Game of Thrones

Blarey said:
Big redemption from the past few episodes, Dany becomes the mad queen... It makes sense because she felt that the seven kingdoms likely wouldn’t follow her anyway after how far she’s come and the pain of that plus losing as much as she has recently pushed her over the edge. It looks like Arya has added a new name to her list. It’s a bit saddening they went this route with Dany, but I won’t lie and say I didn’t enjoy seeing her burn the entire city down and going batshit insane.

Cleganebowl was everything I hoped it would be and more. Cersei and Jaime’s deaths could have been handled better though.

It’s still a bit disappointing how the writing has fallen this season, with the whole city burned down and Arya conviniently has a horse waiting for her amidst the rubble. I guess that was a present from the Lord of Light?

I really hope that there’s more in store for Bran, the handling of his character is my biggest issue with the show. Could he have seen this coming and said nothing about it? Why? What is even the point of his character besides providing unexpected plot twists due to his powers?

I hope the finale is not filled with too many asspulls, I love Arya, but no way is she going to get the credit of killing the Night King and the Mad Queen. It’s likely that the writers will push a lot of big characters to the side for the ending, but hopefully it gives a good conclusion to characters like Bronn as well as everyone in the North. Overall, I’m pretty happy with this episode, despite raging hard at the past soap opera-like character development of this season and the lack of clever battle tactics that was always present in previous seasons, I think the show redeemed itself quite a bit.

RedRoseFring said:


No, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

The horse couldn't be a present from the Lord of Light......unless he's schizophrenic because he's the one that made Dany immune to fire and gave her dragons in the first place, and saved her from death multiple times.

Turning Dany "mad" is just a ridiculous notion that doesn't work with the development of of the story. They literally just butchered the story in one of the most senseless ways possible.

It also makes Bran even more useless than he's already been and is a detriment to Tyrion's character as well.

Blarey said:


The Lord of Light thing was sarcasm, obviously an excuse the writers like to use when they force something in for the hell of it.

I admit they could have done something better with Dany, but you can’t exactly say it makes no sense. Tyranny is apart of the Targaryen dynasty, the words of their house is literally “Fire and Blood”, just because she was made out to be the savior of the seven kingdoms doesn’t mean that’s how things are going to play out in the end. You can see signs of her Targaryen nature throughout the series, once she experiences hate or anger, she was always ruthless in acting those emotions out.

RedRoseFring said:


But that also doesn't make sense because Jon is also a Targareyan, but that is who the writers have been trying to bash over the viewers' heads as the best choice.
Rhaegar (Jon's father) was a Targareyan but wasn't cruel either.

Instances of Dany punishing or responding to people are used as excuses to paint her in a bad light when any ruler would have to do similar or not last long enough to rule at all!
Such mistakes aren't small, considering that Jon was killed for one such mistake for example. The only reason he's alive is the same magic that has kept Dany alive.

The only discernible way it could make sense is if it happened in a similar time as her journey through all of Essos and to Westeros which took 7 seasons, but they've done this nonsense in 3 episodes.

Blarey said:


The writing certainly isn't perfect, far from it actually. In response to why Jon or his father aren't tyrants, here is a quote from earlier on in the series that Cersei says to Tyrion about the Targaryens:

"Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? 'Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin.'"

Basically saying that it's left up to chance. You can read more info on the history of their house here:

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/House_Targaryen


As well as a more in-depth description of the history of "Targaryen Madness" from the books, here:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Targaryen_madness


It would have made more sense with better pacing and slowly showing how Dany went mad, but yeah like I said before, the writing isn't perfect. Just keep in mind, this isn't the same kindhearted Dany who freed slaves like earlier on in the series, she has lost her naivety, and replaced it with anger. She tried for a long time to do things the better way, but she lost two dragons and a lot of her people because of that. Well, technically she lost all that from making dumb decisions, but still. If she would have done this from the beginning, she might not have lost so much.

After having Tyrion and Varys "temper her worst impulses" for so long and after everything that's happened recently, I guess she just kind of snapped.

RedRoseFring said:


Even if it is left up to chance, the "madness" of King Aerys is very different from the garbage they tried to portray for Dany.
Aerys was literally hearing voices and giving out absurd commands like stockpiling wildfire, burning the lords around him and even that progressed over time (and all that was also suggested to be interference by the 3-eyed raven trying to warn him in the past).
Dany in a single instant just decided that she would burn random people in the street when the person she went to King's Landing for was just a little distance away with no provocation. That is also after just saving everyone a few weeks ago. It's indefensible and ridiculous.

