CapitalistGod said: yeah now I think it is dumb when I use to be into this shit. I had this dumb theory that yugi could beat master roshi in a fight."I want to get stronger" or at least an illusion of it is what young boys usually fantasize with... I think it's just that you grew up that you find it dumb. |
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TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: All 'skills' in a story are meaningless. Whoever wins the fight isn't based on skill, since the characters aren't actually fighting. It's not even two pieces of digital data fighting. The person who wins in a fictional fight is the person the creators choose that wins. They need to make that victory meaningful. How does it affect the plot? The relationship between the characters? The characters themselves? These are the interesting questions. You didn't necessarily say anything untrue, but it seems like you're missing the appeal of theoretical match-ups. For some, imagining how different sets of powers would clash can be just as interesting as imagining how a certain set of powers would affect "everyday life" if they existed in the real world. In other words, character match-ups aren't really about the story. It's a thought experiment. But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. They all have their own habits and techniques aka a style, you're just using fiction as an excuse. Naruto doesn't have the same style as the hulk or a sniper or defensive character. |
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| Power levels are hype as fuck, bro. When they like break the limit and stuff and the bad guy is like 'shit'. That's some real energy right there, man. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: You didn't necessarily say anything untrue, but it seems like you're missing the appeal of theoretical match-ups. For some, imagining how different sets of powers would clash can be just as interesting as imagining how a certain set of powers would affect "everyday life" if they existed in the real world. In other words, character match-ups aren't really about the story. It's a thought experiment. But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. That the powers are fictional is irrelevant to their worth in a thought experiment. In fact I would argue it is the extremes that fictional powers provide that make these match-ups interesting, and even in close cases, the gap is often wider than in, say, a real life cage fight. It's much more difficult to determine who has trained more, who's faster, who hits harder, etc., than it is to, say, talk about the more unique problems that would arise for both sides if a rough telekinetic fought someone who can control airflow, and who would have the edge (or clear victory) as a result. Plus, you're entirely wrong if you're implying that a character's abilities and skills cannot be studied. In fact, we can often make hard determinations of the extent of a character's ability precisely because they are static, unlike with a real life fighter whose abilities are always in flux. There's also the fact that fictional fights can talk about a lot of things that aren't nearly as relevant in a cage match. If neither side knows the other's powers, for example, the element of surprise can become a critical factor in determining the likely victor. I hold that you're simply misunderstanding the appeal. |
TripleSRankSep 20, 2016 2:47 PM
| How is complaining about this, of all things, even a thing? |
TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. That the powers are fictional is irrelevant to their worth in a thought experiment. In fact I would argue it is the extremes that fictional powers provide that make these match-ups interesting, and even in close cases, the gap is often wider than in, say, a real life cage fight. It's much more difficult to determine who has trained more, who's faster, who hits harder, etc., than it is to, say, talk about the more unique problems that would arise for both sides if a rough telekinetic fought someone who can control airflow, and who would have the edge (or clear victory) as a result. Plus, you're entirely wrong if you're implying that a character's abilities and skills cannot be studied. In fact, we can often make hard determinations of the extent of a character's ability precisely because they are static, unlike with a real life fighter whose abilities are always in flux. There's also the fact that fictional fights can talk about a lot of things that aren't nearly as relevant in a cage match. If neither side knows the other's powers, for example, the element of surprise can become a critical factor in determining the likely victor. I hold that you're simply misunderstanding the appeal. How can you measure the power of a character who doesn't exist? How can you measure it when the deciding factor - how strong a character is - is entirely in the hands of the creator? ichii_1 said: TheBrainintheJar said: But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. They all have their own habits and techniques aka a style, you're just using fiction as an excuse. Naruto doesn't have the same style as the hulk or a sniper or defensive character. How is it 'just an excuse'? You're measuring physical feats of objects that don't exist. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: ichii_1 said: They all have their own habits and techniques aka a style, you're just using fiction as an excuse. Naruto doesn't have the same style as the hulk or a sniper or defensive character. How is it 'just an excuse'? You're measuring physical feats of objects that don't exist. It's a fictional debate and those objects are the same as real life unless stated otherwise then it's just math if you want to go that far. http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/36-ren-x30-energy-toriko.18085/ Creator and plot doesn't matter in a debate since they are compared on feats and abilities not story. |
