Shoujo☆Kageki Revue Starlight Episode 9 Discussion

CHC said:
From what I have heard this show is pretty short of manpower (though it's probably not short of money).

Tarotist said:

Well we have one more audition to go, and the only one among the top four who we have yet to learn about is Claudine. So considering that Karen and Claudine are tied for 3rd, next episode has to be Claudine's time to shine!

Revvie-chan said:
I think the show doesn't have much money on it, either. Bcs usually:
- more money = more power to hire personnel (although it's not the only variable in play. Scheduling and length of project from planning to execution play a big part, too.)

It works on a convergent multi-dimensional system: the interrelated multi-dimension theory used in quantum physics, often seen in science fiction that involves traversing between worlds and dimension: time travel, time loop, etc.

anirudhtsuki said:
Is it me or was this episode not as polished as the rest? The scenes looked low budget. In other series I would not bat an eye. But it was so good to see you now.

sXeblues said:
I can’t believe how bland and borderline boring this series has become for me... Even in spite of finally learning how the story of the play ‘Starlight’ is supposed to play out — which is obviously meant to telegraph where the plot of the show itself, is going. But, I just don’t care about any of it, anymore. Ever since that timeloop episode, whatever interest and fascination I had for this show and its characters, has now faltered. And continuing to watch it, just feels like going through the motions. Especially thanks to all of the cliches and level of predictability of the plot, which really doesn’t help. But, even the characters themselves; They lack any sort of legitimate personality or characterization, because none of them has actually been in focus for long enough, or been shown doing anything other than obsessing over this performance, to feel resonating. Whatever depth of character they’ve tried to shoehorn in, has been at a hummingbird’s pace. Like ADHD playing out in real time, as a plot. So that, you barely get to know or care about any of them, at all. And it’s all just made kinda ‘meh’, for it.

CHC said:



My point is that the fight happens in the show works like the dance in a ballet. Surely if you insist, you can explain the dance in a ballet by constructing theories about it, say, characters in the story dance to resolve conflicts because they are actually living in a parallel universe in which social norms and physical laws are different than ours. But such explanation is not necessary nor accepting such theories would add anything to the work. The point is to see art as art, not necessarily as some sort of alternative reality. The appropriate question to ask is not "did that defy physics?" or "was it logical that Hikari became so powerful all of a sudden?" The kind of questions that really matters to the show is something like "has this fight scene successfully expressed character's emotion/strengthened the themes/been aesthetically captivating?"

Jacob194 said:
Asking to show them not obsess about starlight is like asking to show BNHA's characters not obsess about the concept of heroes. They choose to enter this school of great history of performances/heroes and dedicated their lives to it cause they love it. This is what the anime is about, if you can't tolerate it then you're better of dropping the anime.

Ep 7's timeloop made ppl return to the anime, because they thought they finally revealed the plot but soon they'll drop it again, why because they didn't know that the timeloop wasn't the plot but a means to delve into Banana's character and show love and obsess over their performance, have you never had the thought of wanting to re-live something like it was the first time? I think everyone had thought that at some point, if we had the chance to do so then we prolly
would have done it.

When an anime becomes dull to you, you won't be able to enjoy it again whatever the anime throws at you, and you'll be nitpicking about every line even tho you'd usually not give it a second thought, usually I just drop anime when it gets to that point, maybe this anime is just not for you.

sXeblues said:


I will see it through to its completion... Because, unless I am really, truly finding a series unlikable, or I can’t find a way to jive with it, I don’t usually like to cut it off mid-stream. With that being said, I only ever get so passionate in my criticism when I feel that a series was actually very good. And had, at some point, won me over. Excited me. Drew me to its characters, etc. And then, inevitably, let me down. That’s kind of where I’m at now, with this show. I was really liking it. I was somewhat engaged with a few of the characters, on an admittedly limited basis, but hopeful that there would be further development of them, to sink my teeth into.

And then episode 7 happened... Which, I understood to be merely a stepping stone. And not the grand, overarching reveal that you describe some people saw it as. But, to me, it was a nonsensical and unnecessary addition to a plot I was otherwise mostly engaged with. As an almost lifelong fan of the time travel genre in science fiction, it immediately revealed to me just how inept and struggling with its own intriguing character drama, it was. And, that’s not to say that it wasn’t without its strange and otherworldly aspects, already. But, it ripped the carpet right out from under me, and felt like such a sophmoric move at a twist, strictly for the purposes of shock and awing the audience.

