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CrashRHCP 7 hours ago
Hey, thanks for accepting the friend request.
I'm used to see you posting around on manga forums often and you have a good manga list, so I kinda wanted you on my circle of friends c:
Safeanew Yesterday, 5:37 AM
I saw you wrote about Chesterton in profile comments and I wonder do you recommend his fantasy works?
What are your thoughts about him and his works?
CHC Apr 15, 11:30 AM
You clearly know way more about fantasy than I do. I guess I'll have to read about the authors you mentioned to have a more rounded understanding of the genre. The articles you sent me is quite interesting. It piques my curiosity about Mieville’s urban fantasy.

I think my point of view is in more rooted in my dissatisfaction with the modern dualism that rigidly separates the mechanical-rational realm of reality and the spiritual-mythical realm of the mind. Magic realism as I see it seems to be an attempt to breathe meaning into our physical world by seeing events as connected with each other not in terms of objective causes-and-effects, but in terms of (inter)subjective human meanings. In One Hundred Years of Solitude, there is a character whose death caused her blood flowed through the entire city. Such an physically inexplicable event can only be understood in terms of the anguish of her death. Blood is no longer just a physical liquid which in itself carry no meaning - within the narrative it has become something inherently meaningful, as its motion is governed by such meaning. A magic realist text forces us to see the world through metaphorical logic rather than systematic logic, and to experience the fantastical not as an alternative rule-governing system, but as something entirely inexplicable in terms of rules. I know it’s perhaps a rather peculiar perspective I’m presenting here. I'm obsessed with such a perspective because I'm philosophically interested in how the ancients saw the objects in the world as inherently meaningful through their myth-making, and I'm curious about whether we can revive that practice of mythical thinking, without going back to pre-Enlightenment obscurantism, as a way out of the modern condition of nihilism.

So the reason why I said "most modern fantasy is deeply bought into the idea that our world is a disenchanted world and the point of fabricating myths is to provide escapism" was not that I think fantasy writers generally do not care about reality. I said that because it seems to me the point of fabricating fantastical elements in fantasy is not an attempt to bring back mythical thinking to our disenchanted world. Mythical thinking remains something the characters might do, while the reader do not. Fantasy written in this way can indeed be very socially engaged - for example in a fantasy there can be class conflict and racial inequality that parallel the real world, but then this is not a distinctively mythical engagement with the real world. Just like there are two different ways historical writing can engage with the present: 1) using history to teach us a lesson about the present (eg. we might write about the Holocaust to remind people the danger of xenophobia); 2) to instil historicising thinking into the mind of the reader, that is, to encourage people to think of everything as being in a process of continuous change, in order to resisting the tendency of thinking whatever social reality that now exists as having always existed and existed in the same form. (For example, history can help us see how capitalism slowly came about from 15C onwards through a set of deliberate efforts and struggles motivated by the special interest of a particular people, and thus to see that it is not the natural order of things, but a human product that could be altered by human action.) So there're also two ways for fantastical writing to engage with reality: 1) using myth to illustrate a message; 2) to instil mythical thinking. And it's from the perspective of the latter that I'm comparing fantasy and magic realism. Though admittedly I'm much more vague about what mythical thinking actually is - that's something I'm still thinking, and I'm aware of the danger of myth in a modern world too (Fascism had a close relation with myth-making - "blood and soil"), so basically I'm just speculating.

The Japanese cinema in the 60s-70s was closely related to the left-wing student movement at the time. Very similar to how the French New Wave was connected with what preceded and followed May 1968. An aesthetic revolution mirroring a political one. I always think it's a very exciting time, when artists were inspired by a vision of a new world, instead of being entirely incorporated in commercial logic like we now are. But then, we've come to this because they've failed.

