| In a genre of anime and manga about fighting for what you believe into the point of "near" death there happens to be a very small amount of death in shounen. Or if there is death present there is also some magical factor that brings the characters back from the dead. Beware that this thread will have a lot of spoilers but I'm mainly going to be talking about the major shounens. Dragonball/Z/GT/Super: Honestly the very first time we see a death in the DragonBall franchise it is pretty shocking which was Killian in the Tien arc. But by that point we have an understanding of the Dragonballs and how they can revive people only once after this rule was stipulation the second death for Krillen had some weight to it because in the eyes of the fans he couldn't come back. But of course the rule was broken and made every death during the series a who gives a fuck type of feel because the dragon balls could just bring them back to life. One Piece: For the sear size of the cast of One Piece I believe we only have gotten l believe about 3 deaths but this isn't enough. Ace's and White Beard's death did have weight behind them but other than that I haven't encountered another death that actually mattered that made me feel like the there was an imminent threat to the characters. Also some of the villains that Luffy and crew face should have died but for some reason we keep seeing them come back over and over is quite annoying. Naruto/Shippuden: The very thing that made Naruto interesting was the fact that the life of a ninja was always in a threat, for example in the very first battle that Naruto and team 6 has with Zabuza and Haku was surprising and nail biting. But Naruto has the same problem that One Piece has how can we only have a few major characters dying in the setting that they're in? Though Jiraiya's, Asuma's, Sarutobi's, and Neji's death had impact to the viewers but how can the show repeatedly reference the past Ninja wars over and over about how bloody they were where hardly anyone survived and compare it to the current ninja war in Shippuden where only one person dies??? Also there are times where people should have died but didn't for example, all throughout the Naruto series we have been led to believe that unlocking all 8 gates guaranteed death. So during Guy's fight with Madara was really interesting to see that the threat Madara posed was worth giving his life for. But of course he didn't have to pay for the consequence of unlocking all of the gates because they gave Naruto a power up to heal people. Tl;dr I just feel like shounen anime needs to stick to the rules they present and have some type of sense of realism even though it has to do with alls types of nosensical powers. So when characters die let them stay dead, stop allowing characters to survive situations in which they are supposed to be dead. |
| Well, you're only talking about the major ones, there's a lot of other shounen with tons of death. |
 One man is no more than another, if he do no more than what another does. |
| Shingeki no Kyojin is airing right now. Problem solved? |
| this is why i prefer darker series like akame ga kill where death is an integral part of the experience |
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| You always have Akame ga Kill if you want a shounen with deaths (yes, Akame ga Kill is a shounen). Or JoJo, even though JoJo is not as bad as AgK with the question of killing characters. |
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| If that means that shounen should follow the example of Tokyo Ghoul then no thanks, I prefer the friendship power of Fairy Tail over that mess of a manga. By the way, Death Note is also shounen and it even has Death in its title. You probably meant something a bit more specific as battle shounen. |
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| Death Note, Attack On Titan, Code Geass, Akame Ga Kill and Gurren Lagann are shounen right? Also HxH, JoJo and even nardo have deaths. There are enough deaths in shounen. Maybe you should watch something else but One Piece. |
| If you meant fighting shônen nekketsu, a popular one with a large cast size suffered from many deaths: Hôshin Engi. Deaths of immortals among others (the story starting with the mission to seal them away from the mortal realm/China). Of course, the animation brought this to a minimum. You can also read interviews of animation makers who often say how hard it was to get the permission to kill someone important (in large audience series), etc... PS: currently reading Ring ni kakero who's part of this genre, and the looming death risks the characters talk about is kind of annoying when they talk about 11year old kids boxing matches. |
| If all you want is a bunch of nameless guys dying just to satisfy your need for deaths, Shingeki no Kyojin (aka Attack on Titan) is airing right now. Akame ga Kill does kill named characters but from what I've seen, they might as well have been nameless. Death Note is another one that kills a bunch of nameless people. @zumac Both Code Geass nor Gurren Lagann are anime originals, therefore not shounen. Point is, there is not point in having a bunch of deaths if it doesn't mean anything, if the character who died was nothing more than cardboard. Deaths do not define quality and should not define quality. Nor should there be someone dying every two panels to make the "risk" to the characters seem real. |
