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Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu 2nd Season
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Sep 20, 10:41 PM
Watching 11/13 · Scored 5
Sword Art Online: Alicization - War of Underworld 2nd Season
Sword Art Online: Alicization - War of Underworld 2nd Season
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The God of High School
The God of High School
Sep 20, 9:39 PM
Watching 12/13 · Scored 6
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BannedAkko Aug 16, 12:13 AM
HanashiD4 Aug 6, 11:36 PM
Have you read the first reply? Like, you were trying to "argue" me even though you said, "Not to argue".. basically, that's argument tho.
BannedAkko Jul 20, 10:11 AM
The new mods are banning people left and right for dumb shit. I tried to appeal my last two bans but got nowhere with them.
kiss Jun 13, 8:05 AM
đŸ˜¬đŸ˜¬ I'm sure this COVID crap will blow over one of these months... sorry to hear that though man. You could always join the miltary lmao
Calal-Chan May 20, 2:13 AM
But you did you said.

"But then the stories are grouped together, such that each season serves as their own paragraph. "

Which I replied to with.

"(also high school essays tend to be pretty terrible LOL that is a horrible comparison) Not to mention you don't judge an essay based on the paragraphs. You judge it as a whole. This feels like a pretty meh comparison honestly."

Which you then replied to with.

"Sorry but no. I don't need to watch Bakemonogatari, and yes you do evaluate a paper by its paragraphs and how well the paragraphs connect. If the introductory paragraph fails to establish the requisite information, then the rest of the paper fails regardless of the conclusion."

I was literally saying I judge a paper as a whole the same way I would judge an anime as a whole with all the seasons. When you were saying I judge an anime based on the season, but go and compare a season to a paragraph. It wasn't all at the same time, but you did indeed go in this direction.

Not all dramas follow the same formula. Even if it was 99% that would mean there are still shows out there that don't follow it, but those numbers you just pulled are completely unbased and random. Does the majority follow standard drama stuff? Sure but not every show has too. So no a show doesn't have to follow these to a tee. The fact Monogatari doesn't sometimes can make it feel jarring, but Nisioisn the writer is known for subverting genre stereotypes.

There is no convincing. It is a fact that not every story is going to follow the same drama formula. Monogatari has tons of genres. Ecchi, Horror, Romance, Harem, Action, Supernatural, Drama, Comedy, you fudging name it. It messes with tons of genres all in one, and if it wants to veer or normal story telling then it can.

If you mean what I said a long time ago I admitted to being confused during that and changed my mind. She didn't regenerate because he sucked the life force out of her and didn't have the power to do so. Her screams are not insecure. The entire movie she created him as a minion to kill herself. She didn't realize the connection and bond they were going to form. She can't bite him to turn him into a vampire. He is still a part vampire and they basically share an existence. She literally has to feed on him so she can survive and the only way to turn back fully would be to suck until he died. Which again she doesn't want to do because she cares about him and even loves him whether you think she does or not.

Calal-Chan May 20, 1:00 AM
You missed my point on the paragraphs though. You related each season of Monogatari being a paragraph, but then tell me that judging them with context doesn't work. So I assumed you would do the same for a paper because that would make you consistent. Because yeah you do judge an anime series with the paragraphs/seasons and how well they connect. That is why I pointed it out as being a terrible example because it wasn't consistent with that specific argument you made a while back. I only referenced saying you need to re-watch it because you said it has been forever since you had watched it. And due to how you view high school papers you can't just judge a paragraph by itself, right? You need the context of the other ones. You literally hurt your own argument by comparing this to seasons for the Monogatari series. Kizu movies are part of a whole in terms of season. And then so is Bake and etc. You can only judge these paragraphs by how well they connect. Your words, not mine. Araragi didn't want to put her into that situation. He felt he was forced to because he didn't want to kill her and it was the only other option. He literally talks about how this event has left scars on them. It is something traumatic enough that he also doesn't want to tell anyone.

She is miserable, but she loves him so much that she doesn't want to kill him. Retaking her life would involve killing him by draining his blood. So she can't because she would die. Can you not see how that puts her into a miserable place. She was literally screaming at him telling him to kill her when he was doing this. No offense but were you even paying attention. He actually has put her into a terrible position and he knows it. And he isn't happy he did so, just that there was no other solution. You are taking his words for face value which is what you said for me not to do with Oshino. Someone can say something and not mean it. He was coping with his actions.

