| I completely agree that FEELS anime is for crybabies. |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
| I dont get it either and it annoys me a bit cause it feels kinda immune to criticism if you dont want to be forceful in your argument. -Mahesvara said: Im pretty sure every creator designs and plans for certain scenes to be more emotional than others, its part of their job to manipulate our emotions through storytelling. The only crtique that should made is how they do it. idk if youve read OP but thats exactly the point |
SpaghettiSpikeApr 26, 2017 2:34 PM
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
| I tried watching Angel Beats, found it to be boring and dropped it. |
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| The same principle can be applied to a lot of anime comedy where art style suddenly changes for a moment. Sometimes whatever happened is genuinely amusing, but it often seems to be little more than a visual laugh track. |
| Im pretty sure every creator designs and plans for certain scenes to be more emotional than others, its part of their job to manipulate our emotions through storytelling, visuals, sound, etc. The only crtique that should made is how they do it, not the fact that they're manipulating us to feel a certain way, because then everything would be marked down cause of that. |
-MahesvaraApr 26, 2017 2:49 PM
My Queens  |
| Rationalizing our feelings and assuming that they can only be triggered under certain stipulated conditions we predefine based on our idea of what makes anime good just does not work. We are not machines following predictable patterns and our emotions don't know shit about taste. Thinking that the characters are bad, that the development is rushed or incoherent or that the drama does not follow a logical structure means nothing if the execution somehow hits the right note in a given moment. You will cry either way. |
| Mm, from my point of view, I don't really care if I watched them struggle to achieve their dreams or if they're what people would call dull. Being dull isn't a sin in any which way. I still view them like I would watching an actual person's plight ._. And it goes without saying that I know they're not real people, but I just don't think being "boring" is a sin in of itself, so I don't really...hold that against them and it still kind of sucks to see innocent characters suffer. Like, if it expands on a character I found thoroughly rotten and detestable by ascribing a tragic backstory, I still won't feel as much for them as I would a tragedy happening to a character who I don't totally detest. Maybe I'm kind of soft in that regard and I'm sure many people would be very quick to dismiss me as a no-standards idiot, but...nah. I'm happy with where I'm at in that regard. I perceive the alternative - only feeling for characters that I like or find well-written or whatever - to be far less preferable. jal90 said: Rationalizing our feelings and assuming that they can only be triggered under certain stipulated conditions we predefine based on our idea of what makes anime good just does not work. We are not machines following predictable patterns and our emotions don't know shit about taste. Thinking that the characters are bad, that the development is rushed or incoherent or that the drama does not follow a logical structure means nothing if the execution somehow hits the right note in a given moment. You will cry either way. I like this post more than my own, actually Fuck, I actually spent time trying to convey my thoughts, only for the post immediately before mine to be far better than anything I had to say >:( |
ManabanApr 26, 2017 2:49 PM
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ZachM said: This sounds very tsundere.. "I-it's not like i'm sad because you told me to be sad, baka show"It makes it so you're not sad because you care about the characters and what happens to them, you're sad because the show is telling you to feel sad. I see it more and more in shows where the characters are poorly written, bland, not really warranting a connection from the viewer. Shows just create this artifical sense of emotion that you should feel sad despite having no reason to feel that way. |
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| manipulate viewers?! That's a very bad ways to use anime as a propaganda. |
| I don't know, I'm a crybaby and I tend to cry even with the least sad scene. Even if the characters are not real (or realistic), if I get invested with them, there is a high probability I will suffer along with the characters through the series if bad things happens to them. I mean, it just natural for us human to feel empathy, even for fictional characters, we're not machines after all. I cried with the ending of Angel Beats, I admit. And while the sad music helped a lot (+ the voice acting during the scene, who I think it was great), it was mostly because I came to like the characters a lot after spending the series with them. There was also the context of the situation, who was pretty sad itself. That being said, there are a lot of shows with supposed sad scenes who didn't brought me to tears at all (Akame ga Kill!, Madoka, Erased...), and it was precisely because the characters didn't grown on me enough (or in some cases not at all) to make me feel spilling tears for them was worthy. Hell, even in the own Angel Beats, there were "sad moments" who i didn't felt at all (like Iwasawa's arc) because I didn't connected to the characters involved at all. At the end, it just really depends of how you execute the show. I respect however if someone think scenes like Angel Beats's ending or the likes are emotionally manipulative, we don't have to agree on everything after all. |
IllyricusApr 26, 2017 3:12 PM
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| I hate that especially when they are trying to make you feel bad for the villains. ex: Tokyo Ghoul the show just spends a shit ton of time trying to victimize the ghouls and making them more likeable to the audience but never shows how much the humans have suffered from them |
