| By which I mean, they are considered the "main character," but severely lack development and aren't fleshed out the way other characters may be--generally remaining extremely simplistic in character/personality. Often, these main characters' true intentions, motivations, and desires are left out completely. You could say that they are main characters, whose character/personalities (no action) have little or no influence on the plot of the show overall. Essentially, such "fake" main characters are mostly designed to be a bystander from whose general perspective the anime is seen, or a self-insert, with a similar purpose. Examples are: Aldnoah.Zero, Psycho Pass, Sword Art Online (sorry, I was trolling. SAO MC is just bad, not fake), and nearly all ecchi-harem protagonists. Basically this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PinballProtagonist The reason I call them "fake" is because main characters with these designs barely fit the definition of a "character," let alone a "main character" or protagonist. A character is supposed to represent a human being. Such "fake" characters are created incomplete or broken, in this regard. |
MortalMelancholyMay 4, 2016 9:07 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Solution.... look at the girls and ignore the males *lennyface* |
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| Your dislike of them is getting in the way of properly evaluating them. |
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| You serious? a main character being bad doesn't make him 'fake' Just call them bad main characters or any other term that actually makes sense. |
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| they're dumb a fake main character we NEED is episode 1. A character is training to beat his greatest foe yet. You learn this main characters backstory, his love, his life, and his aspirations. He's finally facing his mortal enemy, who's made out to be the bad guy. Then, he's slain. The enemy wins, and the rest of the show shows how the true main character, the mortal enemy, is now the main character. You find out he's the good guy. |
| SAO and Psycho-Pass do not fit that description. Madoka Magica and Noragami (Hiyori) do. I don't hate them, since they're difficult to hate, but I have no strong feelings either way. |
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| Hmm, looks like the protagonists of Shin sekai yori and Psycho-Pass, or more like many animes that are about the setting and/or the phenomenon. Well so many animes got this kind of fake mc if your opinion on it was this: Often, these main characters' true intentions, motivations, and desires are left out completely. You could say that they are main characters, whose character/personalities (no action) have little or no influence on the plot of the show overall. Myriads of anime and other kind of stories have a plot that focuses more on the environment or the event, and in drawback, shuns the character development. They place some 'protagonists' as a mere plot device, in order there's some view we can see, or else we cannot follow clearly the plot. Character development always appeal to me, especially on overarching plots. If the plot is simple and straightforward, then it's nothing to me whether they put some development or not. Most of the time in films, movies do not delve on the characters. If you compare the novel Middlemarch or Tale of Genji to some of anime plots like Psycho-Pass or Shin Sekai Yori, you're comparing apple and oranges. |
JomsMay 3, 2016 11:15 AM
tsudecimo said: You serious? a main character being bad doesn't make him 'fake' Just call them bad main characters or any other term that actually makes sense. Perhaps I should call them "placeholder main characters." Because their reason for existence is simply because they needed to center the show around one person's perspective. You could probably remove such characters without affecting the plot, and then replace the perspective with that of.... A stalker. Or a god. Or a ghost. Or an invisible robot. The idea of a main character or a protagonist is someone who should play a "leading part." According to wikipedia: The protagonist should be at the center of the story, should be making the difficult choices and key decisions, and should be experiencing the consequences of those decisions. The protagonist should be propelling the story forward. There are variations in the use of the protagonist. For example, if a story contains a subplot, or is a narrative that is made up of several stories, then there may be a character who is interpreted as the protagonist of each subplot or individual story. So really, they ARE fake. Merely a semblance of what a true main character is. merryfistmas said: SAO and Psycho-Pass do not fit that description. Madoka Magica and Noragami (Hiyori) do. I don't hate them, since they're difficult to hate, but I have no strong feelings either way. You're mostly right, and your examples are also correct. I was just hating on SAO :3 The main character of Psycho Pass does fit though. |
MortalMelancholyMay 3, 2016 11:10 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
