Should Britain leave the European Union?
They should leave
40.2%
78
They should leave but won't
16.0%
31
They should stay
27.8%
54
They should stay but won't
16.0%
31
194 votes
JustALEX said: Not sure what's going on in UK....but goddamn, it looks like quite the shit show... And now that England is out of Euros.....there's nothing to talk about BUT Brexit... Welp, you guys voted for this, now you gotta live with it, good luck. Honestly aside from the praise of those in support of leaving, it sounds like Britain just dodged a huge bullet, if this superstate business comes out to be true. |
Noboru said: Oh and the UK has lost its last AAA Rating from Standard & Poors. So much for without the Euro, you can reach financial Stability. Short-term result. It's not the end of the world and it will fix itself once this storm blows over, which at the rate this is going could take a while. |
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| Finance minister George Osborne said on Tuesday that Britain would have to raise taxes and cut spending to deal with the economic challenge posed after Britons voted to leave the European Union. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-osbrne-budget-idUSKCN0ZE0JA i do not think this bad economy of UK is just for the short-term when they are gonna raise taxes and cut spending as some economist studying this Brexit says this will leave a lasting impact on the economy of Britain for years to come |
j0x said: i do not think this bad economy of UK is just for the short-term when they are gonna raise taxes and cut spending Of course you are gonna say that. I'd appreciate it if you could specify some economists who are predicting this fearmongering. As for George Osborne, he is another politician in bed with Rupert Murdoch in favour of screwing general public thus the unpopularity. |
| No way to recall What it was that you had said to me Like I care at all But it was so loud And you sure could yell You took a stand on every little thing And it was so loud |
Syndromic said: j0x said: i do not think this bad economy of UK is just for the short-term when they are gonna raise taxes and cut spending Of course you are gonna say that. I'd appreciate it if you could specify some economists who are predicting this fearmongering. As for George Osborne, he is another politician in bed with Rupert Murdoch in favour of screwing general public thus the unpopularity. here its also fresh news http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession |
j0x said: here its also fresh news http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession Sounds like a biased article. The Vox seems to be in favour of remain. Another article reads like a desperation to justify the second referendum. Soooo... meaningless argument heaped to justify Brexit as the worst thing to happen ever. http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12031254/no-brexit-article-50 And George Osborne is probably the last person to listen for the financial advice. |
| No way to recall What it was that you had said to me Like I care at all But it was so loud And you sure could yell You took a stand on every little thing And it was so loud |
Syndromic said: j0x said: here its also fresh news http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession Sounds like a biased article. The Vox seems to be in favour of remain. Another article reads like a desperation to justify the second referendum. Soooo... meaningless argument heaped to justify Brexit as the worst thing to happen ever. http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12031254/no-brexit-article-50 And George Osborne is probably the last person to listen for the financial advice. is this bias too? lol i guess you will say yes since london is the remain camp found the article i read first about this long term slow growth or recession because of Brexit http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-23/brexit-vote-would-mean-a-uk-recession-report-finds/7537632 so basically anything in the remain camp is bias while the leave camp is bias too or not? |
j0x said: You know what the problem with remainers is? Consistent fearmongering, doom and gloom, nihilistic rambling articles especially in the month of June. I cannot even trust the mainstream news any more. Perhaps rather than worrying about recession better worry about their credibility plunging down.Snip Rupert Murdoch has a great control over Australian TV Network, so I trust it even less. Sorry to say ABC is not that reliable any more. |
| No way to recall What it was that you had said to me Like I care at all But it was so loud And you sure could yell You took a stand on every little thing And it was so loud |
| Only rained for about 20 minutes today.There appears to be a giant yellow ball in the sky. Something is seriously wrong. |
fuck everything and rumble |