That also isn't even true. Not every show has to work around that same formula and breaking out from said formula is fine, but that isn't even right anyway if you look at the bigger picture and realize that the Kizu movies are objectively not stand alone. And I rarely use that word. They are literally a prequel made for you to watch after Bakemonogatari. They don't stand alone and as you said just like paragraphs in an essay it is about connecting those paragraphs which you literally just compared to seasons to connect the dots. Which is important to do for the Kizu movies too.

But again not every show can be viewed the same way. Shows are allowed to do something different with their protagonist. The Monogatari series in no way needs to follow what Thelma and Louise does. They are different products written with different objectives.

Honestly, you are so stuck on these few different things and are not willing to let other seasons (cough paragraphs as you equated them to) influence your thoughts. Which I allow for myself because I have seen quite possibly over twice the amount of this series then you have. And I know where it goes. The issue is I don't want to spoil future seasons. You don't have to enjoy what the movie does or enjoy the movie at all, but you are calling it out for things that are not even really criticisms in the grand scheme of things. The only reason they are issues is you wanted the Kizu movies to be their own thing, but if you paid any attention to Bakemonogatari you would know it literally cannot work that way and that viewing it in a vacuum actually lowers what you can actually get from it. For me, these movies put into context how his entire character shapes through the entire series and you are basically hindering your experience by thinking it doesn't. You don't judge a highschool paper based off an individual paragraph the same you don't judge the entire work based off one season.

And you can say but these seasons are all split up, and I already explained that is due to limitations in how adapting work goes. And is why I told you even the novels are written in their own seasons. Kizu, Bake, Neko, and Nise are all considered a season by the main writer. At the very least you should view those in a lens because if you rated the novels on this site you would have too, but even then they are only part of a bigger story with events that you can tie back from episode 80 to episode 1 in Bake.

I literally only asked because you asked me lol. I don't care how old you are. You could be 50 or 15. I would talk to you the same either way XD

And this isn't about who is right or wrong to me. As I said I don't find that to be why someone debates. I like to use debates to try and learn about what I am debating or the person I am debating. It isn't about who is right or wrong. If you don't like the movies that is perfectly okay, but if you can criticize them I can for sure criticize your review. Not trying to make you change your opinion but indeed wanting to discuss and see how both of our words influence each other. Like I said at one point I actually grew a greater understanding and appreciation for the show at least imo. It made me realize how much the show actually puts into foreshadowing and connecting events. Those articles really helped me understand his character a lot more. Which was one reason I went into this debate to give myself motivation.
Calal-Chan May 19, 10:22 PM
I mean then you need to re-watch Bakemonogatari. Heck it doesn't even fully solve Araragi and Heart-Under-Blades relationship. Shockingly enough this is a pretty big issue that takes a ton of time to work on. Tons of plot things are left unfinished. It might not seem that way for some but they definitely are. Some of it is just hidden. Oddities are important for sure but you haven't seen a certain season so I can't go into that whole ordeal without spoiling you. Which sucks XD. (also high school essays tend to be pretty terrible LOL that is a horrible comparison) Not to mention you don't judge an essay based on the paragraphs. You judge it as a whole. This feels like a pretty meh comparison honestly.

Okay other than saving everyone what were the actual outcomes of his actions then? You only start seeing that in other series which is the point of set up movies. But the few things you can see are well Heart-Under-Blades life is miserable. He has to constantly give her his blood in a constant cycle. Sure he has what he wants but he isn't happy about it. And it starts off Hanekawas stress. You don't get to see the outcomes of this until other series though.

I am 23 how old are you. These characters are 18 years old in these movies. Japan's schooling system is way different than ours. Assuming you live in the US. I realize a relationship can be toxic and oh what do you know I actually went into that way before. It is clear these two are not meant for each other romantically. But it is clear that we as two individuals got a lot of different things out of this scene. Which one is correct? I mean I don't know some of it is open to interpretation.
Calal-Chan May 19, 10:06 PM
Read the below comment first please since I sent this after. So hit the spoiler button after my initial post. Sorry if I am typing too much I just find these movies interesting personally.

