Digimon Adventure: Episode 13 Discussion

holdingnothing said:
Funbeemon's voice actress sounds so familiar, but didn't get credited by name, probably just under the limit of lines, but not to the point of getting credit (because it's not the main 6)

Ventus_S said:
Man, the lack of stake and lack of character development in this reboot is making all those shinka so very pointless.
The shinka in this episode got to be the most pointless one thus far, even worse than Garurumon Shinka back in episode 11..

It makes me very sad and disappointed because the Garudamon's shinka and Sora's character arc is so good in the original...
Do you know what is Garudamon's first shinka used to fight against in the original for? Vampiromon ffs. Such iconic and impactful moment..

I have to say , this reboot bores me...
Jesus, I remember having so much fun rewatching the old Digmon Adventure like 2 years ago even as an adult because the plot and characters are so much more interesting.
I also have so much fun watching Digimon Universe App monster recently.
The characterization, the plot, the shinka are far superior and relatable.
Hack, even Digimon Hunter Tagiru (the one people shit on the most) are far more entertaining to watch than this..


Biggest problem of this reboot -> characters are static, character dynamic and conflict are near null (or resolved in 2 mins), no stake, villains are one episode filler with no memorable value.

AntonKutovoi said:


It's Rie Kugimiya and she was credited...

holdingnothing said:

It's Rie Kugimiya and she was credited...

Renkini said:
...

Sakarii said:
It's a cold day in hell and I'm the black sheep going "bah, bah" at that this was actually a good SORA episode. The first I ever seen. Bravo, reboot.

This episode does (in its halfhearted way it does everything) what I said in my Adventure review: Have Sora be the one who care more about the digimon than the others to represent her Crest. Plus, there's also the odd trait that Adventure introduced way too late: this sense of responsibility and the pressure of having to do something. Probably won't go anywhere, but hey, there it is.

In the terms of Sora, who was awful in Adventure, this is a step up.

Beyond that...
-CannonBeemon be looking like a Pokemon. Don't lie and say you didn't see it.

-Piyomon's Chou Shika is okay. At least it wasn't lifted directly off Adventure.

-If Gomamon could break out of the cell, why didn't he do it in the first place??

-I'm in utter shock that they kept Taichi's innermost desire to whack technology. I thought for sure they'd ignore it. Heck, Taichi had more personality here since ep 8.

-Yamato and Jyou are still good. I'm liking how super calm Yamato is, lol, compared to his original where he doesn't give any plans beyond "the opposite of Taichi".

-Funny thing about this ep is that Sora outshines Piyomon still. Considering this reboot is focusing heavily on the partner digimon, there's a surprisingly lack of Piyomon getting a character. Are they going to have her as the worst partner digimon again? Even better is that when the human doesn't have much depth, you can see the cons of the "digimon mirror their humans" idea.

-I wonder what the excuse for the tablet freezing is gonna be since they ignored the whole bit in the cave. (Speaking of which, how is Koushiro getting his maps?)

-Weregarurumon somehow got a better evolve animation than he did in his own ep, lol. I would hope that they'll fix these crappy animations... but it's Toei and I'd be a fool to place any hope on them.

Ventus_S said:
Animation is the last thing you can ask from them since they often animate 50+ episodes without a break, with only 1~3 key animators per episode. (For reference, series like RE:Zero / SAO often have 40+ animators in the ED credit per episode).

So yeah, it's not like they have the budget/ resources/ and supporters from fans compare to big IP like REZero or SAO.

The only Digimon Series that got good animation is Appmon because they utilize CGI models for the combat. You can argue those CGI evolution is ugly, but they do have vastly superior combat animation thanks to that.

Sakarii said:


Sounds like Toei needs to hire more animators then. Why do I get the feeling they don't have more because they give them shit wages? I'm not letting them off the hook. Not without a better reason than simply them not having more animators.

