumitan's secret (something he also conveniently knows) which in turn gets her to walk off leaving Kudelia to chase after her, but for some reason Fumitan got a good head start when she was just walking. And that lead to Tekkadan having to go look for the both of them after Mikazuki finds Biscuit and Atra, consuming even more time for the shooting to happen. Don't write it off as a mere plot hole, as if it didn't serve as a catalyst for other events to happen.

AoiHonoo said:
No, you're ignoring the propaganda element. The entire sweep was meant to frame the workers as rebels. That's what the explosion was for, and why they left their mobile suits unguarded. It was not a "just in case" type of plan; they needed the workers to go into a frenzy and steal the mobile suits to cement them as rebels. Otherwise why go through such a roundabout way.

AoiHonoo said:
Yeah, sure, because the workers who are too caught up in a frenzy to not notice they're being further led into a trap are still going to care about something like that. You can't have such selective reasoning. Either they're too much in a frenzy to care about anything, or their anger gets mitigated enough to realize they don't want to harm the colony, and with that start realizing how unnatural the way they stole those mobile suits, or you know, have a balance between the two, but that obviously would have taken too much effort for mere plot devices. And the workers are quickly forgotten once Tekkadan enters the fray making that even more apparent.

Obeley said:

Didn’t you read my post? Nobliss suggested the armed protest to workers and they planned to do it when Kudelia & Tekkadan arrived on Dort which Nobliss already put into motion at the end of the pirate arc with the assistance of Fumitan before the end credits of the funeral episode ended -> Savarin knew about the plan (thanks to his relation to Navona) and negotiate for a better solution with the Dort higher-ups -> being Gjallarhorn puppets that they are (just like Norman Bernstein), the higher-ups reported it to Gjallarhorn (it’s safe to say that Nobliss already knew it’s going this way considering his years of experience in the business) -> Gjallarhorn had more than enough time to plan & take action behind the scene (and to rig all those MSs & shuttles if necessary) -> then Gjallarhorn did a mock-crackdown in the date the workers are said to do the armed protest and saw the workers already got their weapons and pulled out quickly so their plan to massacre them in the field with the MW machine guns can move forward. The slaughtering of the workers in the field is the main plan of Gjallarhorn, not the rigged MSs. The plan with the rigged MSs & shuttles actually working is pretty much an extra bonus for them. Also, you’d be surprised how easy unsatisfied lowly workers (that have been living deficient lives) are to be swayed to do some anarchy toward what they see as their “oppressors”. It happens so many times IRL. Watch the news of events that happen in third-world countries and you’ll see.


Eh, you do realize that Plot Holes can move a story forward, right? Right? If you don’t, then News Flash: Plot Holes can serve as a catalyst for other events and move the story forward. Ever heard of the 60s campy Batman series? That entire shows’ story is driven by plot holes. Ever heard of Sword Art Online? The entire first arc of that anime was driven by a plot hole in which the villain that set up the whole “trapped in MMO”-thing did it for no apparent reason than just for the lulz (not mentioning some other plot holes in the show). And the effect even carried over to the second act. Ever heard of Star Wars: The Force Awakens? That movie was so driven by plot holes it’s not even funny. That’s just three examples out of hundreds of fiction that’s driven by plot holes. With that, your argument above is moot.


The workers are already wielding freakin’ assault riffles on their hands and drove armed Mobile Workers inside the colonies. They don’t really need the workers to pilot MSs to frame them as rebels. Those workers are already framed once Gjallarhorn detonated that bomb in the building. Again, them taking out the rigged MSs & shuttles is a very nice bonus for wiping out even more workers for Gjallarhorn albeit already anticipated to a degree.


Did you forget that the workers have families inside the city in the colonies as shown by Navona? Fighting Gjallarhorn with riffles & MWs is one thing, but fighting them with MSs? Do you know how massive they are compared to MWs? Let’s put aside the Ahab reactor effect for now (which is still important, btw), the workers doing MS battles with Gjallrhorn in the middle of a colony and city will bring so much destruction that will pretty much kill their own families (if you’ve seen as many Gundam series as me, you’d realize that having big MS battles inside a colony is a big no-no and will only resulted in mass destruction & deaths of the city & people and in many occasions even the entire colony will get destroyed because of it). I mean, you can be in the middle of a rage as a neglected worker wanting a more decent life, but you have to be insane to not care about your family’s lives. As bad as Gjallarhorn is, I don’t think they’ll gun down women and children who aren’t considered rebels. I think the workers are counting on that and decided to vent to the Gjallarhorn fleet outside the colonies where they can fight more freely. It's simple logic.