The biggest crime in that being, again, that it wasn’t needed. Nana’s wanting to recapture her former glory did not have to be made literal. They did not have to throw out the rule book by adding in an actual timeloop, wherein she could explicitly relive that former glory. And, in doing so, it undermined reality — because that’s not something any of the rest of us can ever actually achieve. What would’ve been much more relatable, is what we as human beings actually experience: The pining, wishing, hoping, dreaming, imagining of that recapturing of our former glories. The phrase, ‘You should never rest on your laurels’ was invented by the sheer predominance we have as a species to wistfully remain tied to our pasts.

And so, by turning the plot just so, making that recycling of time legitimized, and in some ways, making Nana an antagonist, it was, to me, a real let down. And it only could have become so big of one, because of its earlier climbing up to an extraordinary level of enjoyment for me, prior to that.

CHC said:
If the show had gone into a different direction and had made Oba Nana some sort of overpower final boss who can only be defeated in the last episode in Gurren Lagann style, the thematic coherence of the show would have completely fallen part, as the main theme of "competition to the top" would give way to "regaining the future".

Revvie-chan said:
Fun fact is: what you said here is exactly the plot in these 3 episodes. and the end conclusion is that, too: that it doesn't have to be literal. That "You should never rest on your laurels." And that "You could always make new memories."

Nana just took 3 episodes and countless of loops to realize that.
Bcs, if you notice, she never had real friends and real emotional involvement before getting into the school. (episode 9, the scene where she sat alone in an empty classroom with just a heater, and the flashback dialogue that accompanies it.)
It's called a character progression. Same way with people, each character takes their own journey, with different length and time needed, to get to a conclusion.

Don't want to be ad-hominem, but in your case:
You definitely miss what people have been saying to you over and over again: it's character-driven.
Yes, they could have integrated it better to the big plot. But being character-driven, we should still not forget that the focus of this arc, which is Nana.
So it's right for the character Daiba Nana to travel through the plot. In her case: from a good classmate who's being good just for the sake of being polite, to an antagonist Nana who's not a background character, but someone who has wishes and motives for her action, to Daiba Nana, a mere young teenage girl who finally realizes that her friends will always love her for who she is.
In character-driven plot, the journey matters. Sure the progression from how she was to how she is is also looked, but the journey matters more.

Also these plots you said you've been enjoying: about Mahiru, about Futaba & Kaoruko, they're also character-driven, and they're even not integrated to the big plot as good as Nana's arc is integrated.
The main plot of Karen & Hikari had gone stuck since the end of episode 4, and only started to move on episode 8 (with the help of Nana's timeloop.)
But that's also when they started to cover each character and give them their own arcs, their own plots. Episode 5 was Mahiru's episode. 6 was Futaba & Kaoruko's. 7 was Nana's.
So... if you want to criticize, you should start from episode 5, and not now when they finally tried to move the big plot forward again.


ps.: You know, reading your arguments, I think you just don't feel right with having a girl as good as Nana turned into an antagonist.
Science fiction often (although not all of them) have "absolute bad" antagonist, in which Nana is not.

ps.1: and oh yes. We can't go deeper. Not enough time. The bane of every character-driven anime with lots of characters but only 12/13 episodes in it.

Glayce said:


While I'm not too fussed about them choosing this direction rather than the latter, I honestly think they shouldn't have bothered with the plotline. It may just be me but having a timeloop in a story doesn't seem like a small storybeat but rather something of importance and to brush past it in just 3 episodes seems like it honestly wasn't worth it. They could've explored Nana's charcter in a different way then they did, without antagonising her (she's not too great a villan anyway especially when everyone is still cool with her outside battle lol) and in a more satisfying way. Not to mention it could've given the other characters, such as Claudine and Tendou more time to develop their own charcters and keep to the established storyline (while not making people who started watching again have a reason to drop it for a second time haha).

In my opinion, they should've gone all for timeloops or no timeloops at all.

sXeblues said:

Is one of my issues that a ‘good girl’ character like Nana was turned into an antagonist? Partly, yes. I admit that I had high hopes for her character. Not that I can explicitly express why that is the case. But yes, it’s true; I didn’t really care for her character turn. However, it was not at all made disappointing by the sheer virtue of that being the direction they decided to take her character in. It was the way in which they decided to do so; Again, the timeloop.

Even if what I described in my earlier post was the same outcome for her character that they would eventually arrive at, the simple fact — as I see it — is that they took it in an entirely inexplicable and unnecessary direction which, when I watched it unfold, completely and totally flummoxed me. It was a perplexing deus ex machina plot twist that didn’t need to be there, in order to make Nana’s plight and characterization compelling. It felt overly contrite and lazy, even. Like that old cliche of the writers in the writer’s room having run out of ideas, and throwing darts at random, nonsensical concepts tacked to a dart board, those that they landed on would then be plopped into a story, under the guise of ‘making it more interesting’.

