| Or: "You should cherish yourself! Be a good girl! Don't send me sexual invitation!" It annoys me whenever a guy declines a girl's sexual invite by saying that, and he would expect the girl to be thankful for his "chivalry". When this cliche played out in the last episode of Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo (highlight to see spoiler), I was kinda annoyed by the guy who said that but was also glad that the show, unlike many other anime, did not make the girl weep thankfully, but instead shows us how this line hurt the girl's feeling by denying her sexual agency, by treating her as an object, something to be kept immaculate for the male's fascination with feminine purity. If you're a guy and you don't want to have sex, that's OK. What bothers me is trying to patronise a woman by practically telling her "you would be more valuable by keeping yourself in chastity." I don't know how often things like this happen amongst Japanese highschoolers in real life (I don't remember I have seen anything like that in life-action Japanese movie or TV drama), or is it just a contrived trope first used by ecchi manga-ka to avoid crossing the line, or is it just how otaku people who never have been in a relationship in real life imagine how teen romance should be. Either way it sucks. |
CHCSep 18, 2019 9:10 AM
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| Japan have a Virginity Crisis or Sex Crisis thing so im not gonna be surprise if its a real cultural phenomenon |
| I think it's a poor decision to not advance the plot. I hate when these things happen, if they won't do it, why making it so for the fans to angry them? (most of them). Maybe it's an otaku thing, they want their waifus pure and stuff and maybe they consider that part of story good. I think there's nothing wrong with having sex with the person you like, even if you part ways afterwards, sex is part of life. I'm glad that stuff like karekano and scum's wish exist. |
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| On the other hand in anime usually sex is treated as some form of rape...in such light this means that he really likes her. |
| Well, what's wrong with guy telling the girl to cherish herself more or what u want her to be some kind of sex maniac sorry to say this dude but girls should cherish themselves more unlike sleeping around with God knows how many guys like that is some kind of norm in your countries and same for the guys too otherwise u don't even need a girlfriend if u just love her body but not the girl because most of the times I see gf/bf they date like for 3 or 4 months do sex like some bitch in heat than break up with him/her than date next one I heard that these kinds of things are very normal in Europeans countries not that I know but I guess u should respect other countries culture have we ever said anything about your cultural things? |
| This wound me up a bit too, but I'm nearly 40 now and live in the UK. I imagine my school days differ quite a lot from modern day Japan. But the same types of people tend to pop up again and again all over the world, some shy types & some people who love sex. Personally, imo I wish we had more anime for people in the latter category. Maybe, rushing into sex when you haven't even kissed yet is something that probably wouldn't happen anywhere, with nearly anyone. Can anyone out there say they had sex with someone before they kissed someone? What Izumi said is the most 'normal' reaction for most guys out there, but the reason he said it is another matter. |
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| Rather than calling it 'treating her like an object', it is 'treating her as an innocent subject', it is the process of seeing a personality from the other, where there is no such personality. The question is what happens when one's ideals of the other is proven wrong. |
RogueCitizen64 said: I might not agree with it, but Japan's socioculture view's are it's own business. I believe people outta stop trying to impose their view on them. I don't even think anime is representative Japanese culture. If you watch live-action movies, Jdrama or read any Japanese novels aimed at a mature audience, you would know the conservative obsession with virgins is probably not a universal thing in Japan. One reason why otaku are still frowned upon in its own land is precisely because of their often juvenile attitude towards love and sex. It's often said that girls avoid them because they have unreasonably idealised picture of romantic relationship. |
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| That Araburu example doesn't illustrate your point too well, because that was more an excuse to avoid telling how he truly feels than a trope of a sex version of 'damsel in distress'. But yeah, I've seen that trope even in western media and it always bothers me, as I feel it's extremely condescending and it's trying to place the guy in a elevated moral position in relation to the girl. |
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| Most Japanese authors are probably herbivore men themselves. |