Calal-Chan May 19, 9:40 PM
I mean I just literally went and watched this scene. To me the random cut at the end to them being apart makes it look like it is all in his head, but let's say it isn't. It doesn't really matter because it is consent between two people. considering she loves Araragi she was literally prepared to have sex with him there. So even if all those events happened it doesn't matter. So either way, I don't understand your problem with this scene unless it is the fanservice, but even then that is highly subjective anyway and isn't a real point of criticism. So no matter if my interpretation is wrong or right what is so wrong with this scene?

I mean his relationship with Hanekawa was just as important as his relationship with Heart-Under-Blade. They both shape him as a person going forward. You are interested in the other stuff and sure that is fine, but the show can't cover that all yet in these movies. They are again to set up future things.

This movie is also about how he meets Hanekawa and how their relationship forms. You cannot ignore that aspect and say it is only about Heart-Under-Blade lol. She is literally the main heroine of these movies and she needs development with him too. Which the movies give about half of the time too.

Heart-Under-Blade is sort of an antagonist because she is an obstacle but her reasoning to me is what makes it interesting. She isn't a usual antagonist. She goes out of her way to manipulate Araragi to collect all of her limbs throughout the movies (which they are allies at this point) and then this manipulation is so she can later convince him to kill her by draining her blood at full power so he can kill her and therefore return to being a human. The movies don't go into her motivations very much they keep it in the dark but seasons later cover this (granted I can't use that because the context doesn't matter I guess) And I know for a fact you haven't seen this season in question so I won't be spoiling unless you say I can.

Yes he is the protagonist
Yes but in a weird way.
I don't feel the show passed it off as it did though. I actually felt a lot of nihilism from these movies. Like their efforts were for nothing because the solution led to way more problems and misery. You keep saying that you have to look at what the show is actually saying and in no way is the movie ending presented in a happy way. Not even Araragi is really happy. Talking about the scars and how he will never tell anyone. About being damaged and having to continually lick each other's wounds. They are at the end of the movie in a cycle of constant pain because of their reliance on each other. I know you don't like context from other shows, but you can see it come into effect when he calls her for help in Bake and starts looking at her as an individual rather then a pet as the end of the movies say. I know the movies are their own "thing" but they do tie into a gigantic world with tons of characters and tons of interconnecting events. I now context apparently doesn't matter, but you act like these movies are the end, but in reality, they are the start. Is it not supposed to be the start in a story where characters create their problems and then later have to work it all out. I would honestly be on your side if these movies were a stand-alone spin-off with no real relation but the fact is just impossible to ignore in my opinion.

My point is the problem is resolved or a failure. It was put in an in-between phase that the show needs to fix. Like I keep wanting to talk about the other seasons like the whole bath between him and her in Nise. This whole scene is them starting to individualize again and start actually talking like living creatures rather than her being a pet, but I know you will just write it off. Which I don't feel is fair to the movies and how they set things up. Set up is important.

He does state you can kill me at any point, but again the movies are set up for him to grow later. Which is why the growth he does get was from Hanekawa and how their relationship went.

Again it wasn't meant to resolve anything. That was the whole point of the "gold plate" that oshino gave him, it was a lets put this all on hold and make everyone miserable type plate. And it did just that.

So if that is the case what is the actual problem then? He was not actually forcing her into anything then and it was between to consenting adults and then, in the end, he didn't really do much. Nothing that she couldn't have actually stopped. If she screamed out in fear saying don't touch me he would have stopped. The guy didn't even have the balls to fondle her boobs. Which is why I doubt he had the balls to put his knee up her crotch. Which he does. Hence why I think it is all in his head. The scene changes to black real quick then cuts to his perspective and then puts some weird fudging music. The scene clearly changes the direction it was going. And the music cuts out and a huge cut to them in the same positions before it all started. I do think he teased her but not that physically. But again even if it was real this was all in consent. I mean fudge she literally straight up gives him her panties at one point in the movie and she literally loves him. So delusion or not I have no idea what your main issue with it is then.

How long do they take to recuperate? We have no idea it is different for each vampire. We can clearly see during the fight his vampire abilities slow. In terms of healing that is. It is only when he starts drinking her blood he starts getting them back. I admit that they are not explained thoroughly but no matter what either of us says about the powers it is conjecture anyway since not everything about a vampire is explained. But it is clear drinking blood rejuvenates them. It is clear his powers to start dwindling in the right. But energy drain is about taking living essence. Which I don't think Kizu explains but the show does elsewhere. Can living essence be regenerated? How much of your powers do you need remaining to regenerate stuff? I get that there are a lot of questions but we are in a show where someone can have their hand detached and hang by a string and fling it more than a football fields worth and then use it to propel you backward. Monogatari is ridiculous and it knows it. It isn't hiding the fact it is kind of nuts. Btw she never really shows any fatigue up until he drains her energy out of her.