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| Thats why Hunter x Hunter is King of shounens with a great amount of deaths |
| "We could make the world better, but it's easier to just shut our eyes." ~Blackwall |
The setting of Aot fits the amount of deaths in the series but I have yet to see an important character die. zumac said: Death Note, Attack On Titan, Code Geass, Akame Ga Kill and Gurren Lagann are shounen right? Also HxH, JoJo and even nardo have deaths. There are enough deaths in shounen. Maybe you should watch something else but One Piece. Maybe you should read more than half the post or check out my profile because I've have seen all the shows you mentioned. yhunata said: Point is, there is not point in having a bunch of deaths if it doesn't mean anything, if the character who died was nothing more than cardboard. Deaths do not define quality and should not define quality. Nor should there be someone dying every two panels to make the "risk" to the characters seem real. Also this |
| Wacth/read seinen if you're looking for more realistic/mature themes. |
╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ |
is the show you are looking for. |
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Omni said: @zumac I'm not saying that I am some crazy psychopath that only wants to see people just die; what I am saying is that not a lot of shounen anime give a sense of threat to the characters which can cause it to be boring at times. And anime outside of shounen do that? |
| Shounen is really just a target audience. It doesn't mean jack **** on content, though more often you'll see there's less on complexity of plot BECAUSE it's targeted at boys and young men. Just how Shoujo is targeted towards young females. Also shounen seem to have more light-hearted stories (can't think of a better way to describe it at the moment), although I doubt that has anything to do with it being Shounen rather than just being a coincidence. |
on 
| one piece has deaths, just not many, which is good because too many deaths of main charecters lessen the impact of death in that world, to me anyways......ace and white beard died and they were pretty well fleshed out charecters |
| I think I see your point and agree that breaking the previous rules/conditions with ad hoc/convenient devices can be annoying but it is not limited only to shounen. I've had similar issues with quite a few seinen or anime original, in fighting shônen nekketsu (especially long runners like your examples) is just more evident. Sekigan said: Gruesome deaths that mean nothing and after a few they start to lack impact.zal said: If that means that shounen should follow the example of Tokyo Ghoul then no thanks, I prefer the friendship power of Fairy Tail over that mess of a manga. By the way, Death Note is also shounen and it even has Death in its title. You probably meant something a bit more specific as battle shounen. I'm curious to know what this example that Tokyo Ghoul is setting actually is... (Not picking a fight btw, just curious as a huge fan of the manga) |
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Sekigan said: Now that I think about it, Tokyo Ghoul manga didn't kill off that much people as we all thought lolzal said: If that means that shounen should follow the example of Tokyo Ghoul then no thanks, I prefer the friendship power of Fairy Tail over that mess of a manga. By the way, Death Note is also shounen and it even has Death in its title. You probably meant something a bit more specific as battle shounen. I'm curious to know what this example that Tokyo Ghoul is setting actually is... (Not picking a fight btw, just curious as a huge fan of the manga) |
| Sup... |
| Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Hunter x Hunter, and Gintama have quite a few deaths(maybe for for Jojo lol) |
| Sup... |
| First thing you should ask this question to manga/novel discussion. :P A manga with many deaths could cause a problem to popularity rankings in Japan. That's why the mangakas avoid this. To be a mangaka is a job mostly which it depends A LOT TO popularity ranking. there are some exceptions but those are rare. |
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| Doesn't bother me/make me any less invested in the story. If I want death I'll watch something else. |
SenpaiJay98 said: Sekigan said: Now that I think about it, Tokyo Ghoul manga didn't kill off that much people as we all thought lolI'm curious to know what this example that Tokyo Ghoul is setting actually is... (Not picking a fight btw, just curious as a huge fan of the manga) |
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| I think a few well-placed deaths with impact are good enough for shows like One Piece and Naruto. I don't get this obsession with death. Death doesn't make anything better, it's a storytelling tool that should only be used when it really has impact and never for the sake of it or just for being edgy and 'realistic'. Otherwise it loses all relevance and just becomes a predictable gimmick like in trash edgelord shows like Akame ga Kill. Plus, I generally don't want characters I like to die, I want them to live so I can keep having them in the shows I like. Crazy, right? This obsession with death for the sake of it just always strikes me as teenage edge. I know I wanted more people to die in fiction when I was 14-17 but I'm long past that phase. Storytelling is about so much more than just having people die. Idk, these complaints are silly to me. But if you really think that people dying makes an anime better you should check out the older battle shounen like Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star. In Saint Seiya so many people die but it barely ever adds anything to the show. Whether an enemy is defeated or dead after the fight doesn't really make any difference as long as you never see them again afterwards. Instead of focusing on killing off so many characters the show would have been better off focusing on less formulaic writing and stuff. But if you want death, watch it. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Omni said: In a genre of anime and manga about fighting for what you believe into the point of "near" death there happens to be a very small amount of death in shounen. Or if there is death present there is also some magical factor that brings the characters back from the dead. Beware that this thread will have a lot of spoilers but I'm mainly going to be talking about the major shounens. Tl;dr I just feel like shounen anime needs to stick to the rules they present and have some type of sense of realism even though it has to do with alls types of nosensical powers. So when characters die let them stay dead, stop allowing characters to survive situations in which they are supposed to be dead. Shounen battle anime and realism? Don't make me laugh. This genre inherently has nothing to do with realism. It is an awesomely unrealistic genre where people learn to walk on water in a week, make friends by beating people up and continue fighting after sustaining injuries that would have killed a small army. |
Pullman said: I think a few well-placed deaths with impact are good enough for shows like One Piece and Naruto. I don't get this obsession with death. Death doesn't make anything better, it's a storytelling tool that should only be used when it really has impact and never for the sake of it or just for being edgy and 'realistic'. Otherwise it loses all relevance and just becomes a predictable gimmick like in trash edgelord shows like Akame ga Kill. Plus, I generally don't want characters I like to die, I want them to live so I can keep having them in the shows I like. Crazy, right? This obsession with death for the sake of it just always strikes me as teenage edge. I know I wanted more people to die in fiction when I was 14-17 but I'm long past that phase. Storytelling is about so much more than just having people die. Idk, these complaints are silly to me. But if you really think that people dying makes an anime better you should check out the older battle shounen like Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star. In Saint Seiya so many people die but it barely ever adds anything to the show. Whether an enemy is defeated or dead after the fight doesn't really make any difference as long as you never see them again afterwards. Instead of focusing on killing off so many characters the show would have been better off focusing on less formulaic writing and stuff. But if you want death, watch it. Well, that's like, your opinion, man. Death does make things more realistic, in certain settings. When someone in a battle shounen anime is getting blasted with powers that could destroy half a planet and still lives on, it's not realistic. And a show that isn't realistic (at least to an extent) is just shit. Also, about your claim that people who want more deaths in battle shounen anime are 'teenagers' or 'edgelords'... I'm 26 and I still wish shows where people fight to the death... actually die sometimes. Crazy, right? Death doesn't necesarily makes a show 'edgy'. It can help making it more realistic. And when you say that you don't want characters you like to die. Well I feel obviously the same but I'd rather take realism over my personal preferences for a character. All day. |
| Je trempe mes cookies dans tes larmes. |
| You could add FT for memes tho... Also putting 3 shows and judging the entire genre. Oh well. |
| Well ... at least shingeki no kyojin and death note existe |
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| "Or if there is death present there is also some magical factor that brings the characters back from the dead." Don't blame Japan, blame US Comics. They basically just doing/following the same thing. |
| Haters always gonna hate. |
| DBZ: Literally all life on Earth and other planets is wiped out several times. One Piece: The Navy literally genocides the people of Ohara. Naruto Shippden: Tens of thousands dead during the War Arc. WTF are you talking about? |
on RVDA said: Pullman said: I think a few well-placed deaths with impact are good enough for shows like One Piece and Naruto. I don't get this obsession with death. Death doesn't make anything better, it's a storytelling tool that should only be used when it really has impact and never for the sake of it or just for being edgy and 'realistic'. Otherwise it loses all relevance and just becomes a predictable gimmick like in trash edgelord shows like Akame ga Kill. Plus, I generally don't want characters I like to die, I want them to live so I can keep having them in the shows I like. Crazy, right? This obsession with death for the sake of it just always strikes me as teenage edge. I know I wanted more people to die in fiction when I was 14-17 but I'm long past that phase. Storytelling is about so much more than just