| I have several friends from the Middle East and have become acquainted with several more people they know. I would agree with the idea that the younger generation in the Middle East is getting really tired of religious extremism and sectarian tensions tearing the region apart. At this point, people have seen decades of increasingly extreme terrorist organizations carve a bloody path through the Middle East and are getting sick of somewhere in the Middle East always being at war. People are more aware of the dangers of the kind of ideology that terrorists promote and have seen the consequences of that ideology. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next ten years or so we end up seeing a large push for secular reform in the Middle East. I think that is truly what's going to win the war on terror. |
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| It's not surprising really. In the past the mid east also was pretty westernised and more secular. https://www.businessinsider.com/iran-before-the-revolution-in-photos-2015-4 https://allthatsinteresting.com/1960s-afghanistan https://allthatsinteresting.com/1960s-egypt |
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| if anything, this is europe reformation all over again. religion that used to maintain stability now become source of conflict. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| These people, especially the youth, have known too much, I reckon. You also got the Internet contributing on shaping their views as well with so many information out there. |
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| Look at how bad religion is over in many middle eastern countries, the young would certainly being sick and tired of religion having a tyrannical grip on their lives. |
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| Good, that'll likely decrease the chances of explosions. |
| Westernization and the access to the internet has led to many young people searching the webs for Youtubers who are Atheist and do not believe in a religion, this exposition to a new point of view, which is supported by various evidences has led to them converting. |
| this has been happening for quite a while now. There have been tons of rebellions in the middle east. Revolution have rarely been peaceful. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
deg said: More than 25,000 people were interviewed for the survey - for BBC News Arabic by the Arab Barometer This is why i can't take those survey news seriously, how does 25,000 people represent 423,000,000 of Arab world lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world |
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deg said: BenRyan said: This is why i can't take those survey news seriously, how does 25,000 people represent 423,000,000 of Arab world lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world the usual reliable sample size is always at least 1000 people anyway How can a poll of only 1,004 Americans represent 260 million people with only a 3 percent margin of error? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/howcan-a-poll-of-only-100/ How many countries though? |
| Good news hopefully, as long as its not replaced with something worse like with the Soviet Union. |
QPR said: It's interesting that the religious fruit loop in Turkey lost an election in his home town by about 10k votes, he demanded it be rerun and he lost by hundreds of thousands in a rerun. Maybe people have finally had enough of this stupidity? About the story, it's done by the BBC so they have to paint all non whites in a positive light so basically they are like the leftie Breibart so take everything from there with a pinch of salt. They didn't do the study, they just reported it. The one that did the study was https://www.arabbarometer.org/survey-data/methodology/ |
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| That is total nonsense atheist cope. Religious people, especially Muslims, have far more children than non-religious people. |
| Lol, nice try. It seems people are also fast to correlate Islam with Arabs when there are Arab christians too. I believe there are christians in Egypt for example, and ever heard of Lebanon (my country) who has a 40% christian population and a christian president. Second of all, 25,000 do not represent over 400,000,000 arabs. Third of all, Religion and cultural values are here to stay. Keep your western values, liberalism, and atheism to yourself. Thank you. |
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Ibuki_22 said: Lol, nice try. It seems people are also fast to correlate Islam with Arabs when there are Arab christians too. I believe there are christians in Egypt for example, and ever heard of Lebanon (my country) who has a 40% christian population and a christian president. Second of all, 25,000 do not represent over 400,000,000 arabs. Third of all, Religion and cultural values are here to stay. Keep your western values, liberalism, and atheism to yourself. Thank you. Being not so religious doesn't inherently mean atheism. A person can be theist while not having a religion. A person can be non religious and virtuous or religious and non virtuous. It's not a Western import when people choose these things on their own using their own observations and deductions |
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traed said: Ibuki_22 said: Lol, nice try. It seems people are also fast to correlate Islam with Arabs when there are Arab christians too. I believe there are christians in Egypt for example, and ever heard of Lebanon (my country) who has a 40% christian population and a christian president. Second of all, 25,000 do not represent over 400,000,000 arabs. Third of all, Religion and cultural values are here to stay. Keep your western values, liberalism, and atheism to yourself. Thank you. Being not so religious doesn't inherently mean atheism. A person can be theist while not having a religion. A person can be non religious and virtuous or religious and non virtuous. It's not a Western import when people choose these things on their own using their own observations and deductions Yes, but we’ll never give up Islam and our christian Arab brothers won’t give up christianity which both provide you with an organized framework centralized in idea of monotheism (in case of Abrahamic Religion). In my opinion, you may disagree, but you can say “Oh, I am a theist”, but where do you Go beyond that statement? How do you approach your relation with God? How do you know of His attributes and words (i.e. what he expects from his believers)? Your purpose of being in the whole context of your creation? These are just a bunch questions out of many (Of course assuming you believe in God since we pre-suppose that one is a “theist”). Religions provide answers for all of those questions and helps bridge the gap between you and the Creator and advises you. The Irreligious phenomenon is “trying” to make its way into the arab world from the west. The trend started in the west as more europeans are becoming more irreligious/not identifying with a religion (check stats yourself in wiki, i know it’s a basic source, but for the lack of better source). Heck 51% of Netherlands is irreligious. This phenomenon has not become prevalent in the Arab World, and hopefully it never becomes. |
