Fate/Apocrypha Episode 2 Discussion

Thess said:

Except she's a royal born HEIR to the throne of Britain and chose to draw the sword by her own will. Merlin expected her to refuse after his warnings and she told him to get lost. She's not Solomon. She wasn't denied of anything and was born entirely free to decide her life. She had agency she chose to give up because she wanted to be king.

It's funny, because she treats Mordred and some people under her in Britain exactly how Kiritsugu treats her. Aka read Garden of Avalon.

Yawn, I'm not going to bother answering your long rant over irrelevant stuff. I don't give a damn about what YOU think she's 'not obsessed' with honor. Garden of Avalon (which is by Nasu, by the way) made it clear, she's the King of Knights, not just because she rules knights, but because she's embodiment of chivalry. She did not act like that in bloody FSN. Period. Nasu revised her characterization and overhaul his mistakes which he wrote because he was obviously afraid she came off as manly to insecure neckbeards who wanted to waifu her.

Except it wasn't. Again read Garden of Avalon. Shirou did nothing special, even you mention it, Irisviel treated her as human before him. Kay did too. As did a number of people in her past, including Guinevere. This bugs me a lot, so I might as well mention it.

Nah, I've read the VN. Including all the bad ends.

And no, the scenes might be of the VN but in the VN she blushed and acted like a waifu, while the anime removed that annoying crap. Look at the differences between her attitude in Good end of UFO and the original where she is an awkward and implies romantic interest. You should actually read the VN as you suggest, you're clearly not recalling the scenes correctly. They revamped the scenes because they changed her characterization to go on line with Zero. She gets some cute scenes, but that's it.

Lol. They made her Shirou's mother figure. Are you this desperate to prove Nasu didn't make her a waifu? In his own words:

Fate/Zero Saber is the Kingly one. These are Nasu's words and opinion, not mine. Trumps all you have to say with your wall of text, huh?

mira-pyon said:
Well, this is where you have literally proven how little you know of GoA. Merlin EXPECTS her to pull the sword, and she did not tell him to get lost - everything to do with the sword of selection was planned and predicted by Merlin. Also, she was barely born to decide her life. She was literally an experiment to be made as king right from birth. Regardless of what she herself wanted, she is still left to the whims of Merlin, who literally coaxed her into becoming king by 'training' her in her every sleeping hour. Sure, there's the illusion of free will, but the free will itself is technically not there.

mira-pyon said:
If you call letting Mordred rule over the freaking country as a regent while she's away 'treating her like shit', I literally don't know what to say to you. I admit, she could've certainly rejected her in a more humane way, however Mordred was still left as a high-ranking knight even after that. If Mordred had tried to calm down and not rebelled, I wouldn't be surprised if Artoria gave her more power and let her lead a bit more.

Please, I have read and listened to Garden of Avalon over a thousand times, and the story very clearly tells you about a girl with a ridiculous responsibility, not a freaking Knight King. Please, quote where it says she's obsessed with honour, because I can sure as hell quote Kay-nii-san outright calling her a simple town girl. Heck, not even Gawain boasts of her being super honourable, and we all know how he is.

Nope, Shirou certainly did something special. He was the very first person to go 'Dude, you must be tired, maybe you should stop or rest or something?' Kay? Kay let Merlin do his thing and let Artoria walk into her destruction. Guin? Guin added to her destruction due to her affair with Lancelot. Please, name this 'number of people' whom did what Shirou did, as there is literally no-one.

Merlin calls Shirou's behaviour a freaking miracle. Do you think he would call it a miracle if Shirou treated Artoria the same way as most other people before him?

Wow, so you're blind now, I guess. Please witness, a Ufo Artoria collection and that was from quick, mediocre Google searching.Waifu af. Again, either you're blind or need to take off your anti-waifu glasses. I sure as hell don't remember this amount of pandering in the VN, and this isn't even Artoria's route. What, do you think Ufo extended the pony-tail screentime, increased the molestation and added more food love because they were trying to make her more kingly/knightly?http://imgur.com/a/IhGKx

I don't see how this defeats Fai's point. From what I've gathered, Fai is saying that Artoria is not a honour-bound, chivalry-preaching knight. King =/= Knight. And shell =/= actual person. Nasu's quote outright goes against your point because it's literally saying that Fate/Zero Saber is supposed to be more kingly but that kingliness is a fucking lie.

In other words, she should've been more charismatic, rather than going full chivalry with Derpmud because, repeat after me, a king does not equal a chivalrous knight.

