| A lot of people in the western anime community have a problem with how female anime characters are represented in the medium. They are either "useless" "Too sexualized" or "too dependant on a man". I am here to tell you that these assertions are not only arrogant but are dangerous to fiction as a whole. You cannot tell a person how to write their characters. You can have criticisms of the characters but it seems like there is a desire to dictate which types of characters that should exist. But setting limits on how one can depict certain things, you are harming the idea of artist expression. There is an idea that there is a "right" way to portray a woman in fiction. She has to be respectable, independent other things. That is not true. There is no one way to write a female character. Characters are used to serve the narrative. The narrative dictates the type of characters that will be needed to get the message across. And characters, just like women, are pretty different in how they behave. So I don't see how representing women in one way will do justice to women as a whole. And I also noticed in other threads people are complaining about how there are not enough good female characters. Ok, so what is the appropriate ratio for good female characters to bad female characters? And how are you going to decide what type of female character is good for which type of show? Or is one archetype good for all genres? And what is meaningful development for a female character? And how should she behave in every situation? And how does the character fit with author's thematic intentions? What is the difference between two female characters from the same genre? What traits are good for a female character to have? Why are those traits 'good'? I like female characters but I like a variety of them. I just don't like the woman who is basically a man in terms of a stoic personality and "badass" so to speak. I like bimbos, geniuses, and warriors (like casca). And there is nothing wrong with liking a character that is 'submissive' or sexualized. Or are otaku bait. Who cares? It is pretty absurd to revile your own fetishes because of someone's disapproval of your tastes. I am not saying you cannot criticize the character or the anime in general but my criticism comes from a place where people are saying you are immoral or hate women because you like certain archetypes within anime. Or that the writers are bad people for writing females that they like. Fiction is a place for fantasy. People can engage in all sorts of ideas that they would not be able to if not for this medium. |
| Why do we even need to discuss this ? pals don't care how their waifu is portrayed. They just love her, no matter what. |
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| I have only a problem with those abusive disgusting creatures called tsunderes |
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| I guess that most female characters are written is some specific ways, because that's probably what most people either want or can relate to. |
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Orion_Gospel said: I guess that most female characters are written is some specific ways, because that's probably what most people either want or can relate to. Exactly, the market needs variety of characters that's the reason, and only reason. |
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Swagernator said: Orion_Gospel said: I guess that most female characters are written is some specific ways, because that's probably what most people either want or can relate to. Exactly, the market needs variety of characters that's the reason, and only reason. True. And if some types of female characters won't be as popular as some others, then we'll have more sexualized and too dependant on a man. It's always based on what consumers/society wants. I don't think companies/mangakas/anyone else, will try to risk it that much, especially if they gain lots of money from what they already do. |
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THERE IS THE ULTIMATE WRONG WAY TO WRITE A FEMALE CHARACTER ALL RIGHT.... If you don't know who she is, consider yourself BLESSED. xD |
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PoeticJustice said: A lot of people in the western anime community have a problem with how female anime characters are represented in the medium. They are either "useless" "Too sexualized" or "too dependant on a man". I am here to tell you that these assertions are not only arrogant but are dangerous to fiction as a whole. You cannot tell a person how to write their characters. You can have criticisms of the characters but it seems like there is a desire to dictate which types of characters that should exist. But setting limits on how one can depict certain things, you are harming the idea of artist expression. There is an idea that there is a "right" way to portray a woman in fiction. She has to be respectable, independent other things. That is not true. There is no one way to write a female character. Characters are used to serve the narrative. The narrative dictates the type of characters that will be needed to get the message across. And characters, just like women, are pretty different in how they behave. So I don't see how representing women in one way will do justice to women as a whole. And I also noticed in other threads people are complaining about how there are not enough good female characters. Ok, so what is the appropriate ratio for good female characters to bad female characters? And how are you going to decide what type of female character is good for which type of show? Or is one archetype good for all genres? And what is meaningful development for a female character? And how should she behave in every situation? And how does the character fit with author's thematic intentions? What is the difference between two female characters from the same genre? What traits are good for a female character to have? Why are those traits 'good'? I like female characters but I like a variety of them. I just don't like the woman who is basically a man in terms of a stoic personality and "badass" so to speak. I like bimbos, geniuses, and warriors (like casca). And there is nothing wrong with liking