I'm a Chinese. I grew up in Hong Kong and then I moved to the UK for study when I was 18.
Actually I came to appreciate Hollywood movies only until recent years. When I was younger I only loved highly stylised or highly philosophical films, because basically I despised entertainment. And yes, I was quite influenced by Adorno, but even before I read any Frankfurt school I wasn't quite into anything that's too transparent and requires no effort to enjoy. Perhaps I was driven by a youthful elitist spirit. I was a huge fan of Mark Rothko (I still am) and I thought Andy Warhol is just mildly interesting. Eventually I came back to entertainment because of my disappointment with modernism and its seriousness. I have become less convinced in the power of art to bring sublime meaning into life. So why not just try to be content with the superficial? That's why I came to look for a kind of postmodern playfulness/irreverence in anime like Kill la Kill and Space Dandy too. The Big Lebowski, a very postmodern film, has also become one of my recent favourites. I didn't think particularly highly of Hollywood Golden Age in the past because of its transparent style. But now my feeling about directors like Billy Wilder might have already changed. As I no longer see depth or personal vision as necessarily paramount, I come appreciate commercial films from a more technical aspect like the way you do with Jurassic Park. Though I'm still bored by Nolan. He has been trying too hard to bring complexity to a plot that only has simplistic characters in it. The same thing with Iñárritu. They should in my opinion pay more attention to characters instead of coming up with another arthouse gimmick to distract people from their weak characters.
It's also kind of interesting that a lot of mainstream Hollywood directors have come to fame in recent years as auteurs with distinctive styles. I'm still stuck at thinking of "the typical mainstream Hollywood" through the image of Titanic - invisible style, spectacle, conventional plot and characters, and American faith in individualism.

I haven't read the manga adaptation, but I think the charm of Iwai's film is not easily translatable into manga. I guess it would help if you watch the 2004 live-action film first. It's made before its "prequel" Satsujin Jiken. It's one of the best teen romance film in my opinion. Haven't seen A Scanner Darkly, but I have seen some clips from Waking Life, also by Linklater. I think it comes down to how rotoscoping is used. Those in Town Worker is pretty bad and it looks like they could've just filmed a live-action and it would've been better. But its dialogue is just so good and it's what all anime scriptwriters should learn from a live-action filmmaker. (Dialogue is often the worst thing in anime, especially in drama. One thing Gridman of last year impressed me a lot is its naturalistic dialogue and VA. That’s just very rare in anime.) There're also live-action directors who have borrowed extensively from anime, like Sion Sono. But the anime industry and the anime market is just too insulate from any influence outside otaku culture. The result is every season we're seeing another round of recycled cliches.
CHC Apr 13, 12:36 AM
Yes, it's harder to make good fantasy movies now because high budget usually means you need to dumb down the content for an extremely broad and diverse audience. But I think literature is still fine, as magic realism is still a giant thing. Marquez, Salman Rushdie, Jose Saramago, Murakami, Calvino, etc., even though magic realism doesn't really belong to fantasy genre. Actually, I think magic realism is a better way to do fantasy than fantasy is, as paradoxical as it might sound. Tolkien is less interesting for me not because he is unimaginative, but rather because of the way he uses his imagination. Most modern fantasy is deeply bought into the idea that our world is a disenchanted world and the point of fabricating myths is to provide escapism. On the other hand, magic realism re-animates our experience of our world through re-conceiving them in terms of mythical imagineries. In fact, I think magic realism is closer to the way ancient myths were made. Ancient myth-makers made myth not because of an interest in fictional world-building or escapism. Myth was a way for ancient people to understand their own world. Those creation myths existed in almost all major ancient civilisation were not intended to be an entertaining replacement of mundane scientific explanation of the origin of the world, they were intended to be an explanation itself, and were intended to provide a sense of meaning for the community. For example the myth of Great Flood in China was a story about a sage, one of the earliest mythical emperors of China, mitigating the disaster by mobilising people to construct dams and canals. The myth was not just about free play of imagination. It informed Chinese people the origin of the state and the source of its legitimacy, which has to everything to do with mass mobilisation for huge agricultural engineering projects. Magic realism is quite similar to ancient myth in this respect: they try to understand our world and our place in the world through myths. For example, One Hundred Years of Solitude is exactly a mythical re-telling of modern Colombian history. If I've read about Banana Massacre in a history textbook I would probably forget everything about it in a few mouths, but when it's transfigured into a myth in Marquez's novel it leave a much more vivid impression while preserving the essence of the historical event.