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MasterHavik said: Before I head out to the library. I wanted to talk about some thing that always bothers me when I am looking to talk about shouen anime that I like. No matter what the show is...outside maybe One Punch Man. Every fandom has to make some stupid power level chart. I find them dumb since the writers and director will decide whoever wins decided by the plot. So what is the point of a power level chart if someone like Gon became a hunter via getting knock the fuck out by some bleach reject. I wish the people behind these things will just lay out strengths and weaknesses for all their characters and stick to them. Superhero comics do this....and it works well for the most part...unless your name is Superman or Batman...and sometimes Spiderman. But it's better than some power chart still. Anyway what are your thoughts? Power levels are only an issue for me when you end up like Dragon Ball Super and guys have power levels past 1billion or so because the series is so fargone. |
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hoopla123 said: Your power depends on how many friends you have. Basically this sums up all of the shit in Shounen Series... |
TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: That the powers are fictional is irrelevant to their worth in a thought experiment. In fact I would argue it is the extremes that fictional powers provide that make these match-ups interesting, and even in close cases, the gap is often wider than in, say, a real life cage fight. It's much more difficult to determine who has trained more, who's faster, who hits harder, etc., than it is to, say, talk about the more unique problems that would arise for both sides if a rough telekinetic fought someone who can control airflow, and who would have the edge (or clear victory) as a result. Plus, you're entirely wrong if you're implying that a character's abilities and skills cannot be studied. In fact, we can often make hard determinations of the extent of a character's ability precisely because they are static, unlike with a real life fighter whose abilities are always in flux. There's also the fact that fictional fights can talk about a lot of things that aren't nearly as relevant in a cage match. If neither side knows the other's powers, for example, the element of surprise can become a critical factor in determining the likely victor. I hold that you're simply misunderstanding the appeal. How can you measure the power of a character who doesn't exist? How can you measure it when the deciding factor - how strong a character is - is entirely in the hands of the creator? As ichii stated, you use feats as the basis of the debate. The story and the creator themselves are borderline irrelevant in a versus debate because characters from different stories were never "meant" to fight each other anyway. Thus, it doesn't matter if, say, ONE claims Saitama can destroy literally anything in one punch. Instead, you would look at what Saitama has actually done (e.g. blowed apart a city-sized asteroid with one punch, propelled himself from the moon to the earth in a few seconds, reacted to attacks moving faster than the speed of sound, etc.) to determine how strong he is. Until he's actually shown to perform feats more impressive than his previous feats, he's no stronger than those feats show him to be. |
TripleSRankSep 21, 2016 11:15 AM
| When you're watching Hunter x Hunter, One Piece or JoJo fight, the question isn't *usually* "who's going to win", well maybe Hunter X Hunter, Hisoka vs Chrollo for instance, it's *how* their going to win. One Piece admittedly has utilized this far less than the other two, though. But even than, what's on your mind isn't "Is Luffy going to defeat Doffy", it's "who's gonna eat Ace's fruit" or "what's going to happen to all these characters", or "When will Gon meet his father, what will happen?". See Crocodile for the best One Piece examples. You *know* what the end result of a battle is going to be in the end of the series/arc in the long run, but even in the worst of battle manga, it's so much more than that. But, I agree that I'm not that into "CAN NARUTO SOLO AKAINU AT KAMEK'S HOUSE?" discussions. |
ashfrliebertSep 21, 2016 11:45 AM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
TheBrainintheJar said: The characters have in universe feats which can be compared and statements from the authors . Take for example this matchup I made on Comicvine between Vixen and Tsunade http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cw-vixen-animated-vs-tsunade-shippuden-war-arc-1806868/But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. To prove Vixen's superior speed and agility to Tsunade I showed her feats of outmaneuvering the Flash and reacting to Arrow's arrows and also of bullet dodging. Tsunade doesn't have any speed feats in Naruto so one guy was using an official statement about a ninja throwing a kunai at super sonic speed in order to determine her speed through scaling. I disagreed with him because throwing speed is not the same as running speed and combat speed (hand to hand) but anyway there are ways to determine difference in characters' speed, strength etc. It doesn't matter that they are fictional characters. |
