| Extinct? Basically. It's rare to find a show that uses hand-drawn animation nowadays, let alone cel-animation. Outdated? No, at least not aesthetically. Technologically, yes, as it's easier and faster to do digital drawing and use CGI, as you don't have to physically store every drawn frame, but a lot of cel-animation is just more detailed and often better-animated, and allow for somehow more variety in color pallets and tones. We probably couldn't replicate the look of Boogiepop 2000 or Kino's Journey 2003 in today's time with what people use now (especially since Boogiepop 2019 and Kino's Journey 2017 sure as hell didn't do it), though we can definitely pull off stuff now that they could have never done before, particularly in regards to CGI, which still tends to be...hit or miss. |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
| It's pretty much extinct. I hope Miyazaki can finish his movie before he dies. The modern digital animation is unappealing to me. I almost never watch anime anymore. Well, it's partly because of the anime art styles and stories of today. I am enjoying Avatar: The Last Airbender and Samurai Jack right now, even though they are from that ugly early 2000 period of digital animation. |
| cells at work should have ressurected this forgotten genre |
 |
CodeBlazeFate said: It's rare to find a show that uses hand-drawn animation nowadays What? Unless something is clearly 3DCG every character and piece of key animation you see is going to be hand-drawn. |
syncrogazer said: No, it's all drawn on tablets and computers. They don't use pen (or color pencils and whatnot) and paper for this anymore. Hand-drawn refers to drawing with those kinds of materials, non-digital drawing, if you will.CodeBlazeFate said: It's rare to find a show that uses hand-drawn animation nowadays What? Unless something is clearly 3DCG every character and piece of key animation you see is going to be hand-drawn. |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
CodeBlazeFate said: No, it's all drawn on tablets and computers. They don't use pen (or color pencils and whatnot) and paper for this anymore. Hand-drawn refers to drawing with those kinds of materials, non-digital drawing, if you will. I can't find any proof of this whatsoever. Literally every behind-the-scenes look I've seen shows key animation done on paper. https://i.gzn.jp/img/2019/06/10/tagatame-satelight-2/b31.jpg |
syncrogazerJun 22, 2019 9:30 PM
| I guess at this point it's reasonable to say that yes, it is extinct, because studios are at the end of the day companies that seek to maximize profits so obviously they are going to resort to the cost-minimizing drawing/animation methods, which nowadays it is digital animation. Cel was waay more time consuming compared to digital, so it comes as no surprise. Outdated? No way. Many anime made during the cel era I'd argue look way better than many digital anime produced nowadays. |
| extinct unfortunately. the machines they used to record it no longer exist. and there's no way in hell they're going back when they have it easier with digital art. |
| 馬鹿げた倫理 全部ガラクタで |
romagia said: I just wanted to post to give you props for this pun. :)cells at work should have ressurected this forgotten genre |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| cel animation will probably never make a comeback. For better or worse things change and evolve as times moves on, including anime. Some people don't like the changes and choose to stick to the older stuff. Personally I'm fine with either as long as I keep getting interesting stuff to watch. |
| It is not as much outdated as it is expensive to make It simply isn't profitable |
 |
CodeBlazeFate said: syncrogazer said: No, it's all drawn on tablets and computers. They don't use pen (or color pencils and whatnot) and paper for this anymore. Hand-drawn refers to drawing with those kinds of materials, non-digital drawing, if you will.What? Unless something is clearly 3DCG every character and piece of key animation you see is going to be hand-drawn. Drawn on tablet doesn't count as hand-drawn? What's the different between the 2? OT: I don't like cel animation so I'm ok with it being extinct. I wouldn't mind a couple of shows a year on cels tho. I don't watch every anime that comes out regardless, so it wouldn't really be an issue to skip 1 or 2 more anime. But, the problem might be that, considering most people dislike cells, just like me, there wouldn't be a big enough audience to get back the costs of the production, that as far as I know, are pretty expensive. |
vhagar8 said: considering most people dislike cells You're talking completely out of your ass |
 |
deg said: Huh, thanks for the link. Now I’m more well-informed on the lack of hand-drawn animation being a myth.CodeBlazeFate said: It's rare to find a show that uses hand-drawn animation nowadays Anime is hand drawn. By people, with their hands. Animation is drawn as it used to be, then gets scanned so that painting and assembling of all elements is done on a computer. https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2017/06/23/anime-craft-weekly-41-i-cant-believe-its-2017-and-i-have-to-write-that-anime-is-hand-drawn/ and this thread is missing the info that there is an anime overproduction going on so there is simply not enough talent and time to do cel-animation already and worse the equipment for cel-animation are now all obsolete |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Imaishi said: vhagar8 said: considering most people dislike cells You're talking completely out of your ass Didn't you know? Cell animation = bad animation :^) That's why Makoto Shinkai and his digital effects are our lord and savior. |