Syndromic said: j0x said: You know what the problem with remainers is? Consistent fearmongering, doom and gloom, nihilistic rambling articles especially in the month of June. I cannot even trust the mainstream news any more. Perhaps rather than worrying about recession better worry about their credibility plunging down.Snip Rupert Murdoch has a great control over Australian TV Network, so I trust it even less. Sorry to say ABC is not that reliable any more. its actually not fearmongering like you claim it to be though this Brexit may have given the UK freedom (whatever that is) but in exchange for uncertain economic future this sites you are bashing like Vox and ABC are just reporting what the economists are saying even the World Economic Forum is reporting the same of what this economists are saying https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/what-would-brexit-mean-for-the-uk-economy/ the point is the economic future of UK and the rest of the world is now uncertain and UK will gamble a lot on the next few months and years just to get some of those trade agreements back i guess you are just interpreting this reported uncertain economic future as fearmongering |
degJun 28, 2016 2:23 PM
StillGleaming said: Only rained for about 20 minutes today.There appears to be a giant yellow ball in the sky. Something is seriously wrong. Just wait till theres dogs and cats living together and mass hysteria |
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RychesShadows said: StillGleaming said: Only rained for about 20 minutes today.There appears to be a giant yellow ball in the sky. Something is seriously wrong. Raining much more today though...... Speaking of the Brexit, did anyone watch Nigel Farages speech yesterday in which he referred to people in the European Parliament "never working a proper job in their lives" ? here it is |
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| Yes I saw that yesterday. Read about it in some news site online and then looked at YouTube. I laughed at that guy. Arrogant asshole and troll. Schulz is doing a good job as president of the parliament in keeping order and trying to calm down the others. It is pretty obvious that the Farage guy is a demagogue and only looking for his own interests. |
| It's so hard to wait, damn. I just want to rub it in everyone's face on how the pound is actually regaining all the lost ground, but it's so hard to wait. I mean, you never get this opportunity again because people forget about it. But still, waiting a month or two is just painful.  So here I am, laughing at the pseudo-economists over here. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| @Yudina Regaining "all" lost ground is not accurate. Are tenses hard?on how the pound is actually regaining all the lost ground It is regaining it, it did not regain it all yet. The GDP/USD is still at its lowest levels in decades and two days of market rallies haven't changed that. Sorry, these changes do not happen in 3 days, and to that... I find it strange that both sides are quick to jump on the other based on just four days of market activity I can do so because people here are the ones that used it as an argument in the first place.It's called, using the oppositions logic against them. If this sudden fall shows how the UK is entering a recession and the UK is dying out and shit, that means it increasing steadily and regaining ground should be a counter argument. Both stances are idiotic, it's all about who does it first. Being an economist simply means drawing reasonable (note: reasonable does not mean fullproof) forecasts and drawing conclusions about what kind of behavior, metrics, and factors determine supply and demand and why people make the choices that they make. You bemoan the idea of using data based on the few days after Brexit happened yet you agree that we can draw reasonable forecasts based on this data.Oh and, hypotheses on what COULD have happened. I should reply to your other post sometime, it has an example of the above that you yourself used. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| @Yudina the implication people will think from that sentence is that the pound has significantly regained its losses from last Thursday and Friday No, and I have the best argument against this statement of yours.It's called grammar and I already pointed it out in the reply you quoted. It sucks, because that means the world is uncertain, but that's how it has to be. All your rambling is saying the same thing. In the end we can sum it up like this, economists make up shit with little information based on nothing actually happening but on shoulds and old data that is not necessarily related, which still sum up to "shoulds". First you correlate then you wait and see if you got it right. How convenient...Is Brexit going to murder us in our sleep or not? I'm honestly curious. I'm sure your next prediction will tell me. Hopefully. That just leads to uninformed discussion by both sides and doesn't lead to true understanding. Then people are daft, they suddenly forget what they've said two posts ago.I'd rather see people rationally discussing what should be done now that the vote's been cast. Literally let them continue doing what they were doing