| Before I head out to the library. I wanted to talk about some thing that always bothers me when I am looking to talk about shouen anime that I like. No matter what the show is...outside maybe One Punch Man. Every fandom has to make some stupid power level chart. I find them dumb since the writers and director will decide whoever wins decided by the plot. So what is the point of a power level chart if someone like Gon became a hunter via getting knock the fuck out by some bleach reject. I wish the people behind these things will just lay out strengths and weaknesses for all their characters and stick to them. Superhero comics do this....and it works well for the most part...unless your name is Superman or Batman...and sometimes Spiderman. But it's better than some power chart still. Anyway what are your thoughts? |
MasterHavikSep 18, 2016 3:42 PM
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
Shoegum said: Now only if he could say healthy HxH could take over shit. :P I don't really see the problem with it. Sure, it's dumb, but that's what shounen fans do - they like to compare power levels and jack off to imaginary fights in their head. And it doesn't really harm anyone or give the community a bad image. Hunter x Hunter is rather interesting because Togashi manages to set out a clear hierachy of power levels, and characters don't tend to win for the mere sake of progressing the plot. They win by using strategy or increasing their power level via training. The power levels in Hunter x Hunter aren't just hypothetical like other series, Togashi actually implements them into the show. Anyway it ignores me as the same as," Who is best gurl?!" because I find it destroys any meaningful discussion you'll get when you wanna talk about a show you like. But HxH is interesting and I been loving it on toonami. First arc was dope and the way he writes things is fucking awesome so refreshing. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
MasterHavik said: Shoegum said: Now only if he could say healthy HxH could take over shit. :P I don't really see the problem with it. Sure, it's dumb, but that's what shounen fans do - they like to compare power levels and jack off to imaginary fights in their head. And it doesn't really harm anyone or give the community a bad image. Hunter x Hunter is rather interesting because Togashi manages to set out a clear hierachy of power levels, and characters don't tend to win for the mere sake of progressing the plot. They win by using strategy or increasing their power level via training. The power levels in Hunter x Hunter aren't just hypothetical like other series, Togashi actually implements them into the show. Anyway it ignores me as the same as," Who is best gurl?!" because I find it destroys any meaningful discussion you'll get when you wanna talk about a show you like. But HxH is interesting and I been loving it on toonami. First arc was dope and the way he writes things is fucking awesome so refreshing. Oh man, HxH has been awesome on toonami! But I do have to disagree with you on the part of power level chart. I find it kinda interesting as to who would win in a fight, kinda like the videos ScrewAttack! puts out on youtube. Sure, in the anime/manga the fight has already been decided waaaaaaaay before we actually watch/read it, but that doesn't mean it isn't interesting to think about who would win in a fight. |
| Usually the fandom doesn't have to make a power level chart there's one included. One Piece has bounties, Naruto should have had ninja ranks but they stopped being relevant when the mc didn't follow them, Bleach only had like 2 relevant ranks but they were too broad to count but there was that spirit pressure thing as well, Dragonball had literal power levels, Fairy Tail has mage rankings and a stats list in the manga, Nanatsu no Taizai had a stats list in the manga, Yu Yu Hakusho had demon classes, One Punch Man had hero ranks (although because Saitama did bad in the written entrance test he was stuck in an out of place rank). Really almost any variation of popular shounen series there's some form of power levels often in a ranking format built in to the series. Comparing it to superheroes though is just broken, excluding those obvious examples of superman and batman pretty much any other hero can just get replaced through convenience "Oh by the way we happened to have a clone and/or another person with the exact same abilities" or an apprentice who suddenly takes their place and name. Basically despite having weaknesses they're heavily expendable and replaceable. Unlike say the main characters in most shounen series. Off topic a bit, you should really spell check your titles. |
GamerDLMSep 18, 2016 1:07 PM
| Super hero media has power levels also but it's that they don't employ a common battle system like in battle shonen. |