I figured probably not but it would have been way more productive than discussing over multiple days lol. I think our points would have gotten less lost too.

Calal-Chan May 19, 7:44 PM
1. That is fine maybe I am wrong about that anyway. Sorry for accusing you of not reading everything. It was quite short-sided of me to do so.

2. But I wasn't saying it was about him making friends. It was about his desire to make them. Which he had none at the start of but changed his mind throughout the movies. Is that not some kind of growth? It isn't a lot but these movies are to set up things not answer things.

3. This is literally wrong though. It shows visually him doing it, yes but these are his own thoughts. It is easy to infer this based on what Hanekawa said and what he said replying to her and whatnot. This part isn't even symbolism it is literally what happens on screen. The show wants to make you think he is doing it but then comes back to reality where he is like I can't fondle the boobs of my best friend. The whole naruto thing isn't accurate either. Naruto obviously wants to be Hokage he states it over and over, but until he actually accomplishes his goal he isn't Hokage. The symbolism I am talking about is an entirely different scene and doesn't relate. I mean I can go pull the movie up and give you image by image what they say if you really want me too for evidence on how the scene goes. I honestly feel you are just misremembering this scene in specific.

ps.

I literally just re-watched the exploding scene and he doesn't explode all the way. In fact, his head gets flung onto heart-under-blade and he starts draining her blood. She even mentions to him if you don't hurry my powers will recuperate. Meaning that clearly sucking her blood is even explained in the movie that he is draining her powers.

I literally have a discord if you wanted to call so we could have tone of voice. I love debating with people and discussions. It lets me learn new things. And I learned a lot about this show from this debate.
Calal-Chan May 19, 7:02 PM
I mean I was just defending myself. I can say you lack self-awareness too and ignore things you are saying. But I really try to respond to everything and in detail because I want my point to get across clearly. You tend to say things in a fairly weird way that can easily make your point harder to understand. That is a clear way to make the discussion more difficult. Character growth is subjective in my opinion. What I said about him gaining friends and being less suicidal was character growth. You mentioned my personal tone and how it is bothering you. Maybe don't take everything 100% literal when someone says you are reading everything as a personal attack. It is quite clear that call out made you upset.

You also bring up random shows and then self insert my own opinion into them. Like you know exactly how I feel about them. You are talking for me half the time and honestly, I find that a bit rude. Nowhere have I said any of that for the shows towards you? Nor are those even necessarily my thoughts for those shows. I think Deku is the worst part of HeroAca so far. A silent voice for me is good because of Shouko and how it subtly handles her suicidal thoughts through mostly visual cues. I don't have much to say on Rascal though. I enjoyed the comedy mostly.

The fact you think that is a fact is hilarious. Character growth is about a person changing in some way in my opinion. At the start of the movies he doesn't want to make any friends ever because they make him weaker, by the end, he has changed his mind. Keyword change. That is growth no matter how small. It is a change in his character. It isn't that he gained friends. It is his willingness to gain them and accept them. You see this further growth in Bake when he gets a girlfriend. This only happens because of his trials in Kizu. I know this doesn't happen in Kizu but the growth is there.

I still find this a contradiction. If you review a show and have seen other seasons it is impossible for you to not subconsciously use the other work. Like if you review something with no context your viewpoint will be different then reviewing it knowing it is a sequel because you would have watched it less confused. That kind of thing. Like if I were to review Nisemonogatari the seasons and movies before hand matter because they involve the other characters. Because if I watched Nise first and was confused from plot details because I didn't watch them first my opinion would obviously be different hence the review would be too. I wouldn't be able to say okay well Nise doesn't talk about this so even though this thing in Bake made it less confusing I am still going to disregard it for some reason.

What scene are you talking about here? It is like you made it fairly vague to try and make it difficult to respond too. Is this the whole imagining groping her? If so It was in his mind. Sure the show depicted it, but it was showing what he was thinking. If you think about murder but don't do it are you a murderer? Or are you talking about me mentioning a literal scene of him lusting and then ripping her face off? Which I saw as symbolism of his lust translating to wanting to eat her. I don't see why this is evidently absurd either though. This also didn't happen though it was also in his mind. The show was depicting what he was thinking/feeling. I am honestly so confused why either of these scenes means he actually did something. Thoughts are simply thoughts. Or if I am confused please I honestly don't know which exact scene you are talking about. I am genuinely confused here.