Toei have loads of big and historic IPs, Digimon is but one of them. To say they can't get the budget/resources/supporters for an Adventure reboot, the one season that's so well loved in Japan it allowed tri to be a success, is a damn lie. Hell, DBS AND SMC proved it doesn't have anything to do with that, but Toei being greedy a-holes trying to do things cheap and not giving animators time do make quality animation. Something is going on at Toei (from the suits, most likely) because they have been utter shit at doing good by their old IPs.

I dunno about vastly superior. Maybe better than the past seasons, certainly better than pre-Savers, but that's not a very high line to cross. lol DA: has good combat animation, the problem, imo, is that they don't have time to devote to doing it well every episode, instead it's every other episode or every 3 episodes that's top tier, which is kinda the norm for Toei. Maybe they should have used that Corona-chan break to get ahead and produce some good work instead of this rushing to get back on schedule it feels like they're doing.

Ventus_S said:
I mean yeah, if you animate a serie with 50+ episodes without a break, the animation quality will surely drop regardless.
That's why big IP usually animate at max 26, and mostly just 13 ep at a time.
The whole reason why there's so few animators per episode is because they have to divide the resources like that in order to keep up with this many episodes in short time frame.
Even if you pay them more , animators are people too and there's only so much they can do in limited time frame.

One Piece, Boruto , and many long running series have unstable animation too.
One Piece have lots of recap and static image of people staring at each for couple seconds just to buy time because they try to adapt the series without break. They only have good animation on key fights.


At least the art hasn't fluctuate much for all characters, meaning the production quality is actually not that bad. (Many seasonal anime can't even keep up with its artstyle every episodes despite they only have 13 episodes.)
Digimon Adventure reboot animation is not great, but at least the artstyle is consistent throughout.
The biggest problem lies elsewhere, mainly the plot , the characters, and how unfun they structure the story so far.

Also yes, Digimon IP was quite big, but only in the past really. Nowadays their reputation and followers are nowhere close to series like RE:Zero, SAO, Demon Slayer, One Piece, Pokemon, etc. And they're only popular in Japan too, with all the digivice/ figurine/ game sales. They're very unpopular in the west now.
Mal and reddit proves it already. No-one watches it, no-one talks about it.

Sakarii said:



That's certainly true. Only really Adventure seems to make green; unlike older IPs, Digimon's constant changing of everything per season is probably their biggest weakness when it comes to popularity. Pokemon gets shit on for not getting rid of Satoshi, but money doesn't lie.

Ventus_S said:
I am actually on the unpopular opinion side.
I actually think that changing the story direction/ mechanic/casts every season is what makes Digimon more appealing to me compare to Pokemon, which the overall tone and theme never changes , and Satoshi's personality keeps getting reset every season. Pokemon completely makes me lost interest.

Ofc sometimes the direction change of certain seasons do not fit my taste, however, often times, the direction change/ mcs change is what incentivize me to come back to Digimon. If they make every single Digimon IP exactly like Digimon Adventure in terms story format, and the casts never changes, I think I'd probably lost interest in Digimon too.
It is because each series telling an independent story , focusing on different theme / characters , seeing how these casts develop, how they resolve each crisis differently that drawn me into watching Digimon.

-Elevate- said:
if you dont like this anime so far just dont watch it lmao

just keep rewatching that instead of forcing yourself to watch an episode every week of an anime you dont like

StormxNightmare said:
I actually kinda liked the episode - I didn't love it, but it was fine.
I like seeing Yamato and Sora working together & I obviously like Sora taking the spotlight (she's my favorite after all).
Garudamon literally decapitating CannonBeemon also kinda made up for the lackluster buildup to its evolution. It was really nice to see Birdramon in action too, cause she hasn't had that much screen time until now.
I also appreciated the little reference to the original, when Tai wants to fix Izzys tablet by punching it :)

I am still underwhelmed by the character development and the way they're getting their perfect levels, cause the crests really don't seem to mean anything in this reboot (Lilimon appeared cause of anger/sorrow & Garudamon cause of friendship) tho.
But these last two episodes were definitly more enjoyable for me.

Sakarii said:

-Piyomon's Chou Shika is okay. At least it wasn't lifted directly off Adventure.