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GamerDLM said: Black Goku has the same abilities as Goku, Menma is basically an alternate version of Naruto, Edolas Erza has similar abilities to the normal Erza, Shougo Amakusa knows Hiten Mitsurugi like Kenshin and can match him attack for attack. Battle shonen protagonists can have dopplegangers too and characters with similar or the same abilities.pretty much any other hero can just get replaced through convenience "Oh by the way we happened to have a clone and/or another person with the exact same abilities" or an apprentice who suddenly takes their place and name. Basically despite having weaknesses they're heavily expendable and replaceable. Unlike say the main characters in most shounen series. DateYutaka said: Manga has op characters as well like Seiya with the God cloth and Goku now is universal level. Adam Warlock isn't that powerful without the soul gem.yes but there are some how are godly powerfuly in comics it unfare to compare o use adem warlock as example but then agin power level aore more consinthat in manga |
DrGeroCreationSep 18, 2016 1:25 PM
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DrGeroCreation said: GamerDLM said: Black Goku has the same abilities as Goku, Menma is basically an alternate version of Naruto, Edolas Erza has similar abilities to the normal Erza, Shougo Amakusa knows Hiten Mitsurugi like Kenshin and can match him attack for attack. Battle shonen protagonists can have dopplegangers too and characters with similar or the same abilities.pretty much any other hero can just get replaced through convenience "Oh by the way we happened to have a clone and/or another person with the exact same abilities" or an apprentice who suddenly takes their place and name. Basically despite having weaknesses they're heavily expendable and replaceable. Unlike say the main characters in most shounen series. But you missed the key factor there, they could never replace the original in terms of story. Superhero series conversely often have several authors, various timelines, and in all are designed to be replaced. Unlike shounen series which tend to have a single author until completion and a single timeline/universe focusing on a specifically stated set of characters. |
| Your power depends on how many friends you have. |
| You mean you hate the fact that anime characters are allowed to grow stronger unlike western super heroes who stay the same power level throughout their series? |
GamerDLM said: There are core super heroes that can't be permanently replaced. Spiderman, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Iron man, Superman, Batman etc. Peter Parker will always be Spiderman to the mainstream, Bruce Banner will always be the Hulk etc. Doesn't matter how many different versions of characters are introduced.But you missed the key factor there, they could never replace the original in terms of story. Superhero series conversely often have several authors, various timelines, and in all are designed to be replaced. Unlike shounen series which tend to have a single author until completion and a single timeline/universe focusing on a specifically stated set of characters. |
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Paul said: Where do you get the idea that superheroes don't become stronger and just stay the same level?You mean you hate the fact that anime characters are allowed to grow stronger unlike western super heroes who stay the same power level throughout their series? |
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| What is this power level chart? Like, a top # list of which characters people think are the strongest fighters in a show? Outside of the Dragon Ball Z community, I hardly ever see battle shounen fans discussing such lists in big detail. |
Milennin said: Here's one. What is this power level chart? Like, a top # list of which characters people think are the strongest fighters in a show? Outside of the Dragon Ball Z community, I hardly ever see battle shounen fans discussing such lists in big detail. .............................. |
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DrGeroCreation said: Paul said: Where do you get the idea that superheroes don't become stronger and just stay the same level?You mean you hate the fact that anime characters are allowed to grow stronger unlike western super heroes who stay the same power level throughout their series? It was just an exaggeration of what the OP was saying but I do find that superheroes generally try to stay within a certain 'power level' throughout a series, only making big changes from one series to another or the occasional episodes where they get some kind of short term power boost. The only actual consistent power level growths I even remember are from the live action TV series as a lot tend to be origin stories that involve learning their powers. But overall, it might just be because I don't watch superhero shows much anymore. |
