| It is largely agreed that rape is the cheapest way of generating drama and making the audience despise a villain. In some cases it is a handled well and in some not, like all narrative tools. For example, SAO has been highly criticized for using rape as the go-to method for villains. I would argue that the Nasuverse has the same problem. No, Nasuverse has it even worse. There are many ways to threaten a character, but in the Nasuverse, rape is always used when the character threatened is female. It's hard to think of a female character who isn't raped, or threatened with rape at some point in any of the works I've read. For the record, the series I'm specifically referring to are Tsukihime (vn), Fate/stay night (vn and UBW anime), and Kara no Kyoukai (anime), with some references to spin offs such as Fate/zero. Let's start at the beginning. Naturally, in Tsukihime, Shiki shows he's going crazy by raping and/or threatening to rape his harem. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Not to mention, the villain in Far Side went evil out of desire for the girl of the route. This happens to be the motive of about half of the major villains in Nasuverse. It gets tiring after awhile. Sadly, this continues into Fate/Stay Night. I wouldn't have much of a problem with this if it was only one or two of these instances... but after the nth time I can't help but groan, "again?" Not to mention, the problem continues in Kara no Kyoukai. Why do you think this is used so much in this particular franchise, and in others like it? Is it because of so called "purity"? Is it just because it is an easy way of generating hate towards a villain? It personally annoys me when used to this extent, and I find it the biggest flaw of the Nasuverse, but the only series it really ruined for me was Tsukihime. I still enjoyed Fate/ and KnK on their merits. |
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| [size=270]Don't we all love rape ? |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| do you asking logic on hentai scane? |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| FSN fanboys be like "but FSN is not a porn game adaptation" |
| I wonder where this misconception comes from, that what MCs do and think is always the message that the author wants to convey. |
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| The rape scenes are there to portray Shiki's inverted impulse or whatever it was called. |
 All credit goes to Sacred. |
| Rape happens, but the way it's used here in this "nasuverse" (I know nothing about it, so I might be missing some context here) is honestly pretty laughable and slightly fetishsized. I don't mind rape in media, sine it's something that sick fucks actually do, but it should be portrayed as it really is: terrifying, and disturbing. Maybe, and this is a stretch, if a character has some idealized fantasy of rape, perhaps then you can use rape as it's portrayed here. As for using rape as a device to make a "villainous" character, I feel that it's fine as long as it's implemented well and not used constantly. |
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| Came here expecting porn game adaptation jokes, so I wasn't expecting OP to actually back up his claims with examples. It does seem an overused trope indeed. |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
FireEmblemIke24 said: The rape scenes are there to portray Shiki's inverted impulse or whatever it was called. no they are there to be edgy and because it is a porn game |
JonasTheJay said: FSN fanboys be like "but FSN is not a porn game adaptation" The interesting thing is, almost none of these are framed in an erotic way (except the Tsukihime examples). It's usually just threats the villain makes, over in a few sentences, or mostly off-screen. When it is on screen-- the Kara no Kyoukai examples-- it's not shown the way fan service usually is. I believe most of these examples are meant to invoke feelings of anger instead of titillation. omfgplzstop said: actually i regret my comment still laughing at calling fate/zero a spinoff ignore me tho your thread is ok Isn't it a spin off? ;-) Grey-Zone said: I wonder where this misconception comes from, that what MCs do and think is always the message that the author wants to convey. Where did I say anything about what Nasu meant to portray? I only pointed out that his works tend to have a lot of rape. FireEmblemIke24 said: The rape scenes are there to portray Shiki's inverted impulse or whatever it was called. Yes, but why rape? That is a choice made by the writer. He could have shown his inverted impulse or whatever by attacking them in a nonsexual manner. Well, the Tsukihime examples are a bit of an oddity, as they are probably meant as fanservice. hoopla123 said: does it trigger u op? The overuse of cheap narrative devices triggers me. |
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| Maybe you should stop playing bad games. |
| Are you implying it's a PORN GAME? You sick bastard! |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
omfgplzstop said: It's bad for it's anal sex scene dialoguesmayukachan said: Maybe you should stop playing bad games. Maybe you should stop calling games you never played bad. ur triggerin me |
omfgplzstop said: Kezone said: Isn't it a spin off? ;-) Yes, but why rape? That is a choice made by the writer. He could have shown his inverted impulse or whatever by attacking them in a nonsexual manner. Well, the Tsukihime examples are a bit of an oddity, as they are probably meant as fanservice. He does attack them in a nonsexual manner, what are you talking about? And nah, Zero isn't a spinoff. It's a direct prequel, and Typemoon and Nitroplus teamed up to create it. Hmm, yeah, he does both. I guess I was just overwhelmed by the times he doesn't. It's been a while since I've read Tsukihime, and my memory is far from perfect. He did still attack them in a sexual manner as well, and most of the ones that weren't, if I remember correctly, were still framed that way. I was joking about Zero, I know it's an official prequel~ Didn't go into it because the only instances of (arguably) gratuitous rape in there that I can think of off the top of my head are the Gil->Saber and Matou stuff, which are also in Stay Night, and that the anime framed Kariya strangling Aoi in a disturbing way. And I was tired of grabbing screenshots |