until now, just with the extra hassles of interacting with the EU for trade agreements. There, I fixed the socio-economic-political issues. Second, yes, I do agree we can draw reasonable forecasts from data, but look at every study that I've cited. These put together multiple data points that draw from years of information. Which most had nothing to do with Brexit. Or were suppositions on shit that never happened. E.g. this table here: I'm sure I've heard the word "predicted" a few hundred thousand times already. Any predictions I've made on the market are based on what I think the market will do, not what the economy is going to do. Those are completely different things. So basically, you were arguing pointlessly all this whole thread. You've shown that there's basically no conclusion to this because everything you've pointed out was actually based on no real palpable evidence, as shown above, for example.What are the chances that your "predictions" will actually happen? Do they even have any chances at all or...? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Reading this thread makes me realise how little I know on macro economics. But then again, 99% of those who voted in GB (from both sides) probably know little if anything at all on the economical (or other) implications of their choice. I wonder why Cameron thought it'd be a good idea to allow the general public to make such a decision. In working democracies, it's generally a group of elected/appointed people (deputies, senators etc) who make these. |
| @Yudina I'm not sure what any of this is saying. First of all, no economists don't make things up. Yes they do, you yourself are saying that these are just predictions that can be entirely wrong. You have no type of confidence in your own argument and your argument relies on SHOULDS that do not even have valid support. There's a wealth of information that's out there to analyze and backtest. If you think I'm actually talking about the AMOUNT of information, you must have little to no idea how arguments work. There's little VALID information, there being a plethora of information is fine and dandy, too bad none of it is helping us get to a conclusion, except, we're only getting predictions from you.Economists have statistical tools to analyze correlations and use them to make reasonable arguments as to whether a correlation is important enough to throw in. From interest rates to government spending to fiscal austerity, economists generally have a good understanding based on historical datasets to know what are the likely outcomes. Saying that these are predictions doesn't do away with the fact that they are often relied upon and used to draft fiscal budgets and make government decisions on a day to basis. Just because they aren't for sure claims, which nothing about the future ever is, doesn't make them useless. Yet nothing of what you said in this thread helps in any way. Maybe we really need an expert around here, because you are backtracking and "predicting" in every little paragraph.You yourself said (after I pointed it out) that it's likely that there's little confidence in the pound because people are daft, and lo and behold, it seems that coincidentally, what people invested in fell in price while the pound is gaining ground again, that's one prediction you got right because this is literally the 101 first step of a huge political change. This is just ridiculous. The British paid to be a part of the union, as nothing in this world is free, and to just say that the status quo be maintained without a single payment would be inadvisable. They'll fuck themselves over if they even dare propose tariffs for the UK. In addition, the EU gives money to Wales, to Scotland, and to Cornwall for infrastructure and aid, not to mention the inherent business in exports, innovation, and access to credit and direct investment. Yeah, and how relevant are they? This is the pending question that in this whole thread you've forgot to answer for me. Are you essentially saying that the EU gives the British free capital and trade without the UK contributing anything? If you are, then you are essentially advocating for a true welfare state, where EU countries pay for Britain to receive these benefits for free. They don't need any of their money, what they need are trade agreements sans tariffs. These are the kind of solutions I'm always concerned about it. It demonstrates that people haven't really thought the issues through and/or don't have any reasonable solutions to the problem. Yet you did not even mention how relevant these EU investments really are. I'm not sure what you're talking about. We were talking about how the EU has been beneficial to the British economy. This is models what GDP/capita would have looked like had the British not joined the EU. Not HOW it would have looked like, how SUPPOSEDLY it would have looked like. It's called a "what if", and I don't see any relevant data supporting that table either.Unless you have some informed knowledge on what would have happened had the British