Because again if you mean the whole groping scene he did ask her, but literally had the entire fantasy in his head and then told her I can't fondle the boobs of my best friend. Where she literally calls him a chicken for not doing so. These are two people the same age and it would have been consent anyway. She also says you embarrassed me teased me and in the end, you don't even touch me. Am I so unattractive? To which he responds can I massage your shoulders? Like what is your complaint here that he thought about it and the show depicted it? I mean man she is literally disappointed he didn't go through with it. They have a weird relationship and he isn't actually forcing her into anything.

I mean and you really do just not respond to things. for example what I said about the novels? Ignored no reference to it what so ever even if you were to disagree.

Honestly, man, I can say you have been hostile to me too, but I honestly don't want to look at that way. Text is literally something you have to read emotionless because you have no idea what the person is feeling behind the screen. I mean I could easily have put all caps to infer yelling or just straight up call you some kind of slur to try and insult you, but I don't think I should do that. I am very self-aware that I am stubborn and can present things through text in the wrong way. My literal first post references that I am not trying to be rude and that I think the text is hard to see emotion through. I am also self-aware I can be wrong on things. Like how when you brought up the whole plot hole thing with her and whatnot. I straight up had to do research and self check my own thoughts because I thought I was wrong and even admitted that depending on perspective that I could be.
Calal-Chan May 18, 9:34 PM
"I think you need a look in the mirror before we could proceed on this respectfully."

And here is what I said in my first paragraph. "but you are so against someone having a different perspective. (The fact that imo I feel context matters and all my arguments stem from said context. Araragi doesn't exist only in Kizu.) And heck maybe I am too" Note the last part of the sentence referencing how maybe I am too. Which is why I changed my perspective and said agree to disagree. That is kind of what I meant about ignoring what I am saying. You tend to read everything I say as a personal attack. I admit in the last part I got a bit more personal, but it was because I was tired of going in circles. We were both repeating very similar things. Like me saying oh Vampires drain blood which makes them lose their powers. Which the show kind of explains. And you saying no it is still a plot hole. Why keep on repeating if we are at such an impasse on something that literally can't be 100% proved either way.

I also still think you were contradicting yourself by the end you were letting the context I was talking about changing your mind about maybe lowering the score of something.

But he does grow in other works as a person. Even in the 3 movies he goes from outside loner to hates himself and thinks that having friends completely makes him weaker to being able to make friends and help solve problems and not find friends something that makes you weaker. (even if he is still not perfect and has a Hero Complex) This is still growth. Maybe it isn't a ton nor does it finish his character but he does still grow. But see now I am just repeating what I have said before. Hence why I said we should just agree to disagree so I didn't go in circles. Which I admit I was doing.

That isn't what I meant at all. The problem is you did have the context of where his character goes at least partially. And yes if you think a character isn't developing but the show is clearly presenting it to you in a weird way and the season you haven't seen Owarimonogatari actually goes into all this then yes it matters. This is why I showed that other characters were developing too, and yes he is the protagonist, but he isn't the only main character, but you wrote that off completely saying context matters. Like I could literally just go and spoil a whole bunch of stuff but that would be super rude. So I gave you the option linking something realizing it doesn't matter what I say.

I don't think so. (just doing something on how I feel you are doing to the Kizu movies) Eren barely develops at all in the first season, and many people do consider him terrible because of his personality, but until you know what they are doing with his character which really starts showcasing the most in season 3 part 1 and part 2 then his character just comes off as poorly written. The same can be said about Mikasa too. It doesn't help that even now some characters have motivations that make no sense logically, but we don't know context about that as an anime-only viewer in the first couple seasons. So I feel someone could easily complain about the world being black and white which people did do. When the world itself is super grey and it is only Erens viewpoint at said time being black and white. (not going to get into a huge AoT discussion but saying my point is disingenuine can be used to say about how you view the Kizu movies too) Like nothing Kizu does is contradictory. Do you mean the whole bloodsucking thing? If so I have explained that several times now and it makes consistent logic. A Vampire like the cat that Hanekawa can turn into can drain powers from someone and temporarily put them on halt basically and Bake shows that vampires can too. That follows consistent logic fine enough.

