I still have absolutely no idea what's the appeal of this genre. Yay, I actually made it into the post! And I did try some on your list. Banana fish was a scarring experience... Yona made me hate the protagonist in like 3 episodes, she is such an unbearable spoiled brat. Nana just didn't really manage to catch me, but I'd have issues explaining why. Usapz said: Can you give me the links of the threads where you found all those anti-shojous ppl. I really want to read some of them. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2051346 Here is where I left one of those comments. yuurei_tokyo said: (probably misogyny as well) That's a really random and really big stretch. Mod Edit: Merged posts and removed quoted post |
KayKimiiMay 19, 2023 8:18 AM
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
| Well why most girls looking on shonen then has no issue identifying with the far from their lives adventures of a young blond ninja guy in orange clothe dreaming of being a hokage? Or any other popular guy protagonist of popular shonen manga? This identification bullshit seems like nonsense to me. Also plenty of guys enjoyed Haruhi and other popular mangas with a heroine wether they identified with part of her character (the fact this girl dream of having a spicier life than she has with adventures, ufos, people with psychic powers, time travelers and so on for an example feel like lots of guy otaku would be able to relate with Haruhi Suzumiya on that one gender dont have anything to do with how relatable a character is...and yes she is a heroine in a shonen but well many guys can relate with a woman protag was the point here) so that point seems pretty weak. Also as a tomboy few shojo main character actually are all that relatable to me either but i still can enjoy the stories...especially as the main protag are often the less interesting characters in shojo with the side characters being way more interesting...i think Fruit Basket as the face of shojo manga is a pretty good example of that. But some characters like the heroine of Full Moon wo sagashite face pretty universal relatable stuff like fear of death (she is a terminally ill little girl and has to make the best of what time she as left)...i cant think of any guy who cant relate to fear of death and wanting to make the best of the time they have on this Earth so this point seem even weaker to me. |
SylphelineApr 28, 2023 2:06 PM
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| Ive literally never seen this happen. What are you talking about? Put up examples. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| OP makes for a prime example of making people up. |
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MeltingSky said: Uhh where? Already tried to read this thread.Most anime fans are male and shoujo are intended for a female audience. This is why there are fewer of them and you sometimes see angry teenage boys rather vocally hating on these series. Then again you can pick any genre under the sun and there will be somebody there to hate on it. Having said this, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have more shoujo and josei anime released each season. EdgyLord666 said: Dunno but I've seen tons of people don't want to watch a girl as a mc. Never seen the opposite tho. Now you have. |
UnoPuntoCinco said: JaniSIr said: I did not see their profile and wanted to be as generous as possible; I thought it was a dumb thing to say so I tried to make it make sense. In the few josei that I have read (kiriko nananan) the relationship is already stablished; while shoujo seem to be usually about "the chase". I think he said what he meant, he advertises BDSM stuff in his signature. Also there is josei. Dabbling in that what I found is that many either have a male love interest that a literal stalker, or a very emotionally immature one. (And of course they are rich and have a perfect body.) It's not necessarily a bad thing, depending on execution those can be respectable male characters, with good relationship dynamic. But some got very uncomfortable. A lot of erotica written by women and for women are like the manga you describe: Twillight, 50 shades. In the non-smut josei I read they usually went from first meeting to marriage and kids. Can't really do that in high school. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
EdgyLord666 said: MeltingSky said: Uhh where? Already tried to read this thread.Most anime fans are male and shoujo are intended for a female audience. This is why there are fewer of them and you sometimes see angry teenage boys rather vocally hating on these series. Then again you can pick any genre under the sun and there will be somebody there to hate on it. Having said this, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have more shoujo and josei anime released each season. Now you have. You know, male characters are rather frequently written really poorly, and are basically just loser otaku self inserts, so while that's not something I have an inherent issue with, it's unfortunately kind of a red flag. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