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Kezone said: Grey-Zone said: I wonder where this misconception comes from, that what MCs do and think is always the message that the author wants to convey. Where did I say anything about what Nasu meant to portray? I only pointed out that his works tend to have a lot of rape. Don't mind it. It was just a preventive post, so that a certain discussion wouldn't be started here. As for on-topic: There aren't many other authors who would dare to write about such a topic so openly. So it wouldn't be exaggerated to say that it's almost a trademark for the nasu-verse... but it seems it's an unwanted trademark. At the moment it seems like Nasu wants to completely distance himself from any kind of mention about anything sexual, at least when it comes to the protagonist and their romance, something which ufotable seemed to have taken a little bit too much into heart. The result are the jokes you see about the KnK and F/sn adaptions romance being so focused on being "safe for work", that it becomes hard to say if it's actually romance or just "friendship". |
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Grey-Zone said: As for on-topic: There aren't many other authors who would dare to write about such a topic so openly. So it wouldn't be exaggerated to say that it's almost a trademark for the nasu-verse... but it seems it's an unwanted trademark. At the moment it seems like Nasu wants to completely distance himself from any kind of mention about anything sexual, at least when it comes to the protagonist and their romance, something which ufotable seemed to have taken a little bit too much into heart. The result are the jokes you see about the KnK and F/sn adaptions romance being so focused on being "safe for work", that it becomes hard to say if it's actually romance or just "friendship". Can't believe Rin and Shirou didn't even kiss :-/ I honestly can't wait to see the new Tsukihime. I wonder how recognizable it'll be. |
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| Good thread. I agree with Tsukihime. This is one of the reasons why I put the VN on-hold for almost a month. It has pretty much the most severe case of this you called "abundance." You also forgot to include the one from Arc route: Still like the VN though for its merits. Though I would like to say that the rape theme (if you can call it that way) makes the foundation of some characters. Now, I don't have any idea how rape can severely affect your way of life, but I think Nasuverse handles "violated" characters with some respect to a certain level. Nasuverse GENERAL SPOILER Everything else, as OP said, has a degree of shock value which is personally just not up to my taste. I also heard it's still there in Kagetsu Tohya (Tsukihime sequel), where there is a choice for Shiki to |
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WarlockAppa said: Though I would like to say that the rape theme (if you can call it that way) makes the foundation of some characters. Now, I don't have any idea how rape can severely affect your way of life, but I think Nasuverse handles "violated" characters with some respect to a certain level. Nasuverse GENERAL SPOILER I agree with this to a point. When I first read F/SN, I thought that Sakura was handled decently well for a rape victim, and wasn't that annoyed. My problem is that all three of them have basically the same story. One character from each of the three works I considered has the same basic backstory, which involves a ton of rape. That's three for three. My problem isn't the existance of rape in the narative, but the abundance of it. I do agree that the way the story portrays the negative effect it had on them is better then one would expect, but three times? |
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hoopla123 said: lmfaodoes it trigger u op? |
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Kezone said: My problem isn't the existance of rape in the narative, but the abundance of it. I do agree that the way the story portrays the negative effect it had on them is better then one would expect, but three times? Yes the abundance really is a problem. I still don't know what Nasu wants to show with his interpretation of rape other than... he can write about it? But I heard that he personally doesn't want his works (the VNs at least) to have any sexual content and was forced to do it for it to sell. So, having rape themes could possibly be an easy way for him to tell a story without sacrificing erotic content. Because, you know, sex sells? |
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| This may be why Tsukihime is getting a remake. |
| Its just one of those shock value tropes that I can't stand. Though it always succeeds with gaining my sympathy for the victim. |
My Queens  |
Kezone said: as soon as i read "saliva" i was reminded of this... you only used fate right? so what's the use of saying "verse" as if it's in everything? i mean it could be, but you only picked one franchise... oh and this: Evildragon16 said: [size=270]Don't we all love rape ? |
TomDayNov 16, 2015 9:11 PM
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TomDay said: you only used fate right? so what's the use of saying "verse" as if it's in everything? i mean it could be, but you only picked one franchise... I used Fate (mostly stay night, a bit of zero), Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai. That's a good chunk of the franchise. I wouldn't generalize an entire verse based on one work. |