Magus said: Hmm, looks like the protagonists of Shin sekai yori and Psycho-Pass, or more like many animes that are about the setting and/or the phenomenon. Well so many animes got this kind of fake mc if your opinion on it was this: Often, these main characters' true intentions, motivations, and desires are left out completely. You could say that they are main characters, whose character/personalities (no action) have little or no influence on the plot of the show overall. Myriads of anime and other kind of stories have a plot that focuses more on the environment or the event, and in drawback, shuns the character development. They place some 'protagonists' as a mere plot device, in order there's some view we can see, or else we cannot follow clearly the plot. Right, but in those cases, what is desired isn't a "main character," but an observer. I'm asking for opinions on that, and of course, mine is that they aren't at all necessary. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
MortalMelancholy said: Magus said: Hmm, looks like the protagonists of Shin sekai yori and Psycho-Pass, or more like many animes that are about the setting and/or the phenomenon. Well so many animes got this kind of fake mc if your opinion on it was this: Myriads of anime and other kind of stories have a plot that focuses more on the environment or the event, and in drawback, shuns the character development. They place some 'protagonists' as a mere plot device, in order there's some view we can see, or else we cannot follow clearly the plot. Right, but in those cases, what is desired isn't a "main character," but an observer. I'm asking for opinions on that, and of course, mine is that they aren't at all necessary. In my opinion, using the characters as a guide is suitable as the viewer can immerse himself to the setting through the protagonist. However, it might be unnecessary, but who would be the face of the story? It must sell, right? So placing some enticing characters would fit the bill. |
RLinksoul said: I'm not entirely sure what the criteria for a fake main character as you described them is, all I can think of is the trope "Decoy Protagonist" where the show sets you up to think that one person is the MC, but it ends up really being someone else. Like Gurren Lagann for example. The trope Pinball Protagonist might also be what you mean, a character who is the viewpoint character but doesn't affect the story much. This is part of the reason I thought "Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku" was terrible. The main character has no personality beyond being a cliche shounen protagonist, neither develops nor responds believably to the show's bleak setting, and has no ability to affect anything happening around him. Latter is the case. Didn't know there was a trope for that, but there's probably a trope for everything. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Main characters who don't get treated like characters, rather just as stand-ins for the viewers, eh? Well, in some cases I like them (I thought Akane got some nice development over the course of PP), though in most cases, I'd much rather just have an interesting, if unrelatable main character. No need to waste time with the same self-insert I've seen thousands of times across each and every medium. It just seems like a rather amateur technique at this point, and if I ever get around to writing some form of book (graphic novel, etc.), I'll try my best to make the main character an actual character. |
MortalMelancholy said: Akane has a clearly defined moral code and she makes devisions based on it that have a significant impact on the story. She isn't the most compelling MC but she is by no means a stand in or fake or whatever word you want to use.tsudecimo said: You serious? a main character being bad doesn't make him 'fake' Just call them bad main characters or any other term that actually makes sense. Perhaps I should call them "placeholder main characters." Because their reason for existence is simply because they needed to center the show around one person's perspective. You could probably remove such characters without affecting the plot, and then replace the perspective with that of.... A stalker. Or a god. Or a ghost. Or an invisible robot. The idea of a main character or a protagonist is someone who should play a "leading part." According to wikipedia: The protagonist should be at the center of the story, should be making the difficult choices and key decisions, and should be experiencing the consequences of those decisions. The protagonist should be propelling the story forward. There are variations in the use of the protagonist. For example, if a story contains a subplot, or is a narrative that is made up of several stories, then there may be a character who is interpreted as the protagonist of each subplot or individual story. So really, they ARE fake. Merely a semblance of what a true main character is. merryfistmas said: SAO and Psycho-Pass do not fit that description. Madoka Magica and Noragami (Hiyori) do. I don't hate them, since they're difficult to hate, but I have no strong feelings either way. You're mostly right, and your examples are also correct. I was just hating on SAO :3 The main character of Psycho Pass does fit though. |
