| I watched Aku no Hana. It was an exceedingly cringeworthy and painful experience. I scoffed at every character. I skipped scenes because they were too fucking cringeworthy. I groaned in agony at the idiocy of the whole story. But.. At the same time, I know that the story is not entirely contrived. Middle Schoolers do tend to be extremely retarded at times and it's believable that something like this might have happened, in which case I have to admit that the story was very well delivered. I liked the animation and the soundscape. I liked that it took itself seriously apropos its intended audience (middle schoolers?) and I acknowledge the fact that maybe for someone else this story can have great meaning. What should I base my judgment on? I guess it boils down to 'objective vs subjective' view in that my subjective experience was that it was painful to watch, and my objective perception is that it was a good effort. I'm torn between rating it 7/10 and 2/10. How do I go about it? PS I've faced this problem for several anime but it wasn't as extreme before. For example, I loved the subject matter of Dr. Stone but I hated the execution. I was torn between 5 and 7 and I ended up rating 6 -- fair enough. So this isn't just Aku no Hana problem. |
| Imagine rating a show 2/10 because you couldn't handle it 😂 |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
| 7+2=9 9/2=4.5 so rate it 5 if you're feeling nice If you wanna feel smart rate it 4 because sqrt(2*7)=4 |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| Wtf are you talking about? There is no objective criteria to rate anime. Just rate it depending on how you enjoyed it. No one should really care about the amount of effort put into an anime if, in the end, you ended up hating it. Enjoyment is what matter. In the context of Aku no Hana, it was purposely trying to make the audience discomfort and embarrassed. You may not like it and it's perfectly fine. Don't try to take this too seriously. In some case, I come back to edit my rating of some anime I had controversy with. With having enough to digest the show and taking time to think about it, my opinion may differ from my first impression. So I recommend rating by your first impression first, and then come back edit the score if necessary after a while. No score is definitive. |
Thanakos said: I watched Aku no Hana. It was an exceedingly cringeworthy and painful experience. I scoffed at every character. I skipped scenes because they were too fucking cringeworthy. I groaned in agony at the idiocy of the whole story. But.. At the same time, I know that the story is not entirely contrived. Middle Schoolers do tend to be extremely retarded at times and it's believable that something like this might have happened, in which case I have to admit that the story was very well delivered. I liked the animation and the soundscape. I liked that it took itself seriously apropos its intended audience (middle schoolers?) and I acknowledge the fact that maybe for someone else this story can have great meaning. What should I base my judgment on? I guess it boils down to 'objective vs subjective' view in that my subjective experience was that it was painful to watch, and my objective perception is that it was a good effort. I'm torn between rating it 7/10 and 2/10. How do I go about it? PS I've faced this problem for several anime but it wasn't as extreme before. For example, I loved the subject matter of Dr. Stone but I hated the execution. I was torn between 5 and 7 and I ended up rating 6 -- fair enough. So this isn't just Aku no Hana problem. Honestly, you should read the manga, continue on where the anime ended. I think the anime already did a great job of delivering what it was supposed to but the manga goes even further. Yes, some scenes were painful to watch but I think that was the beauty of this show. |
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| While I can appreciate the sentiment of wanting to be lenient on something you found some potential value in, I also don't see the point of giving a positive score to a show you felt was "exceedingly cringeworthy and painful." If you didn't like the overall experience then your score should probably communicate this. Personally I think that a great premise means nothing if it's executed poorly. |
FMmatron said: That happens to everybody, what ur talking about, OP?Imagine rating a show 2/10 because you couldn't handle it 😂 You should base it on the chara design and their design is pretty fucking bad. Go read the manga. |
Hrybami said: In the context of Aku no Hana, it was purposely trying to make the audience discomfort and embarrassed. You may not like it and it's perfectly fine. Don't try to take this too seriously. That's what I recognize, and that's why I'm having this problem. It would be idiotic of me to rate something based on what it is not. The show was clearly not trying to be agreeable; it was trying to be a certain type of uncomfortable (for its intended audience -- since I'm not a part of that, I felt a different sort of uncomfortable). You and @Tylaen both point out that there is no such thing as an 'objective' criteria but that's just sweeping the problem under the rug. I loved the premise of Dr. Stone and I liked the character Senkuu but those subjective impressions did very little to alleviate the discomfort of objective ass-pulls. So even in things you enjoy, there are some objective considerations going on. I've never agreed with the idea that tastes in art are entirely subjective, because if that were so then everyone who's ever experienced a 'maturation of tastes' is a liar. FMmatron said: Imagine rating a show 2/10 because you couldn't handle it 😂 I'm proud of myself for not being able to