| I mean seriously. You can't honestly expect creators to come up with 100% original character ideas that don't venture into already existing concepts. I can understand if you give brownie points to characters that you interpret as unique or original, but I don't understand why some people get so put off with seeing types of characters they've seen before. And when you do get types of characters you've never seen before, like Makoto from School Days, the masses still get triggered anyway. It's like we're just getting harder and harder to please. Just look at Kiznaiver. People are already calling the characters tropey, even calling them tropes I didn't know existed. But what's wrong with associating characters with a self-identity? Might as well sue the creators for giving their characters a personality. Some people call giving characters a trope an "easy mode" too. You know, I can kind of flow with this one, but still, what's wrong with wanting to have simple characters? If it works for the anime, then it's perfectly fine. Not everything has to have complex characters to function well. Things like comedies and slice of life's function just well without them. Alright cool, discuss your relative positions and opinions on this matter now. |
   I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it  |
| you know "anime fans" if they can't find something to target and complain about, then they have nothing to talk about and as someone who isn't bothered by a single thing in anime, obv idc |
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| people just want something that they want, that they desire. if they hate it, then they will shit on it. that's just how the world works. so it's useless, they ain't gonna stop. my opinion on this character stuff, i think it's okay as long as it mixed well or fit well with the story. |
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| i accept nothing less then 101% originality in my anime makoto is the saviour of anime |
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| I agree with that. Not everyone can be 100% original. Viewers actually are getting harder to please, but I doubt its only because of that. It's the influence of others that make them change their view as to whether a trope is acceptable or not. The "white hair after trauma/torture" trope never bothered me until people started pointing it out and criticizing it. Now, occasionally I can't help to notice and criticize it. Tropes are cliches and a lot of cliches are extremely repetitive. So, there are some cliches that the audience has the right to blame the creators for due to lack of originality. I like some cliches, and I don't like others. Cliches can't be avoided tbh... it's almost impossible. I'm yet to see a show that's completely voided of cliches. I'm okay with some cliches if I'm entertained and if they're used appropriately and in moderation. Like, all characters in the cast can't have white hair just because of trauma, I'd call it bullshit. |
| I am still not sure why people use the word trope to exclusively define cliches or anything deemed generic -_-. As far as characters being 100% original, that's not needed in order for a series to be either good or complex. On top of that, what is original and unique to some people comes off as the opposite for others. There have been characters that many have called original, but I didn't see them to be so at all. Even some of my favorite characters that I perceived to have depth were called unoriginal by some viewers. It's easy for people to use just one word to describe something they dislike instead of actually explaining why they dislike the character or plot they are discussing. If you don't like a certain character then that is fine, but for the sake of debating at least articulate your argument instead of saying "so and so is unoriginal, generic, etc". |
 Banner credit to @turnip |
| Anime characters are meant to represent human beings. So when anime characters are written in lazy ways that are not representative of how human beings behave, it's kind of annoying. You're looking at things the wrong way. Nobody is upset writers aren't coming up with "new character ideas". We don't need "character ideas". It's not about originality. Save your lame gimmicks for the circus. We need characters who are actually human enough to be interesting. People don't like "trope characters" because they aren't real characters. They're character designs, with shallow thoughtless fill-in-the-blank fake personalities. You feel empathy for people, not mad-lib activity worksheets. |
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| Originality is unimportant. Script and execution is what really matters here. If you get momentarily tired of a specific trend or trope after seeing it for so many times just explore a different trend or trope since there are several to pick between honestly. |
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KonaKoffee4 said: I once said something very similar to a friend of mine.As far as characters being 100% original, that's not needed in order for a series to be either good or complex. On top of that, what is original and unique to some people comes off as the opposite for others. |