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| And here I thought you were talking about Ga-Rei-Zero |
| "Fake" Main character is non-sense, "Bad" Main character is a different matter and more what you are talking about. If they are bad, they are just bad, really nothing else to it besides that - doesn't mean they don't deserve being called the MC. |
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TheRefractingOne said: Main characters who don't get treated like characters, rather just as stand-ins for the viewers, eh? Well, in some cases I like them (I thought Akane got some nice development over the course of PP), though in most cases, I'd much rather just have an interesting, if unrelatable main character. No need to waste time with the same self-insert I've seen thousands of times across each and every medium. It just seems like a rather amateur technique at this point, and if I ever get around to writing some form of book (graphic novel, etc.), I'll try my best to make the main character an actual character. Successful fiction novels always have 'real' protagonists. Some protagonists were just toned down on Dystopian fiction because it greatly focuses on the system. Imo I just kind of hate those kind of genres. But I don't think Dystopian fictions are beyond goodness, they always lie borderline mediocrity. |
merryfistmas said: MortalMelancholy said: Akane has a clearly defined moral code and she makes devisions based on it that have a significant impact on the story. She isn't the most compelling MC but she is by no means a stand in or fake or whatever word you want to use.Perhaps I should call them "placeholder main characters." Because their reason for existence is simply because they needed to center the show around one person's perspective. You could probably remove such characters without affecting the plot, and then replace the perspective with that of.... A stalker. Or a god. Or a ghost. Or an invisible robot. The idea of a main character or a protagonist is someone who should play a "leading part." According to wikipedia: So really, they ARE fake. Merely a semblance of what a true main character is. You're mostly right, and your examples are also correct. I was just hating on SAO :3 The main character of Psycho Pass does fit though. Moral code? She's simply unaffected by outside stimulus; you could call her less "alive" than a normal human being, and a simpler, emptier personality. I'm only going off the first season btw. Second season bored the hell out of me and I dropped it. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| They're just poorly written characters that's all. Not much else to say about it.. I don't get what any of this has to do with being fake tho lol. |
merryfistmas said: SAO and Psycho-Pass do not fit that description. Madoka Magica and Noragami (Hiyori) do. I don't hate them, since they're difficult to hate, but I have no strong feelings either way. SAO focuses on the survival system, not the characters. Kirito is too shallow and unoriginal, Gary Stu kind of bs. Psycho-Pass has Kogami, with a linear characteristic and there's too good Akane, but that ends the character development. Most of the plot revolved on their antagonists, so we can say that the center of the show is Sybil, the system, and the antagonists. |
| She is. Akane's development is her understanding, through the Makishima conflict, that the sybil system is a flawed solution, but still the best one anybody uas at the time. Her being uneffected by outside stimulus is supposed to show what the paragon of that type of system would look like. Again, it doesn't make for the mosy complex character, but ot would be far more accurate to call her a stand in for an ideologuly rather than the viewer. |
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merryfistmas said: Akane has a clearly defined moral code and she makes devisions based on it that have a significant impact on the story. She isn't the most compelling MC but she is by no means a stand in or fake or whatever word you want to use. Precisely. I'm glad someone understands that she isn't strictly a stand-in, and she actually gets some pretty subtle development over the course of the series (becoming more pragmatic and reconciling her internal values with the reality of what was going on in the plot). The second season may have taken a dump on her, but hey, in the first season she was solid. Magus said: Successful fiction novels always have 'real' protagonists. Some protagonists were just toned down on Dystopian fiction because it greatly focuses on the system. Imo I just kind of hate those kind of genres. But I don't think Dystopian fictions are beyond goodness, they always lie borderline mediocrity. I don't know about that. Sure, there are some very bland dystopian series out there, but I personally love the exploration of certain systems and ideas people can use to create a totalitarian state. Think "Newspeak" and stuff like that. |
| Are you saying "fake" main characters = self-insert characters? |
| This salad is salty favored |