vhagar8 said: Now that I’m aware that almost all anime is still, hand-drawn, the diffetence is between cel-animation and animation that’s rendered digitally, with the difference being...digital rendering for thr latter and extinction for the former.CodeBlazeFate said: No, it's all drawn on tablets and computers. They don't use pen (or color pencils and whatnot) and paper for this anymore. Hand-drawn refers to drawing with those kinds of materials, non-digital drawing, if you will. Drawn on tablet doesn't count as hand-drawn? What's the different between the 2? OT: I don't like cel animation so I'm ok with it being extinct. I wouldn't mind a couple of shows a year on cels tho. I don't watch every anime that comes out regardless, so it wouldn't really be an issue to skip 1 or 2 more anime. But, the problem might be that, considering most people dislike cells, just like me, there wouldn't be a big enough audience to get back the costs of the production, that as far as I know, are pretty expensive. |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
CodeBlazeFate said: Seems like a weird definition of "hand drawn" — it's still drawn by hand.syncrogazer said: No, it's all drawn on tablets and computers. They don't use pen (or color pencils and whatnot) and paper for this anymore. Hand-drawn refers to drawing with those kinds of materials, non-digital drawing, if you will.What? Unless something is clearly 3DCG every character and piece of key animation you see is going to be hand-drawn. If one mean drawn with pencils onto paper then one should just say so. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Imaishi said: vhagar8 said: considering most people dislike cells You're talking completely out of your ass So u think most people like cel animation? Then how come bloody no one watches anime on cels? If ur triggered by reality and want to deny it that's not my problem. |
vhagar8 said: So u think most people like cel animation? Then how come bloody no one watches anime on cels? If ur triggered by reality and want to deny it that's not my problem. No, I'm not making any general statement without any data whatsover to back this up. I'm not presenting my view as the view of majority, unlike you. People do watch them though, and rightfully many are regarded as unmatched masterpieces. Cels aren't used for years now, so yeah, right. People mostly watch new anime, and by extension not the cel stuff. Just like they mostly listen to new music and watch new films. You can't derive they hate old music and old movies from that, though. And even people who do have such a silly opinion, you can't just assume they dislike cel animation specifically. In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it. Cel is outdated technology, inefficient, expensive. Sure. But don't make shit up to fit your narrative. |
|
| extinct now if not soon. eventually all aspects of animation will be cgi |
 |
Imaishi said: vhagar8 said: So u think most people like cel animation? Then how come bloody no one watches anime on cels? If ur triggered by reality and want to deny it that's not my problem. No, I'm not making any general statement without any data whatsover to back this up. I'm not presenting my view as the view of majority, unlike you. People do watch them though, and rightfully many are regarded as unmatched masterpieces. Cels aren't used for years now, so yeah, right. People mostly watch new anime, and by extension not the cel stuff. Just like they mostly listen to new music and watch new films. You can't derive they hate old music and old movies from that, though. And even people who do have such a silly opinion, you can't just assume they dislike cel animation specifically. In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it. Cel is outdated technology, inefficient, expensive. Sure. But don't make shit up to fit your narrative. Nah the one who's making shit up it's u. U clearly like old anime so ur not in the position to know why people don't watch them. It's just more convenient for u to assume it's because they're only interested in new stuff rather than accept they've tried them for themselves and didn"t enjoy them. "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." Have u lived under a rock for the last 5 years or so? |
| Cel animation is superior to computer animation imo, but it's just far too expensive to keep up. Back in the day it was the only option, but now that there are cheaper ways to make anime I don't think we'll see any new anime made with cel animation again. Because cel animation takes more effort to do well it's also just not as easy to upkeep, especially on longer series. It's much easier to find new animators who will do digital animation than find ones willing to stick with cel animation, especially if using cel animation would mean paying them less due to the extra time it takes. There are a lot of great cel animated anime out there, but there's also a lot of duds that simply weren't made by competent enough teams to make the style work out. |
zombie_pegasusJun 23, 2019 9:06 AM
  |