handle obvious destructive idiocy. Bebop_Hakusho said: While I can appreciate the sentiment of wanting to be lenient on something you found some potential value in, I also don't see the point of giving a positive score to a show you felt was "exceedingly cringeworthy and painful." If you didn't like the overall experience then your score should probably communicate this. Personally I think that a great premise means nothing if it's executed poorly. I cannot confidently say that I disliked the overall experience. I mean, sure it was painful but I also watched it to the end?? I usually drop a show if it's unbearable through and through. I'm sure there's a better way to classify this dichotomy than 'subjective vs objective' and that's what I wish to accomplish with this topic. Otherwise, everyone's favorite answer is that I should rate it 'subjectively' which definitely isn't instructive, especially for a reviewer (which I'm not, but I could be). Imagine going to your favorite gaming site and every reviewer there is rating things entirely 'subjectively' -- "I don't like war games and this is a war game so I give it 5/10". They clearly find some compromise between the two ends which is why their reviews are instructive. If they were based on either side of the dichotomy, you'd hate their reviews, trust me. |
Thanakos said: That you define the lack of an "objective" measure as an issue is your ordeal entirely, a sort of stopgap to stem the possibility that our thoughts might not be as concrete as you believe them to be.Hrybami said: In the context of Aku no Hana, it was purposely trying to make the audience discomfort and embarrassed. You may not like it and it's perfectly fine. Don't try to take this too seriously. That's what I recognize, and that's why I'm having this problem. It would be idiotic of me to rate something based on what it is not. The show was clearly not trying to be agreeable; it was trying to be a certain type of uncomfortable (for its intended audience -- since I'm not a part of that, I felt a different sort of uncomfortable). You and @Tylaen both point out that there is no such thing as an 'objective' criteria but that's just sweeping the problem under the rug. I loved the premise of Dr. Stone and I liked the character Senkuu but those subjective impressions did very little to alleviate the discomfort of objective ass-pulls. So even in things you enjoy, there are some objective considerations going on. I've never agreed with the idea that tastes in art are entirely subjective, because if that were so then everyone who's ever experienced a 'maturation of tastes' is a liar. I don't define it as sweeping dirt under a rug because I don't perceive there to be any dirt in the first place. I don't find it productive to think "This is subjective" and "This is objective" because whether they are, or are not is neither interesting nor meaningful to a discussion. This is nevermind that perception itself is unreliable, a topic I am woefully unarmed to tackle on my own. I'd personally try to get both terms out of your head when evaluating work. They don't ultimately matter a lick, and it matters more how you substantiate your claims than calling it "objective" or "subjective". Now read that thread I linked. I'm not about to derail the entire thread on this tangent alone. |
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| @Thanakos I'm not saying you should give it a 1 or 2 but I feel like a 4-5, maybe 6 would be sufficient to communicate that there were elements you enjoyed. The lower scores exist for a reason beyond being merely different shades of awful. I mean you couldn't even watch the whole thing from start to finish without skipping parts. That's not something that is usually an issue for me so maybe I'm overreacting a little. |
| if you skipped scenes can you really come up with a rating? just give it a 3 and get over it. Go read the manga, In heard it's better |
    |
Thanakos said: Under my rating system, I would give it a 2/9 or 3/9. Maybe 4/9.I watched Aku no Hana. It was an exceedingly cringeworthy and painful experience. I scoffed at every character. I skipped scenes because they were too fucking cringeworthy. I groaned in agony at the idiocy of the whole story. But.. At the same time, I know that the story is not entirely contrived. Middle Schoolers do tend to be extremely retarded at times and it's believable that something like this might have happened, in which case I have to admit that the story was very well delivered. I liked the animation and the soundscape. I liked that it took itself seriously apropos its intended audience (middle schoolers?) and I acknowledge the fact that maybe for someone else this story can have great meaning. What should I base my judgment on? I guess it boils down to 'objective vs subjective' view in that my subjective experience was that it was painful to watch, and my objective perception is that it was a good effort. I'm torn between rating it 7/10 and 2/10. How do I go about it? 3 says "I disliked it". 1 says "I hated it". 2 says "I hated it, but I guess I still got some elements of appreciation out of it". Similarly, 4 says "I disliked it, but I guess it was pretty okay." Or something like that. (N.B. my rating scale is out of 9.) I don't believe in rating something based on what someone else thinks of it. My ratings shouldn't be expressions about how *other people* feel about things, they should be about how *I* feel about things. I have a feeling I might disagree with you on this story (but I have no idea unless I watch it), but even if I do, I'd still encourage you to express your own opinion with it. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 2, 2020 9:15 AM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Just rate it by what you think the show deserves man.This isn't Quantum physics, stop taking "completing shows" and "rating them" so dead serious oh god. |
