| For me, it kinda is on a case by case basis. On the one hand you have Elfen Lied and on the one hand you have Inuyashiki. The latter has shock value in service of an overall theme, of the overall narrative the show weaves. Hiro Shishigami's personality and resulting shocking actions(and sometimes comically over the top) serves as an excellent foil to our old saint of a hero, Inuyashiki. The initial investment from that specific hook is what makes the shock value particularly moving. While Elfen Lied lacks all this. What does the dog being brutally murdered by a bunch of kids adds to the overall narrative or theme of the show? It's just a catalyst for Lucy going berserk and nothing valuable. SO in short, as long as the shock value is in service of the narrative or theme of a show, it's actually good. Otherwise it's just shocking for the sake of shocking which is bad. |
| When you see the word "inherently" in the thread title, you should expect almost all of the following posts to include the word "depends." |
| I'm gonna disagree with you. Inuyashiki is a bad anime. |
| Shock value for me is the most horrible thing in fiction, no joking. It means that if you get spoiled, you can't enjoy it anymore. Depending on shock value when things get spoiled very easily is the worst thing that could happen. Also, it means less rewatchability. All of it is if it doesn't add anything to the narrative, obviously. In other words, I agree with you in everything. |
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Brb said: I'm gonna disagree with you. Inuyashiki is a bad anime. I'm not really saying Inuyashiki is a good anime here(although I do think it is). I'm just stating that it actually did shock value right. |
| it's good when used properly, it easily getting old tho... especialy if repeated... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
be it good or bad it don't matter when all you care about is seeing gore and suffering and you don't get shocked anyway I no care about what you call themes when it comes to this. I just want MC to be strong and for there to be a lot of death and torture  |
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| nah can't help but to see shows that rellies on shock factor as "inherently" bad, like both of your examples |
SuzuMine-chan said: Shock value for me is the most horrible thing in fiction, no joking. It means that if you get spoiled, you can't enjoy it anymore. Depending on shock value when things get spoiled very easily is the worst thing that could happen. Also, it means less rewatchability. I agree with this. Shock only works the first time viewing, provided that moment wasn't spoiled beforehand. If that's the main selling point or the focus of the story, it takes away most of the enjoyability if someone were to try watching it again. |
 You're never too old to watch anime. If I ever stop watching anime, check my pulse I'm likely dead. I wake up with coffee & anime, I go to sleep with coffee & anime. Sorry if my sarcasm is bad, it's not my first language. |
| They are pretty damn enjoyable. But schlock is shlock. |
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| Depends, if for me it is the only thing that it has going for it is the "shock value" then it is most likely bad or underwhelming like Yakusoku no Neverland, Steins;Gate or Madoka Magica. It can be entertaining though if it is played as a rule of cool thing like in Hellsing Ultimate. On the other hand while Monster has some "shock value" scenes there are plenty more reasons for me to like it. |
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| Big plot twists and other shocking moments are like a spice. They can have a big impact but you have to use them sparingly. If you overdo them, they easily lose impact. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Neither it can be used to good or bad effect. |
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| You don’t see that contradiction? If it’s the catalyst for Lucy’s actions how is it nothing valuable? In Elfen Lied as you said, the dog being brutally murdered is Lucy’s backstory. What’s Hiro’s backstory? What’s his motivation? Nothing. He just kills people for the shits and giggles. When he first started living with the girl and her grandmother, he felt no emotion towards them at all. He even thought about killing them. Couples episodes later he thinks of them like family. |
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| @OneNaughtyBear I think it is heavily implied in the 2nd episode that Hiro only really value those he only cares about. And he doesn't really care for other people, much less their lives. He's pretty much a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't really need a rhyme or reason to their actions. Whereas in Lucy's case, we see that shocking backstory. So what? How does it even shape the events of the story in a worthwhile way? |