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| People will complain about tropes when the tropes present are ones they personally dislike. They will cherry-pick when to complain and when not to complain; only when it suits. It's all fine and well to dislike certain tropes; it's only natural. There will be things you like and things you dislike. It's just rather silly when someone decides to complain about an anime having tropes only when it's tropes they personally hate. There's no consistency to their complaining - or rather, the only consistent thing is is the inconsistency. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| It's pretty annoying to look at a character and their only trope is Tsundere or Yandere. That isn't a character, it's a copy and pasted archetype and rarely do those shows do anything interesting with it like Evangelion for tsundere or Future Diary (even if the rest of it was bad) for yandere or Grisaia for every VN waifu archetype. |
| People will complain about anything they can, so you already know the answer. |
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| There's two sides to this. There are the characters that fit under specific tropes but have a lot more depth to them inside and outside that trope. Then there are characters that are literally just the trope. |
| every single one of my forum posts is dumb and invalid except for 1, I don't claim them it was a different person it was all fake |
| Fitting into a trope is fine, but writers should give also characters enough qualities to make them unique and memorable by themselves so that they give a lasting impression on the viewer. For example Lelouch and Light both fit into the "manipulative genius mastermind" trope but the 2 have different goals, ideals and characteristics that make them distinct from one another. |
| I don't think increased tropes alone is necessarily bad, more just a sign of the times, however there are a number of shows, especially most recently, that fire tropes and cliches off aggressively, in rapid fire succession, as if to bludgeon their viewers into submission. This can annoy people to various degrees, but if you don't know the original shows or have watched much anime, you won't know that the new thing may be an oversimplified almost weaponized version of the original, and it won't bother you at all. And to reinforce, not all tropes are like this, this is just why they can be obnoxious. |
| People complain about tropes because their actions become very predictable, leading to cliche and therefore less excitement. This is especially true about side characters because it is already hard enough to create original MC, but there are usually numerous side characters in an anime. So side characters will be, in most cases, part of a trope and have a specific niche in the anime. This can really turn off a lot of people as the first thing that comes to mind would be "not this again" imo, as long as there are tits, I'm fine with it :3 |
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS. |
| Theres a lot of people in this planet. You can't expect them to not complain for anything in this life. About the topic, people complains about character beings walking tropes because made their characters simpler and without any depth. |
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| Well if they're complaining about "tropes" then that is stupid, because everything in media is comprised of tropes. A piece of media without tropes would be literally nothing. The people complaining probably mean cliches, and cliches can indeed become annoying. I don't think it automatically ruins an anime though. |
| A large part of it is they're watching shows that they already have a negative disposition towards and as such simply want to find ways to rant about it. It's kind of a weird form of masochism at least in my view. Probably the most recent example I heard was someone complaining about the "Captain Obvious" trope in one show that was airing this season. Which is arguably one of the most used tropes in visual entertainment. If it was used in a series they were in favor of it would be totally acceptable, but because they're watching a show they dislike it is now a flaw. The same logic can be pretty much applied to any series. Your tolerance for cliches/plot devices/etc. is directly relative to your enjoyment and desire to watch the show. Personally I don't really pay attention to tropes or cliches for the most part though. If I happen to pick up on one it doesn't bother me, and I try to view every series individually versus comparing it to every other version of shows using the same genres. |
| Why do people complain so much when characters exhibit "tropes"? They want to prove that the anime is shit. Only their favorite anime are good.. |
| This salad is salty favored |
| What is there to discuss if i agree that it's pointless. Sure if every character was the same it'd be a valid criticism. We aren't even close to that situation though. |