So there you go. Any more complaints?

BurntJelly said:
Decent quality setup episode.

It looks like Turbines will be wiped out. I wonder how long it will be before Lafter is back with Tekkadan. With luck, she'll get a little more screen time in the process.

AoiHonoo said:
If you need a plot hole to move a story forward, how is that not plot convenience? A plot hole itself is a convenience when you make use of it, because you couldn't move the story the direction you wanted in any coherent or natural way. It doesn't make any sense for Savarin and Gjallarhorn to not know what Kudelia looks like, but some random worker later does when she stumbled upon that protest, even worse when that one worker needed to be a human shield for her minutes later, because then, the only reason to have that worker recognize her was to do just that.

Same with the workers stealing the mobile suits. Like you said, the weapons would have been enough. However, plot dictated they needed to go out there for Kudelia to do her gambit. The point is how heavy handed it was handled. These workers are so far gone, but they still care about their families to not want to damage the colony. Still, they also didn't give much thought to how their families would be troubled by them charging the fleet, marching down the streets with weapons, or when they ordered the weapons in the first place. Where's the consistency? And Gjallarhorn wouldn't have positioned a freaking fleet outside on a "just in a case". If the weapons were enough, there was no reason for Gjallarhorn to even allow it in the first place. But again plot needed them outside in space so again, consistency takes a backseat. And the show itself portrays it as it was all part of the plan as they blocked all the airwaves outside their own while running their propaganda. Again, you don't have something like that in place for a "just in case". It's just wasting time and resources if it doesn't happen.

Would Savarin know the workers got weapons? He knew they were going to protest, but did he know about the weapons? Some of the workers doubted if he was still on their side, showing how out of contact he's been. And even if Gjallarhorn knew about the weapons, they wouldn't know when they would arrive until after the fact so you still have timing issues. Even if they suspected the next supply shipment, it could have the next one or the next one. Without confirmation, they're just guessing. It's not like they could tell via Tekkadan's ship since they didn't have their ship docked for obvious reasons, and wouldn't clear up the timing issues regardless.

And McGillis, in this arc all he does is reveal Fumitan's secret, after stumbling upon her and Kudelia by accident. And after that does nothing. Heck McMurdo only does one thing too, when he's hundreds of miles away, and only has a general idea what's going on. How could he have been so sure Kudelia wasn't killed the moment he called. He would have been made the biggest idiot had Kudelia actually been shot, and she only wasn't because not one but two characters acted as human shields for her, and even then, the bullets still should have pierced those bodies and hit her anyway. You have too many characters acting as blatant plot devices to move the plot forward. And the plot relies on characters going missing twice for Tekkadan to search around aimlessly twice to find them so they stay in this area long enough for workers to get massacred and the remainder going into a frenzy losing all rational that they go to steal mobile suits. And they're so entrapped in anger none of them think, "oh hey this was really easy, that's unnatural", and yet aren't in enough anger that they still care about damaging the colony, so they go out into space instead, and charge the freaking fleet that they somehow now know is out there. And Gjallarhorn is airing the fight inside the colony spewing propaganda, but it's really only needed to let Tekkadan know what's going on. "Hey guys, this is where the plot is, you need to go there."

But wait, Kudelia can't do her thing without someone to broadcast it. Hello, reporter and cameraman they luckily run into during the chaos. Still, the airwaves are being blocked, but communications still work, thank goodness! Let's have Kudelia call the person who tried to have her killed her just a few moments ago, and have her" use" him, and he only agrees because McMurdo called him before, and he just listens for "reasons". Okay, we have all we need now. Let Kudelia do her thing, and it works, except there's at least rumors circulating about that Kudelia or at least her benefactor was the reason the workers even got those weapons in the first place, and they don't use it discredit her and shot their ship down, because then the show would be over!

AoiHonoo said:

-An entire protest becomes a set up to cull a rebellion. The reason for the protest is for vague reasons, and Gjallarhorn actually spent a lot of money and time on this for some reason just for a few workers, and the incident gets resolved offscreen, because it's purpose was done.

Obeley said:
Man, IBO episode 40 was so good that I forgot about this little argument. So, what do we have here? Hmm…


It seems you seriously confuse “convenience” with “plot convenience”.
Is plot hole “convenient”? Yes
Is plot hole also a “plot convenience”? No, because plot convenience need Coincidence to happen.