Paradigmatic said: I find it funny you're saying a guy just being crazy is all good but if Lucy has a reason for being as she is from the betrayal she felt from her friend as she lost one of her only companions who was being beaten to death in front of her by boys who constantly bullied her in that orphanage its a problem or serves nothing @OneNaughtyBear I think it is heavily implied in the 2nd episode that Hiro only really value those he only cares about. And he doesn't really care for other people, much less their lives. He's pretty much a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't really need a rhyme or reason to their actions. Whereas in Lucy's case, we see that shocking backstory. So what? How does it even shape the events of the story in a worthwhile way? Also that event shapes the story heavily also as its what caused her dislike for humans which makes her fondness for Kouta which she gets later on more important since then she feels even more betrayed by him at the festival which makes her go full crazy killing without reason and not just for survival |
DeknijffJan 7, 2018 11:56 PM
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Paradigmatic said: It shapes the story by showing her reasoning for her actions. She had a traumatic childhood and that’s what shaped the person she became.@OneNaughtyBear I think it is heavily implied in the 2nd episode that Hiro only really value those he only cares about. And he doesn't really care for other people, much less their lives. He's pretty much a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't really need a rhyme or reason to their actions. Whereas in Lucy's case, we see that shocking backstory. So what? How does it even shape the events of the story in a worthwhile way? As for Hiro, yes he does care for his loved ones, but I wouldn’t say that he valued them. If he did then he wouldn’t have committed all those murders despite everyone he cared about didn’t like that he did those things. He threw those bonds away one by one yet he just kept on going until the very end. Aside from his mother, his other relationships hardly seems like something anymore than people he could stand to have social interactions with. |
CareBearJan 7, 2018 11:58 PM
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| I really hate when it comes to animals anyway xD Although, about those 2 shows, -shock- is a part of it so I wouldn't do without tbh. |
| For me, and again, this is just for me, shock value is good when it shocks you. I know I just said something incredibly stupid, but I'll explain. You already know what kind of anime Elfen Lied is and that is going to try and shock you. The reason it works (for me and many people) is because the shock scenes are very contrasted in the anime. The characters in EL look innocent, cute and dumb, and a lot of situations are cute and dumb too. So the reason why the shock scenes work well, is because they almost look like they don't belong in that anime. One minute you have your stereotypical walking on her in the bathroom, ten minutes later someone lost an arm. That is how EL does shock, you may not like it, but it is a valid way of trying to shock the viewer. |
nose1234Jan 8, 2018 12:09 AM
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| Elfen Lied is a surprisingly sophisticated show, I think OP has been too distracted by the gore and fanservice to even look for themes in it. (Not that they are actually, strictly speaking, a distraction, they're essential to its sense of aesthetics. But it's probably better to ignore them at first, while you're figuring out what the show is about on a basic level.) Seriously, how can you be shocked by a dog getting murdered in a show which opens with a massacre, has a pacifist, quadruple amputee who occasionally shoots her prosthetics off as weapons, and drew massive amounts of attention to Lucy setting a dog free instead of killing it earlier? It's one of the most predictable and unshocking dog murders in all fiction. The show has spent many episodes setting out how this sort of thing keeps happening in Lucy's world. Inuyashiki, on the other hand, I only watched the first episode, but can anyone justify the way that the hero suddenly comes across teens tormenting a homeless person with fireworks? It looks to me like that just happens at that point purely because the plot demands it. But generally, "shock" is irrelevant here. It's just things with themes are better than things without. |
nose1234 said: The reason it works (for me and many people) is because the shock scenes are very contrasted in the anime. The characters in EL look innocent, cute and dumb, and a lot of situations are cute and dumb too. So the reason why the shock scenes work well, is because they almost look like they don't belong in that anime. One minute you have your stereotypical walking on her in the bathroom, ten minutes later someone lost an arm. It's better to think of it as being an anime which contains two worlds. One of the things which Elfen Lied shows great awareness of is that you can have a happy, loving family living next door to one full of domestic violence. And for each of them, it's likely to be similar for their previous generation. Naturally, it exaggerates this. |
| Shock value can serve as a really great hook to an anime. It immediately catches your attention and creates suspense for future episodes. However, an anime running of shock value alone will struggle to hold up to even 1 cour let alone 2 cour. Basically it's got to do something after hooking you in, because it's got to get you invested in the characters. Brb said: ^This.I'm gonna disagree with you. Inuyashiki is a bad anime. Not only was Inuyashiki not good, it wasn't even that shocking. |