having people die. Idk, these complaints are silly to me. But if you really think that people dying makes an anime better you should check out the older battle shounen like Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star. In Saint Seiya so many people die but it barely ever adds anything to the show. Whether an enemy is defeated or dead after the fight doesn't really make any difference as long as you never see them again afterwards. Instead of focusing on killing off so many characters the show would have been better off focusing on less formulaic writing and stuff. But if you want death, watch it. Well, that's like, your opinion, man. Death does make things more realistic, in certain settings. When someone in a battle shounen anime is getting blasted with powers that could destroy half a planet and still lives on, it's not realistic. And a show that isn't realistic (at least to an extent) is just shit. Also, about your claim that people who want more deaths in battle shounen anime are 'teenagers' or 'edgelords'... I'm 26 and I still wish shows where people fight to the death... actually die sometimes. Crazy, right? Death doesn't necesarily makes a show 'edgy'. It can help making it more realistic. And when you say that you don't want characters you like to die. Well I feel obviously the same but I'd rather take realism over my personal preferences for a character. All day. Realism? Why should we bother with realism? Why should author bother with realism? The entire anime world works just like the author draws or writes. What will realism give to the show? Nothing but boredom. Reality is boring, people work all day and don't fight. And even if they fight, they just die a lot, which doesn't allow the reader to bond to characters and care about them. Face it: Realism is just an inherently bad idea. |
| Plot armor is too stronk, even the writers themselves couldn't go against it if they wanted to. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Maybe because shounen is aimed towards a younger audience? |
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RVDA said: Pullman said: I think a few well-placed deaths with impact are good enough for shows like One Piece and Naruto. I don't get this obsession with death. Death doesn't make anything better, it's a storytelling tool that should only be used when it really has impact and never for the sake of it or just for being edgy and 'realistic'. Otherwise it loses all relevance and just becomes a predictable gimmick like in trash edgelord shows like Akame ga Kill. Plus, I generally don't want characters I like to die, I want them to live so I can keep having them in the shows I like. Crazy, right? This obsession with death for the sake of it just always strikes me as teenage edge. I know I wanted more people to die in fiction when I was 14-17 but I'm long past that phase. Storytelling is about so much more than just having people die. Idk, these complaints are silly to me. But if you really think that people dying makes an anime better you should check out the older battle shounen like Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star. In Saint Seiya so many people die but it barely ever adds anything to the show. Whether an enemy is defeated or dead after the fight doesn't really make any difference as long as you never see them again afterwards. Instead of focusing on killing off so many characters the show would have been better off focusing on less formulaic writing and stuff. But if you want death, watch it. Well, that's like, your opinion, man. Death does make things more realistic, in certain settings. When someone in a battle shounen anime is getting blasted with powers that could destroy half a planet and still lives on, it's not realistic. And a show that isn't realistic (at least to an extent) is just shit. Also, about your claim that people who want more deaths in battle shounen anime are 'teenagers' or 'edgelords'... I'm 26 and I still wish shows where people fight to the death... actually die sometimes. Crazy, right? Death doesn't necesarily makes a show 'edgy'. It can help making it more realistic. And when you say that you don't want characters you like to die. Well I feel obviously the same but I'd rather take realism over my personal preferences for a character. All day. Of course it is an opinion. A much better argued opinion than OP's opinion though. He basically just has a preference for death and tries to reduce realism to exactly that - death. I try to establish how much more complex realism is than that and that anyone who ignores that complexity is unlikely to actually care about realism in itself, but only in the context of death, which is the actual thing they care about. What you described is exactly that death only for the sake of 'realism' I described. If there is no other purpose to it than that, it doesn't really add anything to the story, characters, impact. Deaths like that are just basically another form of fanservice for people who like to see Death. Akame ga Kill is a whole show based on that kind of fanservice. If you really care so much about realism, why watch shows with superpowers and all that bogus in the first place? I don't get how people can be so selective in that regard. Like Death is the only thing they care about in terms of realism. It's awfully convenient to cherry-pick when you care about realism and when not like that. It doesn't give me