| 한 번만 살지만 제대로 하면 한 번이면 충분해요 |
| I agree, and I hate it when they have scenes where they have a character raise obvious death flags and then kill that character off. I also hate it when the other characters mourn the dead character and whine about how sad it is... We get it; no need to shove it in our faces. |
 What's the difference? |
| From where i stand, Emotions are triggered by how we are invested in our character. I won't feel anything if a character whom i yet to know and understand suddenly died in the anime or game. However, when a character i know so much and understand so well suddenly gone or died, then that particular emotion triggers in my mind. This happens to me when i was playing the story mode of BlazBlue CentralFiction. I was emotionally invested in Celica's story back from when ChronoPhantasma. She is cute, innocent, and really impacted the story in her own way. And, when she suddenly disappears midway through the story of CentralFiction, i felt sad and almost cried, though like Ragna, i held my will together. |
| It's time to play the Game folks! |
| It's called bad writing. Show the viewer why they should care instead of getting to the emotional "payoff" and crutching on presentation. |
| Yeah, pretty much. Very few anime actually make me care so whenever the teh feelz melodrama comes up I just roll my eyes and lower my score a few points. It's why Clannad, Angel Beats, and Madoka failed to me. Jun Maeda is the worst. |
| Do you have any examples? I can't recall any anime that immediately switched to A Lot of Sadness without any narrative coherence. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Idk, if it works I cry and get that sweet catharsis I came for. I see no reason why I shouldn't be happy about that. If it wasn't well written I'll just remember it less fondly over time when the emotional impact dissipates and just the memories of the actual events and how they were written remains, but none of that matters while I cry. I'll still always give a show that made me cry a higher rating because I do enjoy that sweet catharsis, but I'll also give a show a lower rating if I think it was badly written or directed and the characters were shitty so those usually balance themselves out one way or the other. If I show fails to manipulate me into being emotional despite obviously trying hard it usually is a double fail. It failed to be well-written and directed and not just feels-bait, and on top of it it even failed at the feels part for which it sacrificed its integrity. That's why people are usually very harsh when they fail to connect with an emotional show. I'd say too harsh in general, insulting people for whom it worked as 'stupid enough to be manipulated' and stuff like that. But the fans of those shows often behave like assclowns towards the people who didn't share their feels as well. Idk how often I saw Clannad fanns call people 'emotionless' because they didn't like their show. People do enjoy feeling superior both because they did and did not feel emotions at a certain scene, it's kinda funny. |
AlcoholicideApr 27, 2017 8:29 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| ..but you rated Clannad with 9/10 ? XD Actually some people may cry not specifically because of the character's actions, but maybe some thoughts that refer to self events or feelings that arised from them. And there's also the element of crying only when you want, if you don't already like the show it will hardly make you cry and that isn't necessarily because of bad directing or emotional manipulation. But in the end, anime is just cartoons and moving images, it can hardly translate emotion only by itself. But of course, authors are the ones who make it work in the end.. and it works easier for some people who actually want to watch drama for the drama and the feels. Nothing bad in that. |
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| It gets to me most of the time, but I always reflect afterwards whether I really care for the character or not. |
Symphyon said: kI4synVCfn7PMH4w said: Yeah, pretty much. Very few anime actually make me care so whenever the teh feelz melodrama comes up I just roll my eyes and lower my score a few points. It's why Clannad, Angel Beats, and Madoka failed to me. Jun Maeda is the worst. Madoka is written by Gen Urobuchi btw not Maeda. Just letting you a point there. Yeah, I am aware of that. I am just saying Maeda is the worst and is incapable of writing a good anime. He looks at all the other sad anime, says "I can do that too!" (Which he can't) then tries to skip straight to teh feelz without taking the steps that make him like those sad anime. He doesn't bother to develop the characters past a single trope (What else can you say about Nagisa other than she's nice or about Fuka other than she's quirky?) and just throws buckets of melodrama over it and plays sad music over it. Isn't it so sad if the characters cry and sad music plays? Teh feelz! |
romagia said: ZachM said: This sounds very tsundere.. "I-it's not like i'm sad because you told me to be sad, baka show"It makes it so you're not sad because you care about the characters and what happens to them, you're sad because the show is telling you to feel sad. I see it more and more in shows where the characters are poorly written, bland, not really warranting a connection from the viewer. Shows just create this artifical sense of emotion that you should feel sad despite having no reason to feel that way. I read that sentence so many times and tried to find the sense, nope it's nonexistent. |
Cirno9 said: a tsundere would never admit she's [in love with mc/sad because of the anime] so she would say a silly justification like [it's not like i did it for you/it's not like i'm sad because of you]romagia said: This sounds very tsundere.. "I-it's not like i'm sad because you told me to be sad, baka show" I read that sentence so many times and tried to find the sense, nope it's nonexistent. but yeh the wording might not be ideal |