Even in the link you posted, it is stated that only Aerys was considered truly mad, and for all the others that were suggested to be mad, there were reasons for their actions such as desperation.
There was absolutely no reason for Dany to start randomly burning people.

It's worse than "the writing isn't perfect", it's absolutely atrocious. Portraying Dany going mad should take quite a long time and have gradually increasing instances of such.

And no, I do not think she was wrong to take the advice of her counselors to not just go burning down KL, but her advisors failed her after that point. Varys resorted to treason practically instantly and was speaking as if all hope was lost when he was practically useless himself. Tyrion as well has suffered under the writers and has only been making "mistakes" which all conveniently happened when he was working for Dany. All his wit has been thrown out the window to partially justify this which is why I said this hurts his character just as much as Dany's. The Tyrion from seasons 1-4 was reduced to saying "that was a mistake" almost every time he has to talk to Dany in these last 2 seasons.
The writers just had them throwing around "temper her worst impulses" without having them do anything to solve the problems causing them in the first place!

Bacardi-x-Chai said:
Also if Arya ends up killing Dany, people are gonna riot next week.

RedRoseFring said:
Or are we to accept that the ringing of bells are the worst thing to ever happen to Dany?
I mean, she didn't even go directly for Cersei but took a leisurely ride to barbecue some women and kids for half an hour before even turning her attention to the Red Keep because of some bells?!?!?

Blarey said:

I think the intention was always to make Dany go mad in the end, it just wasn't executed properly.

Blarey said:



Hmm, you do bring up a good point. When taking into consideration the history of who Dany's father is and not to mention her brother was evil as well, I think the intention was always to make Dany go mad in the end, it just wasn't executed properly. Then you look at Jon's parents who were both good people and how Jon grew up, that likely influenced the difference in his personality and is why he would make a better ruler.

The saying "Targaryen Madness" didn't only come from King Aerys though, it supposedly is due to inbreeding.

"Unfortunately, some believe that this practice of inbreeding has also caused the trait of insanity to plague House Targaryen; though some members are known to be perfectly normal psychologically-speaking, other Targaryens throughout history have displayed bizarre, erratic and sometimes violent behavior, succumbing to the so-called 'Targaryen madness'."

So we are supposed to believe everything that happened recently is what triggered Dany's insanity, but yeah it's also heavily flawed since she was fine before the Battle of Winterfell. The way I see it is that losing most of her people is what stirred her insanity, as we can see right after the Battle of Winterfell is when she starts acting strange. Then her advisors turning on her, Jon betraying her (in her eyes) and she loses Missandei plus another dragon which further escalates everything. I would agree though that it's too drastic of a change over too short of a time period.

Before that she did do some questionable things like burning the Tarly's alive or killing the slavers in Meereen which could hardly be called justice, a lot of the things she did out of anger and not because they had to be done. I think if the writers took a slower pace and progressed her descent into madness over a longer period of time, it would make a lot more sense, but I'm also not incredibly disappointed with it either. She has shown many signs of madness throughout the series especially when related to getting the throne.

-InfiniteLoop- said:
The writers said something like When she saw the Red Keep which her ancestors built it was a reminder of all that they took away from her family. That was the moment she decided to make things personal and decided to burn the whole city. Dany essentially broke in the scene and went mad. She was barely hanging on to a thread after losing Jorah, Missandei and her two drangons, being betrayed by her advisers and Jon and not being loved by the people of Westeros. Seeing the Red keep was the final nail in the coffin.

Is it good writing? Maybe if they gave it more time to develop but to me it seemed rushed and a bit out there. Dany was always meant to burn the city down I think, Bran saw it in his vision. Go to 1:20 to see it.

Silverstorm said:

That should be from the past what Bran saw, perhaps foreshadowing.

RedRoseFring said:

That's just dumb. It reminded her of what her ancestors built, and right when she gets it back she decides to burn it down anyway? While her armies are still in the city as well?
It's atrocious writing, no need to be delicate about that.