DrGeroCreation said: GamerDLM said: There are core super heroes that can't be permanently replaced. Spiderman, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Iron man, Superman, Batman etc. Peter Parker will always be Spiderman to the mainstream, Bruce Banner will always be the Hulk etc. Doesn't matter how many different versions of characters are introduced.But you missed the key factor there, they could never replace the original in terms of story. Superhero series conversely often have several authors, various timelines, and in all are designed to be replaced. Unlike shounen series which tend to have a single author until completion and a single timeline/universe focusing on a specifically stated set of characters. You see you contradicted yourself there, if the person behind the mask so to speak is a different person even if the name is the same it's a different person. Mainstream opinion doesn't matter, Miles Morales is actually Spiderman even if Peter Parker was there first, Batman had several variations including a future timeline batman beyond in which Bruce Wayne was an old man who was replaced as just one example, Superman got replaced by 4 separate people in the 90s after he "died" but got put in like some regeneration chamber. As for different versions OP in this case specifically stated "why can't they lay out strengths and weaknesses for all of their characters and stick to them" but different versions despite being the same exact people can often have very different levels in comic books depending on the author. I mean 1960s superman building an army of himself with the exact same powers to troll his girlfriend is very different than some galaxy destroying levels of op variations. Granted I want to mention I do not follow superheroes at all. These are just a few hearsay examples or ripped right from wiki pages. So I don't plan on making this a long discussion. |
Paul said: So you are only taking about animated here not also live action and comics? Well in Xmen Evolution the teenaged X men had gradual power increases, DCAU Superman from Superman TAS to Justice League Unlimited gradually became strong enough to comfortably take on Darkseid, Hulk in general just gets stronger and stronger the angrier he gets etc. They can progressively get stronger but there is not a lot of focus on seeing the characters train for a lot of episodes like battle shonen.DrGeroCreation said: Where do you get the idea that superheroes don't become stronger and just stay the same level? It was just an exaggeration of what the OP was saying but I do find that superheroes generally try to stay within a certain 'power level' throughout a series, only making big changes from one series to another or the occasional episodes where they get some kind of short term power boost. The only actual consistent power level growths I even remember are from the live action TV series as a lot tend to be origin stories that involve learning their powers. But overall, it might just be because I don't watch superhero shows much anymore. @GamerDLM By your logic battle shonen protagonists can be replaced as well like Boruto has already learned the rasengan, , Kenshin's son is learning Hiten Mitsurugi, Gohan was the hero in the Cell saga . Batman Beyond Bruce Wayne was only replaced because he was super old and the Joker still saw old Bruce as the one true Batman. Superman was never permanently replaced by those other faux Supermen. You are correct about that, different versions of super heroes can have different power levels. |
DrGeroCreationSep 18, 2016 2:04 PM
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| relevant relevant relevant relevant video |
| VS Battles are too complicated for you. Powerlevels gives you a simple look at the hierarchy but there are a ton of variables depending on the series. Comic books are written by multiple writers so they are inconsistent ,so they don't bother with a power system. |
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| Power levels are meant to make some animes feel like videogames. A bit like role play games, mmorpgs, only with some philosophy textbook attached for effect so for example dragonball fights are literally attrition wars where the weak ones go down first so that one guy can deal a final blow in a flashy move because some shinto stuff or whatever dictates teamwork wins. Wuxia fights make just as little sense and are more like dances. Shonen fights are also debates where the one who shouts the argument best wins - the textbook stuff part, be it saving everyone and whatever else about hero motivations. Many mecha animes feel like first person online shooters too: neon genesis evangelion has a city as a map with at least two map markers (nerv HQ and something else) and map limits such as mountains and a sea, along with spawns for units and pick ups such as guns. Cutting the umbilical cable gives a time limit. Occasionally you get mechas with super powers, like the AT Field, which is bullshit because it makes every attack but the melee ones uneffective thus slowing down the action. The textbooks tied to this idea are about some psychological obstacles human means such as guns can do nothing against, and sexual stuff about penetration so that emotions flow out, think of Tarantino's Resevoir Dogs guy who spend the whole movie with a bullet in his stomach and bleeds everywhere crying for help. Ultimatey it's the pilot, and every shonen main lead ever to desire for action to move on and prove his or her worth in using a "sword" or any kind of power and the scale only goes up. |
FondenteSep 18, 2016 2:39 PM