Here’s a definition/condition of "plot convenience" so that you can’t (intentionally) confuse it again:
“Plot convenience happens when coincidences must take place in order for the plot to advance.”

And let me go back to your original argument regarding Dort:
I already answered most of your original points above about “protest turned into rebellion” and “protesting for vague reasons”. No Plot convenience there. And to address your last point, the anime already explained how the incident was resolved offscreen. Whether or not you like how they do it is your business. The anime already done its job to tie up that loose ends. Again, no Coincidences and thus, no Plot Convenience. And you don’t even know how much money Gjallarhorn spent compared to their resources. Gjallarhorn is an extremely wealthy organization. For all we know, this is just a routine operation for them, both in scale and budget. That captain that accompanied Gaelio at the time did imply that this is how they’ve been doing things for some time (as in, years). See, I already negate all your original points about it being plot convenience. So, my job here is basically done.

Now, you bringing all the plot convenience surrounding Kudelia’s recognizability and McMurdo’s timing when he talked to Nobliss, etc is just you “moving the goal post” to plot conveniences that I never argue to begin with. I already answered and negate your original points and that’s enough. I have no interest in answering your “goal-post shifting”. That’s a childish way to do argument.

AoiHonoo said:

The "tell, don't show" approach is constantly shown to be an ineffective and lazy way of storytelling that should be avoided. What a character says is taken as infallible truth, despite little to no evidence or even contradicting facts that were already established but forgotten. It's characters like Nobliss, Radice and McGillis who lie through their teeth, or bend the truth to fit their views is one reason this method of storytelling is flawed. A viewer cannot get invested by mostly words, and characters act like blatant plot devices when certain events exist just to have them act a certain way during or for a later incident, even to the point of ignoring previous notions of their character and trying to justify this change in behavior. Why did Nobliss listen to McMurdo? There's little to no basis for it; a pawn that tries to use it's chessmaster is still a pawn. Why did Kudelia automatically believe what McGillis said about Fumitan? It would be more natural to write him off as an eccentric person and ignore him.

Yeah, let's resolve the whole thing offscreen, showing how it was only important to make things happen for our characters. And if it only existed to make changes in main or recurring characters, then how is it not plot convenience? I don't need to read the show's rhetoric, fan speculations, or "other shows or movies did it, so it's okay." The main point was about the execution itself and how events link together to move the story along, because even if the show's explanations make a degree of sense, it's the execution that will determine whether viewers see it as a natural development or the writers pulling stuff out their buts. And I listed each instance where Dort needed to have a specific event happen in a very specific way to make things go the way the anime staff planned.

Atra only needed to go with Biscuit so that both could get captured, but why did Savarin even assume the girl Biscuit was with was Kudelia? Why didn't he just try to get a location of where the rest were staying through basic questions to later tell Gjallarhorn, and only resort to capture as a last resort? Going farther, what was the point of even Savarin's existence other than this and Biscuit's dilemma later. However, even changing a few of those scenes like not having Atra tag along or removing Savarin entirely would have changed the events later due to this incident's importance as a catalyst, and also no Atra torture scene that was designed to play on viewers' emotions. Why did McGillis have to meet Kudelia and Fumitan by coincidence just to reveal her secret? And why did they even pay attention to this stranger who for Kudelia is concerned is just spouting out crap, and why would McGillis even start with that if not to force the plot to go in a certain direction. He could have actually tried to get close to Kudelia to have him be by her side for a while. He could even have suggested that he would help search for Biscuit and Atra while secretly letting Fumitan know he knows her secret and acting as a bodyguard to Kudelia. No! That's not clever at all! And again it would change the events later drastically.

McMurdo only calls Nobliss to get him to change his mind. All the workers get into a frenzy, after the shoot out and yet still make the rational decision to go out into space. Gjallarhorn didn't use Nobliss' propaganda and rumors of Kudelia providing the weapons to the workers through her benefactor to discredit her and shoot down the ship, because then the story would be over.

When you have instance after instance that relies so heavily on the other, and when your viewer could have thought of very viable alternatives, but also realize that would also change subsequent events, how can the Dort arc not be summed up as a string of coincidences. And not long after, that arc was resolved offscreen, letting the viewer know how not important it or the workers' struggle was in general, and that it was just to make a few changes in a couple of characters, Kudelia in particular, and Biscuit because of what later happens to Savarin.

Smudy said:
God damn, Iok. Your idiocy never fails to surprise me even more.

Doesn't look good for the Turbines.