The problem is not, in fact, that I have missed any point raised to me about this being ‘character driven’. Especially considering the fact that it is the small amount ot actual character development and progression — and personality, when that can actually be afforded to the plot — that I have most enjoyed, up to episode 7. Each of two characters would come into the spotlight, and we’d get to know them a little bit — just enough, I’d dare to argue — to make them either likable or compelling. Which would then, in turn, pull you in, for when the inevitable stage battles would ensue. In the background of which, as well as looming in the overarching foreground, would be Karen and Hikari’s backstory and aspirations to mutually claim the top role in ‘Starlight’.

This model was fine, and actually worked quite well, just as it was. Apart from the odd backdrop of the underground stage, the ensuing stage battles, all of which was being continually and inexplicably overseen by what may or may not be a sentient, telepathic giraffe; the rest of the series was a somewhat down to earth, arguably realistic portrayal of a group of artistically inclined, aspiring performers. With all of the friendships, rivalries and drama that is a part of such a lifestyle. And it was THAT, that I found myself gravitating toward.

I had assumed from the word ‘go’ that eventually the overarching plot would kick in, and whatever that would amount to, would hopefully be just as engaging as the small character portraits that had thus far kept the series moving. And I maintain that, to me, they didn’t need to insert a completely table-flipping time loop to do it. And that, it instead lessened the weight of what Nana was experiencing, by removing it from the reality of the rest of the characterization and plotting that had come before it.

By blindsidingly elevating it into what came across as poorly plotted and developed scifi/fantasy, it completely undermined the drama, to me. And it continues to feel like it was shoehorned in as a means of attempting to make the overall plot of this series seem smarter than it actually is. The only thing worse at this point would be if they too introduced the much maligned time travel plot device of a ‘reset button’, as a way of ‘defeating’ Nana.

Not to be ad-hominem, but in your case, it seems that you may have overlooked the part of my earlier post that described my disappointment essentially running parallel to my former enjoyment of the series. In other words, that my enjoying it so much, up to episode 7, is why episode 7 felt like such a tremendous letdown. As with most of my discussions regarding this series — or any other, where I state my criticisms — it is all too often ignored whenever I have positive sentiments that I’ve shared, alongside my negative ones. Life, and indeed art, is not so black and white, love or hate. I can still actively watch and enjoy aspects of a show, even when something has made me feel utterly uninvested in it. I can only hope this one will be able to regain my engagement with its characters and plot, at some point.

Revvie-chan said:
So you don't miss the character driven thing? okay then.

Nah I didn't miss your point. You want the relationships to be explored deeper, which is a fair assessment (but what to expect from 12-13 episodes? I sure still hope one day this 12 episodes x 24 minutes format currently used in Japanese broadcasting can change.)
Also you found the timeloop to be unnecessary, which imo it's fine for you to do that. But it's also fine for the writer to do it this way. For reasons I will explain later below.

And yes, the dramatic tension is Nana vs Nana, which I like but you don't (or so does it seem to me.)
I for one think that.. bcs Nana's relationship with her friends were... supplementary, I mean: it was not real. It's just the minimum hospitality, in which in Nana's case her minimum is so big that her friends missed the sorrow inside of her. I usually call this "her mask is too thick for anyone to read. Thus she can't have real relationship."
This makes it that... the conflict must happen inside Nana.
Because between Nana and her friends, there's not even a spark for a conflict at all. You even said that it's natural for the other casts to not blame her even if they ever found out what Nana did. The design of Nana as a character made it so that her conflict can only happen inside of her. Or, you can say, I don't see a way where the conflict can happen not just inside of Nana, but also outside of her. (Maybe you have an idea what could have been a conflict between Nana and her friends? Please do share if you have an idea.)

The timeloop is just... as you said, the creative team are trying out all the craziness while making what's fundamentally an idol show. The conflict can only be Nana vs Nana, after all, and a timeloop is a viable choice, which the writer took.
How is that lazy when other writers from other anime or even other media got praised for using similar plot line?
Actually, imo, Shoujo Kageki did its timeloop right. The timeloop wasn't just there so that the plot looks wow, but also, in Nana's words, she didn't make a perfect replica each time. She changed the small details again and again. Which shows that the repeats actually invoked a wish inside Nana for a change (which allowed Mr. Giraffe to do what he did.) The timeloop allowed Nana to look at herself and her "reality". (She failed to realize it, though. She only realized it after that reality bites her back in form of a defeat.)
It wasn't a journey. It was a mirror. It actually allows the character to grow, instead of serving just as a mere device for the actual plot to happen.


ps.: Nice argument, though. Thank you. It's a rare thing in MAL anime forum, having a good deep discussion about a story.

sXeblues said:

I’m not going to venture to rewrite the entire episode/story, as that would be altogether pointless. But, I think there’s merit in calling out the faults in just about anything, as nothing is truly perfect. And, I think it’s troublesome to just unabashedly love something, turning a blind eye to the potential for faults, as I perceive some people are doing. And so, with that being said, I have to heartily agree with your final sentiment; I too have enjoyed the discourse we’ve had back and forth. As I’m always open to other people’s opinions, and the potential for seeing things in a new light, that comes from it.