economy not joined the EU, I think the most reasonable thing to do is to read studies and models made by reputable economists and institutions that have allshown that the UK has done better within the EU than it would have had it not been in the union. It's actually your job to present an argument that portrays this. I don't need to "educate myself" because you think throwing in random anonymous authorities is enough to support your whole stance while implying people are ignorant, that's simply not how it works.For now, you have yet to get past the part in which "expert economists" (which you have yet to name) have "valid predictions" (AKA supported by data and a high PROBABILITY and not chance of actually happening) about Brexit and your table. Is data, models, and research, not evidence? They can be invalid too.Evidence does not mean that it proves something without a doubt, but merely points to a conclusion that we may say is more correct than the other. The quality of the evidence matters too. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Luthandorius said: Yes I saw that yesterday. Read about it in some news site online and then looked at YouTube. I laughed at that guy. Arrogant asshole and troll. Schulz is doing a good job as president of the parliament in keeping order and trying to calm down the others. It is pretty obvious that the Farage guy is a demagogue and only looking for his own interests.  Lol bunch of unelected bureaucrats with weak chins and when democracy works and the people are heard Farage gets to be a demagogue. |
| You clearly don't know how the EU works. He was talking to the parliament - and the members there were elected. And I doubt democracy in the UK works ... otherwise they would have invoked article 50 already but they are playing on time. Maybe they don't leave after all. |
AxBattler said: Don't worry about it, as I'm getting tired of this one Topic that may or may not be a big Thing only when it might be too late. I'll respond to your Answer in #747 to hopefully clear the remaining Differences.I don't have time to read the hundreds of reply since my last post here, but I suppose that I should at least reply to the post below. By and large, I have no real intention getting into long discussion. I am quite busy lately, and it seems like discussion in the outcome quickly dissolves into mud slinging anyway. So far, I can clearly see that we're both on the same Page about about our Positions. It's just the Definition to the Questions 1) "What is democratic?" and 2) "What is the Will of the People?" where we stray apart. You're right, we don't know about the Numbers of Protest Voters, so the Link about the Search Results should be taken as an Indication or as a Clue at best. The Problem I have with the Referendum is first of all, that I find it doubtful whether the 52% were surely the Will of the British People or not. There is the Possibility that lots of People were misinformed or did the Vote out of Protest, like you've already mentioned. Also, there's a Reason why good Referendums require having a significant Majority instead of a simple one alone. It's to exclude potential Mistakes with the Vote Counting and to make one Camp powerful enough that the other one would admit their Loss. Even assuming the 52% were truly and surely genuine, there would be the Issue left with how it would be distributed. Scotland voted majorly against, so the Scottish Parliament would need to reject the Proposal to abide by the Will of their People. However, while doing so, they would also go against the Will of the whole British People. As to what is democratic, I'd argue that it is democratic as long as People can freely elect Representatives, who act in the Will, Interest and Good of the People, which can be better than being potentially influenced through either Side of the Campaign, which I don't believe occurs that intensively with those, who have it as a Profession. Yes, there might be MPs who make disastrous Decisions, but the Power is still limited to several hundred People so that it shouldn't be that much of an Issue. I don't think that the MPs have to come to the same Conclusion as one single, official Result of a Referendum to picture the Will of the Majority. They may get what they really want (stable Jobs, Housings, etc.) with the Option they don't want to come through, so it's more about finding out what the true Wishes are or what the Populations hopes to achieve with a certain Result when dealing with a Referendum. There are indeed some Things where I can more than relate to why People would vote for a Phase of Uncertainty and potentially less deeply integrated Trade Links. How the CETA Agreement is planned to be enforced is a Matter of Concern to me as well, where it's getting harder and harder to continue believing in having the EU as an Alliance of Convenience. But all in all, nothing's set in Stone, yet. There can be completely different Results after more Negotiations with how the EU should be lead and how it should deal with other Countries that could tilt the Sentiments about the EU into the one or the other Direction. We just have to wait and see. It's great if you're not as affected and I hope, that there won't be any major Trouble on either Side of the North Sea, regardless what will be decided or not. |