But you're main problem is that you are only judging these movies stand alone, but that doesn't make sense. These are all adapting a source material that is part of one series. They are only separated due to how the anime medium works. Just like AoT having multiple seasons even though they are all adapting a single work. The light novels are released in sets and you don't judge those sets individually as books. You judge them in seasons on MAL. This means the story expects you to take context at bare minimum when reading the novels for Bake, Kizu, Nise, and Neko. You might say but those are the source material and you would be right, but like I said they could have easily adapted all 6 volumes into one series if the necessary budget would have allowed them too, but sadly anime is a limited medium and has issues when adapating so they had to split them up, but they are still apart of a bigger whole.

An actually a debate is coming to some kind of common ground. And I tried to find it with the agree to disagree on things. We are both clearly fairly stubborn. I know I am at least, and I know I have a hard time articulating my emotions through text which is why I would constantly say I appreciate the time and that you have you actually responding, because I do, but you continue to keep taking things as a personal attack. Which I honestly am not trying to do. Saying someone is contradicting themselves or ignoring what you say isn't a personal attack. It is attempting to call you out on how I feel you are ignoring aspects of my debate which I feel you did. Half the time you would just write of why I said something and say oh "If you're going to write actual events shown as symbolism, then there's nothing to discuss. It's easy to arbitrarily interpret anything as a metaphor. Then the conversation breaks down."

This is reading what I said and not wanting to respond and ignoring it by saying oh you can't say that because it is easy to arbitrarily interpret anything as a metaphor. But I said that it is easy to also interpret a show wrong. This means you as a person and me as a person can both look at the ending of the show and either of us could be "wrong" in the eyes of someone else. Someone else could easily take something away from these set of movies. And your response took my argument away of symbolism away because apparently it can just be interpreted. Like yeah, it is a story with characters in a visual medium. The visual aspect matters a lot. And him having an internal battle visually about lusting over and over, and wanting to eat her with him then tearing her face off feels perfectly symbolic about his lust and hunger coinciding, but you literally wrote it off as anything can be a metaphor and moved on. That is what I call ignoring my statements.

Welp I continued to debate some points but more so defending why I said the things I did. It is easy as a person including me to just say I rebuked you on something so now even if he says something related to it I know I am right and he is wrong. I am not saying I wasn't doing any of that either, but man you tell me to look in the mirror when I specifically referenced about how I am kind of doing the same thing in terms of not letting someone have a different perspective. So I guess I can say the same to you, nowhere in these debates have you even referenced or acknowledged that I could be right about a few things, but when debating I did with you. Like the whole plot hole situation. Granted I came to terms with it but while I don't see it as a plot hole because I feel the world explains it you do. And honestly, that is fine. Everyone interprets things differently, but nope when I said it seemed arguable you said no and shut me down again.

Well, man, it was fun I am sorry if I ever came across hostile it was why I kept trying to preface I am not because text is hard to invoke real emotion through, but I did enjoy it. I found a new respect for the entire series and how complex it is. Having to look stuff up and find articles that even explained issues I had with the movies since I don't even find them perfect myself, was an interesting experience for sure. I learned a lot about the show personally in a positive way and I hope you did too positively or negatively, either way, works for me. Enjoy your day :)

Weird random thing to note but I saw this while scrolling through Monogatari threads during this debate and it is a comment you said.
Calal-Chan May 18, 3:32 PM
Look I was typing a response to these things but the longer I read below the more I feel you are taking what I am saying and ignore over half of it. I feel we will never be able to agree on a single thing. I am not trying to change your opinion, but you are so against someone having a different perspective. (The fact that imo I feel context matters and all my arguments stem from said context. Araragi doesn't exist only in Kizu.) And heck maybe I am too, but I figured I would be the one to end it off on an agree to disagree. You seem reasonable enough in terms of being polite so I figured I would say that now.

Like I said I did have a response countering things, but it would just end in an endless cycle of you saying context outside of the movies doesn't matter. And considering your last statement if you do go and rate them lower then you are contradicting the fudge out of yourself. If these movies and other series play no part with each other at all that is. But if they do so much of your argument falls apart since half of it stems from judging the movies solely by themself which I am not doing since these series all fudging connect. Like man part of Monogatari Second Season is stuck in a weird OVA simply because it got delayed.