Shishou_23Jun 25, 2019 3:47 PM
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deg said: Arabs are increasingly saying they are no longer religious, according to the largest and most in-depth survey undertaken of the Middle East and North Africa. The finding is one of a number on how Arabs feel about a wide range of issues, from women's rights and migration to security and sexuality. More than 25,000 people were interviewed for the survey - for BBC News Arabic by the Arab Barometer research network - across 10 countries and the Palestinian territories between late 2018 and spring 2019. Here are some of the results. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377 this is good imo at least since im irreligious myself or i can accept the spiritual but not reilgious movement more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_but_not_religious Why is it good?... |
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deg said: religion is one of the biggest source of conflict that promotes tribalism "us vs them" and "if you are not with us then you are against us" mentality By this logic, humans should continue wars to this day since Judaism, passing to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Even all religions believe in freedom in faith. We shouldn't us humans advance in knowledge, medicine, technology and science. Even the Big Bang theory is originated from a Catholic priest. I shouldn't slack here. I should go out now and murder any non-Muslim foreigner in my country in the name of Islam. deg said: and it shows since the Arab world is ravaged by wars/conflicts anyway Right, it's not from corruption of a government. It's religion. See how easy is that. deg said: spiritual but not religious movement is a better alternative to those that want to believe in god Do yourself a favor and travel. It's good for your mind. |
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Ibuki_22 said: traed said: Being not so religious doesn't inherently mean atheism. A person can be theist while not having a religion. A person can be non religious and virtuous or religious and non virtuous. It's not a Western import when people choose these things on their own using their own observations and deductions Yes, but we’ll never give up Islam and our christian Arab brothers won’t give up christianity which both provide you with an organized framework centralized in idea of monotheism (in case of Abrahamic Religion). In my opinion, you may disagree, but you can say “Oh, I am a theist”, but where do you Go beyond that statement? How do you approach your relation with God? How do you know of His attributes and words (i.e. what he expects from his believers)? Your purpose of being in the whole context of your creation? These are just a bunch questions out of many (Of course assuming you believe in God since we pre-suppose that one is a “theist”). Religions provide answers for all of those questions and helps bridge the gap between you and the Creator and advises you. The Irreligious phenomenon is “trying” to make its way into the arab world from the west. The trend started in the west as more europeans are becoming more irreligious/not identifying with a religion (check stats yourself in wiki, i know it’s a basic source, but for the lack of better source). Heck 51% of Netherlands is irreligious. This phenomenon has not become prevalent in the Arab World, and hopefully it never becomes. You're not a hive mind because of your ethnicity or religion. You don't think as one but simply individuals following a hierarchy within religious structures to their own varying degrees of unquestioning obedience. Conditions are different in each individual country and socioeconomic classes and religious group and denomination of each group and the thoughts of each individual. Do you seriously think you're all the same to where you alone can speak for "400,000,000" people? That your words mean more than the sample size of over 25,000 of those same people you are trying to speak for? I'd rather answer your questions collectively than individually. Some people just reject organized religion because each person of each major Abrahamic religion (and some non Abrahamic) thinks theirs is the only true one. If everyone is equally sure of themselves there isn't really an objective way to find truth there. Some people look at different religions and find what of each religion they believe could be true. Some use philosophy and deduct things. Some try to connect to their god through meditation and prayer which are refered to as mystics. This is seen with some of the Sufi and with Kabalistic Jews. Religion isn't absolutely necisary for order. We have social standards and legal systems and welfare programs and charities and scientific research and philosophy of ethics. Why claim it started in the west based on current stats? For example South Korea is about 50% non religious and Japan about 63% non religious. Looking at charts you should noticed the correlation between increased quality of education and increased secularism. |
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ArabianLuffy said: Even all religions believe in freedom in faith. It is not really a "freedom in faith" if you are being indoctrinated with these beliefs ever since you were born. Also I'm pretty sure that the above statement is incorrect. Not a fan of the "war on religion" movements either. I know that there are people ready to crucify you for not chanting "There is no God" 5 times a day or having the audacity to show even the slightest distrust of the "holy" atheistic "beliefs". |
149597871Jun 25, 2019 7:07 PM
deg said: im not gonna bother with that so lets just agree to disagree Nope. You have nothing to argue for. You're just looking for a dragon to slay. 149597871 said: It is not really a "freedom in faith" if you are being indoctrinated with these beliefs ever since you were born. Also I'm pretty sure that the above statement is incorrect. As a Muslim myself, I never attacked anyone's faith or whatever they believe in. I have no intention to advance any sort of world view of mine (if I have any). 109 : 6 [You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.] 6 : 108 [And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance.] These messages are clear enough. |