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ichii_1 said: TheBrainintheJar said: How is it 'just an excuse'? You're measuring physical feats of objects that don't exist. It's a fictional debate and those objects are the same as real life unless stated otherwise then it's just math if you want to go that far. http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/36-ren-x30-energy-toriko.18085/ Creator and plot doesn't matter in a debate since they are compared on feats and abilities not story. How are they the same as real life if they're not a part of real life? |
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_Poochyena_ said: Kind of a reason why I have not watched an episode of the series. I have read the manga and it's great.MasterHavik said: Before I head out to the library. I wanted to talk about some thing that always bothers me when I am looking to talk about shouen anime that I like. No matter what the show is...outside maybe One Punch Man. Every fandom has to make some stupid power level chart. I find them dumb since the writers and director will decide whoever wins decided by the plot. So what is the point of a power level chart if someone like Gon became a hunter via getting knock the fuck out by some bleach reject. I wish the people behind these things will just lay out strengths and weaknesses for all their characters and stick to them. Superhero comics do this....and it works well for the most part...unless your name is Superman or Batman...and sometimes Spiderman. But it's better than some power chart still. Anyway what are your thoughts? Power levels are only an issue for me when you end up like Dragon Ball Super and guys have power levels past 1billion or so because the series is so fargone. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: ichii_1 said: It's a fictional debate and those objects are the same as real life unless stated otherwise then it's just math if you want to go that far. http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/36-ren-x30-energy-toriko.18085/ Creator and plot doesn't matter in a debate since they are compared on feats and abilities not story. How are they the same as real life if they're not a part of real life? I believe he meant fictional objects are treated as real objects in all aspects except where they are shown to be unlike real objects. This means we accept that a ray guns works and the results of a shot from it hitting something are "real"; however, because ray guns themselves are not real we can't reliably determine other properties, such as muzzle velocity, in most cases. |
TripleSRankSep 21, 2016 5:12 PM
| Its simply fun i guess. Im pretty sure the creator of a shounen anime takes into account the power levels of other shounen. |
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DrGeroCreation said: TheBrainintheJar said: The characters have in universe feats which can be compared and statements from the authors . Take for example this matchup I made on Comicvine between Vixen and Tsunade http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cw-vixen-animated-vs-tsunade-shippuden-war-arc-1806868/But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. To prove Vixen's superior speed and agility to Tsunade I showed her feats of outmaneuvering the Flash and reacting to Arrow's arrows and also of bullet dodging. Tsunade doesn't have any speed feats in Naruto so one guy was using an official statement about a ninja throwing a kunai at super sonic speed in order to determine her speed through scaling. I disagreed with him because throwing speed is not the same as running speed and combat speed (hand to hand) but anyway there are ways to determine difference in characters' speed, strength etc. It doesn't matter that they are fictional characters. But why does it matter? How can you measure the physical properties of an object that doesn't exist? Physical feats are only impressive because they're related to the limits of the human body. If the human body had no limits, 'fast running' wouldn't exist. Fictional characters have no physical limits since they're not physical objects. TripleSRank said: I believe he meant fictional objects are treated as real objects in all aspects except where they are shown to be unlike real objects. This means we accept that a ray guns works and the results of a shot from it hitting something are "real"; however, because ray guns themselves are not real we can't reliably determine other properties, such as muzzle velocity, in most cases. Why treat these fictional characters as 'real'? I never treat them so. Sure, it might be fun but it's like people who fill their heads with pointless facts about a world that doesn't exist. It doesn't matter at the end. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: I believe he meant fictional objects are treated as real objects in all aspects except where they are shown to be unlike real objects. This means we accept that a ray guns works and the results of a shot from it hitting something are "real"; however, because ray guns themselves are not real we can't reliably determine other properties, such as muzzle velocity, in most cases. Why treat these fictional characters as 'real'? I never treat them so. Sure, it might be fun but it's like people who fill their heads with pointless facts about a world that doesn't exist. It doesn't matter at the end. You can trivialize many, many things as "not mattering" in the end because "what matters", particularly in matters of entertainment, depends on personality and taste. Let me show you: Why care about who can run the fastest? I've never cared about it. Sure, it might be fun to find out, but it's like people who want to compete in arbitrary activities instead of living their lives. It doesn't matter in the end. The actual answer to your question can take many forms, some of which I've already explained. Use of analysis, logic, and problem-solving faculties are enjoyable for many people, and this is one such way to exercise those skills. It might not be fun to you, but that hardly makes it "pointless" or "worthless", at least not any more than playing a sport, video game, etc. Aren't you just being stubborn at this point? |