Also I suggest to stop telling Fai to 're-read' things. He can be salty as fuck and hate on many things, but he's still a masochist who reads/watches things he hates as long as possible and still goes as far as analysing them, even though he hates them.

Thess said:


There's a goddamn difference between being born without agency to be a machine kingship ideal system which is what your friend implied (hint: that's Solomon, not Artoria - she even gets indirectly namedropped to point the difference between Solomon and other heroic spirits) and another to be raised to maybe one day. It's the same difference between Shirou and Kiritsugu, one was born (or reborn) empty and the other one chose to empty themselves for the sake of what they perceived was the greater good. Hell, Kiritsugu was even younger when this happened. A lot of people are trained for their future duty, but they can choose another path. Artoria had a choice, stop trying to paint her as a boring victim of circumstances when the bloody point was for her to accept her responsibilities, her choices and outcome and be proud of them regardless of the result as Fate route indicates. Not about white knight her about how unfair they were.

Merlin did not expect her to take the sword after that warning. He was surprised Artoria actually went against his prediction. I'm not sure why you're so offensively removing her character arc of Fate route, but whatever.

She treats her as coldly and ignores her in FGO too, so it's got nothing to do anymore with her role as King. Saber is very alike Kiritsugu, after all. Hey, I didn't say she was in the wrong, she probably can't deal with her in the same why Kiritsugu treated Saber as coldly because her existence was painful, it wasn't just him being an ass which is what people often forget too (and I feel dirty to defend Kiritsugu, but here I am).

You obviously have not. Please tell me why she's called the Knight-King which is point blank explained in GoA? She was raised as a knight since she was 5 years old by Ector and you think being a knight wasn't important when her freaking dream was to become a knight before she gave that up to be a king?

Kay said:
she had been no different from the other girls in town. She’d been disciplined by the old man and etiquette drilled into her bones, but once in town, she became just like her surroundings. She was a town girl, a simple town girl.

....

Since she had been aware, she’d been trained by the old man and given a king’s education for the greater portion of the day. And the sole free time she had, the time she should be sleeping, she spent taking care of the needs of the horses and patrolling the village.

Saber was indeed a town girl, as Kiritsugu was a simple island boy, they took choices, and changed, throwing away their hearts. You can say the circumstances were unfair, but it was still their choices. You can't deny me Kiritsugu isn't a mercenary, right? Same reason why you can't deny someone bloody raised as a knight isn't one. And one of the requisites of knighthood is to be honorable and chivalrous, for crying it aloud.

It's not "honor obsession" is something natural in her and all knights, aren't you getting it? She was raised to be chivalrous by a knight, even Saber Lily who is pretty fanservice-like acts chivalrously. She wasn't obsessed with honor in Zero either, you're obviously exaggerating because you can't deal with the fact she bonded with another guy that isn't your self-insert, huh? She was acting as a king and a knight. That's it. Because by then, Saber wasn't completely broken.

Ahh this reveals your true colors, it bugs you that Zero (and Nasu later) ship teased them, didn't you? Move on with your insecurity. I swear every time this "honor" complaint is brought is 99% about a very insecure fanboy because she had a special comradeship with a handsome guy they can't use as easy self-insert. Please don't be like that because is frankly pathetic.

Do you think I give a damn about your buddy? He's the one who replied to me simply saying not all Saber fans hate Zero portrayal because I like it and I prefer it over FSN (but I also like FSN?). Somehow having a different taste rustled his jimmies he decided to write a wall of text in response to my personal tastes.

IT WAS HILARIOUS. You're quite funny too. ;)

But yeah, I'll pass talking to him because I make a policy to not address fans who think a Prisma Illya is a masterpiece if other posters are to be believed, apparently. Sorry, I prefer to not engage myself with that part of the fanbase.

Fai said:


Actually both come to same conclusion just via different means. Its pretty much about how she does not need to reject her own choices and deeds to be herself. Its literally an intentional parallel to Archer's own conflict. Unlike Archer however she actually can act upon that and stop pursuing her goal. Its about accepting that even though it was fated and the outcome could not be anything else from the start, her choices were her own and the horrible end does not erase that she lived by what she believed in. It was a worthy life to live because of what she believed in.

The only difference is that while in Fate she comes to that conclusion through interactions with Shirou, in UBW she comes to that conclusion from watching Answer(which in a way counts as an abridged recap of Shirou's character I guess) unfold.