| Every work of art wants to form an emotional reaction in the viewer/listener. After all, why bother dedicating your precious time to something if it doesn't make you feel anything? Of course, some people are more emotional than others. What matters is the execution. If it's done in an obvious/repetitive way, it may become annoying to those who are less emotional or who expect something that stimulates your thought process rather than your emotions. So a certain amount of subtlety is often needed. With that being said - yes, it affects me. For example, I find melodramaric anime that tries too hard to make you cry ridiculous. Yes, they will always succeed with more emotional viewers. But that's not because they are masterful - it's just because we as humans are easy to impress. My score is based on the fact how realistic are the emotions shown in the situation. If the anime didn't manage to create a proper build-up, I will always "punish" it with a lower score. |
| I enjoy the feels if it's well executed, even if it's too much i don't care. I rarely came across an anime that want you to cry so hard it fail but they do exist. |
 「 To other people, I might not have changed at all, but I feel like I was able to change... 」 |
| Yes thats why 3gatsu is bad anime. The show being melodramatic and forced. I think the 2nd season is the example. The bullying arc is too stretch and feels like underwhelming as whole |
 |
| "emotionally manipulative" doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't literally any anime, to some extent, appeal to your emotions? action shounen, wow very cool people fighting each other etc moe anime, wow kawaii very cute drama anime, wow so sad so meaningful horror anime, aaaah scary very scary etc etc That being said, I do see what you can mean when it might seem...apparent that an anime's trying to dig at some heart-strings. I more often find it very obvious in melodramas (and more often than I not i tend not to really vibe with what it's trying to do), and I think whether you think it's a good thing or bad thing when you realize it is up to you to subjectively decide on a case-by-case basis. chriskor022 said: Yes thats why 3gatsu is bad anime. The show being melodramatic and forced. I think the 2nd season is the example. The bullying arc is too stretch and feels like underwhelming as whole I've only watched the 1st season but I actually thought the exact opposite. To me, the narrative is more given as it is with relatively minimal emotional provocation. more often you seem to just be given the situation, and the audience seems to be allowed to think for themselves about what they're watching. That's what I thought |
 |
| No, but generally when the main focus of the anime is to make you sad (most of the popular misery porn series like YLIA, Clannad, etc.), it's almost never executed well. |
  |
| The job of most art is to manipulate or at least evoke certain emotions, so no the presence of this does not bother me unless it is poorly executed. It's especially bothersome if the show is trying to make me feel something that it has not yet earned. For example, if the show focuses on relationship drama right out the gate before I even know what the characters are individually, it usually loses me. |
| Yes it can, sometimes it downgrades it, I would appreciate it if you gave an example. But at the same time, I don't think its a bad thing. If its presence influences our scoring, than it deserves to. We allow it to influence us, so we might as well embrace it. |
 |
| @Kyonui, bit of a misnomer in the OP. Every word, frame, drawn line, music note, interaction, characterization, story beat etc. is a carefully thought out and executed attempt to elicit specific responses. Manipulating is accurate but also can imply malice. But the bigger point is that it's not "if implemented" it's always implemented. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| i-it's not like you made me emotional baka anime... yyou just provoked me into it |
 |
| I’ve never really understood the whole “emotional manipulation” thing. If an anime can make me care about characters then isn’t that a good thing? I honestly couldn’t give a fuck for a random character that gets killed or goes through some awful shit. If I give a shit about a character to the point of crying then in my eyes the writers have won, they’ve written a character that I care about. |
 |
Kyonui said: Well it speaks to a different point, right? Because if you understand what i'm saying about what stories do, the question changes to 'Does a story being a story degrade itself?' and becomes an oxymoron. Lunilah said: Sorry about that. Slight error in my part. My bad. @Kyonui, bit of a misnomer in the OP. Every word, frame, drawn line, music note, interaction, characterization, story beat etc. is a carefully thought out and executed attempt to elicit specific responses. Manipulating is accurate but also can imply malice. But the bigger point is that it's not "if implemented" it's always implemented. To elaborate, @deg is the only one to mention the suspension of disbelief and that's precisely where i think your true question is. But the suspension of disbelief in and of itself IS degradation for whoever feels it, yet everyone has a different threshold, but also in a logical sense there are certain points where most people will come to the same conclusion (intersubjective) that something is over the top and recognize them being taken out of the story. So i think what you want to ask at the end of the day, how and where do you draw the line? |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| I can never understand these kinds of arguments. Entertainment is designed to provoke a reaction out of the audience. If a show doesn't provoke the kind of reaction it intended it fails as a piece of media. Shows will always try to manipulate people into feeling a certain way, if they are successful then that means it is a good show. |