| Interesting fact; it wasn't Akira Toriyama's idea to have power levels in Dragon Ball. He was asked to put it in. Basically, if you ask him about who has more power, this this that, he probably wouldn't answer you because he doesn't bother. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Why does it matter if one boxer is better than the other? Why does it matter if one martial artist is more skilled than the other? By taking in universe feats into consideration as I said before. Fictional characters do have limits which are put on them by the authors. Like Kenshin in his universe can't just start flying and firing planet busting attacks like DBZ characters.DrGeroCreation said: The characters have in universe feats which can be compared and statements from the authors . Take for example this matchup I made on Comicvine between Vixen and Tsunade http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cw-vixen-animated-vs-tsunade-shippuden-war-arc-1806868/ To prove Vixen's superior speed and agility to Tsunade I showed her feats of outmaneuvering the Flash and reacting to Arrow's arrows and also of bullet dodging. Tsunade doesn't have any speed feats in Naruto so one guy was using an official statement about a ninja throwing a kunai at super sonic speed in order to determine her speed through scaling. I disagreed with him because throwing speed is not the same as running speed and combat speed (hand to hand) but anyway there are ways to determine difference in characters' speed, strength etc. It doesn't matter that they are fictional characters. But why does it matter? How can you measure the physical properties of an object that doesn't exist? Physical feats are only impressive because they're related to the limits of the human body. If the human body had no limits, 'fast running' wouldn't exist. Fictional characters have no physical limits since they're not physical objects. |
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MasterHavik said: Before I head out to the library. I wanted to talk about some thing that always bothers me when I am looking to talk about shouen anime that I like. No matter what the show is...outside maybe One Punch Man. Every fandom has to make some stupid power level chart. I find them dumb since the writers and director will decide whoever wins decided by the plot. So what is the point of a power level chart if someone like Gon became a hunter via getting knock the fuck out by some bleach reject. I wish the people behind these things will just lay out strengths and weaknesses for all their characters and stick to them. Superhero comics do this....and it works well for the most part...unless your name is Superman or Batman...and sometimes Spiderman. But it's better than some power chart still. Anyway what are your thoughts? its simple. power charts create stakes. though you are right, and it always comes down to whatever the author decides, power rankings are a way of defining your villain/hero. if vegeta, a guy with a high power level gets beaten up by frieza, than frieza must be a bad ass. this is a strategy used in most fiction (anime, live action, cartoons). |
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MasterHavik said: Really? togashit?But HxH is interesting and I been loving it on toonami. First arc was dope and the way he writes things is fucking awesome so refreshing. that tard literally ripped off YYH. given yyh is his own work. But HXH is is written the exact same way. its the same show. with only new characters going thru the same things. Mod Edit: Added spoiler tags; please hide plot details. |
ShockedSep 23, 2016 7:33 AM
DrGeroCreation said: TheBrainintheJar said: Why does it matter if one boxer is better than the other? Why does it matter if one martial artist is more skilled than the other? By taking in universe feats into consideration as I said before. Fictional characters do have limits which are put on them by the authors. Like Kenshin in his universe can't just start flying and firing planet busting attacks like DBZ characters.But why does it matter? How can you measure the physical properties of an object that doesn't exist? Physical feats are only impressive because they're related to the limits of the human body. If the human body had no limits, 'fast running' wouldn't exist. Fictional characters have no physical limits since they're not physical objects. Real fighters teach us about the limits of the physical body. Their achievements aren't impressive just because, but because we compare them to the limits of the human body. If there are no limits to break, there are no major achievements. There are no such physical limits on fictional characters since they're not physical entities. TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: Why treat these fictional characters as 'real'? I never treat them so. Sure, it might be fun but it's like people who fill their heads with pointless facts about a world that doesn't exist. It doesn't matter at the end. You can trivialize many, many things as "not mattering" in the end because "what matters", particularly in matters of entertainment, depends on personality and taste. Let me show you: Why care about who can run the fastest? I've never cared about it. Sure, it might be fun to find out, but it's like people who want to compete in arbitrary activities instead of living their lives. It doesn't matter in the end. The actual answer to your question can take many forms, some of which I've already explained. Use of analysis, logic, and problem-solving faculties are enjoyable for many people, and this is one such way to exercise those skills. It might not be fun to you, but that hardly makes it "pointless" or "worthless", at least not any more than playing a sport, video game, etc. Aren't you just being stubborn at this point? If you're interested in researching the human body, who run the fastest is important information since it informs you about the limits of the human body. Guko doesn't, because he's not a physical entity. |