a character that is 'submissive' or sexualized. Or are otaku bait. Who cares? It is pretty absurd to revile your own fetishes because of someone's disapproval of your tastes. I am not saying you cannot criticize the character or the anime in general but my criticism comes from a place where people are saying you are immoral or hate women because you like certain archetypes within anime. Or that the writers are bad people for writing females that they like. Fiction is a place for fantasy. People can engage in all sorts of ideas that they would not be able to if not for this medium. My whole take on it is that what makes a "good" character and a "bad" character is purely subjective anyway. Take away all the tropes, some characters are just written to be incredibly unlikable. If the consumer doesn't like the way the author portrays their characters, they can vote with their wallet, but they should have no direct say over the creative direction of the work. |
| I wish anime had no female characters. |
code said: I wish anime had no female characters. Bullshit. Evangelion is in your favorites and I'm sure it's not for the male characters. XD |
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Chiibi said: Kaworu may not be a traditional male, but he makes my heart stop. code said: I wish anime had no female characters. Bullshit. Evangelion is in your favorites and I'm sure it's not for the male characters. XD |
| @PoeticJustice And there is nothing wrong with liking a character that is 'submissive' or sexualized. Or are otaku bait. Who cares? It is pretty absurd to revile your own fetishes because of someone's disapproval of your tastes. It is pretty absurd to mistake your own fetishes for good writing tho. There's a difference between saying "I like X" and "X is a good char". I'm not even saying "good writing" is some objective thing, but at some point people need to learn to not be delusional about the entertainment they consume. I used to have a hentai char in my favorites because I like her, not because she is well-written (tho by hentai standards, she kinda is, I guess) |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Clebardman said: Well its not like she was badly written and if a character isn't badly written what are they?@PoeticJustice And there is nothing wrong with liking a character that is 'submissive' or sexualized. Or are otaku bait. Who cares? It is pretty absurd to revile your own fetishes because of someone's disapproval of your tastes. It is pretty absurd to mistake your own fetishes for good writing tho. There's a difference between saying "I like X" and "X is a good char". I'm not even saying "good writing" is some objective thing, but at some point people need to learn to not be delusional about the entertainment they consume. I used to have a hentai char in my favorites because I like her, not because she is well-written (tho by hentai standards, she kinda is, I guess) |
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| Yeah people are always trying to force political correctness into anime. |
| are you writing an essay m8 ? i bet u r gonna get a high score on that lol. Swagernator said: Why do we even need to discuss this ? pals don't care how their waifu is portrayed. They just love her, no matter what. like this man said fam. if i put those unbelievably long essay of yours aside, it's about taste, it's about majority. why something that you like isn't exist in anime ? because no one likes it or no one has even think about it. industry only make something that is popular and majority likes. Nyu said: Yeah people are always trying to force political correctness into anime. plus this. this is anime. animation. fiction. fantasy. where anything can happen. deal with it xD you dont like it you dont have to watch it. if you like it, you can watch it. free up to you. why people likes to make things more difficult lol conspiracy ? hahaha |
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YizelTro said: are you writing an essay m8 ? i bet u r gonna get a high score on that lol. Swagernator said: Why do we even need to discuss this ? pals don't care how their waifu is portrayed. They just love her, no matter what. like this man said fam. if i put those unbelievably long essay of yours aside, it's about taste, it's about majority. why something that you like isn't exist in anime ? because no one likes it or no one has even think about it. industry only make something that is popular and majority likes. Nope, Actually a lot of the anime industry will target very small niche markets of people for BD sales, they don't really target the majority at all. Its one of the reasons I still like the anime industry because anything that targets the majority all the time will naturally shy away from being experimental. |
FontSize72LOL said: YizelTro said: are you writing an essay m8 ? i bet u r gonna get a high score on that lol. like this man said fam. if i put those unbelievably long essay of yours aside, it's about taste, it's about majority. why something that you like isn't exist in anime ? because no one likes it or no one has even think about it. industry only make something that is popular and majority likes. Nope, Actually a lot of the anime industry will target very small niche markets of people for BD sales, they don't really target the majority at all. Its one of the reasons I still like the anime industry because anything that targets the majority all the time will naturally shy away from being experimental. i get what ya mean :D even if it's popular, it aint gonna last long enough. there will be the end of it. but still it's very difficult to do it. they need to think about the budget to and the profit. it's about luck and bad luck. kinda risky but if they do it, they get the jackpot. am i right m8 ? |