Yes I thought it was weird for Wandering Son to adapt the middle of the story too, but they have done an amazing job in implying everything we need to know about their backstories without using flashback or exposition. In fact I think it's how every drama anime should be. Many anime either pretend their cast do not have an interesting past at all or they resort to use flashback and exposition, therefore disrupting the flow of the story about the present. And yes, as you said, it has so many characters that's explored in depth simultaneously through their continuous interaction with each other. That's why it has impressive side characters like Anna even though she took up very little screen time. A typical mediocre show would be like "hey we've done enough character development for character A. Let's make something happen to character B so we can deal with that character in more depth."

I haven't watched Aoi Hana yet. Will definitely try.

I haven't seen Werckmeister Harmonies yet. Turin Horse is really the only Bela Tarr's film I have seen so far. Even though I liked Turin Horse (it fits my gloomy sensibility), his film is just too intimidating to watch in a casual setting. I feel like I have to be in the right mental condition in order to watch it, and it has to be on big screen too. But I'm curious about the hopeful feeling you saw in Werckmeister Harmonies, because Turin Horse is like the most nihilistic film I have ever seen.

Have you seen Angel's Egg? Its emphasis on slowness, cold ambience and alienation is pretty similar to Tarkovsky. Very few anime share this kind of sensibility.

It's interesting that you mentioned Robert Bresson, because I think Bresson's vision is also very grim, and probably more so than Tarkovsky in how he is decidedly anti-poetic. He refused to romanticise the absurdity of life by having the actors showing the least emotion on screen. But I think Bresson is still more focused on the individuals rather than the ambient feeling of the place like Tarkovsky does. In Tarkovsky or Angelopoulos there is an overwhelming sense of powerlessness of the individuals against the wheel of history and the alienation of modern environment.

Have you seen this video essay on Bresson's style? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgI_4AxeRF8
It's pretty nice.

I haven't watched Throw Away Your Books, but Shuji Terayama's Pastoral: To Die in the Country is one of my favourite japanese arthouse. Japanese cinema was full of great experimental arthouse in the 60s and 70s (the Japanese New Wave). Have you checked out Woman in the Dunes? A masterpiece. As for Tetsuo, I loved the opening sequence but everything after is just too repetitive. It's more like a cult classic than an arthouse for me.

Oh Wong Kar-Wai, the director of my home country. I've seen everything he has made except for As Tears Go By. In the Mood for Love was the film that introduced me into the world of arthouse when I was in high school. Before that I wasn't into film at all because I had only seen typical Hollywood genre movies and they bored me to hell and I thought all movies are like that. I also love Happy Together. I watched it for the first time right after a break up and this film touched me deeply.

It's always great to meet people who has a broad interest in all kinds of art. So many people on MAL has a pretty restricted horizon because anime is the only thing they watch. The anime industry itself need to learn from other art forms too. Recently I've watch the short anime directed by the filmmaker Shunji Iwai, called Town Workers (not sure if there's eng sub.) It's rotoscoped and badly animated but damn, the dialogue is so good! It's so fresh and naturalistic it drew me in the moment they speak. It's extremely rare to see anything like that in regular anime because most people who works in anime industry are not great observers of real life. So every anime character speak like any other anime character. Iwai also directed an animated film The Case of Hana & Alice and it is in my opinion better than most coming-of-age anime.
Deathko Apr 10, 3:12 AM
Huhhh... What? I'm not going to praise Go Nagai for his writing or awesome characters, but I don't see how Miki is here "just to lick Akira's boots" (man that's sexy, don't take me by the sentiments like that :p ). Akira is the main character and all the others around him are only seen through that prism: You don't learn anything more about Ryo or Miki's parents than about Miki herself.
If anything, she's very far from an idealized fetish girl. She swears worse than any dude in the show, never hesitates to insult or beat the shit out of someone, etc. And she doesn't blush while screaming "that's not what you think, b-baka!". She's much more active than other late 60s/early 70s heroins. Just compare to Genshi Shounen Ryu where the female is literally dragged around by the MC. He grabs her by the wrist and fucking RUNS while her butt drags on the ground.