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| In some animes, sure. In others, not really. |
TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: You can trivialize many, many things as "not mattering" in the end because "what matters", particularly in matters of entertainment, depends on personality and taste. Let me show you: Why care about who can run the fastest? I've never cared about it. Sure, it might be fun to find out, but it's like people who want to compete in arbitrary activities instead of living their lives. It doesn't matter in the end. The actual answer to your question can take many forms, some of which I've already explained. Use of analysis, logic, and problem-solving faculties are enjoyable for many people, and this is one such way to exercise those skills. It might not be fun to you, but that hardly makes it "pointless" or "worthless", at least not any more than playing a sport, video game, etc. Aren't you just being stubborn at this point? If you're interested in researching the human body, who run the fastest is important information since it informs you about the limits of the human body. Guko doesn't, because he's not a physical entity. You're dancing around the question. Why is what's real important in this context? Or perhaps you're implying you're a doctor, and thus real-world limits are uniquely relevant to you? That still doesn't answer why it should be important to everyone else, though. |
| One problem more than character strength is their durability. One character may look weak but they can tank planet buster attack easily. |
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KuroudoAkabane said: You can't rip off something you created....that is similar to what people say about Sonic Shuffle. (They call it a marioparty rip off.). I think parts of the anime and gaming community need to learn what rip off means. Btw...I also enjoyed YYH...funny just like that show this one also has a great English dub. Talk about lightning striking twice. MasterHavik said: Really? togashit?But HxH is interesting and I been loving it on toonami. First arc was dope and the way he writes things is fucking awesome so refreshing. that tard literally ripped off YYH. given yyh is his own work. But HXH is is written the exact same way. its the same show. with only new characters going thru the same things. Mod Edit: Added spoiler tags; please hide plot details. Also I'm not reading your spoilers. |
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| Arguing power level is one of if not the dumbest things in this community |
| It is so dense. Every single image has so many things going on. |
| Let me ask you this : What in a battle shounen is not dumb?? |
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TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: If you're interested in researching the human body, who run the fastest is important information since it informs you about the limits of the human body. Guko doesn't, because he's not a physical entity. You're dancing around the question. Why is what's real important in this context? Or perhaps you're implying you're a doctor, and thus real-world limits are uniquely relevant to you? That still doesn't answer why it should be important to everyone else, though. I pointed out how it can be important to those who are interested in the physical body. The 'power levels' don't really exist (Is there a chart that displays Saitama's power? Goku's power? Superman's power?) and how can you mix them? It's like a fight between characters from Diablo II and characters from Skyrim. I get it that 'people enjoy it' but why? |
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TheBrainintheJar said: The 'power levels' don't really exist (Is there a chart that displays Saitama's power? Goku's power? Superman's power?) and how can you mix them? It's like a fight between characters from Diablo II and characters from Skyrim. I get it that 'people enjoy it' but why? TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: Why treat these fictional characters as 'real'? I never treat them so. Sure, it might be fun but it's like people who fill their heads with pointless facts about a world that doesn't exist. It doesn't matter at the end. You can trivialize many, many things as "not mattering" in the end because "what matters", particularly in matters of entertainment, depends on personality and taste. The actual answer to your question can take many forms, some of which I've already explained. Use of analysis, logic, and problem-solving faculties are enjoyable for many people, and this is one such way to exercise those skills. It might not be fun to you, but that hardly makes it "pointless" or "worthless", at least not any more than playing a sport, video game, etc. inb4 we revert back to TheBrainintheJar said: But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. But what is real life? What is real value? What is real meaning? Since you can not measure them physically, as they only exist in people's heads, then how could these things possibly matter? Anime is real, as you can see it and hear it. Existence is a convenient make-believe of the mind. Things are not meaningful. Why would a fictional plot matter? The relationships of fictional characters? The characters themselves? These are the rhetorical questions. |