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| Sometimes I have these "guilty pleasure" moments. If I enjoyed a show which is really bad I give it a neutral 4, although it actually could be a 2 or a 3. If I enjoyed an obviously weak but still not so awful show I give it a 6 - a solid positive score. |
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Theo1899 said: 7+2=9 9/2=4.5 so rate it 5 if you're feeling nice If you wanna feel smart rate it 4 because sqrt(2*7)=4 What? 9/2=4.5 so you round up to 5, why not round down to 4? Also why sqrt(2*7)=4? sqrt(2*7)=sqrt(14)=3.7... so again you choose if you round up or round down. On topic: do not rate it at all OP. That's the best thing to do if you can't come up with a score. |
| When I rate a show that is totally "not for me" but not outright BAD/some people might love it, I give it a 6. |
epidemia78Apr 2, 2020 10:31 AM
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| What are you talking about?!?! Ana no Hana a 7/10 at most?!?! Aku No hana is the reason why we still have anime and it's the number one rated anime in the last decade in Bangladesh. It's a rotoscoping masterpiece that transcends all regular conventions. You just weren't there when it came out to understand the impact that it had on the industry *shakes cane* |
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Tylaen said: Thanakos said: That you define the lack of an "objective" measure as an issue is your ordeal entirely, a sort of stopgap to stem the possibility that our thoughts might not be as concrete as you believe them to be.That's what I recognize, and that's why I'm having this problem. It would be idiotic of me to rate something based on what it is not. The show was clearly not trying to be agreeable; it was trying to be a certain type of uncomfortable (for its intended audience -- since I'm not a part of that, I felt a different sort of uncomfortable). You and @Tylaen both point out that there is no such thing as an 'objective' criteria but that's just sweeping the problem under the rug. I loved the premise of Dr. Stone and I liked the character Senkuu but those subjective impressions did very little to alleviate the discomfort of objective ass-pulls. So even in things you enjoy, there are some objective considerations going on. I've never agreed with the idea that tastes in art are entirely subjective, because if that were so then everyone who's ever experienced a 'maturation of tastes' is a liar. I don't define it as sweeping dirt under a rug because I don't perceive there to be any dirt in the first place. I don't find it productive to think "This is subjective" and "This is objective" because whether they are, or are not is neither interesting nor meaningful to a discussion. This is nevermind that perception itself is unreliable, a topic I am woefully unarmed to tackle on my own. I'd personally try to get both terms out of your head when evaluating work. They don't ultimately matter a lick, and it matters more how you substantiate your claims than calling it "objective" or "subjective". Now read that thread I linked. I'm not about to derail the entire thread on this tangent alone. It's not a tangent. I've read that thread before and I'm not asking the same question. I will paraphrase what I said in another reply: Imagine going to your favorite gaming site and every reviewer there is rating things entirely 'subjectively' -- "I don't like war games and this is a war game so I give it 5/10". They clearly find some compromise between the two ends which is why their reviews are instructive. If they were based on either side of the dichotomy, you'd hate their reviews, trust me. This is also my reply to @GlennMagusHarvey . Essentially, my question is not exactly what is subjective or objective about our judgment, but rather how do we balance the two and reflect that in our ratings. Maybe it's best to take the average of the extremes and then write a review about it. |
| 7 for something you didn't enjoy is stupid. |
Thanakos said: My answer remains the same. It's not worth thinking about and is inherently worthless to consider if you're attempting to substantiate your criticism.Tylaen said: That you define the lack of an "objective" measure as an issue is your ordeal entirely, a sort of stopgap to stem the possibility that our thoughts might not be as concrete as you believe them to be. I don't define it as sweeping dirt under a rug because I don't perceive there to be any dirt in the first place. I don't find it productive to think "This is subjective" and "This is objective" because whether they are, or are not is neither interesting nor meaningful to a discussion. This is nevermind that perception itself is unreliable, a topic I am woefully unarmed to tackle on my own. I'd personally try to get both terms out of your head when evaluating work. They don't ultimately matter a lick, and it matters more how you substantiate your claims than calling it "objective" or "subjective". Now read that thread I linked. I'm not about to derail the entire thread on this tangent alone. It's not a tangent. I've read that thread before and I'm not asking the same question. I will paraphrase what I said in another reply: Imagine going to your favorite gaming site and every reviewer there is rating things entirely 'subjectively' -- "I don't like war games and this is a war game so I give it 5/10". They clearly find some compromise between the two ends which is why their reviews are instructive. If they were based on either side of the dichotomy, you'd hate their reviews, trust me. This is also my reply to @GlennMagusHarvey . Essentially, my question is not exactly what is subjective or objective about our judgment, but rather how do we balance the two and reflect that in our ratings. Maybe it's best to take the average of the extremes and then write a review about it. That you want to reveal your bias is admirable but it has little to do with the rest. |