Jacob194 said:
Tbh, when you just love something to the point of turning a blind eye to any of its faults isn't exactly a terrible thing, that just means you enjoy it that much and obv the reason we all watch anime is to enjoy the free time we have, not exactly criticize every fault and think how this anime would be perfect as no anime will ever be perfect nor will WE ever create an anime to put all those criticizes into making a perfect anime (or maybe we will who knows), unless you get enjoyment out of that or it's your job to criticize them.

Well, maybe I'm wrong tho.

Jacob194 said:

Hikari just by transferring broke the status quo, as she is shown having great talent so she would take someone's spot in the next starlight.

D1tchd1gger said:
I'm guessing someone has to defeat Nana to completely break the loop. A more motivated Karen would be a good candidate.

BatWeeb said:
Eh, I'm just not feeling anything with these post time-loop episodes and I think this "but this i's a character-driven anime" excuse that's been thrown around by some people is getting kinda annoying. Just because it's a character-driven anime doesn't mean they can gloss over plot points and just solve everything in a convenient way.

Some things that I didn't like in these latest episodes is that Karen and Hikari got way too strong for no good apparent reason. There's also the fact that Claudine and Tendou Maya™ still haven't got an episode dedicated to them and I don't think it makes much sense for them to have one now so far into the story.

I mean, wasn't Claudine already beaten twice by Karen? Maybe not, but I'm not in the mood to re-watch everything just confirm that. My point is, she was already defeated and probably more than once without even getting an episode dedicated to her, so it's kinda pointless to want to focus on her now. She had her chance to shine and lost it, so giving her an episode now would be a waste of time imo.

Tendou Maya...well, I don't know what to say about her, but then again that's because of the lack of an episode dedicated to her. I guess she's the only one that'd be worth focusing on in these final episodes.

Here's hoping that plot convenience doesn't trump over everything else in the end. I don't want to see an ending where Hikari and Karen both get what they want when we got told time and time again that Starlight is a story of tragedy. Overcoming tragedy by the power of friendship is an overused concept in anime and I'm absolutely tired of it, that's the last thing I want to see in this anime.

BatWeeb said:
Eh, I'm just not feeling anything with these post time-loop episodes and I think this "but this i's a character-driven anime" excuse that's been thrown around by some people is getting kinda annoying. Just because it's a character-driven anime doesn't mean they can gloss over plot points and just solve everything in a convenient way.

Some things that I didn't like in these latest episodes is that Karen and Hikari got way too strong for no good apparent reason. There's also the fact that Claudine and Tendou Maya™ still haven't got an episode dedicated to them and I don't think it makes much sense for them to have one now so far into the story.

I mean, wasn't Claudine already beaten twice by Karen? Maybe not, but I'm not in the mood to re-watch everything just confirm that. My point is, she was already defeated and probably more than once without even getting an episode dedicated to her, so it's kinda pointless to want to focus on her now. She had her chance to shine and lost it, so giving her an episode now would be a waste of time imo.

Tendou Maya...well, I don't know what to say about her, but then again that's because of the lack of an episode dedicated to her. I guess she's the only one that'd be worth focusing on in these final episodes.

Here's hoping that plot convenience doesn't trump over everything else in the end. I don't want to see an ending where Hikari and Karen both get what they want when we got told time and time again that Starlight is a story of tragedy. Overcoming tragedy by the power of friendship is an overused concept in anime and I'm absolutely tired of it, that's the last thing I want to see in this anime.

SouthRzVa said:

P.S.: Ugh, for some reason, I started to find Karen's words kind of annoying. Maybe it's because of how weak her promise sounds to me... compare to the other girls' motivations. But well, it's not a big deal either.

Lelouch0202 said:

+1 to this, Karen to me is just lacking the charisma and the conviction she needs to make her beating all these other characters seem meaningful. It just feels cheap and forced because all the other girls seem to be fighting with real conviction and all Karen ever seems to say is that she wants to perform with Hikari. Not to mention we've never really seen anything from her to drive home why it means so much to her.

Fury was passion...
Curse was faith...
Escape was bravery...
Jealousy was affection...
Despair was Hope...
Arrogance was Pride...