| If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| Higurashi (specially the first ''timeline'' which is for me the greatest) does something similar to EL, regarding the contrasted situations. The first episodes are mostly just kids playing, but there are few moments in which some characters completely ''break character'' in a very sudden manner and creates shock that way. The rest of the anime repeats the formula a lot. Doki Doki Literature club is similar too, you have three hours of poems and dumb stuff, and suddenly, well, you know what, and then the rest of the game which is an entire fuckfest. Again, shock through contrast. |
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nose1234 said: However, Higurashi does it better than Elfen Lied. The characters in Higurashi have more personality beyond the obvious, but the characters in EL are very one-dimensional and predictable imo. This at least makes Higurashi to have its scenes of shock value with more relevance, since they also serve for characters as well. But Elfen Lied is just mindless gore for the sake of mindless gore.Higurashi (specially the first ''timeline'' which is for me the greatest) does something similar to EL, regarding the contrasted situations. The first episodes are mostly just kids playing, but there are few moments in which some characters completely ''break character'' in a very sudden manner and creates shock that way. The rest of the anime repeats the formula a lot. Doki Doki Literature club is similar too, you have three hours of poems and dumb stuff, and suddenly, well, you know what, and then the rest of the game which is an entire fuckfest. Again, shock through contrast. I havem't played Doki Doki Literature Cluv yet but since Elfen Lied does it very terrible, it's probably that DDLC does it better. |
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| idk how do you even define the term? If it naturally fits in with the story, plot and setting I wouldn't call something shock value just because it has gore or whatever. And that is the case for a lot of examples people discuss in this thread. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Elfen Lied really shocked me with that dog scene. I cried for days and it took me ages to pick it up again. When I rewatch it, I skip that scene. Whether it is good or bad for you, it depends how hard it is trying to shock you if that makes sense. If it adds to the story then yes it is good but if it is trying to just be as disgusting as possible then no. |
| Shock = good. (for me) Because overused tropes AGAIN is bad. So a shock effect is really good in an anime. EXCEPT: |
| Ehhh, not really, but if that's all what show relies on to keep the audience then it sucks ass. Just like Elfen Lied or Madoka do, boring shit for almost all it's length and few 'shocking' scenes every now and then. Bleh. |
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| Usually it has the opposite effect on me, it makes it comical which breaks the 4th wall of anything trying to be serious. Like the first episode of Owari no Seraph when they murder that gaggle of kids out of the blue, I nearly split my sides laughing. It's a pitiable moment for the writers to have effort toward attempted suspense and dark themes become a joke through execution and tackiness. The moment something like that happens, it becomes a comedy show which establishes new criteria to continue watching. Hence, I almost always drop such shows immediately after. |
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logopolis said: Elfen Lied is a surprisingly sophisticated show, I think OP has been too distracted by the gore and fanservice to even look for themes in it. (Not that they are actually, strictly speaking, a distraction, they're essential to its sense of aesthetics. But it's probably better to ignore them at first, while you're figuring out what the show is about on a basic level.) Seriously, how can you be shocked by a dog getting murdered in a show which opens with a massacre, has a pacifist, quadruple amputee who occasionally shoots her prosthetics off as weapons, and drew massive amounts of attention to Lucy setting a dog free instead of killing it earlier? It's one of the most predictable and unshocking dog murders in all fiction. The show has spent many episodes setting out how this sort of thing keeps happening in Lucy's world. Inuyashiki, on the other hand, I only watched the first episode, but can anyone justify the way that the hero suddenly comes across teens tormenting a homeless person with fireworks? It looks to me like that just happens at that point purely because the plot demands it. But generally, "shock" is irrelevant here. It's just things with themes are better than things without. lol both inyashiki and elfen lied have themes. I fail to see your point. |
CoreFinder said: PEOPLE SUPPORTING ELFEN LIED!!!I must be dreaming or I must have entered an alternate timeline. I know right, this is a historical day on MAL. |
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| I guess I'd say it's good, but at the same time, it's very hard for me to be phased by "shocking" things. |