ArabianLuffyJun 25, 2019 7:26 PM
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deg said: i live in a country where islamic terrorism is going on for decades now, and christianity here always influence the governemnt like blocking the passage of the overpopulation measures so there is no separation of church and state, thats the basics behind my stance on religion in general Religions basically always been misused by politicians, higher ups, etc. You can blame Islam all you want, but be sure that any statement you make or anyone will be criticized. No one tolerates misinformation. |
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traed said: Ibuki_22 said: Yes, but we’ll never give up Islam and our christian Arab brothers won’t give up christianity which both provide you with an organized framework centralized in idea of monotheism (in case of Abrahamic Religion). In my opinion, you may disagree, but you can say “Oh, I am a theist”, but where do you Go beyond that statement? How do you approach your relation with God? How do you know of His attributes and words (i.e. what he expects from his believers)? Your purpose of being in the whole context of your creation? These are just a bunch questions out of many (Of course assuming you believe in God since we pre-suppose that one is a “theist”). Religions provide answers for all of those questions and helps bridge the gap between you and the Creator and advises you. The Irreligious phenomenon is “trying” to make its way into the arab world from the west. The trend started in the west as more europeans are becoming more irreligious/not identifying with a religion (check stats yourself in wiki, i know it’s a basic source, but for the lack of better source). Heck 51% of Netherlands is irreligious. This phenomenon has not become prevalent in the Arab World, and hopefully it never becomes. You're not a hive mind because of your ethnicity or religion. You don't think as one but simply individuals following a hierarchy within religious structures to their own varying degrees of unquestioning obedience. Conditions are different in each individual country and socioeconomic classes and religious group and denomination of each group and the thoughts of each individual. Do you seriously think you're all the same to where you alone can speak for "400,000,000" people? That your words mean more than the sample size of over 25,000 of those same people you are trying to speak for? I'd rather answer your questions collectively than individually. Some people just reject organized religion because each person of each major Abrahamic religion (and some non Abrahamic) thinks theirs is the only true one. If everyone is equally sure of themselves there isn't really an objective way to find truth there. Some people look at different religions and find what of each religion they believe could be true. Some use philosophy and deduct things. Some try to connect to their god through meditation and prayer which are refered to as mystics. This is seen with some of the Sufi and with Kabalistic Jews. Religion isn't absolutely necisary for order. We have social standards and legal systems and welfare programs and charities and scientific research and philosophy of ethics. Why claim it started in the west based on current stats? For example South Korea is about 50% non religious and Japan about 63% non religious. Looking at charts you should noticed the correlation between increased quality of education and increased secularism. I do not speak on behalf of all the arabs for sure, but nice try. I am merely refuting OP who is trying to generalize on Arab as turning back on religion. However, It does not take a survey to realize arabs still hold tight to Islam in their home countries. You can see it through simple observation of how Islam is still embedded and relevant (same thing for our christian brothers). That was my point. Of course, people follow the religion to varying degrees, some more pious than others, some more loose than others, but the religion is still there and relevant. Don’t people all call us regressive cause we still hold on to religion and still follow it to point it’s part of the law? Now you’re saying the opposite (that we’re starting to turn our back) to satisfy your argument lol. At least I have grown and lived long enough in the Arab culture. To add to that, I have seen how much membership and support religious organizations get from people. From all of this , I think I have a say in the matter and can say Islam (at least) will stay when I personally see it’s still relevant in our culture and countries. People in Japan and Korea practice folk religion if they do not follow an Abrahamic religion although people like to draw a thin line between traditions and religion, thus saying Japanese follow folk traditions not a religion which makes it blurry. Anyways, we’re talking about the middle east which always seem to be under the attempt to be westernized by the west and their world police that tends to spread its values overseas and market them as the “right thing”, the far east doesn’t do that. Also, I can still similarly say Japan was influenced by the west to a degree especially after WWII when they forced changes into constitution and forced the emperor to denounce his divinity under western pressure to the public which shook the public. Also, I find it funny how you bring up education. I can easily refute that. Have you heard of Golden Age of Islam? The quality of education was so high that Baghdad was the center of science. If someone wanted to pursue education, he had to go to Baghdad. Many scholars and philosophers emerged, but did they turn back on religion (Islam)? No, rather they embraced it and many incorporated it into their studies of philosophy. Education has nothing to do with this. Also, I don’t care if you meditate or use philosophy. I know that if you don’t live by the religion’s organized framework, you will live by an organized “something else” you choose. That’s what I heard academic researcher say once. You won’t escape organization. Everywhere you go, there is an organization or a framework. Your society gives you a framework, the law gives you a framework, why not religion also? Cause it’s from a God you can’t bring yourself to believe in? Cause “dem religions are evil man”? Also as I said, religion helps you bridge the gap between you and God and advise you. The questions I posed can not be answered through simple meditation or philosophy. Can philosophy explain why are we here? why we are rational beings or have rationality or how we have rationality? No it will use rationality to explain that, which is circular. Religion provides you with an objective moral standard since it comes from a higher authority whose word is absolute to the believers at least. A human can not bring a moral objective standard. Liberalism is subjective. Utilitarianism is subjective. Hedonism is subjective. Just some examples. Since we’re all human, why is one moral standard more objective than another human’s moral standard? That can’t be the case, and you can’t say with certainty that one is objectively better than the other. It’s all subjective unless it comes from a higher entity (God) which religion relays to us. That’s what Islam does for example. If you don’t agree with me, it’s fine. May be try to listen to other speakers and researchers who articulate this point better than me cause admittedly I am not a researcher or claim to be an expert myself but I do agree with them. |