NoboruJun 30, 2016 12:34 PM
Luthandorius said: Well democracy in the UK does work, that's an unrelated point to make, and it doesn't make sense to try and connect that to the brexit decision. And yeah why wouldn't they play on time to get the best deal? Countries we trade with will miss a fat chunk of money from us too if they don't negotiate. You clearly don't know how the EU works. He was talking to the parliament - and the members there were elected. And I doubt democracy in the UK works ... otherwise they would have invoked article 50 already but they are playing on time. Maybe they don't leave after all. But yes, they were mep's, and they technically have no power to change anything, however many are completely against democracy personally. I personally don't think it matters who he addresses, since that's where voices are meant to be heard in the EU. But there are too many times where democracy doesn't work so it makes your moaning about Farage pointless. Someone in the EU is going against what people want and vote for, no matter how much people still defend the EU. EU Dutch referendum scandal ^ Video explaining the democracy problem within the EU |
Dick_DawkinsJun 30, 2016 1:12 PM
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| @Noboru There is the Possibility that lots of People were misinformed or did the Vote out of Protest, like you've already mentioned This doesn't change that it's still the will of the people. Otherwise no vote is ever valid because you don't know every bit of information possible. Not like it matters, Leave is the best option. Scotland voted majorly against, so the Scottish Parliament would need to reject the Proposal to abide by the Will of their People. They have no power, until they detach themselves from the UK (If they have the balls to do that). They're not a sovereign state, so they will abide.That's the will of the people. I don't think that the MPs have to come to the same Conclusion as one single, official Result of a Referendum to picture the Will of the Majority. You not agreeing with the results of a referendum does not make the system not work.You guys are starting to become rather pathetic. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: How can you be so sure about that? Also, I'd prefer to have a significant Majority (at least 60%) in Decisions (or actually: just Recommendations) that change the Status Quo.There is the Possibility that lots of People were misinformed or did the Vote out of Protest, like you've already mentioned This doesn't change that it's still the will of the people.Not like it matters, Leave is the best option. Because?Scotland voted majorly against, so the Scottish Parliament would need to reject the Proposal to abide by the Will of their People. They have no power, until they detach themselves from the UK (If they have the balls to do that). They're not a sovereign state, so they will abide.You not agreeing with the results of a referendum does not make the system not work. I'm not agreeing with how the Referendum was set up. For one, 16 Years old should have been allowed to vote like in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Then there should be a clear Majority of at least 60% to change the Status Quo. |
| @Noboru How can you be so sure about that? Also, I'd prefer to have a significant Majority (at least 60%) in Decisions (or actually: just Recommendations) that change the Status Quo. Your preferences are irrelevant though and the "will of the people" remains the majority, which in our case, the majority was for "Leave".How am I so sure though? The 52% that voted for Leave. If people didn't vote for whatever reason, tough luck. This referendum was also one of the popular ones in a whole bunch of years. Because? Because the EU is shit, the UK would do better without.Wow, then we can also abolish all regional and communal Parliaments and just have the Central Parliament in Westminster decide about all Matters in the UK. So until now, you thought that the communal parliaments could suddenly decide not to abide by a nationwide referendum or something?You think that Scotland could just be like "Lolno, we don't want to leave and that's final." or something? Get back to reality. I'm not agreeing with how the Referendum was set up. For one, 16 Years old should have been allowed to vote like in the Scottish Independence Referendum. And you want this because...? Why not let 15 year olds do it too? Or 14 year olds?Or 12 year olds? Then there should be a clear Majority of at least 60% to change the Status Quo. 52% is higher than 50%, it's a clear majority. Unless you're really confused about 52 > 48. Maybe basic math makes the situation unclear for you... Is this why you brought up 16 year olds right now? Do they also have math issues of this magnitude? I think you just don't like the results, Noboru. I see you're from Germany, are you part of any organ of the EU? |