Hanaki_Neko said:
I actually think that they give Garudamon's evolution sequence in the original to Birdramon in this reboot. There are so many similarities, wall of flame covering the digimon, legs and head show up from the flame etc... That's why Garudamon didn't have a proper evolve scene. I doubt Garudamon will get a rather small flashy evolve scene next ep but let's see shall we

Sakarii said:


Just checked and yeah you're right on the similarities. Tbh, if you didn't point it out I wouldn't have noticed, good eye. I think it's different (kinda in a bad way since the evolution is a bit lackluster in the reboot, haha) enough that it seems more homage rather copy and paste. I doubt Garudamon'll get one too since it's similar to Taichi/Yamato's, just without the extra time and details. Mimi's was straight redraw from Adventure, lmao, so hers has more of chance to changing since it's gonna stick out if they keep it. But, yeah we'll see in, what 2 episodes? It'll be Jyou's turn then.

Ventus_S said:
I'd just point out the fundamental problem of the reboot thus far, the story structure is just too boring.

The main problem of the reboot is not just the lack of character progression, but the fundamental flaw of story structure.

So far ever since episode 4 the plot has go on like this for almost every single episodes:

1. They walk around, chat like 2 minutes, and then a random enemy shows up (boring villain that'd get defeated in the same episode).
2. They were forced to retreat a little because they got ambushed or whatever
3. They discuss how to get pass/ defeat that Digimon.
4. They got themselves into some trouble again during the rematch (not really because it feels very forced/ artificial)
5. One guy shinka and defeat the enemy in one blow
6. They laughed and move on forward.

EVERY SINGLE EPISODE after ep4, NO SEQUENCE CHANGE AT ALL , for up to ep13 already!
This is bad story telling!

Hanaki_Neko said:


I think when comparing to Lilymon evolution in the reboot, which is totally a copy-paste (and somehow they make it worse than the original imo), calling Garudamon's sequence a homage would be reasonable. But it would be better if there's something new and original, and maybe include some tiny details . Like they make a totally new sequence for Garudamon and putting tiny details for Birdamon for reference purpose. At least that is how i understand homage :/.

But then, it's pretty odd because the Champion debut of all Digimons in the reboot tended to be short and simple. The digimon being covered with respective color and codes and changing their shape. I mean, even Greymon's transformation in his debut around ep 3 (or 4, i don't remember) was very simple. He got his flashy sequence in the next episode. The only exception is Yamato, though I guess it's because in this reboot Garurumon appeared before Gabumon so there's no point in making a short introduction :/. However, in its debut, Birdamon got a semi-sequence that is likely a reference to the evolution sequence of Garudamon in the original. On the contrary, Garudamon evolution in this episode felt like the reboot's Champion stage evolution. I don't know if there's any meaning or it's just me look into too much lol.

Even though it's a copy and paste, Lilymoon evolution is currently the flashiest sequence (not counting Taichi and Yamato). Next ep will be AtlurKabuterimon's debut. I wonder if the reboot gonna keep Lilymon sequence if they decide to let Palmon helps out Koushiro and Tentomon. If they do then I have tiny hope for Garudamon's evolution sequence appearing regularly, and maybe Zudomon's as well in the future. If Lilymon evolves off-screen then no hope lol.



The weirdest thing is that this format should be for filler episode. But there's evolution in a filler episode, and evolution should be a big event, should be a main episode. Like i don't know how to feel about it. Digimon transformation episode should not feel like a filler episode that you want to skip :/

Ventus_S said:
See this sequence of event difference and having REAL STAKE in the old version.


New version , watching every episodes feel like a chore, and like you said, feels like filler which I want to skip...


Heck, even 02/ 03 / 04 / 07 bother to have sequence of event difference in every few episodes so you don't feel burned out.
The reboot so far feels extremely lazy when it comes to storytelling.