Shishou_23Jun 26, 2019 2:21 AM
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ArabianLuffy said: deg said: im not gonna bother with that so lets just agree to disagree Nope. You have nothing to argue for. You're just looking for a dragon to slay. 149597871 said: It is not really a "freedom in faith" if you are being indoctrinated with these beliefs ever since you were born. Also I'm pretty sure that the above statement is incorrect. As a Muslim myself, I never attacked anyone's faith or whatever they believe in. I have no intention to advance any sort of world view of mine (if I have any). 109 : 6 [You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.] 6 : 108 [And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance.] These messages are clear enough. Well, tell that to the thousands victims in the Balkan Peninsula who were executed or much worse by the Ottoman Empire for refusing to change their faith to Islam. Or to the ones burned by the Church for... there are many reasons actually but the one thing in common in going against their beliefs in some way. See, just because it is written in a book doesn't mean that it will be the case practically. Also there are plenty of verses in these holy books that contradict with one another. If killing is a sin and everyone can believe in whatever they want as you said, then why is it okay to execute gay people or the ones who "turn their back" on their religion. In fact the majority of muslim countries have absurd laws mainly due to religious influence. And it's not limited to Islam, we have plenty of examples in mankind's history where a religion or a religious institution gains too much power leading to a negative impact on the society (understatement of the century). |
| It only takes one person's testimony to refute an 25,000 volunteer case study, and vice versa. Religion here has been on the decline since the 20th century. It is a fact that the remnants of religion in the MENA region is only the result of the said region not having any sort of proper renaissance in the modern age. All the revolts were fruitless and chaotic, a revolt for the sake of rebelling, not a ploy to reform. Saudi Arabia is treading on a thin line of calling itself a religious country but acting like a non-religious country. The Gulf has been open for the most part of the 21st century. The problem only arises with concentration of the religious people in one place. The issue always wasn't with Islam, nor Arab culture, it was the environment that cultivated the toxicity of religion that we now call 'extremism'. The majority of the 'extreme muslims' that fill surveys as of the least decade only consist of the common man and his group of friends that serve a plate filled with unadulterated ignorance. They only parrot what they listen from said extreme environments; the problem arises with the lack of sufficiency in education. Not formal education, but leisure. People do not give much thought to what they are told and what the media portrays to them. This can be said to most of the countries in the world, but compared to other similar first world countries, Arab countries have a higher prominence of this. I do not condone this sort of advancement, but I do not call it as such. It is simply a change that can be for good or for the worse. I see no fault in religion that is purely spawned from the frontal cortex of the follower. Islam is one of the few religions that conquer the minds of the intellectuals, simply because it gives no room for the simple to doubt its integrity. |
149597871 said: Well, tell that to the thousands victims in the Balkan Peninsula who were executed or much worse by the Ottoman Empire for refusing to change their faith to Islam. Or to the ones burned by the Church for... there are many reasons actually but the one thing in common in going against their beliefs in some way. Whatever happened to victims of the Balkan Peninsula, what Ottoman Empire did and even the Spanish inquisition, ISIS, Taliban, etc are inconsistent with what the Bible and Quran teach. Just because a bunch of few did something doesn't automatically means to judge Christianity and Islam. If you wanna go by your logic, how about the: The French revolution, not only was the Catholic church in France stripped of its power, but priests were forced to abandon their parishes. Thousands fled the country, or imprisoned or executed. The Gulag Archipelago, the first volume details the origin of the oppressive Soviet system at least in part under Lenin and then it's full fledged implementation under Stalin and the deaths that Solzhenitsyn estimated something approximately 60 million between 1919 AD and 1959 AD. That doesn't count the death toll in the WW2, and Stalin who is an absolute barbaric in every possible way you could imagine was planning to start a 3rd World War. Let's not go any further back to the past. The present, where the Chinese government imprisoned millions of Uyghurs Muslims, closing mosques, not allowing anyone practicing their religion, Islam. 149597871 said: Also there are plenty of verses in these holy books that contradict with one another. If killing is a sin and everyone can believe in whatever they want as you said, then why is it okay to execute gay people or the ones who "turn their back" on their religion. In fact the majority of Muslim countries have absurd laws mainly due to religious influence. And it's not limited to Islam, we have plenty of examples in mankind's history where a religion or a religious institution gains too much power leading to a negative impact on the society (understatement of the century). First, I know nothing of the Bible texts to defend it against contradictory, but you're welcome to test my knowledge of the Quran. Second, whether or not a certain government execute some citizen because of turning from Islam or having other sexual orientation than heterosexuality, you can ask me about my country, Saudi Arabia, but other Arab countries or Muslim countries are not my concern, because I know nothing about their laws, and it should be obvious to you that no Arab/Muslim law represent what Islam is. |