Sure, something like Elfen Lied would probably not exist without Go Nagai. Just like Call of duty wouldn't exist without Goldeneye 64, or Terminator 4 without the first two. It doesn't mean good precursors need to suffer for the sins of what they inspired :p
CHC Apr 10, 1:39 AM
I see. I haven't really keep track of contemporary Western entertainment (not quite a superhero fan myself), so it's hard for me to make comments on. The only Western fantasy I've seen recently is Game of Throne. And yes, it does feel like Western media is just borrowing legends rather than creating legends. Even with Lord of the Ring (which I've never managed to finish), the entire set up is clearly not intended to be a mystification of our world. It's not like most legends where the distinctions between myth and history, imagination and fact are often blend together (eg. Homer's Odyssey). Usually legend is created to tell truth about the human conditions (especially about human fear and anxiety) through falsehood -- I think that's the intention of The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost as you mentioned, and it's probably also true for Gothic writers in 19C like Edgar Allan Poe. But with more recent entertainment, the obsession with ancient myth and Gothic elements is mostly just for the exotic appeal and escapist fascination with world-building rather than as an attempt to enchant our world with mythical meaning. Such a postmodern tendency is certainly also strong in Japanese entertainment, but they've also got other things like Mushishi which has retained a very strong allegorical subtext about human conditions, similar to traditional Yokai stories.

I'm still having a hard time getting into the world of Aria. I'm less annoyed about the character growth in Aria than Amanchu!. It's more about how often the story is unsubtly constructed to convey some moralising message. There is an episode in the first season anime, in which there is a grumpy customer who looked down on Undine as an occupation, and the story of the episode is about him getting converted by the main girls' good spirit and becoming a fan. It's this sort of stories that kind of put me off. (I was put off by Violet Evergarden for the same reason.)

Oh I love Wandering Son! Haven't got around to finally read the whole manga yet (the first time I read it was years ago but it was still publishing so I've put it on hold.) The anime is great too. For a time (when I'm still in highschool) manga was the only popular medium that dealt extensively with transgender issues, but it looks like there are fewer manga that transgress gender boundary now.
I also loved IS Otoko Demo Onna Demo Nai Sei which deals with intersex.

I've seen a lot of plotless Western films but most of them are strongly theme-driven. A lot of arthouse films would fall under the "plotless, theme-driven" category, similar to Naked.

For example Eric Rohmer's films are usually about wandering around in a resort town, meeting with random people, having lunch and chatting with friends, but in the process of doing mundane things the main character would make up his/her mind to make one important life decision or would have one important epiphany. So it's very "slice of life" at the same time very philosophically themed.

Angelopoulos' films like Eternity and a Day and Tarkovsky's film like Stalker are more like Girls' Last Tour in how they show us characters travelling through a desolate landscape, with a lot of silent, meditative moments, but the formers are much more ridden with themes like loneliness and existential yearning, and are overall very grim (Naked took influence from them).

And then there's Play Time, the greatest comedy film in history in my opinion, which has no plot and focus on none of its characters. It's somewhat like playing Sim City and you zoom in and zoom out and you discover a lot of funny things happening inside the city. It's poking fun at the modern, urban way of life in every details. But however cheerful it is, it doesn't try to calm you or assure you in the way iyashikei anime do.

I think Western films (even arthouse) in general just do not try to produce a "Zen" feeling or a peaceful state of mind like iyashikei anime and Ozu's movies do, however slowly-paced, plotless and meditative they are. In fact usually the slower they are, the gloomier they would become. One of the slowest film I have seen is The Turin Horse, which is super grim. I guess "zen" is just not something that can easily take root in Western culture which has consistently valued Being over Nothingness since ancient Greece. But things become different if you move a bit toward the East: a lot Iranian films are "slice of life" and they're more about the strength of rural community than the soullessness of urban life. Through The Olive Trees is one of the best Iranian film, which is about a group of people nonchalantly travelling across Iranian rural landscape and making a movie along the way. It's slow and calm but the tone is thoroughly cheerful and reassuring.