the impression that realism in itself is something you actually value when it's only relevant to you when it comes to death, or at least only shows up in arguments in that context. But aside from that, actually realistic shows like slice of life are often called boring. Admit it, you don't care for realism in general if you're watching shows where people blast each other with giant balls of energy while flying in the air (btw to me it is perfectly logical that people who can procure giant balls of energy that can eradicate planets are also strong enough to survive blows of similar strength without dying. That's called consistency within the setting.). Only in terms of death for some reason is realism emphasized so often. Which strikes me as more of a justification for wanting to see more death, not the underlying reason why you want to see it. Because as I said, if people cared about realism in general a million other things would come to mind first before complaining about the quantity of deaths. But it's more or less the only aspect where people continuously use 'realism' as an argument. Usually realism is the last thing most anime fans want, because reality is more boring than anime. Realism is welcome when it's more entertaining (like seeing more death and despair) but when it's not entertaining it can get the fuck out. Also we're not talking about shows with no deaths at all, but about OP (and apparently you) not being satisfied with a few very impactful deaths, but wanting people to die like flies. I can understand not being able to fully take a show serious where noone ever dies, but that's not the case in any of the shows OP complains about. It's just about seeing MORE DEATH. As if an anime were more realistic the more people die. That would make Akame ga Kill the epitome of realism (spoiler: it's not). Also whether something is realistic or not does not depend on death but on how the fights are executed. If the show shows a character being shot in the head multiple times and then he's fine again in a hospital bed, that's shitty and unexcusable writing. But if the fight is ended in a way that ensures defeat but not death, either because of the circumstances or because MC just has a personality that doesn't want to kill people so he doesn't finish them off, it's not unrealistic. Death is not the deciding factor for whether the end of a fight is realistic or not. It totally makes sense that Goku, for example, never kills his opponents. It's just not in his character. He only ever cares about competition and fighting strong opponents. He's not a killer. And lastly you'd take 'realism' (aka death, I still don't see those two as synonymous even though you use them like that as if they meant the same thing) over liking a character. Okay, that's your choice. I know the community is full of masochists so I'm not surprised people would rather see their favorite characters die than live for vague reasons like that. Personally I'd rather have them survive in a realistic way than die in a realistic way. But you made it seem like the only options are death ('realism') or having a character you like survive. That is probably the part where it becomes most obvious that you don't think about death and survival in terms of being realistically executed and woven into the story, but in terms of a duality where it's either realistic OR characters survive. And that's always gonna be a very narrow-minded outlook on things. And that's my point. Threads like this are simplifying the matter way too much. Reducing whole shows to the amount of death in them without taking into account the context, the personality of the characters, the nature of conflicts etc.. People voicing these complaints usualy don't care about realism in any other sense too, at least not that I can tell from their posts (and I'd be willing to bet they even abhor it as being boring in a lot of other contexts). And they are fixated on DEATH being the only or primary reason why anything is realistic or not, never talking about any of the more important aspects that I elaborated on above. It shows a clear fixation on death, not realism. More death = more realism. Like it was quantifiable that 1 more death in a show = one more point on the 'realism' scale. But numbers have nothing to do with realism. But to some people the presence of death is not enough (see OP). It needs to come in huge quantities too, otherwise it's not 'realistic enough'. So yeah, the fixation is definitely on 'death' not on 'realism' here. Realism is just a convenient way of arguing in favor of wanting to see more death. It really isn't half as relevant for how realistic something is as people like OP and you make it out to be. You can criticize individual scenes/episodes for having a shitty execution and baiting viewers to think someone was dead and then he magically comes back. But criticzing a show solely based on the amount of deaths is not rational. Like anyone who expects Luffy to actually kill the opponents he defeats must have never watched the series because that just isn't One Piece, isn't Luffy. Asking for that to happen is actually asking for the opposite of realism, for characters to break character just so you can see more DEATH. That's why generalized criticism that only focuses on the amount of death you see in a show is silly and stupid by default and just screams 'I want to see more edge and death' to me instead of 'I care about realism'. Caring, really caring about realism looks different in my experience. Reality is way more complicated than mainly hinging on how many people die. |