| Misogyny, mostly. Things aimed at girls are seen as lesser works which boys obviously can't enjoy because that would make them seem weak. Same reason you see so much hate directed at make-up, fashion, the colour pink and western media made for a female audience. Women are expected to like male-targeted media because that media is seen as the default while men are expected to dislike female-targeted media because that's seen as manly. A classic case of, say it with me now, toxic masculinity. |
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| The downside with shoujo for me is the characters. I find them hard to relate to or care for. I've seen a total of 8 shoujo and they mostly skip the usual shoujo trend Banana Fish - Great anime Hotarubi no Mori e - I gave it an 8 but it didn't get higher because ultimately I don't recall much and the romance put me off Jyu-oh-sei - Didn't like the protagonist, don't even remember the other characters Kenka Banchou Otome - it was all over the place Kyou Kara Maou! - dropped it after the first episode Vampire Princess Miyu - wasn't bad but not a great either Ouran High School Host Club - I did actually enjoy this as the characters were actually likeable Prince of Stride: Alternative - Average but the characters were alright and that's mostly because it was a majority male cast. --- I need to try more shoujo though(I have tried some but dropped the first episode and not marked it or not even managed to finish the first episode) |
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| My take is that anime and manga demographics is overwhelmingly dominated by the Shonen demographic because they are the one's that are the major consumers of it statistically. In hindsight, one of the biggest and highly acclaimed piece of Japanese work that blows out outside of Japan was a shoujo title, "Hana Yori Dango" with its many adaptations around the world. Well, its premise did not really age well but it still speaks for itself. And of course there is Sailor Moon and the likes so personally, I don't think shoujo was not that far behind. |
JaniSIr said: Are you talking about how some people using this reason to stop watching anime with a guy mc actually exist? Well maybe, but never seen that.EdgyLord666 said: Uhh where? Already tried to read this thread. You know, male characters are rather frequently written really poorly, and are basically just loser otaku self inserts, so while that's not something I have an inherent issue with, it's unfortunately kind of a red flag. |
| I see many people the lack of newer shoujo/josei anime as a sign that shoujo/josei is not popular but if that was the case why would so many people still make them? The thing is that the most popular form of media of young girls and women in Japan is live action drama/movies which being the reason why so many Shoujo/Josei manga get made into live actions instead of getting anime adaptations which in most cases would be much less profitable than investing in live actions for them. Take the recent examples of Mystery, Honey Lemon Soda, Watakekkon and even the older ones that did have anime got their major boosts from their live actions and not anime adaptations. The Nodame Cantabile and Hana Dango movies are some of the highest grossing japanese movies ever for some reason, now tell me how many shounen get live action adaptations? Very few indeed because the most popular form of media among young boys is anime, yes you got that right. Obviously, shounen stuff gets popular much more frequently and easily that shoujo/josei but has it not always been that way? Nana, Furuba and Nodame were some rare cases which got very popular really early on in their run else most shoujo get popular after some while. Thank you for bearing with me and have a great day:) |
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| Why do you care so much about other people's opinions? If you like shoujo anime/manga then enjoy it. There are plenty of other people who equally enjoy it. Who cares if it isn't as popular as shounen, isekai, and harems? |
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| THAT'S QUITE SIMPLE. It's because all shoujo anime is related to women's preferences and likings. Though I do believe both genders deserve equal respect, men still kings over the world. Thus, shoujo will never catch up to shounen anime in terms of popularity, and I dare even say it's hardly going to catch up to harem genre. |
| fjaebfhebsfhsehabfjskyousuckatcooking |
| First off, I am very happy that this thread is getting the serious responses and support I was looking for. I love reading so many different responses, but I still take too long to come up with a unique thread that people might want to think about, so that's why I don't make these as often. Just know that I appreciate everyone's support and hope you have a good day! Now onto the start of my replies. Usapz said: Can you give me the links of the threads where you found all those anti-shojous ppl. I really want to read some of them. traed said: Ive literally never seen this happen. What are you talking about? Put up examples. LeonhartAugust said: For two of these posts, it's clear that you didn't read the actual thread and only read the title. If you specific two have read my original post, you'd clearly see this spoiler tag I compiled of some MAL forum posts showing some level of disinterest of shoujo animanga.OP makes