ArabianLuffyJun 26, 2019 5:32 PM
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ArabianLuffy said: 149597871 said: Well, tell that to the thousands victims in the Balkan Peninsula who were executed or much worse by the Ottoman Empire for refusing to change their faith to Islam. Or to the ones burned by the Church for... there are many reasons actually but the one thing in common in going against their beliefs in some way. Whatever happened to victims of the Balkan Peninsula, what Ottoman Empire did and even the Spanish inquisition, ISIS, Taliban, etc are inconsistent with what the Bible and Quran teach. Just because a bunch of few did something doesn't automatically means to judge Christianity and Islam. If you wanna go by your logic, how about the: The French revolution, not only was the Catholic church in France stripped of its power, but priests were forced to abandon their parishes. Thousands fled the country, or imprisoned or executed. The Gulag Archipelago, the first volume details the origin of the oppressive Soviet system at least in part under Lenin and then it's full fledged implementation under Stalin and the deaths that Solzhenitsyn estimated something approximately 60 million between 1919 AD and 1959 AD. That doesn't count the death toll in the WW2, and Stalin who is an absolute barbaric in every possible way you could imagine was planning to start a 3rd World War. Let's not go any further back to the past. The present, where the Chinese government imprisoned millions of Uyghurs Muslims, closing mosques, not allowing anyone practicing their religion, Islam. 149597871 said: Also there are plenty of verses in these holy books that contradict with one another. If killing is a sin and everyone can believe in whatever they want as you said, then why is it okay to execute gay people or the ones who "turn their back" on their religion. In fact the majority of Muslim countries have absurd laws mainly due to religious influence. And it's not limited to Islam, we have plenty of examples in mankind's history where a religion or a religious institution gains too much power leading to a negative impact on the society (understatement of the century). First, I know nothing of the Bible texts to defend it against contradictory, but you're welcome to test my knowledge of the Quran. Second, whether or not a certain government execute some citizen because of turning from Islam or having other sexual orientation than heterosexuality, you can ask me about my country, Saudi Arabia, but other Arab countries or Muslim countries are not my concern, because I know nothing about their laws, and it should be obvious to you that no Arab/Muslim law represent what Islam is. Yes, Saudi Arabia is a good example actually, although there are some other "factors" there than just religion. So I'm asking you. In my opinion it "represents" enough because if the law is created according to the teachings of a certain religion than it is safe to say that you can judge that religion based on those laws and when it comes to Saudi Arabian laws they are a bit unacceptable. Of course there are plenty of other unacceptable things around the world but it surprises me to hear that the aforesaid teachings/laws/religions are as "open-minded" and "liberal" as you describe them to be. And yes, you don't necessarily need religion to do something bad. Two of the examples are a result of communistic ideologies so I don't think there's anything to discuss about that part. The French Revolution however is a bit more complicated in my opinion but getting into detail here would take far too much time. I wouldn't use "a few did something" to describe the actions of the Ottoman Empire either. We are talking about centuries of oppression on an immense scale with the total number of victims extending to millions. The Spanish Inquisition, etc. also has left a significant mark on our history. |
149597871Jun 26, 2019 7:01 PM
ArabianLuffy said: 149597871 said: Well, tell that to the thousands victims in the Balkan Peninsula who were executed or much worse by the Ottoman Empire for refusing to change their faith to Islam. Or to the ones burned by the Church for... there are many reasons actually but the one thing in common in going against their beliefs in some way. Whatever happened to victims of the Balkan Peninsula, what Ottoman Empire did and even the Spanish inquisition, ISIS, Taliban, etc are inconsistent with what the Bible and Quran teach. Just because a bunch of few did something doesn't automatically means to judge Christianity and Islam. If you wanna go by your logic, how about the: The French revolution, not only was the Catholic church in France stripped of its power, but priests were forced to abandon their parishes. Thousands fled the country, or imprisoned or executed. The Gulag Archipelago, the first volume details the origin of the oppressive Soviet system at least in part under Lenin and then it's full fledged implementation under Stalin and the deaths that Solzhenitsyn estimated something approximately 60 million between 1919 AD and 1959 AD. That doesn't count the death toll in the WW2, and Stalin who is an absolute barbaric in every possible way you could imagine was planning to start a 3rd World War. Let's not go any further back to the past. The present, where the Chinese government imprisoned millions of Uyghurs Muslims, closing mosques, not allowing anyone practicing their religion, Islam. 149597871 said: Also there are plenty of verses in these holy books that contradict with one another. If killing is a sin and everyone can believe in whatever they want as you said, then why is it okay to execute gay people or the ones who "turn their back" on their religion. In fact the majority of Muslim countries have absurd laws mainly due to religious influence. And it's not limited to Islam, we have plenty of examples in mankind's history where a religion or a religious institution gains too much power leading to a negative impact on the society (understatement of the century). First, I know nothing of the Bible texts to defend it against contradictory, but you're welcome to test my knowledge of the Quran. Second, whether or not a certain government execute some citizen because of turning from Islam or having other sexual orientation than heterosexuality, you can ask me about my country, Saudi Arabia, but other Arab countries or Muslim countries are not my concern, because I know nothing about their laws, and it should be obvious to you that no Arab/Muslim law represent what Islam is. The Ottoman Empire was near universally recognized as the legitimate Caliphate. The "Ummah" saw them as legitimate and the Ottomans committed numerous genocides and atrocities. |
| Arabs are sick of terrorism, or a strict moral code, and also, many people around the world aren't as religious as the used to be maybe 50 or more years ago, especially younger people. The concept of a "Supreme Being" may be harder to rationalize nowadays. |