Kyonui said: "Emotionally manipulative" "Melodramatic". Does these terms in general, if implemented, downgrade an anime? Regardless of its' type of execution, can its' sole presence influence your way of scoring an anime? Well no. The thing is that every piece of entertainment is Manipulative. It's just that ppl only coin these terms when they have Failed. Edgy is akso an example of that. The Term itself is not a criticism nor bad, but ppl use it only when it fails. |
| If you notice the strings being pulled, or use of cheap tricks, it gives it an artificial feel that lessens the emotional impact. That's usually what makes something melodramatic, and yes hurts the work in question. |
| EDIT: I misunderstood that OP meant that it was about emotional manipulation among characters, and I feel deeply ashamed and remorse for it In fact, every story is a manipulation of emotions and simply words and pictures. Sound, everything is catering to you to feel something for something that doesn't even exist. Because... it doesn't exist, because it's all fictional, it can be said that it's simply the writer's desire you to feel something, and it just reflects on the true strength of humans - to create life. Not just physically, but through words too. It made me think that character struggles, their sadness is all just to make a story more "deep", so I guess that's what your thread about. I tend to get attached to characters super easily, and I always think, that a good writer can create people. Thank you @Pullman for saving my sorry butt. |
XerozenMay 24, 2020 7:34 AM
| I would like someone to explain me how a writer is supposed to evoke emotions in people without it being manipulative. It's manipulative by definition. So it's incredibly stupid to get hung up on that. What matters is whether it is executed well, whether it works for you or not - not the fact that it's actively trying to make you feel something. That is its job. @Xerozen You might want to read the OP again, because that's not quite what this thread is about :> |
AlcoholicideMay 24, 2020 5:33 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: I hope i explained it well to OP in post #12 and #16, but he hasn't responded to the latter. Also i'm hoping he remakes the thread, if he continues to be curious about it.I would like someone to explain me how a writer is supposed to evoke emotions in people without it being manipulative. It's manipulative by definition. So it's incredibly stupid to get hung up on that. What matters is whether it is executed well, whether it works for you or not - not the fact that it's actively trying to make you feel something. That is its job. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| I would say yes. That's why it's kinda hard for me to be attached to the story nowadays... |
 |
mikerjw said: Perfect wording, I've nothing to add but one point.First of all, just because a piece of media is emotionally exaggerated, or melodramatic, doesn't mean it's emotionally manipulative. I'd say that when melodrama gets in the way of serviceable characterization, then it becomes manipulative, like "cry-bait," "scream-bait," etc., etc. If a show is emotionally manipulative, then of course it can influence how I score it. A lot of shows people call emotionally manipulative, however, are melodramas that just happened to have bad characterization. A show can only be emotionally manipulative if its done on purpose. It can't be cry-bait on accident. Recently I'm quite fond of heavy shoujo melodrama, along the lines of Oniisama e..., Maria-sama ga Miteru or Nana. I feel that this type of show is very emotionally manipulative, but that this is actually my main expectation towards them. For some reason, this feels different from emotional manipulation in shows like Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso or Violet Evergarden, which are cry-bait and at best mediocre. Not all of mikerjw's criteria work for this. All 5 are manipulative on purpose and melodramatic to no avail. Yet, three succeed and two fail. My best explanation is that the two bad examples overdo, while the former three let the melodrama breathe. Something like that, I haven't better words atm. |
 |
inim said: mikerjw said: Perfect wording, I've nothing to add but one point.First of all, just because a piece of media is emotionally exaggerated, or melodramatic, doesn't mean it's emotionally manipulative. I'd say that when melodrama gets in the way of serviceable characterization, then it becomes manipulative, like "cry-bait," "scream-bait," etc., etc. If a show is emotionally manipulative, then of course it can influence how I score it. A lot of shows people call emotionally manipulative, however, are melodramas that just happened to have bad characterization. A show can only be emotionally manipulative if its done on purpose. It can't be cry-bait on accident. Recently I'm quite fond of heavy shoujo melodrama, along the lines of Oniisama e..., Maria-sama ga Miteru or Nana. I feel that this type of show is very emotionally manipulative, but that this is actually my main expectation towards them. For some reason, this feels different from emotional manipulation in shows like Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso or Violet Evergarden, which are cry-bait and at best mediocre. Not all of mikerjw's criteria work for this. All 5 are manipulative on purpose and melodramatic to no avail. Yet, three succeed and two fail. My best explanation is that the two bad examples overdo, while the former three let the melodrama breathe. Something like that, I haven't better words atm. Violet Evergarden and YLIA are too popular to be called failures. Their manipulation tactics might not have worked on you (or me, for that matter) but they apparently struck a chord with a lot of people as they're always mentioned whenever the topic of 'sad anime that will make you cry' comes up. |