I personally feel you just missed literally all of my points by being stuck in your own agenda of what the show is. Obviously I am going to talk about context to the entire series because it all connects together. It has mystery elements that you have to connect and character growth that is only understood through connecting the dots. You severely undermine the entire show by judging the content on its own because it is not stand alone. It would be like if I watched AoT season 3 part 2 and ignored all the foreshadowing the other seasons do for it and said well man this came out of nowhere and is a gigantic plot hole. And I just don't do that.

tldr Context matters and if you don't believe that then nothing I say ever will matter because I have always used context to judge shows even when said shows are split into parts or movies or whatever. Go to any analysis of this show and anyone who understands it at all (better than me for sure) will be taking context from everything. It is a show about connecting things. And you are unwilling to do that and because of that, the show suffers for you. And you know what that is okay I will stay in my world and like this show and you can do the same but the opposite.

More tldr because I am bad at not typing too much. Thanks again for your time though. I appreciate you at least read through my comments. I still remember one time having some dude delete my comment that was countering his review (even if I was wrong I don't remember) but it felt really insulting. So I genuinely mean thank you for taking the time to respond even if we couldn't come to terms in some way. Granted I guess agreeing to disagree would be terms.

I know people hate when other people link things but I felt the need too. If you don't care about spoilers feel free to read up on some of this. So I literally wouldn't have to type a 5k word essay towards you. It is all in parts and whatnot. Again only if you care little about spoilers because there are massive ones you haven't gotten to.

Again massive spoilers for what you haven't seen.
List of parts.
https://animetropolisblog.wordpress.com/category/analysis/monogatari-series/arararagi-koyomi/

Part 1
https://animetropolisblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/08/character-reanalysis-of-araragi-koyomi-part-1/
Calal-Chan May 18, 1:37 AM
Sorry for the super long post below btw. Fudge me I didn't realize I typed that much.
Calal-Chan May 18, 1:36 AM
1. It is also easy to interpret something wrong too. At that point discussing anything is pointless and none of your points matter either. Even what is considered a plot hole is subjective in that sense. Or if plot holes are even bad too. Or if plot convenience is something to consider bad. Ignoring a specific thing such as symbolism means taking everything at face value and doing that creates a very limited viewing experience of shows in general. We might as well blindly watch something because we haven't heard from the main writer what all his intentions are about. Part of dissecting a show is to analyze events and see how it all works.

2. I mean it is a good thing this is the start of the story timeline-wise and the other seasons are where he grows from this. How many times do I need to say that these movies are part of a bigger picture? You even admit that in this point. "No wonder they released Kizumonogatari last because if they showed it before Bakemonogatari, it would have destroyed the context that we view Araragi." Because yes Bakemonogatari is where we see him evolve as a person past these events. There is even a 4 part ova based in between Kizu and Bake timeline-wise. This show is partially about connecting the timeline together and figuring out how a character grows. Hence which I mentioned plenty of times why you watch Bakemonogatari before Kizumonogatari so you have context as to where his character used to be.

2 cont. Also, the show describes why she is like that he basically puts her near-death and takes her powers from her. You could say but why can't she regen, but it is easy to infer that another vampire draining her blood is different than actually physically harming her. So it being a plot hole honestly feels arguable at best. Which in that case why discuss it at all based on your first point. Again Oshino hands him a sort of solution, but it isn't given on a golden platter. It is a solution to put things on hold and make everyone miserable. I don't see why you are so stuck on this being a thing where he can't grow. This is literally storytelling 101. Put your main character at the start so far away from what he wants to be or can be and then have him develop. You keep acting like these movies are their own thing and don't have the other aspects of the show. Part of me feels you didn't even read what I said. :( This show has an actual order to it and then releasing it last wasn't even on purpose. These movies got delayed. They were supposed to be watched right after Bakemonogatari and not before or after the whole series.

3. Ignores the entire aspect that there is more to the entire story and that yes the movies don't go into that. Bakemonogatari and another part of the show does. You can also remain on friendly terms with someone but have issues with them. But again none of this point matters. The movie isn't going over that. It is setting it up. Like, are these movies and Bake all you have seen? I feel it has been so long you don't even remember anything from Bake yet alone you haven't even seen the other parts of the show that these movies are set up for. (just looked back and realized you have seen both Nise and Nekomonogatari Black and now I regret typing everything because it was all in the back of my mind you haven't even seen these. This confuses me even further as you even have seen the parts where it is clear that his actions caused negative side effects to Hanekawa. Nekomonogatari Black literally happens because of what happened in Kizu.) I am honestly lost. Just gonna finish my responses below.