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romagia said: a tsundere would never admit she's [in love with mc/sad because of the anime] so she would say a silly justification like [it's not like i did it for you/it's not like i'm sad because of you] but yeh the wording might not be ideal Uh, I understand what you wrote, it was the bold text that was nonsense. "Being sad because someone tells us..." OP should go into indepth explanation, not you c: |
Cirno9 said: OP's bolded part reminds me of a certain dating sim game called LovePlus. One of the questions you could ask the girls is "What movies do you like?", and Rinko "best girl" Kobayakawa's answer stuck with me for some reason and feels relevant here. She said she didn't like movies (i totally get you Rinko ;u;) because she feels forced to laugh at a comedy (i.e. "you're laughing because the show is telling you to be laughing" sort of thing), but she's ok with art movies. This might not be the exact quote but that's the idea, and i think OP is going through a similar thought process.romagia said: a tsundere would never admit she's [in love with mc/sad because of the anime] so she would say a silly justification like [it's not like i did it for you/it's not like i'm sad because of you] but yeh the wording might not be ideal Uh, I understand what you wrote, it was the bold text that was nonsense. "Being sad because someone tells us..." OP should go into indepth explanation, not you c: |
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| @Cirno9 ZachM said: Rather than let their characters carry the weight of every scene, such as a very dramatic and tense or even heartbreaking moment, they just change the tone to be sad to almost manipulate you into feeling emotion when you otherwise wouldn't have. They use things like sad music or upped animation quality almost as a crutch to carry the scene. It makes it so you're not sad because you care about the characters and what happens to them, I see it more and more in shows where the characters are poorly written, bland, not really warranting a connection from the viewer. I think he explained himself pretty well. I cut out the parts that might have lost meaning out of context. Hes generally wondering how different people can have different emotional responses to some events in shows. Kinda demanding from people to appreciate the effort put into the works of more capable authors and not cheap hacks. Like he doesnt cry looking at some random pics of dead children but cries at well crafted stories leading to/telling the lives of these dead children. |
| Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
romagia said: Cirno9 said: OP's bolded part reminds me of a certain dating sim game called LovePlus. One of the questions you could ask the girls is "What movies do you like?", and Rinko "best girl" Kobayakawa's answer stuck with me for some reason and feels relevant here. She said she didn't like movies (i totally get you Rinko ;u;) because she feels forced to laugh at a comedy (i.e. "you're laughing because the show is telling you to be laughing" sort of thing), but she's ok with art movies. This might not be the exact quote but that's the idea, and i think OP is going through a similar thought process.Uh, I understand what you wrote, it was the bold text that was nonsense. "Being sad because someone tells us..." OP should go into indepth explanation, not you c: So basically, OP and tsunderes are both thinking irrational. @DEGOZAURUS (change your name back ffs) Thing is, it's the authors job to manipulate our feels, adding music and such to emphasize a sad scene is nothing new and OP is just bitching because he cried when a not so "good" character died. :^) |
| You don't find this in just anime, it's an overused trick in "real" movies and series as well. I'm pretty used to it by now, so I don't really let it annoy me. It takes a lot for me to cry or really care though. |
| Fucking anime tricking me into thinking I have feelings and shit. |
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Pullman said: Idk, if it works I cry and get that sweet catharsis I came for. I see no reason why I shouldn't be happy about that. If it wasn't well written I'll just remember it less fondly over time when the emotional impact dissipates and just the memories of the actual events and how they were written remains, but none of that matters while I cry. I'll still always give a show that made me cry a higher rating because I do enjoy that sweet catharsis, but I'll also give a show a lower rating if I think it was badly written or directed and the characters were shitty so those usually balance themselves out one way or the other. If I show fails to manipulate me into being emotional despite obviously trying hard it usually is a double fail. It failed to be well-written and directed and not just feels-bait, and on top of it it even failed at the feels part for which it sacrificed its integrity. That's why people are usually very harsh when they fail to connect with an emotional show. I'd say too harsh in general, insulting people for whom it worked as 'stupid enough to be manipulated' and stuff like that. But the fans of those shows often behave like assclowns towards the people who didn't share their feels as well. Idk how often I saw Clannad fanns call people 'emotionless' because they didn't like their show. People do enjoy feeling superior both because they did and did not feel emotions at a certain scene, it's kinda funny. I think that as you become more critical and more experienced, you know better to distinguish between manipulation and moments with serious, deep emotional content. Once you do, those serious moments have a bigger impact than anything. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| If it's blunt obvious that an anime will have dramatic ending, it kinda spoils the 'feel' and make it far less dramatic for me to appreciate. Best example here is probably Plastic Memories. So IMO, it depends on how these drama animes will deliver their emotional roller coaster storyline. |