MortalMelancholy said: I'm only going off the first season btw. Second season bored the hell out of me and I dropped it. there are somewhat in s2 scenes that developed Akane but fuck that shit is one of the worst anime ever made. Akane developed from fake to bullshit! |
| "Pinball protagonists" isn't really necessarily bad and they're definitely not fake. It depends on how the plot is written. If it uses the said pinball protagonist to explore some themes or just to present a story then it's good. |
TheRefractingOne said: Magus said: Successful fiction novels always have 'real' protagonists. Some protagonists were just toned down on Dystopian fiction because it greatly focuses on the system. Imo I just kind of hate those kind of genres. But I don't think Dystopian fictions are beyond goodness, they always lie borderline mediocrity. I don't know about that. Sure, there are some very bland dystopian series out there, but I personally love the exploration of certain systems and ideas people can use to create a totalitarian state. Think "Newspeak" and stuff like that. Orwell is such a good dystopian writer, I read his Animal Farm and enjoyed it, as it has a reference from historical events. I'm soon to read 1984 but hell I can't really enjoy such genres that includes great and immense speculation. My mind just don't comprehend it too much, so I stick to realism and low fantasies. |
| I don't know how Akane can be a "fake" main character when she clearly develops through the series from a unexperienced rookie to an actual competent law enforcer, but, well, people has opinions after all. |
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Magus said: merryfistmas said: SAO and Psycho-Pass do not fit that description. Madoka Magica and Noragami (Hiyori) do. I don't hate them, since they're difficult to hate, but I have no strong feelings either way. SAO focuses on the survival system, not the characters. Kirito is too shallow and unoriginal, Gary Stu kind of bs. Most of SAO isn't about that .A good chunk deals with romance. I'm not particularly a Kirito-fan but I think he's got a few aspects that could be fleshed out on(albeit they weren't) and make him interesting. He has fairly okay groundwork. It just wasn't expounded upon. |
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lasterrending said: I think the show cant run without the male MC. Yes, he does not doing all the fighting, but he connecting the girls with each other. If we replace him with beautiful girls, it wont work. (unless if its yuri( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°))Mamster-P said: Solution.... look at the girls and ignore the males *lennyface* Exactly. A perfect example of this is Asobi ni Iku Yo. The MC serves one purpose: to give the show a generic harem storyline. If they left him out it mostly wouldn't change the story. But since I like the girls in the show, I just forget he's even there and watch them instead. |
| This salad is salty favored |
| What I don't I get is why people shit on these type of protagonists if they come from an ecchi harem series but when it's a character like Ginko from Mushishi who has the same issues with lack of personality and character development everybody is suddenly ok with it. |
lasterrending said: Mamster-P said: Solution.... look at the girls and ignore the males *lennyface* Exactly. A perfect example of this is Asobi ni Iku Yo. The MC serves one purpose: to give the show a generic harem storyline. If they left him out it mostly wouldn't change the story. But since I like the girls in the show, I just forget he's even there and watch them instead. I was kinda just being funny... no matter how "good" a main character is... I'm not going to look at him regardless But of that's what u do, great lol xD |
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| Ecchi-Harem show are more focusing on the ecchi stuff and the girls since many viewers want to see that, and the blu-ray sells well too imo. and i think it's not something wrong or something bad since anime is a fiction. it's free to messed up the character/story,etc as the author want. there are Harem-ecchi show that are focusing more into the story and character development such as To Love Ru imo, and there are Harem-ecchi show that are focusing more on the girl, on the ecchi stuff. it does sell well in japan, especially in blu-ray if i'm not wrong. |
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| I'd prefer that to be avoided as much as possible. If the MC is bland, they only take up space. A story needs a character. |
AltoRoarkMay 4, 2016 9:33 AM
| I don't think "fake" is the word you're looking for. More, "flat". I'm not the biggest fan of flat main characters, the rest of the story has to be really good to make up for it. |
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| If fake main characters meant badly written main characters, then they mostly become a big disappointment in the overall presentation of the story. But "main characters" who act as the perspective by which the plot is presented, who tend to end up being clueless about stuff and end up becoming a spectator, I came up with two thoughts: probably they are not the main character contrary to what people think, or it is justified to complement with the overall themes intended by the show. |