| Well I'd argue that Makoto is far from a good character, despite the fact that he does (to my delight) break the mold of the standard harem lead, which is perhaps the main thing I love about School Days in general; how unorthodox it is. The main problem isn't really when characters or story elements are tropes as much as when they're cliches, or especially, amalgamations of cliches. For instance, you can identify tons upon tons of tropes (and probably a few cliches) in Berserk, but at the end of the day, it's still able to achieve relative originality, but a title like Owari no Seraph on the other hand, is simply an amalgamation of cliche (angsty, revenge-driven and impulsive shounen main character, a "weak" younger male party member, a tsundere party member, another - simple at that magic system to fight some apocalyptic enemy, etc.), so much so that the title as a whole I think can be justly criticized for that very reason. I assume the instances your referring to though are those when people may not find genuine fault with elements of a title, but are just operating under the rationale that tropes are inherently bad (which is obviously moronic, since all art consists of tropes). |
| Because it is redundant. Also because it stems more from marketing and sales purposes than actual creativity and vision. |
| I just don't want to see the same characters over and over again. Sure, they've been used so much that these tropes have become an industry standard, which is why I judge it accordingly. But then it's always refreshing to see something new, something that deviates from the norm. If those tropes are executed well enough, I don't really mind it. It's just that I don't like watching the same thing again. They had to make 5 space sci-fi movies before I grew tired of them. |
| when the tropes are repeated over and over and over they get really old when the characters have no other qualities that differentiate them from countless others |
kamisama751 said: simple character is also tropes (like normal guy, loner, or even pervert guy). also no, using trope doesnt make something lame and cheap. IMO, genre exist because people want to watch series that sharing similiar trope.You can make simple characters that are not tropes and using tropes is still lame and cheap. trope only become annoying when it become abused. it become called cliche. and people have different refference trope, suspension of disbelieve, and resistance for this. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: You can make simple characters that are not tropes and using tropes is still lame and cheap. But that doesn't mean every character that fits into a trope is bad. It depends on execution. At least imo. Although I agree that completely copying a character repeatedly gets boring and that they should expand upon it. |
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GesuYarou said: I just don't want to see the same characters over and over again. Sure, they've been used so much that these tropes have become an industry standard, which is why I judge it accordingly. But then it's always refreshing to see something new, something that deviates from the norm. If those tropes are executed well enough, I don't really mind it. It's just that I don't like watching the same thing again. They had to make 5 space sci-fi movies before I grew tired of them. Fair enough. I myself don't like seeing the same things over and over again either. It's why I watch anime of another genre after I finish the one I was watching. I guess I just have a hard time calling characters a copy of another character when they're really not. HapHazrD said: Because it is redundant. Also because it stems more from marketing and sales purposes than actual creativity and vision. Pino fits the trope of the moe loli that was probably only put in there for character diversity. But I'm assuming she was the one that at least pulled off the trope the best for you. |
I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it |
Protaku said: GesuYarou said: I just don't want to see the same characters over and over again. Sure, they've been used so much that these tropes have become an industry standard, which is why I judge it accordingly. But then it's always refreshing to see something new, something that deviates from the norm. If those tropes are executed well enough, I don't really mind it. It's just that I don't like watching the same thing again. They had to make 5 space sci-fi movies before I grew tired of them. Fair enough. I myself don't like seeing the same things over and over again either. It's why I watch anime of another genre after I finish the one I was watching. I guess I just have a hard time calling characters a copy of another character when they're really not. HapHazrD said: Because it is redundant. Also because it stems more from marketing and sales purposes than actual creativity and vision. Pino fits the trope of the moe loli that was probably only put in there for character diversity. But I'm assuming she was the one that at least pulled off the trope the best for you. Let me just write the most important thing over again. "I just have a hard time calling characters a copy of another character when they're really not. " No one gives the show enough of a chance to even see how different the characters are. Lots of people go by first impressions. |