Bran's vision is just vague enough to slip that in there, so it doesn't really excuse them either. They made whatever value visions had pointless when they decided that "subverting expectations" was the way to go anyway.

Sad said:
there was four characters in particular i really never wanted them to drop the ball on; stannis, jaime, sandor and cersei. i feel like they failed on all but sandor. reading the books they were total standout characters for me. i'll be so sad if GRRM has similar endings in mind for all.

Only_Brad said:
There's a reason why the current POTUS wants to build WALLS.

RedRoseFring said:
Funny enough, the only decent thing in the episode was the most predictable. The Hound and Mountain dying together.

RedRoseFring said:
Funny enough, the only decent thing in the episode was the most predictable. The Hound and Mountain dying together.
Maybe the writers actually feared the outrage from the Cleganebowl fanatics because that was exempt from their "subverting expectations."

KreatorX said:
Really enjoyed episode 5 because it defied all I expected.

Voldo said:

You'll enjoy the final episode too then were Tyrion dies from a cocaine overdose, Arya takes a gig as a circus clown before Ned Stark wakes up and realizes it was all a dream.

Voldo said:

You'll enjoy the final episode too then were Tyrion dies from a cocaine overdose, Arya takes a gig as a circus clown before Ned Stark wakes up and realizes it was all a dream.

Voldo said:
Funny thing is that the writers have confirmed in an earlier season that Daenerys is not evil or mad like her father, she is in fact a "good" Targaryen, despite her ruthlessness.

https://youtu.be/QY7uvjj4UwI?t=50

MischievousGhost said:

“She’s a Targaryen”
This is such a lazy justification for what happened this episode. I get it, Targaryens are known for being prone to madness, but Dany’s change to a full-blown psycho hit her out of nowhere (the writers reasoned that she was triggered by the sight of the Red Keep and decided to make things “personal” lol), whereas with the Mad King it was developed during his rule via delusions and hallucinations. And we’re meant to find Dany's twist convincing because the characters constantly talked about how she's “bad news” despite her sacrificing so much in the North. -.-

SamHandwich said:
"Dany's change to a full-blown psycho" didn't come out of nowhere. Since the moment Viserys got the golden crown, Dany has visibly expressed pleasure in her enemies suffering agonizing deaths. Every time she saw a slaver or a Meereenese plumber in the wrong place at the wrong time, she would start sneering and hyperventilating before hitting that dracarys. She'd make no distinctions about culpability when setting slaves on everyone in the city they inhabited. I'd go so far as to say her mission to free slaves was a smokescreen to justify her need to dominate and punish using the intoxicating bloodthirst that comes with sole ownership of all dragons. This is a common issue in the real world when someone's capacity for violence outstrips their discipline and empathy. Her favor for the Dothraki is also a strong indicator of her cruelty. They burn villages, force marriages, and capture/assault innocents. She only objects to this once... It's not the pillaging of the village she has a problem with, she just doesn't want the captured surviving women to be used irresponsibly. It's her, adopting a cause for the vanity of it, just like the encompassing anti-slavery mission she claims to care about. Khal Drogo gives an impassioned speech about doing all of this to everyone in Westeros, commoner or otherwise, and Dany is just standing there... Chin-up, looking down her nose with a cross-eyed crazy-person grin on her face. I'd call her approval of Drogo's proposal a double standard, IF she gave a damn about anyone in Essos. She's not even competent enough to consider Tyrion's proposal of segueing into a functional economy during the twilight of slavery. The institution, while barbaric, is what slaves relied on for basic necessities since these Essos cities had no other major industries to lean on. It takes time to replace that foundation without starving the people you want to free. She doesn't need to worry about food though, all she needs from Essos is an army that owes her loyalty. Her entire character is "mindless psychotic draconic power trip."

Viewer's acceptance of Dany as a righteous liberator comes down to the way she was framed in production. Music, writing, and context all made her appear like the antithesis of Cersei while her actions throughout the series exposed her as an egomaniacal tyrant.

Voldo said:
Dany was never any darker than Arya who literally make pies out of people and serve it to their families, or Sansa who with a grin on her face watches a man get eaten alive by his dogs. Jon even executed some 12-ish year old boy who went against him. Tyrion used wildfire against Stannis' fleet and then murdered his own father along with the girl he loved. I don't think Dany's cruelty or madness is any worse than theirs.