for a prime example of making people up. As for Usapz, if you want to find the original posts (they are all real btw, if you couldn't tell by Lucifrost sharing a link and JaniSlr admitting one of the posts I found was his), just go on Google, copy paste the text you want to find, and make sure you search it by putting what you're copypasting in quotation marks (" "). That way, Google will give you the specific page(s) where the specific words came from. I didn't feel like it was necessary to actually quote-mention these people because I don't want to flood the inboxes of people who are long gone from the site and it's really not that hard to look it up if you really want. I'm already kinda stirring enough "drama" by baiting everybody with a copypasta'd first post lol. edit: mayoiko said: literally nobody has shunned shoujo genre Please actually read the original post for once and reference the list I posted there that I have also quoted in this new post. |
Fario-PApr 30, 2023 7:45 PM
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UberBat said: Lol, someone else who has seen Jyu-oh-sei. I dont blame you for not liking the protag and not remembering the other characters. The downside with shoujo for me is the characters. I find them hard to relate to or care for. I've seen a total of 8 shoujo and they mostly skip the usual shoujo trend Banana Fish - Great anime Hotarubi no Mori e - I gave it an 8 but it didn't get higher because ultimately I don't recall much and the romance put me off Jyu-oh-sei - Didn't like the protagonist, don't even remember the other characters Kenka Banchou Otome - it was all over the place Kyou Kara Maou! - dropped it after the first episode Vampire Princess Miyu - wasn't bad but not a great either Ouran High School Host Club - I did actually enjoy this as the characters were actually likeable Prince of Stride: Alternative - Average but the characters were alright and that's mostly because it was a majority male cast. --- I need to try more shoujo though(I have tried some but dropped the first episode and not marked it or not even managed to finish the first episode) |
"Perfection is perception. For me, humanity's imperfections is what makes it perfect"  |
| The truth of the matter is, everyone watches shounen, both girls and boys. While, shoujo on the other hand are just mostly consumed by girls. |
| Maloween 2020 candies Main candies:         |
| @Fario-P I just see posts you look like you grabbed from the recemendation baord. Everyone has their own tastes and assumptions on genres and demographics based on their limited exposure. This is in no way unique to shoujo. |
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JaniSIr said: I don't like her either. In the hopes of being constructive, I will recommend titles that resemble your favorites.Yona made me hate the protagonist in like 3 episodes, she is such an unbearable spoiled brat. Vampire Miyu is an episodic horror series like Hell Girl. RG Veda and X were both inspired by Devilman. The creators even made their own Devilman doujin. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| I like some shoujo (Full Moon wo Sagashite is one of my favorite anime), but I don't like the creepy rapey love interest archetype that is very popular in shoujo, or romance anime that have an overabundance of guys. |
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| Well yaoi already has 30% of its readership that are guys so it obviously dont disinterest every men even if yes of course its more niche and scare more gus away than shojo and wether its a shojo subgenre or its own thing is debatable. But well...as most people reason not to read shojo and not to read yaoi are different and the public of each isnt exactly interested in the same stuff probably better treat both as separate entities in such kind of topics...that got me wonder if they were more boys reading yaoi or shojo...and seek for numbers about the percentage of guys in shojo readership to be sure i did found a stat with 34% of guy manga readers ready to read shojo manga if the main character as something that catch their interest. I dont think every person who never been interested in any shojo at all is misogynistic they can be others reasons like for an example if you dont like shojo because romance isnt your thing its not misogynistic in itself. But i've heard a fair amount of guys who never wanted to touch a shojo because in their mind anything made for girls must be bad because girls sucks and every thing they like therefore sucks in their own words without even trying it. Many other women trying to get guys to try a shojo did says they encountered same reaction, i dont know how many such guys they are and if they are the majority of people who refuse to ever try a shojo on principle that it must be awful without giving it any chance but a sizable proportion of them have misogyny as their main motive not to touch it, such answer to why not try a shojo are too common for them not to be a big proportion of the shojo naysayers. Having try shojo and disliked it isnt shunning on shojo as long as its a "not my thing" kind of reaction its ok so long as its not because of cliche view of shojo that might get people missing shojo titles they indeed could like, such as not knowing some shojo arent romance and avoiding all them thinking they are all romance and so wouldnt interest you because you dislike romance when its wrong many talk about other things...but such reactions are more believing shojo cliche/most shojo to represent all shojo than misogyny, they are not...but the massive amount of guys who go all "shojo must be bad because every thing related to women and every girly thing in the world is bad"...how can it not be misogyny in their case i dont see and they are way too numerous among people shunning shojo to ignore they are among the main forces getting shojo a reputation way worse than it deserves. |