Hanaki_Neko said:
I think when comparing to Lilymon evolution in the reboot, which is totally a copy-paste (and somehow they make it worse than the original imo), calling Garudamon's sequence a homage would be reasonable. But it would be better if there's something new and original, and maybe include some tiny details . Like they make a totally new sequence for Garudamon and putting tiny details for Birdamon for reference purpose. At least that is how i understand homage :/.

But then, it's pretty odd because the Champion debut of all Digimons in the reboot tended to be short and simple. The digimon being covered with respective color and codes and changing their shape. I mean, even Greymon's transformation in his debut around ep 3 (or 4, i don't remember) was very simple. He got his flashy sequence in the next episode. The only exception is Yamato, though I guess it's because in this reboot Garurumon appeared before Gabumon so there's no point in making a short introduction :/. However, in its debut, Birdamon got a semi-sequence that is likely a reference to the evolution sequence of Garudamon in the original. On the contrary, Garudamon evolution in this episode felt like the reboot's Champion stage evolution. I don't know if there's any meaning or it's just me look into too much lol.

Even though it's a copy and paste, Lilymoon evolution is currently the flashiest sequence (not counting Taichi and Yamato). Next ep will be AtlurKabuterimon's debut. I wonder if the reboot gonna keep Lilymon sequence if they decide to let Palmon helps out Koushiro and Tentomon. If they do then I have tiny hope for Garudamon's evolution sequence appearing regularly, and maybe Zudomon's as well in the future. If Lilymon evolves off-screen then no hope lol.

Hanaki_Neko said:
However, the evolution sequence continues to be underwhelmed. Even with Sora, who is my favorite, I can't be excited or happy. There's no tension, no excitement. Even the kid's reaction to their digimon's evolution is disappointing. And I'm happy that I'm not the only one who notice that Garudamon evolved in this ep had to do with "Friendship" more than "Love". Same goes with Lilymon's evolution being connected more to "Anger/Sorrow" rather than "Purity or Sincerity". In some way, it feels like an opposite to what the kids' crests suppose to represent. Up till now, the evolution that is closest to the crest's meaning is Gabumon. Idk but even with Taichi, I can't feel that MetalGreymon evolved due to "Courage". It felt a bit recklessness, revenge but maybe that just me.

Sakarii said:


I do agree all the evolution sequences should be new and original, but it seems like they're having trouble coming up with 4+ new ones, lol. I'm not quite sure why they gave the Adventure homage to Birdamon instead, tbh; it can't be because they're worried about being too similar to Adventure's... There does seem to be a preferential treatment to the Adults form. And after the newest ep, I think Garudamon's is intentional since Atlur Kabuterimon is similar. Once we get Jyou's we'll know for sure, though.
I am starting to think they're trying to avoid the overuse of transformation stock footage that Digimon always kinda had a problem with. But only because they don't have that filler they're replaced it with the filler at the beginning and long recaps. So, pointless but that it seems like they're doing. Maybe they're saving all the sequences for the Ultimates?

Funny you say that. They didn't give us anything with Lillymon, haha. Back to waiting for another 2 episodes!

vxnderground said:


I actually quite like Mimi in this reboot. When I rewatched Adventure last year I was kind of put off by how almost "Mean Girl" she was compared to how I remembered her as a kid. This time they rewrote her to be less mean girl and more privileged/airheaded (like in her debut where she was the Queen of all the Tanemon).

And while I agree that the Perfect/Ultimate levels do feel undeserved, Mimi's crest was never really translated properly. Mimi's crest is 純真 which translates into "innocence" rather than "purity" in the few dictionaries I've checked. So it makes more sense when her development is tied to moments where she has to confront the way her privilege sheltered her from the world (i.e. Palmon straight up almost dying while fighting Ogremon; and now Guardromon dying). It seems pretty fair that someone her age from the upper class has probably been sheltered from anything bad - especially death.

But that aside, I used CannonBeemon a bit in that mobile game before ReArise and I was shocked by 1) how massive it was and 2) that Waspmon were living inside of it. That's kind of gross...

Ventus_S said:


See this sequence of event difference and having REAL STAKE in the old version.


New version , watching every episodes feel like a chore, and like you said, feels like filler which I want to skip...