|
| Quarantine is really getting to some people |
| I personally always go for how much I enjoyed it subjectively. If I wanted objectivity I can just look at averages or reviewers. |
| Keep it simple, stupid. |
| In my humble opinion i encourage anybody to keep apart subjective matters out from scores and taking them to the favorites listings. I tend to score as objectively as possible. I find this way of acting the most respectful towards the staff of the shows. |
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Thanakos said: It sounds like you think you need to provide a rating that is accessible to all tastes, but I don't think that's possible anyway. By trying to mix the two you'd be misrepresenting and thus losing both anyway.Imagine going to your favorite gaming site and every reviewer there is rating things entirely 'subjectively' -- "I don't like war games and this is a war game so I give it 5/10". They clearly find some compromise between the two ends which is why their reviews are instructive. If they were based on either side of the dichotomy, you'd hate their reviews, trust me. This is also my reply to @GlennMagusHarvey . Essentially, my question is not exactly what is subjective or objective about our judgment, but rather how do we balance the two and reflect that in our ratings. Maybe it's best to take the average of the extremes and then write a review about it. If you feel that the show fundamentally mismatches your tastes, you can even opt to not rate it at all. Furthermore, you can leave a short message in the tags field. Probably not supposed to be used that way, the tag field is a place I've seen people give more detailed info on their opinion. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I haven't read the other replies in this thread because I am too lazy, but I digress. Whenever I face a 'conundrum' such as this I simply compare and contrast the subject matter with an equivalent. Moreover, you can just see what your average score is, how you rated shows you liked, disliked, cringed, and loved, then proceed to judge. There's nothing more consistent than consistency with current data, and your anime list is the best table to use as device to solve your problem. Or just give it a 5. |
| Which is more important to you? How good you thought the show was by your critical judgement or by personal enjoyment? |
| anime is mainly entertainment (less of science technical stuff) so go for enjoyment factor more |
Maneki-Mew said: I roll my eyes when people somehow think anime exists to educate, not entertain, as if OP's Aku no Hana somewhat realistically modeling the stupidity of teenagers make it a better anime. And similarly that someone's character and choices, questionable or not, in selecting anime somehow make them unqualified to judge anime. As if the review of anime must come from a factual place external to oneself, which is just utterly absurd from both the review perspective and the artistic perspective.It starts with your choices. If they are already hating war games and then buying, playing and complaining about war games in their review, that's stupid, not critical. I suppose some people must think if an anime realistically portrays penguins standing around and doing nothing in Antarctica, it must be an avant garde masterpiece regardless of its success in entertainment, and that people who don't find it entertaining are just not qualified because they lack knowledge in the anatomic correctness of penguins; or even if they don't, they let their subjective senses override the objectivity of penguin depiction. It's just mind blowing that people can't separate the difference between a comment about a person and a comment about an anime. If prior experience disqualifies value of experience, then the only people who are allowed to criticize anything will be the ones who are surprised -- what a convenient way to circle jerk your way into perfection. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Your 6/10 sounds perfectly right, you describe it as a memorable show you still didn't really enjoy. That's a 6, without "memorable" a 5 or 4. I ended up with 7/10 because it has a few shortcomings (e.g. no end), but I (as opposed to you) loved their slow decline into insanity and the rotoscope style. 2/10 is the league of trashy 80s OVAs or seriously uninspired ecchi. What will you rate a really bad show then? Keep your rating scale at least a continuum, both fanboy hyping and hater punishment create cracks you'll never again able to fix. |