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Fario-P said: It’s no secret that anime has blown up all over the world—calling it popular would certainly be a freakin' understatement, especially after TheVarus Struck Buck at us. But you know what also would be a huge understatement? How shounen, seinen, isekai, harem, etc always seem to beat shoujo anime in terms of popularity and producer picks... and I don’t get it. The shoujo demographic has several series that are so in line what everyone constitutes as good storytelling. It has a diverse amount of ideas, worlds, and characters, it's beautiful, there’s quality romances, the dialogue is often meaningful, the animation when directed by a competent and passionate staff can be objectively beautiful compared to all other country’s animation... and most importantly, lots of people feel nostalgic for the near-drought of shoujo anime. Yet it still gets dissed by many hypebeasts and people-who-dislike-reading-forums-despite-posting-on-forums than other anime demographics. Even josei anime, which are far less popular and not often as produced, get more wide praise and less evasion as you can see with this thread and this thread. Why is it that the shoujo demographic, a marketing tag that delivered quality stories to preteen girls enough to appeal to those who don't identify as such, isn't more popular with both animanga consumers and anime producers, and instead seems to get endlessly mocked by others in the past for being "gay", "clichéd", "made for losers and mouth breathers"? Now if my last popular shoujo thread's responses mean anything, it seems people think I'm making shit up about how much people hate shoujo. To those people, I appreciate that you came to see my thoughts even if you feel that way, but here is some evidence. Let me ask some of you who feel that way this: have you actually tried to watch/read shoujo? I’m not talking about the "romance" trash that YouTube's algorithm recommends with the H thumbnails or stuff people believe are shoujo like Horimiya or Kaguya-sama, I’m talking about some real good old-but-gold classics: Banana Fish, Cardcaptor Sakura, Whisper of the Heart, Yona of the Red Dawn, Fruits Basket, Natsume's Book of Friends, Lovely Complex, Skip Beat!, Full Moon wo Sagashite, NANA, The Story of Saiunkoku, The Rose of Versailles, Yumeiro Patissiere, Magic Knight Rayearth, KodoCha, BASARA, From Far Away, Dengeki Daisy, Kitchen Princess, Gakuen Alice, 7SEEDS, Last Game, Fairy Cube, Othello., Life... Saying shoujo animanga are shit because of the crap you’ve "seen" with your willy is like saying that high school anime are bad after only having watched stuff like AnoHana and Velma. Even freaking The Anime Man likes Fruits Basket and that dude hates every anime that came out recently. I freakin' love a lot of animanga, regardless of demographic, but truth be told on an objective level a lot of them are missing something for me. I admit I am more of an oldschool mahou shoujo fan specifically when it comes to shoujo, so I'm really feeling that something's missing even more, but it's crazy how much more anime are being made every frickin' season and yet shoujo take up even less of the seasonal charts than they did a decade or two (or even three) ago. But I've already made another thread about that, so you probably already know if you were nice enough to read that thread. But seriously, I love laughing at some of the scores of anime airing every season and how "unexpected" it is that the newest garbage isekai anime "somehow" get low scores. It's clear that I'm not the only anime fan who's tired of some of the shit anime's been pulling nowadays and that we need more quality content. I cry for every day how half of my shelf don't get anime adaptations or even enough love just because they're not the type of anime that most people like and want right now. Maybe they aren’t more popular, but I guarantee that most shoujo are (and will continue to be) more well respected than half the isekai that come out every year now. The average shoujo anime is better than every narou-kei isekai anime. Cope. ★-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-⋆-★ ...Hi. Yeah, I did that kind of shoujo thread again. Sorry for copypasta'ng again for those of you that don't like it. But it seems it worked pretty well last time and most people don't even bother to read threads on forums anyway, so I guess baiting and making fun of bait threads is the only way to get anyone to listen to me. While 50% of the beginning is shitposting, the other 50% is genuine thoughts... yeah I genuinely want to know why some of you