CkanSep 24, 2016 3:14 AM
TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: You're dancing around the question. Why is what's real important in this context? Or perhaps you're implying you're a doctor, and thus real-world limits are uniquely relevant to you? That still doesn't answer why it should be important to everyone else, though. I pointed out how it can be important to those who are interested in the physical body. The 'power levels' don't really exist (Is there a chart that displays Saitama's power? Goku's power? Superman's power?) and how can you mix them? It's like a fight between characters from Diablo II and characters from Skyrim. I get it that 'people enjoy it' but why? As Ckan pointed out, I've already explained why. The burden is not on me to explain why why fictional match-ups can be important because I've already done so; rather, the burden is on you to explain why "what is real" is inherently more important than what "is not real", since that is the basis for your argument against the importance of fictional match-ups. Unfortunately, and as Ckan closed with, any attempt by you to do so would end up being hypocritical: In your first post which I objected to, you claimed that some "not real" things are important. Even if you caveat that it is still less important than "what is real" to prevent hypocrisy, your stance becomes nonsensical. |
TripleSRankSep 24, 2016 2:08 PM
TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: I pointed out how it can be important to those who are interested in the physical body. The 'power levels' don't really exist (Is there a chart that displays Saitama's power? Goku's power? Superman's power?) and how can you mix them? It's like a fight between characters from Diablo II and characters from Skyrim. I get it that 'people enjoy it' but why? As Ckan pointed out, I've already explained why. The burden is not on me to explain why why fictional match-ups can be important because I've already done so; rather, the burden is on you to explain why "what is real" is inherently more important than what "is not real", since that is the basis for your argument against the importance of fictional match-ups. Unfortunately, and as Ckan closed with, any attempt by you to do so would end up being hypocritical: In your first post which I objected to, you claimed that some "not real" things are important. Even if you caveat that it is still less important than "what is real" to prevent hypocrisy, your stance becomes nonsensical. What is not real doesn't matter since it doesn't exist, it doesn't affect reality. Note I'm talking about things that 'don't exist', and not things that have a decent potential to exist. You did not understand what I meant by 'not real'. The physical qualities don't exist. The characters, as symbols, exist. Example: The symbol of the sun on Japan's flag is real, the sun in that flag isn't. It is a subjective expression of the sun. 'Who can beat who?' is a discussion about physical traits, not symbolic or philosophical ones. How strong Goku is, is a physical trait. It doesn't tell you anything about what he is as a symbol, which is what all fiction is. Ckan said: TheBrainintheJar said: The 'power levels' don't really exist (Is there a chart that displays Saitama's power? Goku's power? Superman's power?) and how can you mix them? It's like a fight between characters from Diablo II and characters from Skyrim. I get it that 'people enjoy it' but why? TripleSRank said: You can trivialize many, many things as "not mattering" in the end because "what matters", particularly in matters of entertainment, depends on personality and taste. The actual answer to your question can take many forms, some of which I've already explained. Use of analysis, logic, and problem-solving faculties are enjoyable for many people, and this is one such way to exercise those skills. It might not be fun to you, but that hardly makes it "pointless" or "worthless", at least not any more than playing a sport, video game, etc. inb4 we revert back to TheBrainintheJar said: But these powers are imaginary things in imaginary characters. These aren't actual fighters whose skills you can study by watching. A fighter is real, he practices and develops style. A fictional character has whatever style the author decides. But what is real life? What is real value? What is real meaning? Since you can not measure them physically, as they only exist in people's heads, then how could these things possibly matter? Anime is real, as you can see it and hear it. Existence is a convenient make-believe of the mind. Things are not meaningful. Why would a fictional plot matter? The relationships of fictional characters? The characters themselves? These are the rhetorical questions. Stories matter because they're expression of human thought and by studying them, we study the human mind/condition/experience. What makes them important isn't the REAL-factor, but the fact a human mind came up with them. It's the symbolic meaning of it. Is 'who can beat who' a question of symbols and philosophy? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: TripleSRank said: As Ckan pointed out, I've already explained why. The burden is not on me to explain why why fictional match-ups can be important because I've already done so; rather, the burden is on you to explain why "what is real" is inherently more important than what "is not real", since that is the basis for your argument against the importance of fictional match-ups. Unfortunately, and as Ckan closed with, any attempt by you to do so would end up being hypocritical: In your first post which I objected to, you claimed that some "not real" things are important. Even if you caveat that it is still less important than "what is real" to prevent hypocrisy, your stance becomes nonsensical. What is not real doesn't matter since it doesn't exist, it doesn't affect reality. Note I'm talking about things that 'don't exist', and not things that have a decent potential to exist. You did not understand what I meant by 'not real'. The physical qualities don't exist. The characters, as symbols, exist. Example: The symbol of the sun on Japan's flag is real, the sun in that flag isn't. It is a subjective expression of the sun. 'Who can beat who?' is a discussion about physical traits, not symbolic or philosophical ones. How strong Goku is, is a physical trait. It doesn't tell you anything about what he is as a symbol, which is what all fiction is. You still aren't answering the pertinent question, your burden in the argument, why "what is real" is more important than "what isn't real". You say, "What is not real doesn't matter since it doesn't exist, it doesn't affect reality", but this is merely repeating your argument, not justifying it. Justify why something must directly exist to be important. There is absolutely no reason for me or anyone else to accept this argument if you refuse to back it up with logical reasoning. And indeed, your argument continues to contradict itself. A symbol is something that does not exist in reality. There is no sun on the flag of Japan; it is a red circle. We merely attach meaning to that red circle-- that is, we make something that does not exist into something that "does". We connect the non-existance of the sun to the red circle, and we attach ideas to the sun. The red circle does not mean anything in itself; the sun does not mean anything in itself. It is us, our non-reality, that makes the red circle, the sun, important. This is where your argument falls flat. You fail to recognize that it is not the sun you are supposed to see on the flag of Japan, but the ideas attached to the sun. Those ideas do not exist in the sense you demand; they are not "real". How does the idea of a man punching through a mountain exist any less than the idea that capitalism is good or bad? Is it not simply that you specifically care about one more than the other? Certainly enough, the idea of fictional characters fighting and fictional powers interacting affects reality just as much as the idea of capitalism being good or bad can: They both affect the behavior of people. |
TripleSRankSep 24, 2016 11:56 PM
Z-Dante said: From long drawn out fights. Lots of shouting and "We're gonna win because we're friends." I don't know man.Let me ask you this : What in a battle shounen is not dumb?? |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
| What they are essentially doing is verbalizing the concept of XP in an RPG. When that starts happening in script, you know you done fucked up. I will never understand how they can write this shit and think it's believable or doesn't smash the 4th wall down with a maul. But then again, this kind of explicit exposition of intricate details about how things works like RPG stats is strangely common in anime and I don't know why. Is it a Japanese thing? Can I just chalk it up to another one of their strange storytelling tropes? |
| Anyone who doesn't hate anime hasn't watched enough anime. - Anonymous |
| i find fun to talk about power levels sometimes though since a few anime already have multiversal omnipotent characters i gotta say its a bit pointless Soul_of_Silver said: This is why I love Gintama most. No random and B.S. poweups. The fights are short and brutal and are based on skill, determination and experience. from what i remember the strengh of the characters were inconsistent, yatos in particular sometimes they can destroy buildings with a parasol an other times they arent able to destroy a wodden sword... an if Gintoki suddenly wants to start talking about silver souls or such then that means the villains is about to get owned even if the villain was winning before, which is no different from a power up |
 |
| As long as your power level is over 9000, it's okay. |
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TripleSRank said: TheBrainintheJar said: What is not real doesn't matter since it doesn't exist, it doesn't affect reality. Note I'm talking about things that 'don't exist', and not things that have a decent potential to exist. You did not understand what I meant by 'not real'. The physical qualities don't exist. The characters, as symbols, exist. Example: The symbol of the sun on Japan's flag is real, the sun in that flag isn't. It is a subjective expression of the sun. 