ImmahnoobJun 30, 2016 3:30 PM
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: It's more accurate to write that a slight Majority seems to have chosen the "Leave" Option. Whether everyone, who voted for that, really wanted to leave or still want to do so, even with the broken Promises, is another Matter altogether. Also, at least ~ 4 Mio People seem to share my Opinion. Maybe not everyone is a legit Vote, but I haven't seen any major Drawbacks in the last Time, so this Number should be roughly legit.Your preferences are irrelevant though and the "will of the people" remains the majority, which in our case, the majority was for "Leave". Because the EU is shit, the UK would do better without. That Statement is based on what?You think that Scotland could just be like "Lolno, we don't want to leave and that's final." or something? Get back to reality. Well, that's how I understood the political System that a regional Parliament with enough Power could veto Decisions. Besides, the Voting isn't even legally binding, so yes, they can.I wanted 16 Years to vote in Order to have the same Conditions as for the Scotland Referendum. I think you just don't like the results, Noboru. I see you're from Germany, are you part of any organ of the EU? Haha, it's true that I don't like the Results, but requiring a significant Majority would show more clearly whether the People would really wish to leave the EU. I'm aware that even 50.56% would have been higher than 49.44%, however, that would have made the Decision even more dubious. Also, I'm not in any Way affiliated with the EU just for arguing for it and I also seem some Points where I can relate to the other Position. It just appears to be the lesser Evil to me. |
Immahnoob said: It's so hard to wait, damn. I just want to rub it in everyone's face on how the pound is actually regaining all the lost ground, but it's so hard to wait. Hey, seems like you jumped a bit too fast to conclusions there. The pound is now falling again (wiping away any sort of recovery from earlier this week). |
AgafinJun 30, 2016 11:42 PM
| The people that are against the EU should also be against the USA or UK. For USA the different states also should leave then - they probably also are "controlled" by the presidend and the overall US country (similar to EU ... even with more powers to the central government). Same for UK with Scotland (and North Ireland, Wales and England). If you say there is no democracy then you need to criticize USA and UK as well. Would otherwise make no sense. But you won't do it. Because it is more like "the EU did stuff I didn't like". And as long as the other countries do onyl stuff you personally like you won't complain. But that is not how democracy works. Majority decides and sometimes the minority won't like stuff the majority decides. I think it is okay - since all nations are free to leave the EU. Might be even less democratic for UK ... probably more trouble. I want to see what happens when Scotland wants to get independent ... they might try to "force" them to stay - just because there is no real law that allows them to leave. Yes I read this with the Dutch referendum scandal. And it probably was a case where majority decides - and all others could override the Dutch. Council and Parliament where mentioned - and they normally make the EU laws (was probably no exceptional case so it was like that in this case). I agree: For some cases it is bad and all countries by themselves should decide. If it is about being a member in the EU all countries should hold referendums (a lot only let their parliaments decided). But that is up to the countries. If there is no referendum then complain to your local government in your country. If a referendum vote of the Dutch did not count ... it is their fault for agreeing to the Treaty of Lisbon and joining the EU. They knew there might be such cases. So they should accept it - or leave. Of course they also can complain. Freedom of Speech. But it won't change anything. If always you require all countries to agree it might be impossible to make laws. You need to reserve this for some special cases. If they wanted such a case to be special the Dutch would have needed to say so before signing the Treaty of Lisbon. |