gaq_t said: Pxi2 said: The Ottoman Empire was near universally recognized as the legitimate Caliphate. The "Ummah" saw them as legitimate and the Ottomans committed numerous genocides and atrocities. Name 10 prominent Islamic scholars who believe the Ottoman Empire is what you described, forget it, you can't. But, here's a little insight - the Ottoman Empire went through many secular reforms, not Islamic ones : http://faith-matters.org/images/stories/fm-publications/the-tanzimat-final-web.pdf Keep bullshi*ting till someone who knows their stuff calls you out, huh? What an odd standard. Why would I read Islamic scholars when I can just read the basic history? Islamic scholars are fun though. Guides on how to properly beat your wife, debating if Aisha actually 9 years old when the Prophet (PBUH) fucked her, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1843_and_1846_massacres_in_Hakkari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide Of course, we can also just go back to the original Caliphates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion |
Ibuki_22 said: traed said: You're not a hive mind because of your ethnicity or religion. You don't think as one but simply individuals following a hierarchy within religious structures to their own varying degrees of unquestioning obedience. Conditions are different in each individual country and socioeconomic classes and religious group and denomination of each group and the thoughts of each individual. Do you seriously think you're all the same to where you alone can speak for "400,000,000" people? That your words mean more than the sample size of over 25,000 of those same people you are trying to speak for? I'd rather answer your questions collectively than individually. Some people just reject organized religion because each person of each major Abrahamic religion (and some non Abrahamic) thinks theirs is the only true one. If everyone is equally sure of themselves there isn't really an objective way to find truth there. Some people look at different religions and find what of each religion they believe could be true. Some use philosophy and deduct things. Some try to connect to their god through meditation and prayer which are refered to as mystics. This is seen with some of the Sufi and with Kabalistic Jews. Religion isn't absolutely necisary for order. We have social standards and legal systems and welfare programs and charities and scientific research and philosophy of ethics. Why claim it started in the west based on current stats? For example South Korea is about 50% non religious and Japan about 63% non religious. Looking at charts you should noticed the correlation between increased quality of education and increased secularism. I do not speak on behalf of all the arabs for sure, but nice try. I am merely refuting OP who is trying to generalize on Arab as turning back on religion. However, It does not take a survey to realize arabs still hold tight to Islam in their home countries. You can see it through simple observation of how Islam is still embedded and relevant (same thing for our christian brothers). That was my point. Of course, people follow the religion to varying degrees, some more pious than others, some more loose than others, but the religion is still there and relevant. Don’t people all call us regressive cause we still hold on to religion and still follow it to point it’s part of the law? Now you’re saying the opposite (that we’re starting to turn our back) to satisfy your argument lol. At least I have grown and lived long enough in the Arab culture. To add to that, I have seen how much membership and support religious organizations get from people. From all of this , I think I have a say in the matter and can say Islam (at least) will stay when I personally see it’s still relevant in our culture and countries. People in Japan and Korea practice folk religion if they do not follow an Abrahamic religion although people like to draw a thin line between traditions and religion, thus saying Japanese follow folk traditions not a religion which makes it blurry. Anyways, we’re talking about the middle east which always seem to be under the attempt to be westernized by the west and their world police that tends to spread its values overseas and market them as the “right thing”, the far east doesn’t do that. Also, I can still similarly say Japan was influenced by the west to a degree especially after WWII when they forced changes into constitution and forced the emperor to denounce his divinity under western pressure to the public which shook the public. Also, I find it funny how you bring up education. I can easily refute that. Have you heard of Golden Age of Islam? The quality of education was so high that Baghdad was the center of science. If someone wanted to pursue education, he had to go to Baghdad. Many scholars and philosophers emerged, but did they turn back on religion (Islam)? No, rather they embraced it and many incorporated it into their studies of philosophy. Education has nothing to do with this. Also, I don’t care if you meditate or use philosophy. I know that if you don’t live by the religion’s organized framework, you will live by an organized “something else” you choose. That’s what I heard academic researcher say once. You won’t escape organization. Everywhere you go, there is an organization or a framework. Your society gives you a framework, the law gives you a framework, why not religion also? Cause it’s from a God you can’t bring yourself to believe in? Cause “dem religions are evil man”? Also as I said, religion helps you bridge the gap between you and God and advise you. The questions I posed can not be answered through simple meditation or philosophy. Can philosophy explain why are we here? why we are rational beings or have rationality or how we have rationality? No it will use rationality to explain that, which is circular. Religion provides you with an objective moral standard since it comes from a higher authority whose word is absolute to the believers at least. A human can not bring a moral objective standard. Liberalism is subjective. Utilitarianism is subjective. Hedonism is subjective. Just some examples. Since we’re all human, why is one moral standard more objective than another human’s moral standard? That can’t be the case, and you can’t say with certainty that one is objectively better than the other. It’s all subjective unless it comes from a higher entity (God) which religion relays to us. That’s what Islam does for example. If you don’t agree with me, it’s fine. May be try to listen to other speakers and researchers who articulate this point better than me cause admittedly I am not a researcher