| Yes, it's gone if you mean the japnese animation industry. Comrade-Question said: 90's anime that have been upscaled to blu-ray look amazing when the film grain is retained Those who look amazing this way already looked great when they were released in theaters or on LD/VHS or re-released on DVDs. Scanning pictures into more pixels isn't a magical beauty staff. "organic aesthetic" I don't know what you mean by that but I often think that digital animation looks "flat": characters seem to be laying on the background with no distinction or sense of belonging. @CodeBlazeFate You might be partially right since several studios changed or tried to, inserting digital drawing in their ways like the one doing commercials and shorts, Colorido. I think hand-drawn means drawn on a physical support too. @deg I don't understand how it looks like cellulose with those filters. It only reminded me of some early-mid2000s night shows thanks to the design, colour palette and added textures/filters. |
Rei_IIIJun 24, 2019 1:23 AM
vhagar8 said: I mean no. There is a lot of love for cel-animation between those who are invested enough to watch older shows of the medium (often in part due to them liking the aesthetic or noticing how much more fluid the animation was and how much more detailed the shows tended to look [yes you could cherry-pick the worst of the worst or shows that looked pretty uneven, but that wouldn't be fair, as it's like cherrypicking Hand Shakers or berserk 2016/17 to say that modern anime look bad, which is fucking stupid]), and even among a lot of people who primarily watch newer stuff cuz it's more immediately available to them and/or they're sorta just getting into the medium, they'll likely still enjoy the look of older anime. It's definitely not a "I dislike it cuz it's different and I'm used to newer stuff" issue, at least not just that, as there are more reasons to just not like the aesthetic as you have no doubt pointed out, but it's at least as ignorant and even more incorrect to suggest that there isn't a lot of love for that style among people in the forums, including but obviously not limited to animation snobs who frequent sakugabooru. If this was the case, there wouldn't be anyone still jerking off Evangelion, Macross DYRL, or GITS and whatnot (both for their writing and their visuals). That's like saying no one watches movies made via film reels anymore. It's blatantly untrue.Imaishi said: No, I'm not making any general statement without any data whatsover to back this up. I'm not presenting my view as the view of majority, unlike you. People do watch them though, and rightfully many are regarded as unmatched masterpieces. Cels aren't used for years now, so yeah, right. People mostly watch new anime, and by extension not the cel stuff. Just like they mostly listen to new music and watch new films. You can't derive they hate old music and old movies from that, though. And even people who do have such a silly opinion, you can't just assume they dislike cel animation specifically. In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it. Cel is outdated technology, inefficient, expensive. Sure. But don't make shit up to fit your narrative. Nah the one who's making shit up it's u. U clearly like old anime so ur not in the position to know why people don't watch them. It's just more convenient for u to assume it's because they're only interested in new stuff rather than accept they've tried them for themselves and didn"t enjoy them. "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." Have u lived under a rock for the last 5 years or so? |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Rei366 said: several studios changed or tried to, inserting digital drawing in their ways like the one doing commercials and shorts, Colorido. That's not the large chunk of commercial anime that most people are going to be watching though. I don't think the majority of animators are drawing on tablets today, but I'd be interested in seeing how many actually are. This was written in 2016: Now, as a consequence, if one company decides to change their workflow it creates a problem for the rest of the industry as they can’t cooperate with the other studios in the same way. There aren’t any companies which carry all the processes alone, so one company’s decision can’t change everything all in one go. That’s becoming a problem when it comes to digitisation. It seems like this isn't something that just changes overnight. |
| Shows like Dororo have actually attempted to resurrect or imitate such quality of animation, though. It's not like it's truly extinct....not yet at least. And non-Japanese anime sure ain't reviving it, either...just saying. |
 |
vhagar8 said: Lmao buddy, just take the damn L.Imaishi said: No, I'm not making any general statement without any data whatsover to back this up. I'm not presenting my view as the view of majority, unlike you. People do watch them though, and rightfully many are regarded as unmatched masterpieces. Cels aren't used for years now, so yeah, right. People mostly watch new anime, and by extension not the cel stuff. Just like they mostly listen to new music and watch new films. You can't derive they hate old music and old movies from that, though. And even people who do have such a silly opinion, you can't just assume they dislike cel animation specifically. In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it. Cel is outdated technology, inefficient, expensive. Sure. But don't make shit up to fit your narrative. Nah the one who's making shit up it's u. U clearly like old anime so ur not in the position to know why people don't watch them. It's just more convenient for u to assume it's because they're only interested in new stuff rather than accept they've tried them for themselves and didn"t enjoy them. "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." Have u lived under a rock for the last 5 years or so? No one watches cel animation? The fuck you going on about? And no, you're not in a position either. Get back to me for when you speak only speak for yourself. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| Oh, I see you guys met vhagar. *grabs a bucket of pop-corn* Be warned, he's not going to question himself. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Deathko said: Lol yeah, I already know about him.Oh, I see you guys met vhagar. *grabs a bucket of pop-corn* Be warned, he's not going to question himself. #characterlimit |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