don't really like or want to try shoujo at all. I want to make this different from the last time I did a shoujo topic this way in that I want you to enlighten me. Why do you not like shoujo? Why are you not interested in it? I'm asking seriously and am willing to lend an ear. It will be especially enlightening for someone who wants to make stories that people from all walks of life can enjoy, and also be able to provide the something that I felt was lost as I mentioned earlier. I like to make shoujo-style comics, but I think getting honest, civil perspectives from people who don't like that kind of thing will help me understand you all and how to make something more appealing. It might also help us shoujosei fans understand those who don't have the same taste as us better too. ♪ I promise I will make an original high-quality thread again real soon. But in the meantime... happy discussing. ✩ Sincerely, your local MAL forum threadreaper  Shoujo's (mostly) seen as a bit of a naive genre. And given what's been licenced, it's true: the west usually gets either sappy teen girl romances (that have drama on-par with telenovelas) or yaoi for absolute degenerates. Once again, the west simply isn't getting good stuff - shows that are shoujo in demographic but actually have multi-demographic appeal. |
| Hot Blood saves lives. |
Lucifrost said: JaniSIr said: I don't like her either. In the hopes of being constructive, I will recommend titles that resemble your favorites.Yona made me hate the protagonist in like 3 episodes, she is such an unbearable spoiled brat. Vampire Miyu is an episodic horror series like Hell Girl. RG Veda and X were both inspired by Devilman. The creators even made their own Devilman doujin. I suppose I might be bored enough to check that out, although based on that description I'm not sure you understand what I found appealing in Hell Girl. (It was the moral issues.) |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
TheMechaManiac said: What are some examples of good shoujo that have yet to be licensed?Shoujo's (mostly) seen as a bit of a naive genre. And given what's been licenced, it's true: the west usually gets either sappy teen girl romances (that have drama on-par with telenovelas) or yaoi for absolute degenerates. Once again, the west simply isn't getting good stuff - shows that are shoujo in demographic but actually have multi-demographic appeal. JaniSIr said: I suppose I didn't understand. That may explain my own dislike of Hell Girl.I suppose I might be bored enough to check that out, although based on that description I'm not sure you understand what I found appealing in Hell Girl. (It was the moral issues.) |
| その目だれの目？ |
maho_shojo_ai said: Dude I know. I am just saying lol The Ancient Magus Bride tropewise is very similar to a lot of YA novels that are aimed at girls over here. The fact the Ancient Magus Bride is serialized in shonen magazine is why I think it's pointless to care about demographics. Say what you want I guarantee you most of its fans are predominantly female. Mangaka used to publish in female targeted magazines. Outside of some explicit cases the actual divide between the demographics isn't that great. I don't really care about the magazine a manga is serialized in tbh. BilboBaggins365 said: That's not how shonen and shojo work. Shojoesque doesn't exist. Shonen and shojo aren't genres. They are demographics that can be anything they want. If a manga is serialized in a shonen magazine, then it's shonen. The Ancient Magus Bride is serialized in a shonen magazine which means that it's shonen.there are a few notable "shonen" manga/anime to me that are pretty shojoesque that usually get high praise such as The Ancient Magus Bride. |
Cotaweb said: Hm… that’s true to some degree. I feel as though the only people who don’t like shoujo are the shounen fans. Not all of them, but most of them just want to see action, not drama and romance :p BilboBaggins365 said: I mean female fans also are looking for action, adventure, death defying stuff etc. I mean I know there are shojo media like Yona of the Dawn and Rose of Versailes it's just that isn't what people normally think when they think Shojo. A lot of guys and girls (who later gravitate to shonen/seinen stories) are looking for action and adventure plots and shojo media doesn't really promote that. Delphineum said: If there is one thing I might have to actually criticize the shoujo demographic for, it's definitely that there could be a lot more action series. Nothing wrong with the "bread and butter" of the demographic of course (I mean Kitchen Princess is literally one of my favorite manga lol), but seeing the recent manga tagged as "shoujo" on Anime-Planet makes me think there could be a bit less "generic" shoujo SoL romances and maybe a bit more of the cool action type, since girls clearly like action too.The themes and genres explored in shoujo are simply not interesting to the average boy. Why? Because they generally have slower pacing, and most importantly they lack action, which is what young boys are most interested in. Also, the mood can be more laid back and relaxed, which they might find boring. We do at least have some action shoujo series at the moment (also including some Anime-Planet considers action)...