Kurgo said: Sorry but in that situation she pretty much without any reason, warning or anything came up to his room and said OK LETS HAVE SEX BOIIIIIIII. You seriously would consider that normal? Since the two of them can barely hold hands? I didn't see it as a "value your chastity" to be honest, the way Izumi said it, it was more on the lines of "there's no reason to rush things so much" since he quite literally said "I want to treat you right". Which is exactly what "not having your first time ever at random" means, to me. It still sounded very much like an excuse but that's hardly the point anyway. By all means I'm not a fan of that clichée (as if we've seen it a ton of times anyway, I certainly haven't since guys in anime are usually mostly pervs) but the example is plain wrong, so far as I'm concerned. THANK YOU. Reading the topic made me really think: Did OP and I watched the same scene? It's also worth mentioning that their classmate got pregnant recently, so that probably made Izumi think a lot more on the consequences of doing that ramdonly. But with that being said, I also liked that it hurts Kazusa feelings. It was a good scene overall because both characters had their reasons to do what they did |
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| I like the way this was handled in Araburu, although I agree that in general this is a pretty poor thing to do. In the story it has its place in this instance, although some stories certainly use this the wrong way. But it made me dislike Izumi because he was acting like asshole there. When it's used as a pure escape phrase to avoid heated situation without any follow up I think it's bad to use it. It's pretty stupid thing to say since it denies any kind of free will of the girl to decide what she wants to do with her body. Of course if the male character suspects she did the decision based on poor reasoning he could try to have a talk about it, but dismissing it with such a phrase is just stupid. However in case of Araburu I think it was intentional poor handling of the situation on Izumi's side, so I don't see this as a weakness, although that will depend on how will the plot progress from this point on. |
| Otome-dono gave me more of the opposite vibe, of the girls feeling that they only have value, only are of interest to guys or in general if they do have sex, if they have sexual experience, and kinda losing themselves in that idea and losing track of other things that matter in the process. I don't think that's healthy and I don't think there's anything wrong with the narrative providing a counterweight to that to show that not every guy thinks like that. You can argue about the execution and the phrasing and I can't really comment on that since I didn't finish the show, but from what I saw in the first X episodes the girls interest in sex felt obsessive and mostly based on them worrying how others would perceive them if they lack experience in that area which I don't think is a good reason to pursue it for any age or gender so I'd say an ending like that isn't problematic per se if its purpose is to reject that kind of obsession based on outside factors. But well, that's just me, I'm one of those guys who wouldn't want to have sex immediately or just for the sake of it, but only as the culmination of an intimate relationship so I can relate to what the guy did, although as I said I can't comment on how it was done and what exactly he said. I definitely agree that it shouldn't be made to sound like her value depends on not having sex, just like it doesn't depend on her having sex. Sex or sexual experience has nothing to do with a person's value or my interest in them either way. |
AlcoholicideSep 18, 2019 4:50 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I don't even think this is a strictly Japanese subject at hand though. I remember in sex-ed uhhh 8? 9? years back, the teacher passed around a rose and told everyone to like, oh stroke the petals!! feel how soft!! and by the time it got back they were like "yeah see how it's all nasty now? this is what it's like if ya'll ladies have SEX so don't thanks peace out love god wait until marriage" and granted I'm in the bible belt but REGARDLESS I do think this is a move to... "save face" for the woman but in reality it benefits otaku men. The same reason why idols aren't allowed to date because it maintains the idea of "purity" and "innocence" and also again ties in with how idols face punishment if they break dating bans. Notably the infamous 2013 AKB48 instance with Minami Minegishi comes to mind if ya'll recall that. What I'm trying to get at is just the classic notion of conservative values being sex=bad abstinence=good. Yeah. |
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ghostliness said: I don't even think this is a strictly Japanese subject at hand though. I remember in sex-ed uhhh 8? 9? years back, the teacher passed around a rose and told everyone to like, oh stroke the petals!! feel how soft!! and by the time it got back they were like "yeah see how it's all nasty now? this is what it's like if ya'll ladies have SEX so don't thanks peace out love god wait until marriage" and granted I'm in the bible belt but REGARDLESS That was a disturbing story. I'm so glad I grew up in a secular country and educational system. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