AlcoholicideApr 10, 2017 12:41 PM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Omni said: In a genre of anime and manga about fighting for what you believe into the point of "near" death there happens to be a very small amount of death in shounen. Or if there is death present there is also some magical factor that brings the characters back from the dead. Beware that this thread will have a lot of spoilers but I'm mainly going to be talking about the major shounens. Dragonball/Z/GT/Super: Honestly the very first time we see a death in the DragonBall franchise it is pretty shocking which was Killian in the Tien arc. But by that point we have an understanding of the Dragonballs and how they can revive people only once after this rule was stipulation the second death for Krillen had some weight to it because in the eyes of the fans he couldn't come back. But of course the rule was broken and made every death during the series a who gives a fuck type of feel because the dragon balls could just bring them back to life. One Piece: For the sear size of the cast of One Piece I believe we only have gotten l believe about 3 deaths but this isn't enough. Ace's and White Beard's death did have weight behind them but other than that I haven't encountered another death that actually mattered that made me feel like the there was an imminent threat to the characters. Also some of the villains that Luffy and crew face should have died but for some reason we keep seeing them come back over and over is quite annoying. Naruto/Shippuden: The very thing that made Naruto interesting was the fact that the life of a ninja was always in a threat, for example in the very first battle that Naruto and team 6 has with Zabuza and Haku was surprising and nail biting. But Naruto has the same problem that One Piece has how can we only have a few major characters dying in the setting that they're in? Though Jiraiya's, Asuma's, Sarutobi's, and Neji's death had impact to the viewers but how can the show repeatedly reference the past Ninja wars over and over about how bloody they were where hardly anyone survived and compare it to the current ninja war in Shippuden where only one person dies??? Also there are times where people should have died but didn't for example, all throughout the Naruto series we have been led to believe that unlocking all 8 gates guaranteed death. So during Guy's fight with Madara was really interesting to see that the threat Madara posed was worth giving his life for. But of course he didn't have to pay for the consequence of unlocking all of the gates because they gave Naruto a power up to heal people. Tl;dr I just feel like shounen anime needs to stick to the rules they present and have some type of sense of realism even though it has to do with alls types of nosensical powers. So when characters die let them stay dead, stop allowing characters to survive situations in which they are supposed to be dead. Dragon Ball Z is not supposed to be a dark show. Haven't watched One Piece And Jiraiya death was probably the most heartbreaking death for me in an anime and you forgot a lot of people who died in the War. Obito , Inoichi , Choza , Shikaku. Not in the war but Itachi , that was like seriously sad. I saw on news that some kid suicided over that. |
AnjuRattyApr 10, 2017 12:42 PM
| "In this world, wherever there is light – there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exists, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars, and hatred is born to protect love." -Madara Uchiha  |
| Hokuto no Ken has plenty of honorable deaths |
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| I'm honestly saying this with no animosity whatsoever, but I believe neither @Pullman nor @Flannan understand what realism means. Case in point? The fact that you guys come up with the ludicrous claim that "Fantasy/superpowers shows don't need realism." That's not true. Realism does not imply that what is depicted in the show actually really exist. Ofc rasengans and gomu-gomus and kamehamehas don't actualy exist. No shit. Realism on the other hand does imply that the events occuring within the setting of a show make sense, at least to a certain extent. E.g. Say a show has the following premises: > Character A's super laser beam can destroy a mountain. > Character B's body is weaker than a mountain. Given those premises it'd be expected that Character B would die if hit by a laser beam blast. And that's what I'm talkig about. Realism means that a show ought to unfold in respect to the premises it itself has estabished. Which I don't think most shounen battle anime (at least, the ones I did watch, obviously) do, hence why I'd tend to agree with the OP. |
| Je trempe mes cookies dans tes larmes. |
| Modern shounen anime tries to be too tame these days. Old Shounen anime and manga like Devilman, Jojo (before it was Seinen), Fist of the North, Black Jack, The Guyver (before it was Seinen) and many others was not scared to do bloody death scenes |