but that's not to say we should not have some more :) |
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Lucifrost said: I suppose I didn't understand. That may explain my own dislike of Hell Girl. Well, I can't particularly judge how far you made it that caused you to dislike it, considering you don't seem have added it. Tbh at the beginning I almost dropped it too, since it started with the really straight forward episodes, where the dude sent to hell totally deserved it, but then it got more morally ambiguous, sometimes petty, sometimes outright stupid, not even getting a happy ending, with various degrees of happy ending, and occasionally really creative and totally fucked up. And the overarching story of the second half of season 1 is totally heartbreaking. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
| well that's because most shoujo doesn't really see a lot of spot light as a lot of the ones that get animated are just CGDCT slice of lifes. most the ones that do see the spot light are shoujo ai, have shoujo ai undertones, or are reverse harems. some examples of ones I've seen that are well received tend to be a blend of genre. yona of the dawn, my life as a villianess all routes lead to doom. ghost hunt, Girls und Panzer, I've not included Nanoha as that series despite having a ton of Shoujo ai undetones (if you can even call it undertones.) is considered a seinen @Curlybrace101 ya that's another thing on this site there are quite a few people who will straight up refuse to watch a series if it has a female lead protagonist |
GrimAtramentApr 29, 2023 9:30 AM
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
| Shoujo romance is becoming obsolete, because today you can write a romance for a shounen magazine, josei, or a seinen magazine with great success and all genders will watch it. Otonari no Tenshi-sama is a prime example. Also, doing this allows you to make the work more mature and less girly, while still preserving the femininity of the female characters. |
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JaniSIr said: That is where I dropped it. I don't think I will give the series another chance, but I am glad to have heard your thoughts on it.Tbh at the beginning I almost dropped it too, since it started with the really straight forward episodes |
| その目だれの目？ |
| people don't like shoujo because they think "it's for girls therefor it's dumb." that's literally it. even though it's no more or less dumb than other demos and nobody watches anime for the "meaning" anyway. seinen magazines are filled with "girly" manga and men love them. the only problem with shoujo is, not that it's girly, not that it's less interesting; point blank, it's just that it's "for girls." |
| As producer of Bushiroad indirectly said, you can get girls to consume male content, but you have to work really hard to get males to consume female content. Therefore, content for men simply sells much better, because it can appeal to both gender audiences at once that female. If you take a look at the most popular shoujo franchises of recent times, you'll find that most of them were gender-neutral enough to attract guys. |
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| I'm not sure I fully understand the question. But, I am a shouko scholar considering MAL says I have currently... 3 shoujo anime under my belt, 2 of them being light novel adaptation and the 3rd I've dropped after one episode. Is it about why more shoujo isn't released? Because shoujo authors haven't figured out the formula™ that makes shoujo an universal experience. Why aren't more people watching shoujo anime? There's as many reasons as there's anime watchers, but in a general sense, it's because shoujo isn't something with an extremely broad appeal, even more so considering the 2020 casual wave. Why are so many people dismissing shoujo? Casuals have the worst takes on Earth, this is an universal truth. Why don't I watch more shoujo? Iunno, never found one that seemed appealing. Also don't bother with recommendations, I will do what every anime fan does and not take them into account. The one shoujo I dropped after one episode was actually something someone recommended to me |
Im_StuffApr 29, 2023 2:16 PM
| Stuff in the streets, Stuff with drip in the sheets |
| It's the m-word. Misogyny. Things aimed at girls are regarded by a significant proportion of the population as inferior. Masculinity is seen as superior to femininity. And even people immune to this effect can easily be mislead by those implementing it. It's the same reason why people hate boys wearing skirts but have no problem with girls wearing trousers, why transmisogyny dominates general transphobia, why the "heart attack symptoms" people are asked to learn are those experienced by men, why vagina-based words are seen as dirtier, etc. It's a shame, because back when there wasn't enough anime available in the West to pick and choose, the whole community watched it. Sailor Moon, Marmalade Boy and Fushigi Yuugi were just things everyone knew. You could say of Kodocha "We have found people who don't like this show. We think they're weird." and it would make sense to people. |
logopolisApr 29, 2023 12:23 PM
| lowkey josei is the most shunned a lot of ppl love shoujo |
 |