Do you happen to have seen any Asian arthouse films? There is a whole "movement" called "Asian slow cinema". You can see a lot of very nostalgic/iyashikei films like Dust in the Wind, Kids Return, A Scene at the Sea, Our Little Sister, Still the Water, The Mourning Forest, etc.
CHC Apr 7, 11:51 PM
I'm not very familiar with how Western mythology is used in pop culture, but I guess the difference might have been the outcome of a monotheistic culture of the West. There is a very definite line between Christian and pagan, orthodoxy and heresy in the Western tradition, so historically artists have to be very clear about the distinction between presenting something as truth and as fiction. In East Asian culture, storytellers and the people who listen to them, in history, do not care about that distinction because centralised religious authority had a very limited power over the daily life of the people.

Oh I love Yuru Camp too. I especially like how it is not about "a shy introvert opening up to others" like many other shows are. It features characters that has a more or less stable, self-sufficient personality interacting with each other, instead of imposing a certain direction of personal growth/improvement to the characters as a way to construct an overarching narrative. For example, as much as I love the character design of Amanchu!, it's somewhat annoying for me to see the heroine is constantly pushed to grow in one predestined direction. It feels moralising. A lot of anime has the same problem when they feature an introvert as the main character, as if being introvert means being incomplete. It's extremely rare to see anime ever going to the opposite direction like the Great Gatsby: it seems for anime, the society is always stable, self-sufficient and complete, and individuals can only become a complete person by participating in the society. They can never be corrupted and consumed by the society.

Yeah, Knights of Sidonia has a lot of typical teeny power fantasy and harem elements in it. I guess he wanted to appeal to a broader audience. It's probably how he got two seasons of anime adaptation too. Sometimes it's better to have a smaller ambition and to be content with being a niche.
CHC Apr 6, 1:44 AM
I have not heard of practice like that in feudal or ancient Japan. I think it's probably not a wide-spread practice even if it did exist. The mountainous and archipelagic geography of Japan has in history given rise to a lot of rather isolated villages. That led to a lot of legends around the strange practice of those provincial communities. The famous legend of ubasute is one of them. But it's often hard to measure how much the legends correspond to the truth. Folklore tellers throughout the history of Japan loved making up legends too. So it is also possible that the author of the manga is just making it up, or it's just a legend she heard from her grandma. It's also possible that it has got a more established folkloristic/historical reference, but in that case I'm just not knowledgeable enough to tell what that reference is. My guess is if it was a true practice, it could be some superstition about boys being more susceptible to evil spirits than girls because boys were regarded as more valuable. Infant mortality in the past was high even for rich families, so it's also possible that they prefer their children who die early die as girls rather than as boys to avoid bad omen. But these are just my hypotheses.

I'm particularly interested in how the girls in GLT interacted with the environment free from the obligation of pushing the "plot" forward. A lot of "adventure" shows are not really about the adventure. The characters are always being urged by a very definite goal they have to achieve. If they're looking for a legendary sword, then everything you see on your trip that is not related to the sword is rendered meaningless. However gorgeous looking they are, you will not play around with them unless they serve a plot function. But when you have no definite goal at all, you begin to treat the space around you as something interesting in themselves, rather than just a stage set up for other events to take place. I find it particularly fascinating to me because I love traveling on my own, wandering meaninglessly in a strange town. I also enjoy shows like Mitsuboshi Colors which is about a group of children wandering through the town playing freely without rules or purposes.

The reason I dropped Blame the manga is mostly because of the panelling. I love its outlandish sci-fi setting and it's what I have always been wanting for from a manga/anime. But the panelling is so hard to follow intuitively, it just messed up the experience for me. I had the same problem with Knights of Sidonia the manga too and I dropped that too. The anime fixed the sense of space and the flow of action for me but the CG also looks pretty awful.
Karhu Apr 6, 12:24 AM
Sure it can make a difference from the viewer's perspective, but if you ask the question: "How exactly would the thing need to be different if it was about a) mental illness or b) imagination or c) magic?" You should see that it doesn't matter what it is called. We don't have to abandon every piece of fiction because such questions, we can simply give value to works which weren't as vague.

Whatever Kun becomes is just a fanfiction. And again, being "normal" and "realistic" can't automatically defend anything. It's also normal that people with attitude problems are annoying and easy to hate, so I guess we can say me going against his character is also "normal".