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katsucats said: I suppose some people must think if an anime realistically portrays penguins standing around and doing nothing in Antarctica, it must be an avant garde masterpiece regardless of its success in entertainment... Not even the intended audience (if any) of that Antarctica show will find it entertaining. If Aku no Hana's only merit was that it was realistic, it would be a very easy decision for me. A more accurate parallel would be the Penguins episode from BBC's Dynasties but without commentary. The cinematography is fantastic and for a certain audience they'll be very entertaining (including myself). So no, it's not that Aku no Hana was just realistic, it was realistic in an artful way. It was a good cup of tea, just not my cup of tea. How do I express that in my rating is the question. Yarub said: I haven't read the other replies in this thread because I am too lazy, but I digress. Whenever I face a 'conundrum' such as this I simply compare and contrast the subject matter with an equivalent. Moreover, you can just see what your average score is, how you rated shows you liked, disliked, cringed, and loved, then proceed to judge. There's nothing more consistent than consistency with current data, and your anime list is the best table to use as device to solve your problem. Or just give it a 5. I gave it a 5 yesterday lol Worgo said: In my humble opinion i encourage anybody to keep apart subjective matters out from scores and taking them to the favorites listings. I tend to score as objectively as possible. I find this way of acting the most respectful towards the staff of the shows. This is actually a very good idea. Thank you for sharing. I used a similar rating scheme for rating books on goodreads, not sure why I didn't apply it for anime. |
Thanakos said: What should I base my judgment on? I guess it boils down to 'objective vs subjective' view in that my subjective experience was that it was painful to watch, and my objective perception is that it was a good effort. I'm torn between rating it 7/10 and 2/10. How do I go about it? I see artistic judgement not much different than artworks themselves, as in one want to represent the object one find tasteful to think about as truthfully as possible, but one cannot be objectively unbiased when judgeing art, one have to depict what is really about the art in one's own subjective experience of the work, a simple score maybe is to limited to do this, then one can write a review to depict more detailed one's experience, or one can make a mind map for oneself to see what one want to base one's score on. The score is a general value judgement of the contemplation over the art, it should inform others what to expect of one's own sense of taste. This is of course hard thing to do because the score is very implicit in what it really means, so one have to relate to the context to decide the best way to communicate one's taste. I hope this is helpful. |
Thanakos said: I also use this system for my favorites here. The only downside is that people just criticize anime that are objectively not that good, but hold a special place in your heart or judgement as"shit taste" in your profile, wherein, every user consciously knows that his taste is superior to all other beings.Worgo said: In my humble opinion i encourage anybody to keep apart subjective matters out from scores and taking them to the favorites listings. I tend to score as objectively as possible. I find this way of acting the most respectful towards the staff of the shows. This is actually a very good idea. Thank you for sharing. I used a similar rating scheme for rating books on goodreads, not sure why I didn't apply it for anime. |
| Personally, I don't think you should take your rating of a show that seriously unless you want to make money off of reviewing anime. If it were me, I'd rate the show based off of how much I enjoyed the story and characters. A good effort isn't an excuse for an unenjoyable experience. |
| Don't rate it by it's artistic merit, rate it what YOU think the show deserves from the way. It doesn't matter what reasoning you use for your rating, not matter what it's still an opinion, which means it can't be right or wrong. You gave the show more than a fair shake, it clearly wasn't your cup of tea and so you'd be justified in giving it a lower score from your personal experience. Can't be expected to rate a series from ideas that were outside your experience. I'm sure the best Yuri manga on this site has some great chemistry between the main two love interests, but I still hate Yuri so I won't just rate it higher just because of what the series could mean to other people. Let them rate the show for themselves. |
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| Aku no Hana? Jesus Christ. I don't even have the guts to start that shit. Just rate it according to your intuition. |
Thanakos said: I would suggest that your artistic judgment is incomplete. There are certain visible properties that cause you to deem your cup of tea as being "good". There are also certain invisible properties that cause you to dislike it, despite being "good". It is clear that these invisible properties outweigh the "artistic" properties, or it would still be enjoyable despite flaws. You should expand your judgment of art to include everything that you feel and not just certain things that you think you are allowed to feel in the context of art.It was a good cup of tea, just not my cup of tea. How do I express that in my rating is the question. Put another way, Aku no Hana is a bunch of marbles that you are trying to put into arbitrary bins that you didn't create. There is a bin labeled "art" that someone else, or an amalgation of cultural references tell you that this is what is considered "artistic". But what the fuck is artistic really? Is it merely following certain rules to adhere to some tradition, such as attention to framing, etc.? Or is there a more ephemeral quality that appeals to the senses? I highlighted "merely" because apparently a lot of anime fans think art is just a list of check boxes, and that's such a shame. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| if an anime is overall awful but there's one thing I liked about it, I'll give it a 2/10. 5/10 means average in every way, and by all means aku no hana is nowhere average with that godawful artstyle. I wonder why they bothered with rotoscoping and not just make it a live action. |
| 馬鹿げた倫理 全部ガラクタで |
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