RogueCitizen64 said: CHC said: I don't even think anime is representative Japanese culture. If you watch live-action movies, Jdrama or read any Japanese novels aimed at a mature audience, you would know the conservative obsession with virgins is probably not a universal thing in Japan. One reason why otaku are still frowned upon in its own land is precisely because of their often juvenile attitude towards love and sex. It's often said that girls avoid them because they have unreasonably idealised picture of romantic relationship. Japan's obsession with women's purity long preceded otaku culture. The whole Yamato nadeshiko concept for instance is routed in the historical idea of the ideal Japanese woman and 'purity' has always been one of the most emphasised point. And while I find all this really weird, I still don't it's the place for non-Japanese to tell what to think. Contemporary Japan has moved on from that. If some of them haven't yet, they should. And I hate how often "cultural difference" is used as an excuse for creepy Westerners to fantasise about a place where women are supposed to be submissive and feminists do not exist. But feminists do exist in Japan and Japanese women do rebel against their patriarchal culture. They are rarely seen in anime but they're all around in movies, Jdrama, novel, art, and other areas of culture battling against patriarchal mentality. Their works are part of Japanese culture too. It is not so much about different cultural sensibilities, but more about whether it hurts women and whether it denies women's agency. I don't think "culture" is an excuse to be exempt from criticism. Like, if you ask me if I'm against the rape culture in India, I won't say "hey don't impose our view on India rapists. They have their equally valid view on women. Just let India women enjoys their adventurous life in India!" Granted, Japanese patriarchy is in general much milder than the Indian ones, but to think Japanese women do not feel oppressed by it is a creepy Orientalist yellow fever fantasy. |
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RyaReisender said: Seems your example is pretty bad for getting your point across. But I know what you mean. There are plenty animes where two people love each other and are together but don't even kiss or only kiss months into the relationship and don't have sex at all even after years. It seems to be a cultural thing in Japan that having sex is pretty bad. Idols often say that if they would have sex (or it would get public they had sex) their career would be over. Maybe it's also with making anime that if the characters stays "pure" they are more popular among the audience, so more merchandise of them gets sold. At least there are some animes that are a bit different from the norm like Nana and Scum's Wish. There're many more classical examples around but they usually exist in trashy show so I can't be bothered to find out where I've seen them. Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo is actually a pretty nice show which criticises this kind of attitude. It's written by a woman (Mari Okada), after all. I guess she too fucking hates being told by a guy what to do with her vagina as if he knows better than her what's good for her. The idol culture spawning from AKB48 has been a complete crap. It's dominated by otaku and a lot of them have inferiority complex regarding to their non-existing sex life. So that's why they can't seem to deal with the simple idea that you can't buy an idol's private life no matter how much money you paid for the concerts and the merch. The rest of Japanese pop culture is fucked up as well but not as extreme as otaku idol culture. They're more obsessed with adultery than virginity. Nana is great. The best anime romance I have ever seen. Shoujo and Josei are often much more mature in this respect. Even though I won't deny various versions of rape fantasy and "romancing with the bully" in Shoujo can be quite unsettling too. |
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CHC said: spoiler Haven't finished reading, but you just spoiled Araburu Kisetsu for me. Come on, spoilers from the latest episode of an ongoing show? And this is not even in the anime page, it's the general forum and without any warning or spoiler tag. You don't even mention the anime by name before the spoiler. Please be a little more considerate next time. |
AnotherGuy said: CHC said: spoiler Haven't finished reading, but you just spoiled Araburu Kisetsu for me. Come on, spoilers from the latest episode of an ongoing show? And this is not even in the anime page, it's the general forum and without warning or spoiler tag. Please be a little more considerate next time. I didn't think it was a spoiler. I didn't mention who are the characters in questions or any detail. I don't think that part matters that much but if you think your joy for reading the manga is spoiled by it, I am sorry. I don't think it is expected in a discussion thread about a trope in anime, shows which used that trope would be mentioned. If that counts as a spoiler, I'll add a warning. |