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| Hmmm... I'm speaking for myself here, having watched a very limited number of animes... I believe that female characters are poorly explored above everything, and that's the problem. Yes, it's credible for one to be submissive/dependant of a man, but normally that's all there is to such characters and it's obvious that they are solely a shadow for the main character to shine brighter and have an "accomplished life", with a lady who cheers and mourns him. Besides, it's WAY too common for female protagonists to be like that, independently of the genre of the anime. Give a female character one scene of her own and she doesn't know anything to talk about if not the male protagonist. In those cases, they feel like mere tools for shipping/fanservice. There are men whose only objective in life is to protect a girl as well, but that still fall into the notion that women are helpless without men. The fact that women are weaker than men in most action stories is frustrating because it also reinforces that idea, that women can't do anything without them, and that's only an idea because our society developed like that, I believe. So, in a different setting, things shouldn't have to go that way. The problems lie beneath all that, then... Including in the fact that women are generally either useless alone or behave like a man and no balance exists. So, yeah, I agree with Clebardman, it's about not being well-written. °u° I can understand a person that disapproves you liking female characters that are completely irrealistic, though I myself like stereotypical ikemen. |
YizelTro said: FontSize72LOL said: Nope, Actually a lot of the anime industry will target very small niche markets of people for BD sales, they don't really target the majority at all. Its one of the reasons I still like the anime industry because anything that targets the majority all the time will naturally shy away from being experimental. i get what ya mean :D even if it's popular, it aint gonna last long enough. there will be the end of it. but still it's very difficult to do it. they need to think about the budget to and the profit. it's about luck and bad luck. kinda risky but if they do it, they get the jackpot. am i right m8 ? I have nothing against mainstream appeal when it comes to shows, Its just that I don't like it when the industry isn't willing to take risks. That is a huge issue i have with the AAA gaming scene, or MMORPGs in the last 5-10 years. In games, Its usually smaller studios and indie game devs who take all the risk. When they're successful, larger publishers will gobble them up to profit on that success. I suppose that is also the case a lot of the time in the anime industry. But you'll also see larger studios pick up something niche here and there still, or push out an original. It is a bit of a gamble like you said though, but that is one of the things that keeps the industry fresh DairyRoadway said: Hmmm... I'm speaking for myself here, having watched a very limited number of animes... I believe that female characters are poorly explored above everything, and that's the problem. Yes, it's credible for one to be submissive/dependant of a man, but normally that's all there is to such characters and it's obvious that they are solely a shadow for the main character to shine brighter and have an "accomplished life", with a lady who cheers and mourns him. Besides, it's WAY too common for female protagonists to be like that, independently of the genre of the anime. Give a female character one scene of her own and she doesn't know anything to talk about if not the male protagonist. In those cases, they feel like mere tools for shipping/fanservice. There are men whose only objective in life is to protect a girl as well, but that still fall into the notion that women are helpless without men. The fact that women are weaker than men in most action stories is frustrating because it also reinforces that idea, that women can't do anything without them, and that's only an idea because our society developed like that, I believe. So, in a different setting, things shouldn't have to go that way. The problems lie beneath all that, then... Including in the fact that women are generally either useless alone or behave like a man and no balance exists. So, yeah, I agree with Clebardman, it's about not being well-written. °u° I can understand a person that disapproves you liking female characters that are completely irrealistic, though I myself like stereotypical ikemen. Honestly you can flip everything you said around towards the portrayal of males in anime. A fair amount of anime will be marketed towards male otaku. Thats just the nature of the business and thats because they're the ones buying the BDs/Merch. The people who buy these things are also usually lacking some sort of fulfillment in their own lives so they substitute it with the fantasy provided in these shows. Leaving aside whether or not that is a healthy mindset, That isn't something you or I have control over, nor should we. Its up to the consumers which shows, characters and themes are acceptable. As the western market expands, you'll get a bit more influence over the industry but there are still plenty of people over here that like the same things that the japanese otaku do, so you'll have that to contend with. |
FontSize72LOLNov 30, 2017 1:49 PM
| There's a lot of self-righteous shits on the internet, what there is new? Let them justify what they blabber and it's all good. Anyway, anyway it's all inside mangaka's head so I'm sure it's all gonna be good. |
| I agree with pretty everything you said. Female characters seem to get A LOT more criticism than male characters for whatever flaws they have, and then when they're too good at something then the Mary Sue card comes out. Male characters seem to be judged as just characters, while female characters also have to pass the "do they serve as a feminist icon" test before people even start to talk about their development and personality. It's ironic that this overly critical view is associated with feminism since in the end it's quite the opposite and creates this expectation that women can only fall within a narrow view of "strong female character" rather than allowing variety. And yeah, the "not enough strong women in anime" threads are irritating. People pull that shit with video games too and I have to wonder if it's because they're trying to find strong women in Tertis. |