| I wouldn't say deaths per se are a necessity, but when the absence of deaths is merely a direct result of plot armour then it is a problem, because plot armour most certainly lowers credibility/realism in a show. As for how it affects long-running battle shounen is not a huge deal to me because I generally don't like series like that anyway but having a series several hundreds of episodes long where the main cast are supposedly always in perilous situations yet they somehow someway always turn out unscathed sounds a bit too implausible to me |
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Nico- said: i kno rite more ppl dieing iz a sing of matrutiy n dpth@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
RVDA said: I'm honestly saying this with no animosity whatsoever, but I believe neither @Pullman nor @Flannan understand what realism means. Case in point? The fact that you guys come up with the ludicrous claim that "Fantasy/superpowers shows don't need realism." That's not true. Realism does not imply that what is depicted in the show actually really exist. Ofc rasengans and gomu-gomus and kamehamehas don't actualy exist. No shit. Realism on the other hand does imply that the events occuring within the setting of a show make sense, at least to a certain extent. E.g. Say a show has the following premises: > Character A's super laser beam can destroy a mountain. > Character B's body is weaker than a mountain. Given those premises it'd be expected that Character B would die if hit by a laser beam blast. And that's what I'm talkig about. Realism means that a show ought to unfold in respect to the premises it itself has estabished. Which I don't think most shounen battle anime (at least, the ones I did watch, obviously) do, hence why I'd tend to agree with the OP. Are you sure you know what realism means? http://www.dictionary.com/browse/realism https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/realism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/realism http://www.dictionary.com/browse/realistic https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/realistic What you mean is more like consistency/coherency within the setting and not contradicting itself. Which doesn't need realism, when the setting isn't realistic. But the actual term realism has a clearly definied meaning that is always related to our reality. That's why it has the same etymological root. The two terms reality (as in non-fiction) and realism are inherently connected. Don't blame us for not knowing what words mean. And my arguments remain the same when talking about consistency so not sure what the point of your semantic diversion is. What matters is the execution and the context. If the MC is a character that would never kill an opponent, complaining that his enemies surviving is inconsistent with the writing of the show is just plain wrong. Complaining about healing powers when they are part of the show, is not complaining about a lack of consistency, but merely about a lack of death for the sake of it. And in shows where death is clearly present at various times and has hit very important characters in the past, you can't complain that there isn't a sense of urgency just because the death toll is not high enough to satisfy your subjective feeling of 'realism' (or consistency). Shows are inconsistent if they have a complete absence of death while constantly emphasizing that there is a threat of it. When they show scenes where characters obviously die, just to bring them back without a proper explanation 2 episodes later. You can't criticize a show's general consistency merely based on the quantity of deaths. That is just stupid and clearly shows missing the point of what either realism or consistency are about. As for your example, I've never seen a show clearly state 'this body is weaker than a mountain'. A lot of bodies in battle shounen just aren't weaker than a mountain. Also the ki energy beams or whatever might have a different impact on organic and non-organic matter. Just saying, it's always a matter if interpretation and if you're set to interpret something as inconsistent it's not hard to do so, and vice versa. Of course cou can criticize individual scenes for being badly executed and coming off as inconsistent or forced. That's my whole point this whole time. You SHOULD criticize like that. Focus on actual scenes and how they were executed or you were baited to think that death was an option at the time when it wasn't. But you should not criticize simply based on not being satisfied with the number of deaths in a show. Reducing all of this to just that clearly shows an obsession with death more than caring about 'realism' or even consistency. When you think just stating that 'only 3 or so important characters actually died' is a criticism in itself, you're clearly missing the point. And that was more or less what OP did. The 'rules that these shounen anime need to stick to' are mostly just what viewers like OP think they should be, not how they actually are. IN DB Death is just another part of life as established by all the time we spent with people in the afterlife, chilling and doing training. If you expect anything else that's in your head, but not 'the rules the show established'. The existence of more than one version of the dragonballs is not inconsistent with the in-universe writing either. I can say similar things about OPs complaint that Luffy's enemies survive. I would never expect Luffy to go for the kill. That would NOT be consistent writing. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Longer series would run out of characters :^) |
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