Josei is at least targeted for adults, so that makes it much more palatable for me. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
logopolis said: Perhaps shoujo would see more respect today if fansubbers and licensors had picked better titles to translate back then.It's a shame, because back when there wasn't enough anime available in the West to pick and choose, the whole community watched it. Sailor Moon, Marmalade Boy and Fushigi Yuugi were just things everyone knew. You could say of Kodocha "We have found people who don't like this show. We think they're weird." and it would make sense to people. |
| その目だれの目？ |
logopolis said: It's the m-word. Misogyny. Things aimed at girls are regarded by a significant proportion of the population as inferior. Masculinity is seen as superior to femininity. And even people immune to this effect can easily be mislead by those implementing it. It's the same reason why people hate boys wearing skirts but have no problem with girls wearing trousers, why transmisogyny dominates general transphobia, why the "heart attack symptoms" people are asked to learn are those experienced by men, why vagina-based words are seen as dirtier, etc. It's a shame, because back when there wasn't enough anime available in the West to pick and choose, the whole community watched it. Sailor Moon, Marmalade Boy and Fushigi Yuugi were just things everyone knew. You could say of Kodocha "We have found people who don't like this show. We think they're weird." and it would make sense to people. I don't know where you got this nonsense, when in the west "toxic masculinity" is one of the most overused buzz words. |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
JaniSIr said: I don't know where you got this nonsense, when in the west "toxic masculinity" is one of the most overused buzz words. Excellent, exhibit Q has arrived... |
Fario-P said: This just goes to show how much variety shoujo animanga has. Too bad a lot of people are missing out.Cotaweb said: Hm… that’s true to some degree. I feel as though the only people who don’t like shoujo are the shounen fans. Not all of them, but most of them just want to see action, not drama and romance :p BilboBaggins365 said: I mean female fans also are looking for action, adventure, death defying stuff etc. I mean I know there are shojo media like Yona of the Dawn and Rose of Versailes it's just that isn't what people normally think when they think Shojo. A lot of guys and girls (who later gravitate to shonen/seinen stories) are looking for action and adventure plots and shojo media doesn't really promote that. Delphineum said: If there is one thing I might have to actually criticize the shoujo demographic for, it's definitely that there could be a lot more action series. Nothing wrong with the "bread and butter" of the demographic of course (I mean Kitchen Princess is literally one of my favorite manga lol), but seeing the recent manga tagged as "shoujo" on Anime-Planet makes me think there could be a bit less "generic" shoujo SoL romances and maybe a bit more of the cool action type, since girls clearly like action too.The themes and genres explored in shoujo are simply not interesting to the average boy. Why? Because they generally have slower pacing, and most importantly they lack action, which is what young boys are most interested in. Also, the mood can be more laid back and relaxed, which they might find boring. We do at least have some action shoujo series at the moment (also including some Anime-Planet considers action)...
but that's not to say we should not have some more :) |
 |
maho_shojo_ai said: See, that's actually an interesting discussion to have. The demographics are not pointless, but they can be largely arbitrary. The kind of themes you see in a book like Banana Fish would be perfectly at home in a seinen book, while something like K-On, despite being seinen, has nothing particularly objectionable and enough cross-demographic appeal that it ran in syndication on kids' TV in Japan. And this is done intentionally at times, too. Black Butler is famous for being tailor made for a female audience, despite running in a shonen magazine. Not to mention cases like Berserk, a very violent and sexual dark fantasy seinen manga, being directly inspired by shojo manga like The Rose of Versailles.Thank you! That's what I've been trying to tell people for years. All of these demographics are meaningless and cause pointless discussion over which series belong to which demographic. I wish they had never existed in the first place. The demographic can give an idea of the kinds of stories and art you're going to get from a series, too. Take romance for example. Obviously shojo is not just romance, but it's an easy genre to compare across demographics and the kinds of romance stories you see are very different than what you see from shonen. Shojo romance tends to be from the female perspective, with more focus on the relationship building and with more melodrama. Shonen romance is usually from the male perspective, often focuses on comedy first and the romance second and has less melodrama. Neither of these approaches are inherently bad. But you do see more emphasis on different tropes in different demographics. And then there's the elements of systemic sexism and