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Squidster said: I agree with pretty everything you said. Female characters seem to get A LOT more criticism than male characters for whatever flaws they have, and then when they're too good at something then the Mary Sue card comes out. Male characters seem to be judged as just characters, while female characters also have to pass the "do they serve as a feminist icon" test before people even start to talk about their development and personality. It's ironic that this overly critical view is associated with feminism since in the end it's quite the opposite and creates this expectation that women can only fall within a narrow view of "strong female character" rather than allowing variety. Yeah, you are very right. Good female characters don't HAVE to be "strong"; they just need to be interesting and have a couple good traits. Shirayuki is a good example; she does need help from time to time; she is not the best at defending herself....but she IS spirited and intelligent and mature. This makes her likable enough. People pull that shit with video games too and I have to wonder if it's because they're trying to find strong women in Tertis. LMAO XD |
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| Reasonable people already know this. Those obsessed with identity politics are confused about this, though. That review of Keijo by a feminist website is the perfect example of people that care more about seeing their image of how women should be on screen than about narrative and context. |
on 
| I agree. Some women are indeed useless, sexualized, and overly dependent on men in real life, and you can see this type in Western media as well. There’s room for all types of female representations. |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
| prefference is a thing, same goes with male character, really... you simply can't satisfy everyone... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I agree, but when you have stereotypical female characters that have literally been done 1000 times before then there's a problem with the writing. |
 Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
| At least with me, my view is that creators should be able to make a character however they want. Although, one isn’t free from criticism, but you don’t have to conform if you don’t want to |
| Eh, yes there is, the only way to write a good female character is by being Nisio Isin. |
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DairyRoadway said: Hmmm... I'm speaking for myself here, having watched a very limited number of animes... Which does explain why everything that follows after this sentence is wildly incorrect. FontSize72LOL said: A fair amount of anime will be marketed towards male otaku. Thats just the nature of the business and thats because they're the ones buying the BDs/Merch. The people who buy these things are also usually lacking some sort of fulfillment in their own lives so they substitute it with the fantasy provided in these shows. What fantasy is being provided by Love Live, a series with no male characters in it? Electik said: but if its a slice of life or one that has a more realistic setting, girls can tend to be left to the sidelines for the male protagonist (if we're talking shounen and a lot of other genres) meaning that they're not as developed as they /could/ be which can be disappointing if you know the character has a lot of potential (or a cute design). SoL is a genre almost exclusively revolving around female characters, and realistic settings do not in any way correlate with female characters being left to the sidelines. |
There is no "correct" way to write or depict a female character. There's a "correct" way to write and depict a female character. The Japanese Hentai as well as those Chinese mainstream novels take it on another level, molest and raping women in their story to glorify the barbaric way of their Male Lead, and they depict a lot of one-dimensional women with a purpose of being fucked. That alone is evident that there's a "wrong" way of writing or depicting a female character. What was hentai in japan is normal in china. |
youseikiNov 30, 2017 11:33 PM
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Deknijff said: Clebardman said: Well its not like she was badly written and if a character isn't badly written what are they?@PoeticJusticeIt is pretty absurd to mistake your own fetishes for good writing tho. There's a difference between saying "I like X" and "X is a good char". I'm not even saying "good writing" is some objective thing, but at some point people need to learn to not be delusional about the entertainment they consume. I used to have a hentai char in my favorites because I like her, not because she is well-written (tho by hentai standards, she kinda is, I guess) If my fav chars list depended on writing quality, you bet Griffith would be somewhere here instead of every lesbian comedic relief character I could find. And no hentai char would fucking appear in it ever. There's a fair margin between being horseshit, and being a well written character, don't you think? I'm not sure what's so hard about admitting you can like something that isn't a literary masterpiece. I'm seriously tired of people spouting nonsense like "I like it=it's the best thing ever". Get some self-awareness, MAL. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
| I've never liked the "useless" argument to begin with. Often times, I see characters who are deemed as such to serve niche, unconventional roles or purposes. Not every character needs to save the world or be the game changer. It can be in the little things. Sometimes, it's even those small things that make them stand out more. Even the archetypes can have their own distinctions when you look at the overall nuances of a series. But who knows. Perhaps I just like to find value where so few will look. |
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| Correct doesn't even exist. It's just a patriarchal social construct meant to undermine females and objectify them. Everything is relative and there are no facts. When you say 2+2=4 -1 =3 quick maffs, that is just an opinion. Don't try to poison my mind with your biased notion of what a female should be. That view isn't "correct" it is just your opinion. But your opinion is wrong. |