Ryuseishun said: Shows like Dororo have actually attempted to resurrect or imitate such quality of animation, though. It's not like it's truly extinct....not yet at least. And non-Japanese anime sure ain't reviving it, either...just saying. I don't think Dororo tries to look like cell animation at all. The only show that comes to my mind would be the recent Megalo Box. |
AshitaNoJonas said: Ryuseishun said: Shows like Dororo have actually attempted to resurrect or imitate such quality of animation, though. It's not like it's truly extinct....not yet at least. And non-Japanese anime sure ain't reviving it, either...just saying. I don't think Dororo tries to look like cell animation at all. The only show that comes to my mind would be the recent Megalo Box. I WAS gonna include Megalo Box, but sure, I guess....but that’s just my perspective. |
|
| Rather than being extinct it just evolved into a superior life form that is more cost-effective, easier, and less wasteful. As pointed out earlier hand drawing is still a crucial part of even the current animation process. |
KruszerJun 23, 2019 12:06 PM
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
CodeBlazeFate said: vhagar8 said: I mean no. There is a lot of love for cel-animation between those who are invested enough to watch older shows of the medium (often in part due to them liking the aesthetic or noticing how much more fluid the animation was and how much more detailed the shows tended to look [yes you could cherry-pick the worst of the worst or shows that looked pretty uneven, but that wouldn't be fair, as it's like cherrypicking Hand Shakers or berserk 2016/17 to say that modern anime look bad, which is fucking stupid]), and even among a lot of people who primarily watch newer stuff cuz it's more immediately available to them and/or they're sorta just getting into the medium, they'll likely still enjoy the look of older anime. It's definitely not a "I dislike it cuz it's different and I'm used to newer stuff" issue, at least not just that, as there are more reasons to just not like the aesthetic as you have no doubt pointed out, but it's at least as ignorant and even more incorrect to suggest that there isn't a lot of love for that style among people in the forums, including but obviously not limited to animation snobs who frequent sakugabooru. If this was the case, there wouldn't be anyone still jerking off Evangelion, Macross DYRL, or GITS and whatnot (both for their writing and their visuals). That's like saying no one watches movies made via film reels anymore. It's blatantly untrue.Nah the one who's making shit up it's u. U clearly like old anime so ur not in the position to know why people don't watch them. It's just more convenient for u to assume it's because they're only interested in new stuff rather than accept they've tried them for themselves and didn"t enjoy them. "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." Have u lived under a rock for the last 5 years or so? I'm not saying there isn't some love to cels, I'm saying the majority of anime fan doesn't like cels. What I was questioning in the quote "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." is the word plenty @Cabron "No one" wasn't meant to be taken literally, the conversation started when the guy questioned my wording in saying that most people dislike cels. The "no one" in this situation is just to say the portion of anime fans who watch anime on cels is so small it can be approximated to zero, it's an exaggeration, but the part of anime fans who watch anime on cel is indeed the minority @Hey_Taka-tin_Hey Go look for them yourself if you're interested, compare anime on cels growth rate in members (here on mal) in the last years to digital anime growth rate. Deathko said: Oh, I see you guys met vhagar. *grabs a bucket of pop-corn* Be warned, he's not going to question himself. To think ur the guy who taught me cels existed lol That was really helpful |
vhagar8 said: It's cuz there indeed is plenty of love even from the average user of these forums who often still enjoy these shows, with there also being a few threads every now and then about how old anime looks better than new anime (we can both agree that those threads are closed-minded. To say that most people don't like cells isn't accurate either, especially considering most newer anime fans just watch what's most available to them, that being the newer, hotter shows, and the classics people recommend, which include a fair amount of shows that are cel-animated. I know I shouldn't be speaking for the majority since it's complicated and there are tons of factors regarding the correlation (i.e NOT causation), but neither should you, and that's the point.CodeBlazeFate said: I mean no. There is a lot of love for cel-animation between those who are invested enough to watch older shows of the medium (often in part due to them liking the aesthetic or noticing how much more fluid the animation was and how much more detailed the shows tended to