 |
Kyonui said: I think it's a mistake to take that back, it's true that people are equal and that we all have our own takes but that doesn't mean they're correct. You were going further down the train of thought to a way more intricate and nuanced understanding, but you doubled down.With remaining faithful to my original post, I'll gladly take back what I said in post #15. As all users of this site are deemed equal, I can also put my own take out there. The question specifically asks if these terms are implemented. But how do we know if it's been done already? In conclusion, the state of being manipulated is always psychological. It's not that one is manipulative by definition; it's the fact that we as human beings are fueled by emotion, could we make such a statement. In short words, it's a purely subjective experience. Earlier, I have taken back my apology. What about melodrama? Does every aspect of every story qualifies as melodramatic or exaggerated? I don't think so. However, the presence of it does not degrade nor elevate the story. Maybe the characters are just put that way; it's only up to you, and you only, to judge if it's good or bad. Unfortunately, execution-wise, there's no unified rule if the execution is either good or bad when it comes to feelings. Could it be if one relates to it, or not relate to it, it's still a subjective verdict. In the end, I would like to thank someone who wrote this. zieek said: We allow it to influence us, so we might as well embrace it. Small nit pick, but a statement isn't a conclusion, your argument came after when it should have came before. That being said it's actually a good argument to me. The problem with the word manipulative is the stigma it has colloquially, what's the first thing people think of when they hear the words emotionally manipulative? But yes it's always psychological, by design stories have the express purpose of eliciting emotions from people. Due to the fact that we are emotional beings and we have our individual experiences is precisely why stories by design are 'emotionally manipulative', if we weren't emotional stories wouldn't be trying to evoke such a thing. The market is people who have emotions, every single piece of a story is designed to explore them, especially since they're made by people. This is where the subjective or inter-subjective elements come in; there is a unifying principle or foundation if you will, and that's logic, it has to make sense. Whether or not it's good or bad is up to the individual. You can't eat your cake and then still have it too. The only choice in which we allow a story to influence us is the decision to read or watch it, we cannot turn off our emotions. If we could it would defeat your arguments earlier. We're not psychopaths. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| No, if anything, it enhances the anime. Clannad Afterstory and Gurren Lagann would not be the anime they are without it. |
 |
epidemia78 said: Of course, strictly speaking for myself and my own shit taste here. It's a minority opinion (but a rather strong minority), and I've gotten more flames for my negative statements about YLIA than about any other opinion of mine. Some people love it to pieces indeed.inim said: Violet Evergarden and YLIA are too popular to be called failures. Their manipulation tactics might not have worked on you [...] but [...] always mentioned whenever the topic of 'sad anime that will make you cry' comes up. For some reason, this feels different from emotional manipulation in shows like Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso or Violet Evergarden, which are cry-bait and at best mediocre. My problem with both YLIA and VE is that they try so hard that I find it impossible to see the story. All I see is the heavy machinery used to create sad emotions, to the point I get angry about how cheaply and manipulative they try. There is no love in me for YLIA, it's a corny piece of *bleeeep*. mikerjw said: Let's try to express it, not easy. First, your overall approach to characterization of melodrama resonates well with me, and is shared. When I look at my 3 positive examples for "good melodrama", I see some commonalities. They are all (a) shoujo demographics, (b) long (between 39-47 episodes each, counting all seasons), and (c) are over-the-top melodramatic.inim said: those other shows you listed have exaggerations, their respective plots and characterization techniques might have been more to support their manipulative moments, rather than the shows themselves being one big emotional manipulation.Oniisama e..., Maria-sama ga Miteru or Nana [...are..] emotionally manipulative, but that this is actually my main expectation towards them. This would support your assumption that characterization matters. None of the three is story driven, like YLIA. It's pure character driven, slow development. Really dramatic and over the top shit happens, drugs, bullying, suicide, betrayal, you name any cheesy soap opera cliché and it's in one of the three. Yet, the event itself is not really relevant, but how the characters (plural!) and the relational web they form react to them and change. Thus new theorem: Melodrama and plot driven story telling do not go well together. It thrives with character driven, slow paced narrative styles. YLIA and VE both are mainly story driven, so that would fit. |