or claim to be an expert myself but I do agree with them. Again i can't really reply to everything here but in short Law based on religion that depends on what the law is really. It's a matter of if it takes away rights from people of other religions or represses human rights and if it has an actual logical basis that exists outside of that religion. A secular government can have laws loosely based on a religions laws if it backs it up with better reasoning than faith. A person can have religion without organized institutional religion. A person can be spiritual without religion. A person can be religious without being spiritual. State religion is just an attempt by religious instutional bodies to maintain their status of power over communities. The fact they even feel the need to do this shows they are a losing power. What I am saying is that religions change over time and organized religions with their institutions can't forever maintain a hierarchy. They eventually may shift into a non hierarchal structure where every member in a religion is equal not under religious leaders of institutions. This takes away some of the outlet for abuse for religion by taking away some of the influence any individual may have on others. I can't say that organized religion as it is would go away entirely, I merely am predicting trends from current and past trends. |
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gaq_t said: @Pxi2 >universally recognized by the ummah >why would i use islamic scholars. Does this boy read what he says. You followed with 2 strawman, we can talk about those later after you admit you lied about it being universally recognized. Funnily enough, you did nothing to respond to the fact that the ottoman empire was highly secular - moving on to the last link which is also a strawman (as we were talking about the ottomans) - mentioning a revolt (which has happened in almost every empire in history once before, so what do you aim to prove?) Not a genocide as you mentioned above. The Ottoman Caliphate took the status from the Egyptian based Mameluke state. Nobody but a few extremists in the 19th century tried to lay claim to the title of Caliph, not even the almost as powerful Mughal Empire. http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e400 The near-universal recognition of the Ottoman Sultan as Caliph is considered common knowledge. |
It's easy for us westerners to sum all of the middle-east as the Arabs, but really each region can hold very different general beliefs. As different as Germany and Hungary or as different as USA and Canada. I am very close friends with a Catholic Palestinian family, and they argue that their homeland is getting more religious (for obvious reasons). The same seems to be happening in Jordan as well from what I have been told. On the other hand, I could see why Syrians would be losing faith. Just do a little research on the stuff politically moderate Syrians have to deal with. |
Pxi2 said: gaq_t said: Name 10 prominent Islamic scholars who believe the Ottoman Empire is what you described, forget it, you can't. But, here's a little insight - the Ottoman Empire went through many secular reforms, not Islamic ones : http://faith-matters.org/images/stories/fm-publications/the-tanzimat-final-web.pdf Keep bullshi*ting till someone who knows their stuff calls you out, huh? What an odd standard. Why would I read Islamic scholars when I can just read the basic history? Islamic scholars are fun though. Guides on how to properly beat your wife, debating if Aisha actually 9 years old when the Prophet (PBUH) fucked her, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1843_and_1846_massacres_in_Hakkari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide Of course, we can also just go back to the original Caliphates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion I remember seeing a video defending the fact she was 9 by saying it was normal to marry such young girls back then, even in Europe. The mental gymnastics a lot of people will go through to defend their religion is insane. |
traed said: Ibuki_22 said: I do not speak on behalf of all the arabs for sure, but nice try. I am merely refuting OP who is trying to generalize on Arab as turning back on religion. However, It does not take a survey to realize arabs still hold tight to Islam in their home countries. You can see it through simple observation of how Islam is still embedded and relevant (same thing for our christian brothers). That was my point. Of course, people follow the religion to varying degrees, some more pious than others, some more loose than others, but the religion is still there and relevant. Don’t people all call us regressive cause we still hold on to religion and still follow it to point it’s part of the law? Now you’re saying the opposite (that we’re starting to turn our back) to satisfy your argument lol. At least I have grown and lived long enough in the Arab culture. To add to that, I have seen how much membership and support religious organizations get from people. From all of this , I think I have a say in the matter and can say Islam (at least) will stay when I personally see it’s still relevant in our culture and countries. People in Japan and Korea practice folk religion if they do not follow an Abrahamic religion although people like to draw a thin line between traditions and religion, thus saying Japanese follow folk traditions not a religion which makes it blurry. Anyways, we’re talking about the middle east which always seem to be under the attempt to be westernized by the west and their world police that tends to spread its values overseas and market them as the “right thing”, the far east doesn’t do that. Also, I can still similarly say Japan was influenced by the west to a degree especially after WWII when they forced changes into constitution and forced the emperor to denounce his divinity under western pressure to the public which shook the public. Also, I find it funny how you bring up education. I can easily refute that. Have you heard of Golden Age of Islam? The quality of education was so high that Baghdad was the center of science. If someone wanted to pursue education, he had to go to Baghdad. Many scholars and philosophers emerged, but did they turn back on religion (Islam)? No, rather they embraced it and many incorporated it into their studies of philosophy. Education has nothing to do with this. Also, I don’t care if you meditate or use philosophy. I know that if you don’t live by the religion’s organized framework, you will live by an organized “something else” you choose. That’s what I heard academic researcher say once. You won’t escape organization. Everywhere you go, there is an organization or a framework. Your society gives you a framework, the law gives you a framework, why not religion