DrGeroCreation said: @GamerDLM By your logic battle shonen protagonists can be replaced as well like Boruto has already learned the rasengan, , Kenshin's son is learning Hiten Mitsurugi, Gohan was the hero in the Cell saga . Batman Beyond Bruce Wayne was only replaced because he was super old and the Joker still saw old Bruce as the one true Batman. Superman was never permanently replaced by those other faux Supermen. You are correct about that, different versions of super heroes can have different power levels. I'll admit that Batman Beyond was probably a bad example. Boruto is more of a new character in the same universe he's not trying to be a second Naruto, he wants to fulfill his own goals. Gohan was already a main character prior to the Cell Saga that was just his center stage moment which he had a few of like say the end of the Buu saga if I remember correctly. So to me the key difference is superheroes tend to have characters/follow-ups who emulate a single person and try to be the new them, while Shounen series tend to have multiple main characters all with their own goals and focus. To further elaborate Naruto might be expendable in the Boruto series because he's already completed his story Superheroes never really complete their own story they just get further in or die and another author picks it up and starts again. At least from the perspective of someone from the outside looking in. |
| @DateYutaka Characters you called there aren't even super heroes like Anti Monitor, Mr. mxyzptlk, one above all. Golden Superman (Superman Prime one million) isn't a base form. Prime One Million is All Star Superman after being in the sun for thousands of years. Dark phoenix isn't Jean's base form. When it comes to animated, battle shonen protagonist tend to be more op than animated superheroes. Goku in Dragon Ball Super is stronger than any animated Superman. @GamerDLM Boruto causes mischief in order to get attention like his father did when he was his age, he learned the rasengan , he looks like his father, he wants to become hokage. He's almost exactly like his father. Gohan basically replaced Goku as the main defender of earth in the Cell saga and if Goku wasn't brought back in the Buu saga that would have been Gohan's main responsibility. Rumor has it that Goku was only brought back because of the fans but Gohan was suppose to become the main protagonist of DBZ. They may try to emulate them but they do have their own goals, origins, villains etc. Different versions do complete their story. Like Dark Knight Returns Batman story ended with him giving up being Batman and being the leader of the Batman army in the shadows, DCAU Batman gave up being Batman and became a mentor to Batman Beyond (Terry Mc Guiness) etc. |
DrGeroCreationSep 18, 2016 2:43 PM
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| I really don't like power levels. I despise them. But the pointless discussions about " X vs. Y - who would win" are really boring and at the end of the day it comes down to who you like more. Clarifying how strong someone is compared to someone else puts an end to the endless discussions about which character is stronger. But that is only the case for characters that are part of the same series. Comparing two characters that originate form two different series' is nonsensical imo. I only liked how they were used back in DBZ in order to clarify how much Goku had grown. But nowadays? They are there to show how strong the new enemies are like in Seven Deadly Sins. I like it more when the author makes the characters accomplish something amazing instead of slapping some number that does not have any meaning on them. |
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| o_o /30 characters........................ |
| @DateYutaka You were comparing battle shonen protagonists to super heroes and battle shonen protagonists are a type of superhero, heck Goku is partly based on Superman. I know tokusatsu superheroes are superheroes as well but we aren't talking about them. Goku is an alien not a powerful alien force that can possess people like Phoenix and Parallax. By that logic of they can be compared just because they are alien I guess you can compare Jaco from Dragon Ball Super to Galactus lol. Marvel has op characters too like Odin Force Thor, World War Hulk etc. Golden Superman is not a base. Golden Superman is All Star Superman after living in the Sun for thousands of years. |
DrGeroCreationSep 18, 2016 3:12 PM
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| OP I'm not sure what you're talking about. You mean a list of who someone thinks are the strongest in one series or all shonen put together? if so: Its fine within a series since they're in the same world and go by the same rules. Power ups happen but usually at decent show has a reason why it happens. but with different shows it makes little sense. |