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| Thanks for spoiling me about "Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo" dude, I hope you die in a fire. About your question, what's annoying is if the character doesn't explain why he rejects the girl. lf it's a stupid reason like cherishing her. If that girl likes him or vice-versa or if they want to be in a relationship than the cherishing excuse works. Since after they spend time in a relationship it will feel more natural when they finally do decide to have sex. But if it's just to do it to know what it feels like and they don't plan on being in a relationship, than yeah the guy is right and he should reject her because he cares for her and doesn't want to destroy something precious. |
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| That's definitely my type of guy and such scenes are more than welcome for me since I hate, absolutely detest sex. |
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Hey_Taka-tin_Hey said: Gotta keep the waifus 100% pure, or the otaku will get mad as hell. Seiyus should also stay pure virgins or the otaku group will get mad and boycott you example is the Haruhi voice actress |
| I doubt Japanese teens are like that, even though they probably aren't as open with sex as other cultures. Pretty sure that cliche only exists to pander to otaku with a romanticised and unreal idea of relationships, just as it used to be in the west (not sure how much western entertainment still uses that cliche nowadays). |
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| I don't think the example you listed is a good one. In that case, it was more of her wanting to rush into sex, and he was like let's take it more slowly rather than you're too pure for sex. Plus, if all goes right, it'll explain at the end why his lustful feelings for her are weird but in general, I think to an extent it just gets tiresome. Even more so when they restrict things like hand-holding and kissing, which I get can have emotional attachments to them, but postponing them for so long is like nani the f |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
CHC said: What?It annoys me whenever a guy declines a girl's sexual invite by saying that, and he would expect the girl to be thankful for his "chivalry". When this cliche played out in the last episode of Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo (highlight to see spoiler), I was kinda annoyed by the guy who said that but was also glad that the show, unlike many other anime, did not make the girl weep thankfully, but instead shows us how this line hurt the girl's feeling by denying her sexual agency, by treating her as an object, something to be kept immaculate for the male's fascination with feminine purity. This is so out of context. Izumi is just saying that as an excuse because he is personally feeling guilty over getting sexually attracted towards Niina despite being in love with Kazusa and therefore is having difficulty being physical with her like when he doesn't want to even hold her hand anymore as shown earlier and made an excuse to not hold hands Dude isn't treating her like an object at all here or wanting her to be thankful for his chivalry |
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| That seems to be more of an anime thing. As you will hear from Japanese people, many things from anime do not translate to real life. Chances are if a guy who frequently watches porn was dating a girl and she wanted to have sex, he would do it. In fact I think most guys would understand a line like that would not make their girlfriend happy. |
| I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. |
Maou_heika said: That's definitely my type of guy and such scenes are more than welcome for me since I hate, absolutely detest sex. Sounds to me like you've just had really shitty sex |
| I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. |
| It's honestly so irritating because in the same series the girls explain that they "think about it too". Sex and intimacy all prop up a healthy relationship, it's more strange that they wouldn't want to be sexual with their partner. Love and lust are two sides of the same coin after all. |
 ʙᴇᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴀꜱɪᴇꜱᴛ ᴡᴀy ᴛᴏ ᴋᴇᴇᴩ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ɢᴇᴛᴛɪɴɢ ʜᴜʀᴛ yᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴠᴇʀ ᴇᴠᴇɴ ʟᴏᴠᴇᴅ yᴏᴜʀꜱᴇʟꜰ yᴏᴜ'ʀᴇ ᴀʟʟ yᴏᴜ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴀɴᴅ yᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴠᴇʀ ᴇᴠᴇɴ ʟᴇᴀʀɴᴇᴅ ᴛᴏ ʟɪᴋᴇ yᴏᴜʀꜱᴇʟꜰ |