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sle91 said: Nasuverse is a setting for Kinoko Nasu's works, the most important of which are Tsukihime, Fate/Stay Night and Kara no Kyoukai. It's a classic "urban fantasy" setting, with vampires, mages and people with unusual powers lurking in the corners of modern world.Whats this Nasuverse? 2 out of 3 of these works started out as eroge visual novels, that's the reason rape isn't taboo in them. OP argues it's overused there. hoopla123 said: Obviously not, she won't be able to write it otherwise. does it trigger u op? (arrgh, why do people always have avatar of the gender opposite their own? Do I have to put a anime girl on mine?) omfgplzstop said: Exactly. And whenever Shiki rapes somebody in Tsukihime, it leads to a bad end. Sometimes it even makes sense.FlatEight said: Rape happens, but the way it's used here in this "nasuverse" (I know nothing about it, so I might be missing some context here) is honestly pretty laughable and slightly fetishsized. I don't mind rape in media, sine it's something that sick fucks actually do, but it should be portrayed as it really is: terrifying, and disturbing. Maybe, and this is a stretch, if a character has some idealized fantasy of rape, perhaps then you can use rape as it's portrayed here. As for using rape as a device to make a "villainous" character, I feel that it's fine as long as it's implemented well and not used constantly. It's portrayed exactly like that. Terrifying and disturbing. WarlockAppa said: I agree with Tsukihime. This is one of the reasons why I put the VN on-hold for almost a month. It has pretty much the most severe case of this you called "abundance." You also forgot to include the one from Arc route: Still like the VN though for its merits. Risara said: By lying back and not resisting as Ciel does H stuff to him? That was Ciel's route, right?Yeah, I really felt rape was unnecesary in Tsukihime, like when Shiki tries to save Arcueid with a worn out body but Ciel stops him, he threatened to rape Ciel if she doesn't allow him to save Arcueid. I mean nigga you can't even move how you gonna rape a combat expert like Ciel lol. |
Irrelative said: This may be why Tsukihime is getting a remake. Wonder when we will have a Tsukihime anime. |
Irrelative said: This may be why Tsukihime is getting a remake. tsukihime anime never existed u heathen |
| Game Of Thrones did a great job in handling rape in its first season: it didn't glamorize/fetishize it in any way,managed to actually move away from it and not turn it into a "sole achievement" for the female character by which she is always remembered because of it as the victim (*coughBerserk) and even turned it into a stepping stone for her future development. More stories should follow that example if they want to tackle such a tricky subject... |
amateur said: Well, none of Nasuverse's characters are remembered for being raped, I'd say. Even "the violated".Game Of Thrones did a great job in handling rape in its first season: it didn't glamorize/fetishize it in any way,managed to actually move away from it and not turn it into a "sole achievement" for the female character by which she is always remembered because of it as the victim (*coughBerserk) and even turned it into a stepping stone for her future development. More stories should follow that example if they want to tackle such a tricky subject... |
hoopla123 said: mayukachan said: It's bad for it's anal sex scene dialogues Every single Yaoi show u watch has anal sex. Or fujobait shows that obviously follow the path towards the production Yaoi doujin hush now,don't expose their strawman OT:I think OP if you are well acquainted with Nasuverse,you should know that all the protagonists in this Universe are generally fucked up in the head and you have to sort of evaluate how they view the world around them rather than try to synchronize and sympathize with them(or maybe self insert for some people)[Its more of a case study to highlight the inhumanity].I think its more in line with how magi or people dealing with any sort of magecraft have a generally (disgusting) outlook towards life and rape,more often than not being a shock factor,is something that magi would gladly indulge in if it benefits them or proceed their "knowledge" .Despite,women being on the receiving end of it,on the flip side,all the women characters are mostly stronger and have arguably better fleshed out personalities than their male counterparts. Thats why we need Witch of the Holy Night translated because we need more Aoko Aozaki,plus it doesn't have any sexual content.Also,Tsuki anime might probably be in the next 30 years lol |
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RioOba said: I haveto agree. And comedic torture won't fit the mood.Well it's better than seeing cruel torture. |
flannan said: RioOba said: I haveto agree. And comedic torture won't fit the mood.Well it's better than seeing cruel torture. "Yeah i'm gonna torture and tear one of your eyes out (for no real reason), but i'm gonna let you go afterwards for no real reason" Just another reason why Mirai Nikki is one of the best anime series ever... |
| I've read the first the first 6(?) chapters of Mahoyo and no-ones been raped/threatened with rape yet. I think Nasu is learning. But srsly though Shiki's obsession with rape is beyond meme and I wouldn't have it any other way. Also the LN for KnK had even more rape/forced prostition but it was removed from Movie 6 and replaced with Shiki and Azaka fighting on a bed in pajamas. Best executive decision muira ever made imo. |
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| > implying that rape in narrative is a problem and should not be written about > implying that the author intends you to agree with the decisions of the protagonists, despite Tsukihime protagonist being intentionally written in a way as to make you afraid and uncomfortable. > implying that any of Nasuverse protagonists are meant to be "like the reader" or are made for a reader to relate to. Sexual themes have always bee intertwined with both supernatural and criminal fiction. And Nasuverse is mix of both. Being surprised that nasuverse contains those elements is just as stupid as being surprised dark fantasy fiction like The Black Company or A Song of Ice and Fire contains lots of sex(both consensual and non-consensual) Irrelative said: This may be why Tsukihime is getting a remake. Neutering Shiki's fucked up personality and psychopath tendencies would be the WORST thing to do with Tsukihime. Shiki being a rapist and a murderer is part of his character and psyche. Murder gives him sexual satisfaction and excites him sexually. ITs the defining part of his character. Taking that way would light-novel-ize him even more than even ufo did with Shirou. |
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| Many of those series are dark like GATE or Btooom, it's not really an issue. |
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Hoppy said: Many of those series are dark like GATE or Btooom, it's not really an issue. GATE ?What part of GATE was dark ? |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
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