| I don't consider anything as inherently good or bad. I wouldn't use 'good' or 'bad' at all in such context, but that's a trivial matter. It's a difficult topic to debate about. There are a lot of cases, arguments/counter arguments, understandings and the true intentions of the writers. OneNaughtyBear said: You don’t see that contradiction? If it’s the catalyst for Lucy’s actions how is it nothing valuable? In Elfen Lied as you said, the dog being brutally murdered is Lucy’s backstory. What’s Hiro’s backstory? What’s his motivation? Nothing. He just kills people for the shits and giggles. When he first started living with the girl and her grandmother, he felt no emotion towards them at all. He even thought about killing them. Couples episodes later he thinks of them like family. It was stated that Ichirou feels alive when he helps people, Hiro feels alive when he hurts and kills people, the side effect of partly losing humanity. It all ties into the story, however, with quite the plot holes. logopolis said: Inuyashiki, on the other hand, I only watched the first episode, but can anyone justify the way that the hero suddenly comes across teens tormenting a homeless person with fireworks? It looks to me like that just happens at that point purely because the plot demands it. But generally, "shock" is irrelevant here. It's just things with themes are better than things without. It is a plot device that is used to establish and display certain aspects of a character. It is also used to provoke emotional response from the viewer, be it positive or negative. |
Suddenly, someone slaps you with a brick wall. |
PoeticJustice said: lol both inyashiki and elfen lied have themes. I fail to see your point. I certainly think Elfen Lied has themes, and I haven't commented on whether Inuyashiki does because I've only seen one episode. I've merely asked about a single point in the episode I have seen. MogulKhanTouchUs said: A review copied and pasted from the Elfen Lied page that notes a heck load of criticism on Elfen Lied. (also with the theme handling) Many claim this certain title, Elfen Lied, to be "deep", though I fail to understand why. It touches upon the concepts of racism and discrimination in the most superficial way possible. Lucy and other diclonius were born to kill humans, just like the wolf is born to prey on the sheep. It's in their genes, it's a natural instinct. Now if a man were to cage a wolf and let his sheep roam free, it wouldn't be discrimination, but an act of defence. The same logic is for elfen lied, where most diclonius are caged up and kept in miserable states so that they don't end up wiping out the human race. This is not racisms, neither is this discrimination, it's just simple self defence. This is not depth, this is just ridiculous and superficial handling of a theme that could have been done well. I don't want to go through all that lot, so I'll just look at the part that the poster bolded, and invite people to consider the human-killing instincts that Nana shows. Elfen Lied isn't a show which just straightforwardly tells you a load of things which make literal sense. It relates to narrative in a more sophisticated way than the reviewer is obviously used to doing. |
| @MogulKhanTouchUs thanks for reminding me why the dislike button for reviews on MAL need to comeback |
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MogulKhanTouchUs said: I don't care about the praise of the show when strictly talking about the show itself. Be it worth the praise right now or not it matters not Deknijff said: Really? o.O @MogulKhanTouchUs thanks for reminding me why the dislike button for reviews on MAL need to comeback I think they have alot of extremely valid points. I'm not sure how you would counter them, because when so many people praise it, when it's not really deserving of all that praise? That review is dig shit honestly. It says it has plot holes but he brings it up with hardly any examples of things contradicting themselves which is a shame because you can probably find it if you look. I can look past that because some don't want to spoil for stupid reasons despite it being a review but the main problem is that he is inherently treating a whole genre as shit like if he knows anything which its clear he doesn't since EL isn't a harem but a love triangle considering only Lucy and Yuka are in love with Kouta He brings up that it is a fetish type show but its not really since it just has a lot of nudity and under age characters Incest too if you're one of those people who think cousins are enough so thats up to the person in question I guess. But just because a show has fetishes it doesn't make it bad just like he says Kouta is a generic MC doesn't matter because uniqueness or speciality is only relative to the experience of the viewer at hand so it isn't a criticism but simple something he doesn't like personally and it effects the show in no way. |