A retard is trying to prove his point, thanks. |
lasterrending said: I am pretty sure that Asobi ni Iku yo! will reach score 8++ if we turn it into Yuri xD_Esper_ said: I think the show cant run without the male MC. Yes, he does not doing all the fighting, but he connecting the girls with each other. If we replace him with beautiful girls, it wont work. (unless if its yuri( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)) (Pauses momentarily to fantasize about Eris, Manami, and Aoi in a lesbian threesome) Yep, that would be a much better show! But back to my original point, in a harem show I'm usually not really focused on the MC anyway. A good MC can certainly increase my enjoyment, but I see that as optional. A forgettable MC might affect my rating of the show, but only in the sense that I wouldn't give any extra points for him the way I would for someone like Akatsuki from Hagure Yuusha no Aesthetica. Yup, I do agree with that. People wont look for the male lead much in harem. But harem wont go far without "nice" females. |
| This salad is salty favored |
| I think you call those "Self insert" characters. They are quite plain sometimes but depending on the anime I may or may not mind. In harem anime I'm pretty ok with that because the comedy is the main focus, but in more serious anime e.g. Angel Beats [I don't think he had enough personality] I don't really like that. I don't agree you could call the main character girl of Psycho pass a self insert because she does take more actions of her own as the series progresses. |
| “Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric "Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that. |
| anyone here play Ever17 lol |
 |
| Psycho Pass is a terrible anime, but I wouldn't describe Akane as 'flat', 'fake' or a 'self-insert'. She definitely had her own strong opinions and took decisive actions of her own. The problem was more that the actions she took were guided by nonsensical projections of her misguided ideals and wound up looking like convenient stupidity designed to cheaply contrive drama. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
SuperRed said: It's cool to hate on ecchi mkay? Even if some of them legit got some interesting/great MCs, they still get hate for whatever reasons. But in general, I would say ecchis and harems are more about the girls than the male lead in the first place anyway, so it's not like the male character has to be this deep, complex, 50 dimensional character everyone wants him to be.What I don't I get is why people shit on these type of protagonists if they come from an ecchi harem series but when it's a character like Ginko from Mushishi who has the same issues with lack of personality and character development everybody is suddenly ok with it. |
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MortalMelancholy said: 1)By which I mean, they are considered the "main character," but severely lack development and aren't fleshed out the way other characters may be--generally remaining extremely simplistic in character/personality. Often, these main characters' true intentions, motivations, and desires are left out completely. 2) You could say that they are main characters, whose character/personalities (no action) have little or no influence on the plot of the show overall. These are two completely different things! 1) Kirito from SAO doesn't have a very stable personality (some would say he changes depending on the needs of the story, from happy-go-lucky teenager to shell-shocked veteran to Hachiman from Oregairu), and isn't fleshed out enough. But he influences the story, kicks ass and takes names. There is no end of main characters whose motivations are "protect the status quo and all the people from whatever is going on". And we still watch them, because fighting the trouble is the good part! 2) Characters with personality but little influence on the story (see that Pinball Protagonist page) exist too. For example, Kyon's personality is quite memorable, but the story would not have changed if he was any other boy. MortalMelancholy said: The reason I call them "fake" is because main characters with these designs barely fit the definition of a "character," let alone a "main character" or protagonist. A character is supposed to represent a human being. Such "fake" characters are created incomplete or broken, in this regard. So what? An anime can't possibly give enough screentime to everybody, unless it's stupidly long and boring. You've got to accept that some characters wouldn't be as fleshed out as others. Classmates A, B and C don't really need names. Neither do orks #1-25 which get slaughtered in 5 minutes before the opening of the first episode. Most shows can get away with one (1) character with interesting personality. Hell, in Maoyuu nobody gets a proper name, and very few of them have personalities beyond a trope or two (quite a number of characters don't get a personality at all). And Maoyuu is still a really good show. CHARACTERS. ARE. OVERRATED. SuperRed said: What I don't I get is why people shit on these type of protagonists if they come from an ecchi harem series but when it's a character like Ginko from Mushishi who has the same issues with lack of personality and character development everybody is suddenly ok with it. That's because a lot of people here are prudes who look for stupid reasons to dislike harems, when in reality they're just against sexuality or against men. |