| The correct way to depict female characters is as diverse individuals. Some should be assertive, some should be timid. Some should revel in their sexuality, some should be modest. Some should be independent, some should be dependent. Etc. What you want to avoid is carrying a message of "all women are like this", just like you should want to avoid carrying a message of "all men are like this". (That is, assuming you're writing a general-purpose story.) |
logopolisDec 1, 2017 12:17 AM
| Though I have different preferences when it come to male and female characters I like, the correct way to depict a female characters is no differrent than correct way to depict male characters. As in, it's how well the character is written regardless of the gender. One dimensional strong female character is no better than one dimensional strong male character and vice versa, etc. Of course in the end it's just fiction and it's all up to the author/mangaka to portray their characters. What consumer needs to do is just pick what fit with their own preferences. It's sad that strong/fighter/leader female characters is such a rarity in mainstream media and many people brushed such characters as "unrealistic" or "wrong" or "mary sue". But it's not like there is anything we can do about it either smh |
 OTP: KidLaw | IzuKatsu | GureShin | EruRi | AoKi | See more!» My art » My translation » Doujinshi collection » Favorite Kurobas doujinshi BISHIES X RAP |
| @FontSize72LOL dang agree with that. well if it's me i would target the popular trending for the beginning to get more profit until it's enough to make something new outside the boundary of popularity. obvious a very big concentration and high quality on all aspects are very needed to success it. it's okay to stay on the bouundary of popularity but it's necessary for us to keep exploring, searching for something new for the sake of our culture, because animation is creativity and we need to grow our creativity, not staying at the same place again and again. |
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| I'm down to every depiction of female (and male) characters unless the chatacter itself is a culimination of cliches and nothing else. There are variety of settings, and an anime series such as Basilisk and Kurozuka can't depict female characters the same as a modern day setting anime. That would feel as if they're beautifying what was authentic back then, like its hollywood style, if you know what I mean. Women tend to be sexualized in anime since many of them appeal to males in their 20 or 30's. But I wouldn't generalize and say that's in every anime out there. |
DeadIEndDec 1, 2017 5:57 AM
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Clebardman said: Well thats all good Clebardman but I wasn't asking about what tier level certain characters are when thinking of good writing and how people perceive that of which they like Deknijff said: If my fav chars list depended on writing quality, you bet Griffith would be somewhere here instead of every lesbian comedic relief character I could find. And no hentai char would fucking appear in it ever. There's a fair margin between being horseshit, and being a well written character, don't you think?Well its not like she was badly written and if a character isn't badly written what are they? I'm not sure what's so hard about admitting you can like something that isn't a literary masterpiece. I'm seriously tired of people spouting nonsense like "I like it=it's the best thing ever". Get some self-awareness, MAL. Im just asking what you'd call a character that isn't badly written like Suzukawa who was in your favs list |
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| Well...that's what you think. Respect how they created the character. |
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Saint_Nepunepu said: DairyRoadway said: Hmmm... I'm speaking for myself here, having watched a very limited number of animes... Which does explain why everything that follows after this sentence is wildly incorrect. FontSize72LOL said: A fair amount of anime will be marketed towards male otaku. Thats just the nature of the business and thats because they're the ones buying the BDs/Merch. The people who buy these things are also usually lacking some sort of fulfillment in their own lives so they substitute it with the fantasy provided in these shows. What fantasy is being provided by Love Live, a series with no male characters in it? Electik said: but if its a slice of life or one that has a more realistic setting, girls can tend to be left to the sidelines for the male protagonist (if we're talking shounen and a lot of other genres) meaning that they're not as developed as they /could/ be which can be disappointing if you know the character has a lot of potential (or a cute design). SoL is a genre almost exclusively revolving around female characters, and realistic settings do not in any way correlate with female characters being left to the sidelines. It targets the cross between anime Otaku and Idol Otaku. So i guess a similar fantasy that is sold by Idols to Idol Otaku. |
FontSize72LOL said: It targets the cross between anime Otaku and Idol Otaku. So i guess a similar fantasy that is sold by Idols to Idol Otaku. What makes this different from any other fantasy, like a war fantasy, a detective fantasy or a magical girl fantasy? |
Saint_Nepunepu said: FontSize72LOL said: It targets the cross between anime Otaku and Idol Otaku. So i guess a similar fantasy that is sold by Idols to Idol Otaku. What makes this different from any other fantasy, like a war fantasy, a detective fantasy or a magical girl fantasy? Not much, I'm trying to grasp where you're going with this though. The point of my original comment is that a lot of female characters are written in anime for males, not for women's sake. I'm not trying to argue that this is a good or bad thing. It is the same for a lot of male characters in shows targeted towards females like "Free!" for example, or any Shoujo. Thats just the way the industry is. They're not trying to be accurate depictions of women, but to sell a fantasy, Just like a lot of men in certain shows aren't an accurate or realistic depiction of men. There are shows that sell the same kind of fantasy to women as well. |
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