capitalism. It's a well documented phenomenon that women are more likely to engage with media targeting male audiences and empathize with male characters than vice versa. This leads to a bit of a feedback loop. If a piece of media is popular, it makes money. If it makes money, copycats are more likely to be created. And then those copycats make money. And then we get more of the same until they stop making money. And because women and girls are more likely to read/watch shonen than men and boys are to read/watch shojo, that means, for shojo, a huge portion of your potential audience is lost from the onset. So the safer bet, in theory, is shonen. So that's the bulk of what gets made. And then we get the above feedback loop. And this isn't because of men being consciously sexist. This is a systemic issue. And for every man who refuses to engage with a shojo and josei manga or anime consciously because it's made for girls, there's going to be some number more that aren't even completely aware that they're ignoring shojo and josei. Because Japan, like most countries on Earth, is a largely patriarchal society. Without magazines dedicated to specific demographics, manga made for women and girls would get less and less prominence until it just fades mostly into obscurity. Which sounds extreme, but it's exactly what we're seeing with how few shojo anime adaptations we get nowadays. |
KermomancerApr 30, 2023 1:45 PM
| Have you heard of the Odagiri effect? I think it has something to do with that. From my understanding male oriented media has an easier time overlapping with a female audience than vice versa. |
  ♡ Harder Daddy ♡ |
Risa92 said: logopolis said: It's the m-word. Misogyny. Things aimed at girls are regarded by a significant proportion of the population as inferior. Masculinity is seen as superior to femininity. And even people immune to this effect can easily be mislead by those implementing it. It's the same reason why people hate boys wearing skirts but have no problem with girls wearing trousers, why transmisogyny dominates general transphobia, why the "heart attack symptoms" people are asked to learn are those experienced by men, why vagina-based words are seen as dirtier, etc. It's a shame, because back when there wasn't enough anime available in the West to pick and choose, the whole community watched it. Sailor Moon, Marmalade Boy and Fushigi Yuugi were just things everyone knew. You could say of Kodocha "We have found people who don't like this show. We think they're weird." and it would make sense to people. That's absolutely true and isn't only about shoujo. Music and books that are primarly liked by girls are automatically looked down on and the butt of the joke too. Although I suppose that could explain why Redo of Healer is getting so much hate 🤔 |
| Cucumber ice cream is the best! |
| As many people says shojo isnt interesting because its just romance i've got to a manga website and counted the not romance tagged as genre shojo in the titles selection, out of 1000, 205 of this shojo were not about romance at all so, 20%, one out of five. And it was western edition we know in Japan this demographic as a wider variety of titles and themes so probably even more not romance shojo titles. So yes not liking romance is reason enough to avoid most shojo but far from all. But yeah changing category by genre like horror, historical, sci fi, romance and so on would get people towards the titles they could like fairer than continuing to use this demographics on that i agree but sadly most people dont so we're trap with shojo/shonen/seinen treated as the genre they arent until people got ready to change this mentality. Some manga editors already drop this classification and get their romantic shojo in romance, sci fi shojo in sci fi, horror shojo in horror etc...getting the shojo which arent pure romance in they fitted category and it works to get them to a larger public so i wish it would be more editors doing that but most dont because their readership is attached to the shojo/shonen/seinen etc...categories and expressed a fear of ending up lost if it is changed that way...well ordinary books are classified by narrative genres since forever without people feeling lost in libraries i dont see how it would be so different for mangas but people have a hard times changing their habits so until the holy day when this will finally get us away from gendering manga classification meaninglessly we're here trying to open mind of people about what shojo can offer them a bit more. As for an exemple many here said they think shojo would bore them out of being on themes that are not of their tastes like fashion, male idol singers, cooking and well so on, idea being its too silly superficial and girly subjects for their interest but in reality its not that hard to find shojo about serious, deep and mature topic like harrassment, suicide, war...hell Daisy - 3.11 Joshikouseitachi no Sentaku a story about highschool girls survival from Fukushima was published as a shojo : https://myanimelist.net/manga/47198/Daisy__311_Joshikousei-tachi_no_Sentaku, clearly avoid shojo entirely is avoiding some deep, serious and mature stories on important topics. |
SylphelineApr 30, 2023 4:32 AM
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