CHC said: So are you also annoyed if a female character say it to a male character to the same degree? Because I have seen it happening. I've also seen it happening where a male says it to another male though to be fair the male whereto it was said was a trap.Or: "You should cherish yourself! Be a good girl! Don't send me sexual invitation!" It annoys me whenever a guy declines a girl's sexual invite by saying that, and he would expect the girl to be thankful for his "chivalry". When this cliche played out in the last episode of Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo (highlight to see spoiler), I was kinda annoyed by the guy who said that but was also glad that the show, unlike many other anime, did not make the girl weep thankfully, but instead shows us how this line hurt the girl's feeling by denying her sexual agency, by treating her as an object, something to be kept immaculate for the male's fascination with feminine purity. If you're a guy and you don't want to have sex, that's OK. What bothers me is trying to patronise a woman by practically telling her "you would be more valuable by keeping yourself in chastity." I don't know how often things like this happen amongst Japanese highschoolers in real life (I don't remember I have seen anything like that in life-action Japanese movie or TV drama), or is it just a contrived trope first used by ecchi manga-ka to avoid crossing the line, or is it just how otaku people who never have been in a relationship in real life imagine how teen romance should be. Either way it sucks. That having been said — I am not a sexual moralist. _Ridley_ said: Agreed.Acting like the whore-madonna complex is unique to Japanese otaku subculture is so amusing I may never stop laughing. That's so old and Western a concept that Freud wrote about it. Some of you have never read any feminist theory, and it shows. What you're describing isn't Japanese, it's patriarchy, and it's just about everywhere. Where "patriarchy" is just an obnoxiously gendered, meaningless word to describe "traditional gender roles" and imply that some boogeyman single-gender collective is the one to blame for it, of course. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| Oh, this definitely pisses me off too. I'm not against anime characters staying virgins, waiting for marriage, or anything like that; if it works for them, who am I to judge. But there's definitely something gross and off-putting about presenting it like the girl having ANY sexual experience beforehand will somehow "stain" her or whatever. She's not a porcelain vase, dude, she's not something you're supposed to protect from breaking. |
| I always assumed this was because the Japanese always had a thing for purity and innocence when it came to women (old Japan did at least, don't know what the general public thinks is desirable now), so that brought this cliche line into anime. I was never a fan of it because it's basically telling someone that what they desire isn't as important as the other's ideal. It's like it isn't giving them a choice with how they want the relationship to go, and making it seem like their decision is bad. If someone wants to say it go ahead, but at the same time I don't think that's something that should still be considered chivalry, that's just being a herbivore and putting your girl on a pedestal, as if sexual desire is something only men are allowed to have. Honestly in the west this seems like it'd be called a very awkward and neckbeard phrase if it was commonly said enough to be considered a cliche in fiction. There may be a cultural difference between me and the Japanese, but that doesn't mean I can't share my opinion about it. |
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| [quote=Sphinxter message=58389127] CHC said: So are you also annoyed if a female character say it to a male character to the same degree? Because I have seen it happening. I've also seen it happening where a male says it to another male though to be fair the male whereto it was said was a trap.Or: "You should cherish yourself! Be a good girl! Don't send me sexual invitation!" It annoys me whenever a guy declines a girl's sexual invite by saying that, and he would expect the girl to be thankful for his "chivalry". When this cliche played out in the last episode of Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo (highlight to see spoiler), I was kinda annoyed by the guy who said that but was also glad that the show, unlike many other anime, did not make the girl weep thankfully, but instead shows us how this line hurt the girl's feeling by denying her sexual agency, by treating her as an object, something to be kept immaculate for the male's fascination with feminine purity. If you're a guy and you don't want to have sex, that's OK. What bothers me is trying to patronise a woman by practically telling her "you would be more valuable by keeping yourself in chastity." I don't know how often things like this happen amongst Japanese highschoolers in real life (I don't remember I have seen anything like that in life-action Japanese movie or TV drama), or is it just a contrived trope first used by ecchi manga-ka to avoid crossing the line, or is it just how otaku people who never have been in a relationship in real life imagine how teen romance should be. Either way it sucks. That having been said — I am not a sexual moralist.