GamerDLM said: Thanks for the heads up. I fixed it. Usually the fandom doesn't have to make a power level chart there's one included. One Piece has bounties, Naruto should have had ninja ranks but they stopped being relevant when the mc didn't follow them, Bleach only had like 2 relevant ranks but they were too broad to count but there was that spirit pressure thing as well, Dragonball had literal power levels, Fairy Tail has mage rankings and a stats list in the manga, Nanatsu no Taizai had a stats list in the manga, Yu Yu Hakusho had demon classes, One Punch Man had hero ranks (although because Saitama did bad in the written entrance test he was stuck in an out of place rank). Really almost any variation of popular shounen series there's some form of power levels often in a ranking format built in to the series. Comparing it to superheroes though is just broken, excluding those obvious examples of superman and batman pretty much any other hero can just get replaced through convenience "Oh by the way we happened to have a clone and/or another person with the exact same abilities" or an apprentice who suddenly takes their place and name. Basically despite having weaknesses they're heavily expendable and replaceable. Unlike say the main characters in most shounen series. Off topic a bit, you should really spell check your titles. Anyway yeah I know some shows make them...and then suddenly either shit on them or forget they exist quickly. I am moreso talking about fans who start throwing pointless numbers at you. I find laying out strengths and weaknesses to be clearer and easier. mattao313 said: No you figure out what I was talking about. I'm moreso talking about fans and their bs fantasy matchups.OP I'm not sure what you're talking about. You mean a list of who someone thinks are the strongest in one series or all shonen put together? if so: Its fine within a series since they're in the same world and go by the same rules. Power ups happen but usually at decent show has a reason why it happens. but with different shows it makes little sense. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
| Well I don't really see anything wrong with it. It's fun to compare things so why not? It shows that people are passionate about it and I think they should do whatever they wish. It can also make some really cool imagination stuff go wild for a "vs" series or "who would win". |
| It may not be dumb It may be you've watched too much. Shounen tends to have clearer enemy Seinen blend them even more sometimes it's not clear or it does not matter. The alternative way to watch shounen as a grown up is to appreciate other stuff, rather than the strength and win/loss/feint. Check the voice/ arts/ animation, plot design compared to other works, funny dialogues or meaning words, etc. |
| If anime fans can have waifu wars and shipping wars then there is no big deal in power level ranking. Anime fans are always comparing, contrasting and fighting over stuff so comparing power levels is no big deal. @DateYutaka LOL how can you compare Namor to Superman? Silver Surfer compared to Superman is a far better comparison. As I said before there are op characters in Marvel too. The Celestials, Galactus, Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, the Living Tribunal are all above gods like the Asguardians (Odin etc.) Marvel has a reality warper like mr. myzptl called Impossible man. Silver Surfer, Thor, Hulk can give Superman a run for his money plus Marvel actually has their own imitation of Superman called Sentry. Having manga adaptions or starting off in manga doesn't make them battle shonen protagonists. |
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bottle said: And maybe this is why the most recent shounen shows I like a lot don't do all this bullshit. (Hunter x Hunter and One Punch Man).It may not be dumb It may be you've watched too much. Shounen tends to have clearer enemy Seinen blend them even more sometimes it's not clear or it does not matter. The alternative way to watch shounen as a grown up is to appreciate other stuff, rather than the strength and win/loss/feint. Check the voice/ arts/ animation, plot design compared to other works, funny dialogues or meaning words, etc. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
| I'm gonna wait for the 4th Teenchi Muyo OVA for the true OPness of power level. |
 Kickstarter for Rokujouma is fully funded. Good work everyone. Lets wait for the result of our hard work together. |
NeoAnkara said: Every time I watch tenchi I get great characters and writing.....something most people in the anime business forget exist.I'm gonna wait for the 4th Teenchi Muyo OVA for the true OPness of power level. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
MasterHavik said: And maybe this is why the most recent shounen shows I like a lot don't do all this bullshit. (Hunter x Hunter and One Punch Man). HxH has a clear power system and OPM has Disaster Levels for the monsters and ranks for the heroes. The VS battles you complain about take out all the plot and character induced stupidity and gives a good discussion about who will win, you wouldn't last a minute in a discussion. |
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ichii_1 said: I know they have that but the writers for both those shows and manga actually stick to their guns and don't give in to the fanboys. Also having disaster levels is fine as having letter ranks for missions in Naruto.MasterHavik said: And maybe this is why the most recent shounen shows I like a lot don't do all this bullshit. (Hunter x Hunter and One Punch Man). HxH has a clear power system and OPM has Disaster Levels for the monsters and ranks for the heroes. The VS battles you complain about take out all the plot and character induced stupidity and gives a good discussion about who will win, you wouldn't last a minute in a discussion. I don't wanna be in those discussions since they suck. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