TheBrainintheJar said: I think that as you become more critical and more experienced, you know better to distinguish between manipulation and moments with serious, deep emotional content. Once you do, those serious moments have a bigger impact than anything. Not necessarily. Experience and critical skills do not predefine the path you are going to follow with a medium, which is left to your subjectivity. The idea that you get more "sophisticated" as a viewer and your emotions can only be properly triggered through stuff you find intellectually stimulating in one way or the other ("deep") is not only false as a generalization and an absurd preconception, but you may find out that it's just a phase before you embrace the essence of raw and gut-driven emotions again. |
| "Emotional manipulation" tends to be a phrase people use to say "it seems it was supposed to invoke emotion in me but didn't work." There are certainly series I feel tried to strike an emotional chord that left me feeling nothing except for displeasure, but I tend to understand why better in context. In most cases, series where that appears to be the driving force and do not offer much else tend to fail in that regard for me, like all of Keys' slice of life crap. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| There is nothing wrong with getting emotional to certain scenes. And there is nothing wrong with trying to manipulate the feelings of the viewer. As a writer, some moments you want the consumer to feel a certain way to get the impact of the scene. There are moments like in Mirai nikki, where x character will be raped in her past to get some kind of emotional backstory for dramatic effect. However, it is done very poorly so it failed in my eyes. Some emotional scenes should have build up and not some jarring tonal shift. People always complain about characters having edgy backstories which is so stupid to me. What matters is how that backstory effects their character at key moments and tie into the overall feeling of the story. Pathos is probably my favorite part of any story. |
| There's this thing caled empathy, and it's the "ability" of understanding what others are going through up to an emotional level. Some people don't really need to be connected to a character to cry for them. Just understanding how horrible is whatever that character is going through is enough for them to be filled with feels and cry as a result. |
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
jal90 said: TheBrainintheJar said: I think that as you become more critical and more experienced, you know better to distinguish between manipulation and moments with serious, deep emotional content. Once you do, those serious moments have a bigger impact than anything. Not necessarily. Experience and critical skills do not predefine the path you are going to follow with a medium, which is left to your subjectivity. The idea that you get more "sophisticated" as a viewer and your emotions can only be properly triggered through stuff you find intellectually stimulating in one way or the other ("deep") is not only false as a generalization and an absurd preconception, but you may find out that it's just a phase before you embrace the essence of raw and gut-driven emotions again. 'Intellectual stimulating' isn't really the term I'd use. Rather, you'd take in all of the anime, be better at understanding it and will have some kind of basis for your emotions. Not any death makes you sad, but when a meaningful death makes you sad you know how meaning the sadness it - and that makes it powerful. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
codephat said: It's called bad writing. Show the viewer why they should care instead of getting to the emotional "payoff" and crutching on presentation. This is very much true. Stories that build up for an ultimate sad moment don't usually work out for me. What does it for me are those that present genuine catharsis through sympathetic characters and strong writing. |
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15poundfish said: Its because the music plays a huge part in making the viewer cry. Angel beats has a bad story but it has a great sound score that complements its tear jerker. You don't really need to know much about the character to cry for them. all it really takes is good music and good presentation. In the Movie Up, I definitely felt the feels in the montage scene at the start when I first watched the film. This, and I like the example a lot. Angel Beats works almost exclusively through its presentation. Fitting soundtrack and impressive visuals, not just in the effects but in the imagery, which I find very powerful and iconic. Its style serves the emotional discourse so well, to the point it doesn't need a properly developed context to make cry. |
15poundfish said: Its because the music plays a huge part in making the viewer cry. Angel beats has a bad story but it has a great sound score that complements its tear jerker. You don't really need to know much about the character to cry for them. all it really takes is good music and good presentation. In the Movie Up, I definitely felt the feels in the montage scene at the start when I first watched the film. You still some kind of character though. Part of what made this romance so affecting was the early scene, where we see they're two weirdos who find each other. In a way, this is a romance we all wish we could find. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| I don't have feelings towards colours and lines on my screen. |
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