kamisama751 said: kotonoha no niwa is simply hopeless yet still trying to do somthing by licking each other pain which is also trope. this trope wil very abused soo blatantly in upcoming kuzu no honkai. can't wait my popcorn for it.Kuma said: simple character is also tropes (like normal guy, loner, or even pervert guy). also no, using trope doesnt make something lame and cheap. IMO, genre exist because people want to watch series that sharing similiar trope. trope only become annoying when it become abused. it become called cliche. and people have different refference trope, suspension of disbelieve, and resistance for this. The main character from Kotonoha no Niwa is for example a non-trope simple character. Genre exist because of certain elemets exist in all those setting but the character type has nothing to do with it. Mecha, sci fi, horror, action, harem, ... (I am talking about the characers by the way.) |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
TheRefractingOne said: Well I'd argue that Makoto is far from a good character, despite the fact that he does (to my delight) break the mold of the standard harem lead, which is perhaps the main thing I love about School Days in general; how unorthodox it is. The main problem isn't really when characters or story elements are tropes as much as when they're cliches, or especially, amalgamations of cliches. For instance, you can identify tons upon tons of tropes (and probably a few cliches) in Berserk, but at the end of the day, it's still able to achieve relative originality, but a title like Owari no Seraph on the other hand, is simply an amalgamation of cliche (angsty, revenge-driven and impulsive shounen main character, a "weak" younger male party member, a tsundere party member, another - simple at that magic system to fight some apocalyptic enemy, etc.), so much so that the title as a whole I think can be justly criticized for that very reason. I assume the instances your referring to though are those when people may not find genuine fault with elements of a title, but are just operating under the rationale that tropes are inherently bad (which is obviously moronic, since all art consists of tropes). Yeah that's fair. But I was mostly referring to characters rather than the story/setting. If you're put off by either the story or the setting, for whatever reason, then you probably wouldn't even give the show a chance anyway. But a character has so much room for evolution, that simply judging them off first appearances will not serve any character justice. It's almost as big a crime as judging a book by its cover. And associating a trope with a character automatically slaps a label on them that can't be easily taken off. Every character deserves a clean slate upon their introduction in my opinion. |
I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it |
| That gives me another reason to watch Kiznaiver Tho as long as it doesnt have crazy tsundere trope, its fine |
Robiiii said: That gives me another reason to watch Kiznaiver Tho as long as it doesnt have crazy tsundere trope, its fine Nope. Askorti said: Tropes themselves are not bad, it's how you use them. If your characters are basically a single walking trope, with no depth to them, then it's bad. If your characters combine multiple tropes in interesting ways are feel at least in some way unique, that's not a bad thing. Also, it's not possible to make anything without tropes, since everything is a trope in one way or another. You can't even make a tropeless work, because trying to avoid tropes is a trope in its own right. Yeah, that sounds about right. As long as you mix *insert textbook trope here* and instead mix it up a bit, then you can create a truly original character. But some people get way too turned off by certain tropes and won't even let that character define themselves outside of that pre-established notion. |
I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it |
| People just need to bitch about something, otherwise they can't be happy. For me it all depends on how the trope is done. Like I said in a previous thread I don't really like tsunderes, but when they are well done they can be great characters. The reason why I went from disliking Asuka from NGE to feeling bad for her is because of how she was written. She was a typical tsundere until Right now I'm watching Nisekoi, which also has a tsundere. I didn't like the first three episodes and Chitoge didn't really develop yet, but who knows. |
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| It's not about whether these tropes are used a million times, it's about how the author use them. So long they are interesting, I don't really mind whether it falls under a trope or not, so long it's not the typical "violent tsundere for no reason" or "bland annoying yandere" type that is present. But besides that, people like to bitch about something in a show to make their arguments seem more valid. |
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TitanAnteus said: No one gives the show enough of a chance to even see how different the characters are. Lots of people go by first impressions. Yeah, that's actually the problem. That's why I tell people to not drop a series if they don't find it interesting, you never know what potential it might actually have.. Snappynator said: It's not about whether these tropes are used a million times, it's about how the author use them. So long they are interesting, I don't really mind whether it falls under a trope or not, so long it's not the typical "violent tsundere for no reason" or "bland annoying yandere" type that is present. But besides that, people like to bitch about something in a show to make their arguments seem more valid. It's okay if a character falls under a certain trope as long as there is some amount of human element in it. The thing is that even humans irl sometimes fall into these anime tropes but each human is unique to each other. I'd like to see the same in anime as well. No two tsunderes should be alike... |