| |
| Though it doesn't really affect my reception of anime in general, I don't like drama slices inserted, mostly because 90% of those are just forced, especially the dramas occuring in the "Slice of Life" genre. However I would say that I really like that kind of drama which was adopted from Gangster/Mafia movies – those kinds of non-melodramatic drama (makes no sense, but you get the point) are sick AF (like in Cowboy Bebop). |
 |
| isnt it a good thing if a piece of media is able to emotionally invest you? even if they use have to use those tactics, if they do it right and make you cry or feel sad then its done its job of making you care about to story/characters. you wouldnt cry over something you dont care about about would you? you have to be passionate about it. crying is good bro, releases those toxins and stress, y'know? |
Seijatachiiii said: Making people cry with story telling is 1000s of years old, e.g. greek tragedy. The basic tricks of the trade are well understood, but how skillful an author can use them is art. And unfortunately there are a lot of bad authors who try to write sad stuff but make me cringe about how badly it is written. In that case, at best tears of laughter are the result, not sadness and emotions for the characters. isnt it a good thing if a piece of media is able to emotionally invest you? |
| |
| I love stories that can make me cry but when they are trying SO hard to squeeze out tears without giving you a reason to even like the characters...THAT'S when they fail. Grave of the Fireflies is one such title for me. Loads of people praise it...but I didn't cry at all. I don't know who these kids are! Besides you know they're gonna die before the movie even starts! Most of the infamous anime tearjerkers DID get me to cry though. |
  |
| Melodramatic anime can be pulled off well if it commits to being that way.As long as it's not reaching so hard to make you emotional that it pulls a muscle in the process.I think one example of this done wrong is Magical Girl Site, where you have a character who suicidal, bullied, physically abused at school and at home, gets a pet who died, gets raped, and kills people in the span of the first episode. |
"Get your tentacles off me or ill make calamari out of your manhood" -Mirai Nikki Dub |
Chiibi said: GotF is a special case because it's a true story based on a famous autobiographic novel, any school kid in Japan knows how it ends. Reminds me of a true anecdote where I was accused to "spoiler" the end of Rose of Versailles when I said the French Revolution happens ... I mean, it's not that most people wouldn't know how Marie-Antoinette and her Royal husband ended.Grave of the Fireflies is one such title for me. Loads of people praise it...but I didn't cry at all. I don't know who these kids are! Besides you know they're gonna die before the movie even starts! |
| |
| I believe it all largely depends on the series. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is dramatic and over the top on purpose, it's just a part of its style. When the emotional state of characters extends beyond the normal range of the series, especially in a way that is jarring or obvious, it can really ruin a show for me and make me dislike it. It can feel like the writers are trying too hard to squeeze something out of you. Sure the plot moves forward, but there's a such thing as trying to hard. It all has to fit. An example of going to far in my opinion is the end of the third season of My Hero Academia. |
TALIDIN_May 25, 2020 3:45 PM
| Yep, I love Jay Naylor. https://www.patreon.com/jaynaylor/posts  |
| it depends on how it is executed, I think. it worked most of the time in magus bride, and absolutely failed in violet evergarden. it depends on how serious the drama is, how relatable the characters are, how well it fits the general tone of the show and just how backed up is it by the animation. (character acting) |
| 馬鹿げた倫理 全部ガラクタで |
| For me its like when i get emotional from anime it will get a high score for sure because it means i really connected to this anime(especially ones that made me cry). |
| Don't fuck up the present, it's connected to your future! |
Daniel_Naumov said: If you're going to call me factually wrong and claim i'm spreading misinformation, i would appreciate if you would provide a proper retort with an argument about what i'm apparently wrong about. I'm not sure what your point is with the rest of your post talking about how creators are actually intending to do harm to viewers with their stories, i think that's absolutely absurd.Lunilah said: @Kyonui, bit of a misnomer in the OP. Every word, frame, drawn line, music note, interaction, characterization, story beat etc. is a carefully thought out and executed attempt to elicit specific responses. Manipulating is accurate but also can imply malice. But the bigger point is that it's not "if implemented" it's always implemented. This is factually wrong and we would all appreciate it you sir did not spread this misinformation so boldly. In art, since time immemorial, there is a dialogue and there one-sided argument. The later implies you are SUPPOSED to be reacting the