Heck, even 02/ 03 / 04 / 07 bother to have sequence of event difference in every few episodes so you don't feel burned out.
The reboot so far feels extremely lazy when it comes to storytelling.

Hanaki_Neko said:
I read some comments from somewhere said that due to the covid hiatus, the studio had to rush Birdramon's transformation sequence. That's why Piyomon is the only one who doesn't covere in color and change shape like the rest. I don't know if this is true or not but yeah, just a thought. Now that we know AlturKabuterimon is similar, I guess Zudomon will be the same as well.

Saving all the budget for the Megas is my only reason to keep watching. Tri had disappointed me with the evolution sequence so much that I didn't think anything could possibly disappoint me more. I guess I spoke too soon lol. I was disheartened when I knew that the reboot is not going to emphasize the evolution sequence anymore. I would accept the exclusion of the evolution sequence if the story is good but...............:/ IMO the digimon evolution marks the growth of character. It should be something memorable. It's ok to cut short once in a while, when the evolution for certain digimons is not the highlight, but at least the debut evolution should be exciting. IDK, that's just my thought. I can't believe the best evolution sequences I have seen for Adventure is from the 2013 PSP game. There were some copy-paste, similarities between Ultimate and Mega stages but at least there were efforts, and it was sth that actually feel meaningful.

As for Lilymon, I guess we'll have to see if the reboot ever going to give her anything new to do. They gave her a redraw evolution last episode and didn't show her up in the next ep to help out lol. If WereGarurumon appears but not Garudamon in Zudomon's debut episode, I think it's safe to say that even in the background supporting, the others 4+ don't get to reach Ultimate

Ventus_S said:


Animation is the last thing you can ask from them since they often animate 50+ episodes without a break, with only 1~3 key animators per episode. (For reference, series like RE:Zero / SAO often have 40+ animators in the ED credit per episode).

So yeah, it's not like they have the budget/ resources/ and supporters from fans compare to big IP like REZero or SAO.

The only Digimon Series that got good animation is Appmon because they utilize CGI models for the combat. You can argue those CGI evolution is ugly, but they do have vastly superior combat animation thanks to that.

Sakarii said:


Yeah, I understand. The bit about paying them is me wondering why they don't have more animators because really, if they have only a few, they need more time. I could understand the costs then but since they don't have even that, where the heck is all the money? And where is it going to?
What I didn't properly convey was that I don't generally have a problem with animation (unless it's obviously terrible), but rather how they decide who gets what episode. It's been a pet peeve with the tendency to give important eps to the lower quality animators and less important eps to the higher quality ones. Yamato's eps should be just as important as Taichi's and thus should be on the same level of quality. At least, they didn't do what Tamers did and reuse the crappy version and made a better one to reuse. Thank the heavens for that!

I'm all for Toei's anime going multiple cours instead of one long running series, ngl. But, yeah, agreed. Since Appmon, they've been good at keeping the artstyle consistent which is great since it could have easily made the fight scenes look more like trash than they do.
Haha, yeah, I guess that actually answers my question: the money that's left is going to the animation at the cost of the pacing (then again, terrible pacing is Digimon's thing) and characters. Such a shame, they could have just remade Adventure if all they wanted was to make awesome fight scenes.

That's certainly true. Only really Adventure seems to make green; unlike older IPs, Digimon's constant changing of everything per season is probably their biggest weakness when it comes to popularity. Pokemon gets shit on for not getting rid of Satoshi, but money doesn't lie.
Oh, it is? I had thought maybe Reddit would be talking about it... Is it because it's another Adventure? I remember hearing fans were annoyed by more Adventure rather than other seasons.

todd2580 said:
Studio Gallop is helping toei with digimon so they actually hired animators but the time is limited for more than a 6 cour series and i know why toei don't want it to be delayed farther than that so they won't lose money from waiting i mean waiting so much can cost money and there was already a month delay.

and you have to accept that some episodes will have some dip in quality because of the pandemic's factors.

Sakarii said:
Ihow is Koushiro getting his maps?).