| I don't see anything wrong with talking about which characters from different series would win, it's fun to think about sometimes. If you're asking why people who talk about power level charts are immature/toxic etc. it's the internet most fandoms are. I think trying to assign strict power levels is boring, especially with how ridiculous power ups get. Who would win Goku, Saitama, or anti-spiral? Not really a meaningful discussion, but talking about strengths and weaknesses is cool, Killua's lightning, speed, and reflexes vs Medusa with her vector arrows and plates, see that has abilities that can be compared and played off each other. |
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merryfistmas said: Yeah and I feel shows that attach numbers to power levels make it dumb since they'll do whatever they want. I'm happy everyone in Seven deadly sins is strong.I don't see anything wrong with talking about which characters from different series would win, it's fun to think about sometimes. If you're asking why people who talk about power level charts are immature/toxic etc. it's the internet most fandoms are. I think trying to assign strict power levels is boring, especially with how ridiculous power ups get. Who would win Goku, Saitama, or anti-spiral? Not really a meaningful discussion, but talking about strengths and weaknesses is cool, Killua's lightning, speed, and reflexes vs Medusa with her vector arrows and plates, see that has abilities that can be compared and played off each other. |
| I haven't updated in years but now I have changed that. I'll be free soon. |
| I think the more powerful the characters in question are, the more boring and potentially even annoying the conversations become. Personally speaking, when talking about matchups outside a specific series, in terms of pure force I start to lose interest somewhere after a nuclear-esque level but before a moon-busting-esque level. If both characters can destroy entire continents with a single blow then I don't generally care to talk about it outside the context of the specific series since the fictional construct of "power" becomes more important than tactics, strategy, etc.. Thus something like Saitama vs. Anti-Spiral (as @merryfistmas mentioned) wouldn't be a very interesting conversation to me either, whereas something like Crocodile vs. Gaara would be more interesting since the powers are a bit less ridiculous in terms of sheer magnitude. The best match ups tend to be between characters with specific skills, strengths, and weaknesses, all of which can factor into a more thoughtful and entertaining analysis/discussion. |
TripleSRankSep 19, 2016 12:23 AM
| Well people have invented terms like "SMvsFL" to explain away stuff they can't otherwise explain but I'm sure the authors themselves still try to preserve some consistency in power levels |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| All 'skills' in a story are meaningless. Whoever wins the fight isn't based on skill, since the characters aren't actually fighting. It's not even two pieces of digital data fighting. The person who wins in a fictional fight is the person the creators choose that wins. They need to make that victory meaningful. How does it affect the plot? The relationship between the characters? The characters themselves? These are the interesting questions. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: All 'skills' in a story are meaningless. Whoever wins the fight isn't based on skill, since the characters aren't actually fighting. It's not even two pieces of digital data fighting. The person who wins in a fictional fight is the person the creators choose that wins. They need to make that victory meaningful. How does it affect the plot? The relationship between the characters? The characters themselves? These are the interesting questions. You didn't necessarily say anything untrue, but it seems like you're missing the appeal of theoretical match-ups. For some, imagining how different sets of powers would clash can be just as interesting as imagining how a certain set of powers would affect "everyday life" if they existed in the real world. In other words, character match-ups aren't really about the story. It's a thought experiment. |
| "I want to get stronger" or at least an illusion of it is what young boys usually fantasize with... I think it's just that you grew up that you find it dumb. |
| I always make one, so i can think what's the author up to. Wether i have to serious to watch it or not. Power level inconsistency flawed anime, and you'll never serious thinking about that anime later, and more like watching your MC fight his fodder, and waiting it ends. It's worse than normal nakama power, trust me. |
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