>I honestly can't picture Kun or Mirai turning into anything like you describe

People have gone far worse for far less. The world is full of people who commit rape and crime in the name of religious cults, politicians who start genocide for money, nations which sentence gay people to death for being gay, etc,etc. These people were raised in the name of religion, in the name of common law, and raised for political career by their parents. You don't see how bad parenting can lead to person who already sees and experiences things that are not "real" to do drugs? He is already experiencing things close to psychedelic, if he stops seeing them when he gets older, won't it also be "normal" for him to start seeking things that give him similar experience? Parenting is the most important form of education, and saying that lack of parental attention can't lead someone to the "wrong" path strongly implies that education is meaningless.

>It's not a form of herd mentality

Not sorry, but how exactly is "this is how parents commonly raise their child and that's why these parents should also raise their kids this way" not a form of herd mentality?
Karhu Apr 5, 7:37 AM
Hey,

Yeah not the biggest fan but let's.

Whether we call it just a magical factor in the series, the outcome of schizophrenia or just based imagination of a child, it really makes no difference.

When it comes to the realism factor of the parents, I don't think it can automatically defend a work of fiction or anything IRL either for it becomes nothing but a form of herd mentality. If we look into it, free education and lack of proper adult role models / parental figures could be said to be the lead cause for everything that is wrong with kids these days. The cases of child abuse, teenage pregnancies, and drug usage are growing. There are literally 10 years old kids in my country doing pills and alcohol during school days and trading sex for cigarettes. It has expanded on a ridiculous magnitude in recent years. The amount of young adults who are becoming social outcasts is rising and 19% of males aged 16-18 have gotten a sentence in court for crimes they have committed. It all reflects back to parents and if this is what they really commonly do, then perhaps they should stop doing what everyone else supposedly does.

And to talk about my experience with kids, I have actually spend more time with 5-12 years olds than you would think, and when I did (not anymore), I gave them my full attention 10-15 hours a day. Kids are kids only for so long, parents really should check their values and what they want from life. I understand it is hard to earn them cash and run household + keep up all the relationships and balance their shit, but they're your fucking kids, don't make them if you can't grow them to be better persons than you're, is what I will say. Perhaps these parents aren't as bad as they are portrayed in the movie / seem to me, but only appears so because of Kun's jealousy and perspective. Either way, I have never appreciated when parents seem this way and I have quite disliked it ever since I saw Spirited Away where the parents gluttony turned them into pigs and they even forgot they have a child. Disgusting.
Shymander Apr 5, 2:48 AM
Someone who read it pointed out to me that there actually is a competitive eating manga called Kuishinbou!.
CHC Apr 5, 1:56 AM
Hey nice to meet you here! I haven't read Hyakki Yakoushou. Could you send me a picture of it? But I'm not particularly well-versed in Japanese custom, so I might not be of much help.

Yes, Girls' Last Tour is even more explicit in its embrace of inactivity. Chito was more goal-oriented and she tried to understand herself through her position in the world (thus her attachment to the relic of civilisation), but her was slowly converted to Yuuri's way of life. They eventually gave up, in a cheerful way, on finding any overarching meaning of the world they live in. I love just how it pushes the idea of "iyashikei" to an extreme.

I didn't manage to finish Blame! the manga. Seen the 2017 movie though, but I don't remember a lot from it.
TONYBoii Mar 27, 12:08 PM
EXTREMELY cute pic this time bro!! ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ 。・゚゚・(>д<)・゚゚・。 (◕ω◕✿) <(^.^<) m/.(><).m/
(^.^)v ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ~d(~.~)b~ ~(‾⌣‾~) (~‾⌣‾)~. ∩( ・ω・)∩ (●´⌓`●ლ)

(°∀°)b ( ´ ▽ ` )ノ .ಠ_ಠ ヽ(=^・ω・^=)丿
Unowen Mar 24, 5:07 AM
Hikki_a1 Mar 23, 6:13 PM
Unfortunately that movie is going to be the last of the series.

You should definitely watch Oregairu, it is so good.