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MogulKhanTouchUs said: I wouldn't personally call Kouta a self insert. Sure one can say any character is a self insert because one can most likely put themselves in his shoes some what because they feel he is similar to them but considering how many people there are in the world that is most likely true for all characters be they the main character or not so be he a self insert or not it frankly matters not Deknijff said: It seems to me though the show itself is a self-insert kind, (hence the generic MC and fetishes+incest) and that trait can really turn people away from or criticize the show, after they look over the shock value of gore/nudity/blood.I don't care about the praise of the show when strictly talking about the show itself. Be it worth the praise right now or not it matters not That review is dig shit honestly. It says it has plot holes but he brings it up with hardly any examples of things contradicting themselves which is a shame because you can probably find it if you look. I can look past that because some don't want to spoil for stupid reasons despite it being a review but the main problem is that he is inherently treating a whole genre as shit like if he knows anything which its clear he doesn't since EL isn't a harem but a love triangle considering only Lucy and Yuka are in love with Kouta He brings up that it is a fetish type show but its not really since it just has a lot of nudity and under age characters Incest too if you're one of those people who think cousins are enough so thats up to the person in question I guess. But just because a show has fetishes it doesn't make it bad just like he says Kouta is a generic MC doesn't matter because uniqueness or speciality is only relative to the experience of the viewer at hand so it isn't a criticism but simple something he doesn't like personally and it effects the show in no way. |
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| Shock value is still a value, so yeah, it's inherently good. Whether it's enough to drive a show or not is the issue and... wait for it... here we go... it depends. Also, of all possible criticism Elfen Lied can get, that its shock value is not well-inserted in the overall narrative is the one I understand less. Shocking moments actually made characters grow in this series and conditioned their development and the state of their relationships. |
jal90Jan 8, 2018 5:34 PM
| It doesn't really add that much for me. What I've noticed over the years is that shock value is used very often to try to cover up a lack of substance or progression. They have an episode where next to nothing really happens, then end it with a big shock leading into a cliffhanger... only to do the same thing next episode. Shock value isn't bad in and of itself, but it is a sign of a bad anime to rely on it. The first example I always go to with this topic is Attack on Titan. The majority of the show is pretty boring, but new anime fans remember it because there was a big shock at the end of each episode. If you were spoiled on Attack on Titan (though it is predictable), it wouldn't be fun to watch it since it relies almost entirely on shock value. If something is well written, shock value is just icing on the cake, but shock value just makes bad writing worse. |
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| If you want to understand what Elfen Lied is doing, there's a particularly illustrative scene somewhere in the middle of it, when Lucy is being Lucy but has compromised vectors, and tests something out on a random passing girl, rendering her unconscious, and whose skirt reveals her pants in the process of falling. At first glance, just another gratuitous piece of fanservice, right? Well, just before it happens, she's complaining about how (I think it's) the manager of the place where she's working keeps staring at her behind. Immediately before the show throws in this panty shot which invites, nay, forces the viewer (who doesn't want to stop watching, naturally) to do the same thing, this thing it's just identified as creepy and gross. There's no way this is an accident. So what's going on? Well, the basic structure of the show is that you have these two narratives, an exaggerated gritty sci-fi drama narrative and an exaggerated optimistic harem-y (depending on definition) comedy narrative, which work according to totally different systems of logic, but keep colliding. (This is why, for instance, you don't see Maya showing any of the normal aftereffects of abuse once she's escaped, she hasn't just escaped into a different family, she's escaped into an entirely different narrative, where that sort of thing just doesn't happen.) Lucy/Nyuu is the key character, since she has a different personality for each narrative. That is a scene in the gritty sci-fi narrative, where decent people don't stare at people's arses. (And if someone is randomly nude, there's something badly wrong etc.) But here, Lucy is carrying a bit of Nyuu in her, in her inability to use her vectors properly. So she messes her role up. My reading of this is that it's rooted in the way television can make us uncomfortable, because we're supposed to keep looking at the screen, but the screen can show us things which we'd instinctively want to look away from, whether that be a bloody mess, or a naked person (where it's voyeuristic). (Both featured prominently in this show.) |
| I hate to admit it, but sometimes I appreciate some good ol' shock value. Like when I started Devilman: Crybaby, my jaw honestly dropped and I had this dumb smile on my face. "Whoa! They can't show that!" |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
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