[quote] I've never seen that happens. If it ever happens, it just won't any sense, because there isn't a culture where men are valued for being a virgin until marriage. Where "patriarchy" is just an obnoxiously gendered, meaningless word to describe "traditional gender roles" and imply that some boogeyman single-gender collective is the one to blame for it, of course. Stupidest straw man argument ever. Please read some actual theory before buying into any alt-right anti-intellectual distortion of the concepts you don't understand. Patriarchy is a form of sociocultural system, not a male-collective conspiracy. Men are not in conscious control of patriarchy. They do not consciously conspire with each other to establish a system that benefit themselves.They're part of the product of the system which is a historical product, which has existed before they and their fathers were born, but since they benefit more from this system than women do, they're more inclined to defend it (like you just did) by claiming that this system of domination doesn't exist. That's not saying women cannot be complicit in the system (eg. a mother who force her daughter into an arranged marriage). Just like slaves are often complicit in the slavery system by trying to please their master, by spying on other slaves. That doesn't mean slavery is a oppressive system against the slave. |
CHCSep 20, 2019 3:29 AM
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| I love it how the replies that basically remove his reasoning for this thread OP just conveniently ignores. Glad i skipped this one. |
| The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
_Ridley_ said: Acting like the whore-madonna complex is unique to Japanese otaku subculture is so amusing I may never stop laughing. That's so old and Western a concept that Freud wrote about it. Some of you have never read any feminist theory, and it shows. What you're describing isn't Japanese, it's patriarchy, and it's just about everywhere. I see you only joined recently and like me you're a bit older. I was a bit shocked by how sheltered some younger people are these days, but then I think what I was like as a teenager. I certainly wasn't as wise to patriarchal ideas that are hammered into so many young people as they grow up, although it's getting better, slowly and they'll always be groups who resist. I had Germaine Greer's feminist notions beaten into me by my sociology teacher at college (who herself was a gorgeous beauty who I dated years later) and opened my eyes, now I see how women have been controlled through patriarchal norms weaved into our media. |
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| Don't Let Your Dreams be Dream JUST DO IT |
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DarkSyndicate said: As if I would ever have sex #virginforlifeMaou_heika said: That's definitely my type of guy and such scenes are more than welcome for me since I hate, absolutely detest sex. Sounds to me like you've just had really shitty sex |
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alshu said: On the other hand in anime usually sex is treated as some form of rape...in such light this means that he really likes her. Wtf 😕 rape happens when someone forces itself on other, without their consent...sex is a way to pleasure yourself and your partner, yes its primal but isnt a bad thing |
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_Ridley_ said: 23feanor said: I see you only joined recently and like me you're a bit older. I was a bit shocked by how sheltered some younger people are these days, but then I think what I was like as a teenager. I certainly wasn't as wise to patriarchal ideas that are hammered into so many young people as they grow up, although it's getting better, slowly and they'll always be groups who resist. Haha, I try not to remember myself as a teenager because I totally was one of those Not Like Other Girls girls and thought I was above sexism because I had masculine hobbies and physical strength. Reality straightened me out on that front over the course of my 20s. I do actually think the kids are alright these days. The teenagers in my life are engaged and thoughtful, and teenagers on tumblr and twitter are a national treasure, which is probably why this forum is so frustrating to me. I know young people are capable of brilliant media critique. Lucky you, i mean that genuinely as it's so hard to tell from a written message. You're lucky in the people you know that age. The young people I've been acquainted with recently have been a bunch of feckless yobs tbh. Although sometimes I'll see a person wise beyond their years make a really good quote either here or on discord/reddit, so I know it's not all doom and gloom for the youth of today. Just look at all the school kids striking from school in aid of Climate Change all around the world today, that's impressive (although I imagine a lot of them didn't need much convincing to take a day off school, haha). |
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