So far most of what you have said is that he gave up nothing and achieved everything. And I have already given plenty of examples on how that is wrong. You even watched Bake and it shows that isn't what happened. Yes, he has a Hero Complex. The movies are there to show where he develops it. Bakemonogatari shows some more of it while introducing a huge cast of characters and what do you know the series continues and shows all the outcomes that he was apart of in Bake in other seasons. You keep on and on about the codependency but that isn't right either. And I don't feel the need to repeat what I have said before.

Yes Bakemonogatari does talk about those characters, but it also talks about other characters too. So it also includes set up while also developing characters it set up in the Kizu movies. It is just told slightly out of order. But with that knowledge I don't see why this whole codependency thing is bothering you, because it clearly isn't the case in Bake. It shows how toxic he can be for Hanekawa. And no he doesn't solve all their problems. He is trying to, but the other characters solve their own or he has others help him out with the problems. I know you are only referencing Heart-Under-Blade and Hanekawa but the other characters matter too.

Senjougahara is the one that pleads to the Crab and fixes her situation. She feels like Araragi saved her but honestly, she did the work. She needed a push and some help from both Arararagi and Oshino but getting help isn't the same as codependency as we can both agree on.

Hachikuji - Is done by both Senjougahara and Araragi. I can't say much about her because of spoilers for stuff you haven't seen. Even saying that is kind of spoiler territory.

Kanbaru - He tries to solve her problems but without Senjougahara he would have died solving nothing. So she solved this one.

Sengoku - I literally can't say anything about this other then it hasn't been solved. (and that is spoiler territory lol)

Hanekawa - Honestly it isn't even Araragi that saved her. She literally forced him to bring out Heart-Under-Blade by trying to kill him. And then she drained some of her powers. Man, it is like vampires can do that. But I might be remembering wrong but just because she sucked out her powers doesn't mean they are gone and the show mentions that. This even sort of explains the whole draining thing, and why Heart-Under-Blade isn't as weak as she was. Also partially because he called for her. But this wasn't just him saving her and he needed help, but this is dependency and it isn't a bad thing to have others help.

Those are all the arcs in Bakemonogatari and shockingly enough there are more seasons and material that continue to go into this stuff including his hero complex. But again spoiler territory. I was only trying to speak from Kizu and Bakes point of view. And even with them, you can see the show doing tons of set up and some character growth. Hanekawa, in particular, developed a lot in Bake.

1. Conveniences don't mean bad writing. 2. If you remembered in Bake they explain that a vampire can drain energy similar to something like Hanekawa when she is in cat form. This has nothing to do with hoc theories. You understand that right? We are also working with a supernatural show that can introduce tons of new elements if it wants too and no that doesn't necessarily mean bad writing.

This is just wrong. He doesn't rape anyone in the Kizu movies. Where are you getting that from? The entire groping scene was in his head dude. She gets headaches due to multiple reasons. Which are her stress envy and negative emotions. Which then manifests into Black Hanekawa. Thankfully I can now mention this seeing as you have seen this ova. These emotions can come from many different elements and while she obviously loves Araragi it tends to happen most when they are around each other. Which the content you have seen goes over. Which again is what the movies set up. It is like the start of their entire relationship which sadly ends up being toxic. Wow, there relationship is toxic? Are they not supposed to be codependent on each other? And if they are wouldn't their relationship being toxic not support codependency?

I mean I have been saying all along his actions have been causing consequences for others not necessarily himself. But that in fact harms his relationships with people.

Well anyway, that is all I have to say. I don't even know how you are going to read this jumbled mess. We both typed so much that both our thoughts are scattered on many different aspects to this debate so I doubt everything I wanted to say will come across clearly. Again thanks for your time and discussion though.

As a general note, I wanted to say the Kizu movies were literally made different;y from the series. The director wanted to make a movie that said as much as possible through visuals, unlike the novels where it literally info dumps you. This is why I think the movies are harder to understand in general. Even for me in a lot of ways. The series itself is a lot more on the nose in comparison. Which is why I like these movies. They make you have to think about everything. Anyway, just a little extra note.