also? Cause it’s from a God you can’t bring yourself to believe in? Cause “dem religions are evil man”? Also as I said, religion helps you bridge the gap between you and God and advise you. The questions I posed can not be answered through simple meditation or philosophy. Can philosophy explain why are we here? why we are rational beings or have rationality or how we have rationality? No it will use rationality to explain that, which is circular. Religion provides you with an objective moral standard since it comes from a higher authority whose word is absolute to the believers at least. A human can not bring a moral objective standard. Liberalism is subjective. Utilitarianism is subjective. Hedonism is subjective. Just some examples. Since we’re all human, why is one moral standard more objective than another human’s moral standard? That can’t be the case, and you can’t say with certainty that one is objectively better than the other. It’s all subjective unless it comes from a higher entity (God) which religion relays to us. That’s what Islam does for example. If you don’t agree with me, it’s fine. May be try to listen to other speakers and researchers who articulate this point better than me cause admittedly I am not a researcher or claim to be an expert myself but I do agree with them. Again i can't really reply to everything here but in short Law based on religion that depends on what the law is really. It's a matter of if it takes away rights from people of other religions or represses human rights and if it has an actual logical basis that exists outside of that religion. A secular government can have laws loosely based on a religions laws if it backs it up with better reasoning than faith. A person can have religion without organized institutional religion. A person can be spiritual without religion. A person can be religious without being spiritual. State religion is just an attempt by religious instutional bodies to maintain their status of power over communities. The fact they even feel the need to do this shows they are a losing power. What I am saying is that religions change over time and organized religions with their institutions can't forever maintain a hierarchy. They eventually may shift into a non hierarchal structure where every member in a religion is equal not under religious leaders of institutions. This takes away some of the outlet for abuse for religion by taking away some of the influence any individual may have on others. I can't say that organized religion as it is would go away entirely, I merely am predicting trends from current and past trends. I did not mention religion-based states or state religion. That’s another topic. Let’s just stick to organized religion. An organized religion may or may not be adopted by the state as its basis for law. What is this better reasoning that government can provide to back up a law that faith can’t give? It’s wrong and punishable to kill an innocent for example? All religions have taught that for thousands of years. You seem to be looking at the organized religion’s influence or presence or effect on a large political scale (state scale) while I am addressing on a personal level if you actually went through my post instead of re-iterating what you said. Also you seem to use the word spiritual loosely even though spirituality in itself is a broad term/concept. |
Shishou_23Jul 1, 2019 2:42 AM
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Pikslap said: Pxi2 said: What an odd standard. Why would I read Islamic scholars when I can just read the basic history? Islamic scholars are fun though. Guides on how to properly beat your wife, debating if Aisha actually 9 years old when the Prophet (PBUH) fucked her, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1843_and_1846_massacres_in_Hakkari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide Of course, we can also just go back to the original Caliphates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion I remember seeing a video defending the fact she was 9 by saying it was normal to marry such young girls back then, even in Europe. The mental gymnastics a lot of people will go through to defend their religion is insane. He's supposed to be a perfect example to live by - kinda why they have the Sunnah, examples from his life that should be followed. |
| Some people here, or should I call them “wiki links warriors”, should learn of a saying “if your house is made of glass, do not throw others with rocks” |
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Pxi2 said: Pikslap said: I remember seeing a video defending the fact she was 9 by saying it was normal to marry such young girls back then, even in Europe. The mental gymnastics a lot of people will go through to defend their religion is insane. He's supposed to be a perfect example to live by - kinda why they have the Sunnah, examples from his life that should be followed. That's not how sunnah works, we apply basic principles - let me explain this to you too. For example, There were times when Muhammed and the other Arabs had nothing to eat but dates for days and days. Where can a principle be derived from this sunnah? To eat whatever you have, even if it's only 1 thing consistently. Basically the principle is that we derive a ruling from an action, and it's commonplace that Muhammed derived an action from a ruling (From the Qur'an) So basically you argue since Aisha was 9, therefore it is permitted for people to marry at this same age. There are 2 problems here. 1. If this logic follows, then it is first and foremost "Sunnah" to marry someone 1. 15 years older than you 2. A divorcee or a Widow. - But wait, That doesn't sound too reasonable. - Naturally, because Muhammed was not an IKEA guidebook in which we follow in every single aspect. 2. This marriage is derived by common principles, mainly being: "That the natural minimum age for sexual relations is puberty. That just because the body is ready, doesn’t mean that the person is necessarily mature enough. Maturity changes according to each society and time period, and so each country is free to determine an age of consent, based on maturity and other social factors, but it must not be lower than the age of puberty." Essentially, 18 is an age of consent in Islam and depending on which era you live in (such as the old U.S where the age of consent was 13 in some areas) it can be lower, it isnt set in stone, it's derived by basic principles that are set in stone. I'm guessing your issue with the marriage is moral? Morality is subjective and cultural norms are essentially what decide what is moral and what is not, like human sacrifices in south America, That was moral in an era, not anymore. Anyways, you have no stepping stone to argue, Do you? @Pikslap |
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