| It's okay to complain about a trope a person personally dislikes. For example, some dislike tsundere because it is too much like domestic violence to them. It's not okay to complain of the abundance of tropes in general. Trope-heavy shows can be a lot of fun. Red_Keys said: Anime characters are meant to represent human beings. So when anime characters are written in lazy ways that are not representative of how human beings behave, it's kind of annoying. You're looking at things the wrong way. Nobody is upset writers aren't coming up with "new character ideas". We don't need "character ideas". It's not about originality. Save your lame gimmicks for the circus. We need characters who are actually human enough to be interesting. People don't like "trope characters" because they aren't real characters. They're character designs, with shallow thoughtless fill-in-the-blank fake personalities. You feel empathy for people, not mad-lib activity worksheets. No, people don't really like "real" characters. For example, Rokka no Yuusha. Fremy the Rei clone who lives for revenge has 1015 favorites. Nashetania, who is a lot more real, has only 52 favorites. Rei clones are just naturally a lot more appealing than strong female characters. lasterrending said: There's also a bit of worry that anime is growing too homogeneous. How can I enjoy new shows if they're all clones of what I've already watched? If the trend continues, the anime medium will turn into a competition over who can make the best combination action/mecha/romance/harem/slice of life show with too much fanservice, and at that point the industry will be doomed. That would be awesome! I mean, "the best combination action/mecha/romance/harem/slice of life show with too much fanservice". In reality, a single show would not be able to support all this stuff without turning into a comedy. That's why we have different genres and sub-genres. Anime isn't becoming homogenous, some people just let similarities cloud their vision. Also, anime had genres for a long time. There is a game whose aim is to emulate 90s fantasy anime, like Slayers. Because it's codified enough that you can make a game out of it. |
| I don't get why it's so hard to understand. Some people don't want to see the same thing over and over and over. There are plenty of unique anime - Cowboy Bebop, Simoun, Haibane Renmei There are plenty of anime that take an existing concept and fool around with it - Date A Live, Digimon Tamers, Kill la Kill, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Why shouldn't I complain if something is familiar, unoriginal and dull? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| I never had a problem with *tropes* in general. It's how its used that I direct my usual criticism at. A trope is not really a bad thing, in the general scheme of things. |
ethotApr 21, 2016 4:03 AM
TheBrainintheJar said: Why shouldn't I complain if something is familiar, unoriginal and dull? Because when the author doesn't have to muck around with the overall shape, he/she can use it to deliver messages, expand the part that is most relevant to him/her, and do other cool stuff. |
| A trope can be used as a framework for a character, and the creator can explore much deeper beyond that trope, they could even link a character's backstory to the trope they exhibit. Nothing wrong with tropes, it's just that people aren't satisfied their characters are not explored beyond that. |
| “Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric "Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that. |
| There is no character in which is 100% Original. They always have some tropes adapted from other characters. I honestly never care about generic character tropes, as long as it's well explored and developed (e.g Taiga Aisaka), I'm okay with that (although not changing my view for disliking tsunderes tho). Character Exploration>>>>>>>>>>Anti-Mainstream Trope |
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flannan said: TheBrainintheJar said: Why shouldn't I complain if something is familiar, unoriginal and dull? Because when the author doesn't have to muck around with the overall shape, he/she can use it to deliver messages, expand the part that is most relevant to him/her, and do other cool stuff. If they use a familiar template to focus on other stuff, then it's no longer dull. JoJo and Digimon Tamers are traditional stories, but they're hardly unoriginal. They use a familiar template for a specific purpose and don't just hang in there. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| I think what you mean to say is "why do people hate cliches", not "why do people hate tropes". Pretty much every character in any sort of fiction is made up of tropes. This isn't a bad thing; when so much fiction has been made before, it's downright impossible to write a completely original character. The problem is, viewers are tired of seeing the same tropes over and over again. Anime is supposed to be a creative, engaging medium. Using the same stock characters isn't creative, nor does it keep the audience's attention for long. Originality, or lack thereof, is the reason battle harem light novels and Yuru Yuri clones are among the most hated genres/get the most threads every season complaining about them/etc, because they're just so copy and paste. Even if a series is its genre executed perfectly, if that genre has been done to death, no one will be pleased to watch it. |