way the "authors" want the audience to. Manipulative is a perfect word for such series - as they, indeed, malicious in their conception - as they aim for nothing else but to manipulate the viewer without giving them anything in return. No dialogue. No moral. The viewer cries over the generic re-use of storytelling tools, long ago mastered by our ancestors. The viewer keeps crying... and then just stops. It starts with crying, it ends with crying. No progression. No broadening the horizons. They, the viewers, were deliberately manipulated by the authors (who conveniently failed to provide their story with ANYTHING but emotional manipulation), and are left with nothing more than what they had before being manipulated. Arguably, there is even less to them, as they have been violated by those wanna-be "art creators". |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Daniel_Naumov said: I'm not about to read a 9 paragraph 5400 word post to attempt to figure out the point you're trying to justify that, to be frank, sounds like a conspiracy theory.Lunilah said: If you're going to call me factually wrong and claim i'm spreading misinformation, i would appreciate if you would provide a proper retort with an argument about what i'm apparently wrong about. I'm not sure what your point is with the rest of your post talking about how creators are actually intending to do harm to viewers with their stories, i think that's absolutely absurd. It is, naturally, absurd. Alas, it is also the actual unintended consequence of meaningless, lowly mental and emotional manipulation several disgraced authors (https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1813032 welcome) employ in order to ensure the hollow "success" of their series. Edit: Daniel_Naumov said: If you even read my posts i said the word manipulation has a lot of bad connotations to it. We are emotional beings and we are not able to turn off emotions as we are not robots or psychopaths who don't feel emotions. By design, storytelling takes advantage of the fact that everything we interpret has an emotional response to it.As for the "argumentation" - you claim that emotional manipulation is employed ALWAYS. This is a slander, to the actual self-respecting authors. As such, your claim is false, and you should evaluate how willing you are to close your eyes to the "malice" behind the emotional manipulation. You're also still not telling me why i'm wrong with any argument, you're just saying my claim is false. |
LunilahMay 25, 2020 2:22 PM
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| Not at all, If it's badly executed or out of place it just makes me wanna cringe or just ignore it. If it is a drama anime and it fails to immerse you in a scene yeah, either because the characters are not relatable or the story telling isn't the greatest. But some scenes are subjective, nobody feels the same way, so something that might come off as overdramatic to me could hit someone in a different way depending on what respective scene represents to that someone. |
 |
Daniel_Naumov said: No, i don't deny the humans to be able to measure objectivity, even in introspection.Lunilah said: I'm not about to read a 9 paragraph 5400 word post to attempt to figure out the point you're trying to justify that, to be frank, sounds like a conspiracy theory. Edit: If you even read my posts i said the word manipulation has a lot of bad connotations to it. We are emotional beings and we are not able to turn off emotions as we are not robots or psychopaths who don't feel emotions. By design, storytelling takes advantage of the fact that everything we interpret has an emotional response to it. You're also still not telling me why i'm wrong with any argument, you're just saying my claim is false. A shame. You deny humans the capacity of objective, accurate reflective thought. I have seen such cases, as such I am disappointed, but unfazed. There is nothing to do but let the public decide, which of our claims are more deserving of broad recognition. And for their own sake, I hope they choose wisely. I don't care about the public's opinion, and only 1 of us has provided an argument. What i care about is learning and understanding, but all you seem to want to do is be on your high horse dismissing everything i say because you're so far above the rest of us instead of having an actual conversation. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Daniel_Naumov said: This is an extremely childish and, unexpectedly, disappointing approach. Why? Judge for yourself: There is N. N decided to run for a president. N was elected and inaugurated. Does this make N not a failure? Hmmmmmmmmmmm... A hard nut to crack indeed. But do you best, by all means. Look no further than the pop music industry if you want another example of successful commercial products that still technically qualify as 'art' even though it lacks integrity. |
|
More topics from this board
» ☀️ Anime Summer 2025 Male & Female Characters TournamentISeeLifePeople - Oct 5 |
48 |
by Supersonic_Pain
»»
3 minutes ago |
|
» 🥚 Best Husbando of the Past Eras TournamentSupersonic_Pain - Yesterday |
22 |
by ChouunShiryuu
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
» Waifu War V5 (Anniversary-Edition!) (Round 1) ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Minkalex - Sep 28 |
313 |
by UberBat
»»
9 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Do OPs and EDs contribute to your rating of an anime?W3TFT - 4 hours ago |
19 |
by Stanis150
»»
20 minutes ago |
|
» About Horror Anime...KMIR - Oct 8 |
31 |
by Zarutaku
»»
31 minutes ago |