look [yes you could cherry-pick the worst of the worst or shows that looked pretty uneven, but that wouldn't be fair, as it's like cherrypicking Hand Shakers or berserk 2016/17 to say that modern anime look bad, which is fucking stupid]), and even among a lot of people who primarily watch newer stuff cuz it's more immediately available to them and/or they're sorta just getting into the medium, they'll likely still enjoy the look of older anime. It's definitely not a "I dislike it cuz it's different and I'm used to newer stuff" issue, at least not just that, as there are more reasons to just not like the aesthetic as you have no doubt pointed out, but it's at least as ignorant and even more incorrect to suggest that there isn't a lot of love for that style among people in the forums, including but obviously not limited to animation snobs who frequent sakugabooru. If this was the case, there wouldn't be anyone still jerking off Evangelion, Macross DYRL, or GITS and whatnot (both for their writing and their visuals). That's like saying no one watches movies made via film reels anymore. It's blatantly untrue. I'm not saying there isn't some love to cels, I'm saying the majority of anime fan doesn't like cels. What I was questioning in the quote "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." is the word plenty @Cabron "No one" wasn't meant to be taken literally, the conversation started when the guy questioned my wording in saying that most people dislike cels. The "no one" in this situation is just to say the portion of anime fans who watch anime on cels is so small it can be approximated to zero, it's an exaggeration, but the part of anime fans who watch anime on cel is indeed the minority @Hey_Taka-tin_Hey Go look for them yourself if you're interested, compare anime on cels growth rate in members (here on mal) in the last years to digital anime growth rate. Deathko said: Oh, I see you guys met vhagar. *grabs a bucket of pop-corn* Be warned, he's not going to question himself. To think ur the guy who taught me cels existed lol That was really helpful |
| Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
CodeBlazeFate said: vhagar8 said: It's cuz there indeed is plenty of love even from the average user of these forums who often still enjoy these shows, with there also being a few threads every now and then about how old anime looks better than new anime (we can both agree that those threads are closed-minded. To say that most people don't like cells isn't accurate either, especially considering most newer anime fans just watch what's most available to them, that being the newer, hotter shows, and the classics people recommend, which include a fair amount of shows that are cel-animated. I know I shouldn't be speaking for the majority since it's complicated and there are tons of factors regarding the correlation (i.e NOT causation), but neither should you, and that's the point.I'm not saying there isn't some love to cels, I'm saying the majority of anime fan doesn't like cels. What I was questioning in the quote "In fact, whenever such a discussion shows up, there is plenty of love shown for cel animation and little evidence for people disliking it." is the word plenty @Cabron "No one" wasn't meant to be taken literally, the conversation started when the guy questioned my wording in saying that most people dislike cels. The "no one" in this situation is just to say the portion of anime fans who watch anime on cels is so small it can be approximated to zero, it's an exaggeration, but the part of anime fans who watch anime on cel is indeed the minority @Hey_Taka-tin_Hey Go look for them yourself if you're interested, compare anime on cels growth rate in members (here on mal) in the last years to digital anime growth rate. To think ur the guy who taught me cels existed lol That was really helpful I don't really like generalization and I try not use them often, so I can understand what ur saying. But, in this particular context I feel rather safe to generalize. The popularity of digital anime is just that overwhelmingly greater than anime on cels in this period. And, I sure know that's not the only factor so it's a little more complicated than that (relevance sure plays a big factor as well). Still, almost all of the people I've talked to, who don't watch anime on cels, had a problem with the aesthetics (most people, including myself till like 2 months ago, don't even know cels exist). Those 2 reasons (popularity and personal experience) are enough for me to believe in my statement, if u don't agree with me, I guess that's fair. I don't care about convincing people on the subject so much to bother with all the maths to prove my point. This topic wasn't even the point of my comment to begin with. So whatever |
| Cel animation nowadays is very expensive to make (equipment included) and unknown to a large amount of the industry working in anime (not to mention the whole outsourcing madness and the way studios cooperate and the networks generated). It's simply not viable and it's been long due replaced by a cheaper, most accessible way of doing things. |
 |
vhagar8 said: @Hey_Taka-tin_Hey Go look for them yourself if you're interested, compare anime on cels growth rate in members (here on mal) in the last years to digital anime growth rate. Of course buddy, because MAL is toootally representative of the whole anime fanbase worldwide! So everything that happens in MAL is the absolute, undisputable truth... |
| Extinct, but definitely not outdated. |
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