ilovewendy16 said: when i read "fake main character" i thought of akari from yuru yuri. the only actual fake character. *cries* Akame from Akame ga Kill. yep |
 Many things that seem threatening in the dark become welcoming when we shine light on them. |
flannan said: MortalMelancholy said: 1)By which I mean, they are considered the "main character," but severely lack development and aren't fleshed out the way other characters may be--generally remaining extremely simplistic in character/personality. Often, these main characters' true intentions, motivations, and desires are left out completely. 2) You could say that they are main characters, whose character/personalities (no action) have little or no influence on the plot of the show overall. These are two completely different things! 1) Kirito from SAO doesn't have a very stable personality (some would say he changes depending on the needs of the story, from happy-go-lucky teenager to shell-shocked veteran to Hachiman from Oregairu), and isn't fleshed out enough. But he influences the story, kicks ass and takes names. There is no end of main characters whose motivations are "protect the status quo and all the people from whatever is going on". And we still watch them, because fighting the trouble is the good part! 2) Characters with personality but little influence on the story (see that Pinball Protagonist page) exist too. For example, Kyon's personality is quite memorable, but the story would not have changed if he was any other boy. MortalMelancholy said: The reason I call them "fake" is because main characters with these designs barely fit the definition of a "character," let alone a "main character" or protagonist. A character is supposed to represent a human being. Such "fake" characters are created incomplete or broken, in this regard. So what? An anime can't possibly give enough screentime to everybody, unless it's stupidly long and boring. You've got to accept that some characters wouldn't be as fleshed out as others. Classmates A, B and C don't really need names. Neither do orks #1-25 which get slaughtered in 5 minutes before the opening of the first episode. Most shows can get away with one (1) character with interesting personality. Hell, in Maoyuu nobody gets a proper name, and very few of them have personalities beyond a trope or two (quite a number of characters don't get a personality at all). And Maoyuu is still a really good show. CHARACTERS. ARE. OVERRATED. Yeah, you're right about SAO. Kirito's just a bad MC, not a fake one--I just can't resist making fun of SAO =/ Screentime? They're set as the "main character;" so of course they're getting lots of screentime. But they normally end up less developed than other side characters that don't. Hell, even orcs 1-25 might have more character than a fake main character. If any character should be fleshed out properly, it had at least better be the goddam main character. Maoyuu goes for a different feeling, where nobody's a real character. That's different from putting a fake character into the position of a main character. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| That ill-fated dojikko secretary in Elfen Lied was perhaps the best fake main character of all time. |
| I disagree about SAO and P-P. SAO's MC is clearly meant to be a moral hero, a paragon of morality in the middle of a hopeless situation. P-P's MC also represents a clear morality different than the others. But yes, what you talk about does exist in anime. It's very hard to write a main character. It's easier to just him the observer of everything around him. The main character is, after all, the center. He demands the most work. Not to be confused with characters deliberately designed to be observers, like Yukki from Future Diary. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: I disagree about SAO and P-P. SAO's MC is clearly meant to be a moral hero, a paragon of morality in the middle of a hopeless situation. P-P's MC also represents a clear morality different than the others. But yes, what you talk about does exist in anime. It's very hard to write a main character. It's easier to just him the observer of everything around him. The main character is, after all, the center. He demands the most work. Not to be confused with characters deliberately designed to be observers, like Yukki from Future Diary. Paragon of morality? More like just an insensitive cog of a highly regulated society. Her morality isn't anything special; it's within the standards of the system, and the only thing that's special is her inability to be influenced by outside stimulus. Basically, she's an incomplete human being that doesn't actually have an impact on the plot. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
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