KaoruMatsuoka said: I think what you mean to say is "why do people hate cliches", not "why do people hate tropes". Pretty much every character in any sort of fiction is made up of tropes. This isn't a bad thing; when so much fiction has been made before, it's downright impossible to write a completely original character. The problem is, viewers are tired of seeing the same tropes over and over again. Anime is supposed to be a creative, engaging medium. Using the same stock characters isn't creative, nor does it keep the audience's attention for long. Originality, or lack thereof, is the reason battle harem light novels and Yuru Yuri clones are among the most hated genres/get the most threads every season complaining about them/etc, because they're just so copy and paste. Even if a series is its genre executed perfectly, if that genre has been done to death, no one will be pleased to watch it. Meh. I don't think people have that much tolerance for media nowadays. I've never gotten bored of the super hero genre. I still look forward to movies like Dr. Strange and whatnot even though I know for a fact that a lot of the old Marvel Tropes are gonna be there. I mean. Everyone thought Guardians of The Galaxy was gonna be super different, but it had the same quirky characters making small quips every two minutes as every other Marvel movie. It does enough to stand on its own though. Same with battle-harems in large part. Taimadou Gakuen and Chrome Shelled Regios are like night and day, but they have a lot of similar tropes. I personally think the people who don't see originality are those really close-minded people who just focus on "all the things they've seen before." To be honest, I don't like Yuri Yuri but I like Love Lab, and they're very similar. Like VERY similar. What makes me like one over the other is what each does to make itself stand out as itself not what they have in common. Seitokai no ichizon and Seitokai Yakuindomo are also both REALLY similar, but Yakuindomo's better for me because of the pacing. I like them both but they both have aspects about them that make them original. People who thought Asterisk, Rakudai, and Taimadou were the same just needed to watch more of each show to see they'd be wrong. |
TitanAnteus said: KaoruMatsuoka said: I think what you mean to say is "why do people hate cliches", not "why do people hate tropes". Pretty much every character in any sort of fiction is made up of tropes. This isn't a bad thing; when so much fiction has been made before, it's downright impossible to write a completely original character. The problem is, viewers are tired of seeing the same tropes over and over again. Anime is supposed to be a creative, engaging medium. Using the same stock characters isn't creative, nor does it keep the audience's attention for long. Originality, or lack thereof, is the reason battle harem light novels and Yuru Yuri clones are among the most hated genres/get the most threads every season complaining about them/etc, because they're just so copy and paste. Even if a series is its genre executed perfectly, if that genre has been done to death, no one will be pleased to watch it. Meh. I don't think people have that much tolerance for media nowadays. I've never gotten bored of the super hero genre. I still look forward to movies like Dr. Strange and whatnot even though I know for a fact that a lot of the old Marvel Tropes are gonna be there. I mean. Everyone thought Guardians of The Galaxy was gonna be super different, but it had the same quirky characters making small quips every two minutes as every other Marvel movie. It does enough to stand on its own though. Same with battle-harems in large part. Taimadou Gakuen and Chrome Shelled Regios are like night and day, but they have a lot of similar tropes. I personally think the people who don't see originality are those really close-minded people who just focus on "all the things they've seen before." To be honest, I don't like Yuri Yuri but I like Love Lab, and they're very similar. Like VERY similar. What makes me like one over the other is what each does to make itself stand out as itself not what they have in common. Seitokai no ichizon and Seitokai Yakuindomo are also both REALLY similar, but Yakuindomo's better for me because of the pacing. I like them both but they both have aspects about them that make them original. People who thought Asterisk, Rakudai, and Taimadou were the same just needed to watch more of each show to see they'd be wrong. I disagree. GOTG was very different and I say that as someone who dislikes Marvel. Sure, it had the template but it fooled around with it. It put it in a different setting - a wild, Space Opera-like scenary. It was more lighthearted and fun. The characters were less like superheroes, and more like a gang of oddballs. If you enjoy watching the same things over and over, fine. I don't have a reason to watch two shows exactly the same. Life is too short for that. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
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