'Who can beat who?' is a discussion about physical traits, not symbolic or philosophical ones. How strong Goku is, is a physical trait. It doesn't tell you anything about what he is as a symbol, which is what all fiction is. You still aren't answering the pertinent question, your burden in the argument, why "what is real" is more important than "what isn't real". You say, "What is not real doesn't matter since it doesn't exist, it doesn't affect reality", but this is merely repeating your argument, not justifying it. Justify why something must directly exist to be important. There is absolutely no reason for me or anyone else to accept this argument if you refuse to back it up with logical reasoning. And indeed, your argument continues to contradict itself. A symbol is something that does not exist in reality. There is no sun on the flag of Japan; it is a red circle. We merely attach meaning to that red circle-- that is, we make something that does not exist into something that "does". We connect the non-existance of the sun to the red circle, and we attach ideas to the sun. The red circle does not mean anything in itself; the sun does not mean anything in itself. It is us, our non-reality, that makes the red circle, the sun, important. This is where your argument falls flat. You fail to recognize that it is not the sun you are supposed to see on the flag of Japan, but the ideas attached to the sun. Those ideas do not exist in the sense you demand; they are not "real". How does the idea of a man punching through a mountain exist any less than the idea that capitalism is good or bad? Is it not simply that you specifically care about one more than the other? Certainly enough, the idea of fictional characters fighting and fictional powers interacting affects reality just as much as the idea of capitalism being good or bad can: They both affect the behavior of people. What I said WAS an argument. You just didn't explain why my argument isn't enough, except the fact you're not convinced by it. The sun on Japan's flag isn't real. It's a red circle on a white background. Every anime character isn't a human being but a collection of moving pixels. But they have symbolic meaning, they're subjective expression of a topic - of humans, of the sun. You haven't addressed the 'measuring physical abilities' part. You keep talking about real/not real, but half of my argument is about how measuring the physical traits of a non-existent object is pointless. Why do you not address this? A man punching through a mountain is meaningful symbolically - what it says about a character. Maybe it's pleasing aesthetically. However, it doesn't tell you anything about the PHYSICAL abilities of this character since they don't exist. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: A man punching through a mountain is meaningful symbolically - what it says about a character. Maybe it's pleasing aesthetically. However, it doesn't tell you anything about the PHYSICAL abilities of this character since they don't exist. It tells you that that person is physically strong enough to blow up mountains? You're not making any sense. All I see are repetitive arguments. |
 |
| Prob because humans love hierarchy? Regardless of how dumb it may be in context. |
MortalMelancholySep 25, 2016 3:11 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| I loved the way the original Dragonball had Goku training and it actually felt he was progressing steadily. |
 |
MasterHavik said: OPM is not a shounen, its seinen.......Before I head out to the library. I wanted to talk about some thing that always bothers me when I am looking to talk about shouen anime that I like. No matter what the show is...outside maybe One Punch Man. Every fandom has to make some stupid power level chart. I find them dumb since the writers and director will decide whoever wins decided by the plot. So what is the point of a power level chart if someone like Gon became a hunter via getting knock the fuck out by some bleach reject. I wish the people behind these things will just lay out strengths and weaknesses for all their characters and stick to them. Superhero comics do this....and it works well for the most part...unless your name is Superman or Batman...and sometimes Spiderman. But it's better than some power chart still. Anyway what are your thoughts? |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
Shoegum said: the reason why HXH are different from other shounen, is the concept of their power are well created and you can say the author did a good research to make their power unique and explainable.I don't really see the problem with it. Sure, it's dumb, but that's what shounen fans do - they like to compare power levels and jack off to imaginary fights in their head. And it doesn't really harm anyone or give the community a bad image. Hunter x Hunter is rather interesting because Togashi manages to set out a clear hierachy of power levels, and characters don't tend to win for the mere sake of progressing the plot. They win by using strategy or increasing their power level via training. The power levels in Hunter x Hunter aren't just hypothetical like other series, Togashi actually implements them into the show. |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
| Hunter x Hunter provides some interesting mechanics on characterizing power levels. Gon is actually a powerful character with very, very great potential. Besides Netero has clearly stated his criteria for choosing hunters (which was not limited to power level), and Gon clearly fits his standards. |
A retard is trying to prove his point, thanks. |
Tenshi_Shura said: TheBrainintheJar said: A man punching through a mountain is meaningful symbolically - what it says about a character. Maybe it's pleasing aesthetically. However, it doesn't tell you anything about the PHYSICAL abilities of this character since they don't exist. It tells you that that person is physically strong enough to blow up mountains? You're not making any sense. All I see are repetitive arguments. But strength is a physical trait, and so what if he can blow up mountains? He can only do that because the author says so. What does it mean? That's my question. I don't care how skilled a character is. I don't care what they can do since it's easy to write a character who does everything. I want to know how it affects the personality of the character, their relationship and worldviews. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
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