| @Noboru It's more accurate to write that a slight Majority seems to have chosen the "Leave" Option. Which is a majority, and rather a clear one at that. Whether everyone There you are. Turnout again, right?Well, sorry to tell you, but by your logic, no vote is valid because some people do not want to vote. What's funnier is that the turnout was the highest in quite a bit of time for the UK. 72% of eligible voters have voted in the Brexit campaign. That Statement is based on what? Facts.Well, that's how I understood the political System that a regional Parliament with enough Power could veto Decisions. Besides, the Voting isn't even legally binding, so yes, they can. The Parliament is forced by the constitution to vote in favor or not. The will of the people remains for Leave, so if you think they'll commit political suicide, that's ok, I have no way to stop you thinking that.As for Scotland/Ireland, no, they don't have any power. First of, "regional Parliament" as a function and even as a term is obsolete in the UK. Secondly, Scotland/Ireland isn't a majority of the Parliament. I wanted 16 Years to vote in Order to have the same Conditions as for the Scotland Referendum. Why? So it's easier for me to break your argument?You claim that misinformation is enough for a vote to be iffy, then you claim we should let 16 year olds vote. How does that concord with your previous statements? Haha, it's true that I don't like the Results, but requiring a significant Majority would show more clearly whether the People would really wish to leave the EU. No, it still does not "show more clearly" if the UK wants to leave or not, because there's nothing more clear than "majority".I'm aware that even 50.56% would have been higher than 49.44%, however, that would have made the Decision even more dubious. Still wouldn't.Also, I'm not in any Way affiliated with the EU just for arguing for it and I also seem some Points where I can relate to the other Position. It just appears to be the lesser Evil to me. How is it the lesser evil? I think this is a perfect case in which security took away liberty, which is not always the case. @Agafin Hey, seems like you jumped a bit too fast to conclusions there. The pound is now falling again (wiping away any sort of recovery from earlier this week). Didn't reach that low, and besides, you don't want to do this since I said:Immahnoob said: I can do so because people here are the ones that used it as an argument in the first place. It's called, using the oppositions logic against them. If this sudden fall shows how the UK is entering a recession and the UK is dying out and shit, that means it increasing steadily and regaining ground should be a counter argument. Both stances are idiotic, it's all about who does it first. @Luthandorius The people that are against the EU should also be against the USA or UK. For USA the different states also should leave then - they probably also are "controlled" by the presidend and the overall US country (similar to EU ... even with more powers to the central government). We're reaching the zenith of pure unfiltered retardation in the daily MAL arguments.A faulty generalization and analogy. It's also a strawman. But you won't do it. Because it is more like "the EU did stuff I didn't like". And as long as the other countries do onyl stuff you personally like you won't complain. Another strawman.they might try to "force" them to stay - just because there is no real law that allows them to leave. When were you born? Was it after the Scotland vote? The "No" side won, with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. The turnout of 84.6% was the highest recorded for an election or referendum in the United Kingdom since the introduction of universal suffrage. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: Maybe you should stop posting then - would mean a lot less retardation on MAL.We're reaching the zenith of pure unfiltered retardation in the daily MAL arguments. |
Luthandorius said: This would have worked if my reply could be interpreted in any way besides me calling you out.Immahnoob said: Maybe you should stop posting then - would mean a lot less retardation on MAL.We're reaching the zenith of pure unfiltered retardation in the daily MAL arguments. Anyway, conceding is fine too, Luth. Who's next? |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| @Immahnoob: I prefer a Turnout with at least 3/4 of the Voters and 60% of them voting for major Decisions that change the current State to be valid. What Facts are included in "Because the EU is shit, the UK would do better without."? I don't think it is political Suicide when only 52% have voted for it. Besides, MP's are primarily bound to their own Consciousness and if they are of the Opinion, that it's better to stay in the EU, they have all the Rights to vote against the Brexit. 16 Years old are capable enough to inform themselves on the Internet. They are also supposed to have had at least some basic Education in Politics. A Majority can be dubious if the Percentages are close, but oh well, in your World it seems like the Voters only vote for the Results they really want to and there are no Mistakes with counted Votes whatsoever. The Decision to have the Referendum has divided the British Peoples and there are even more xenophopic Attacks in the UK. Plus, the Prospect of being completely out of the European Economic Area alone widens the Account Deficit and pressures the Pound further. We could have also saved ourselves the Rally on the Stockmarkets if only there weren't any Referendum or at least not in Favor of a Brexit. |
| @Noboru I prefer I think I answered this already, let me see...Immahnoob said: "Abu-bu-bu-bu, b-but this isn't the democracy I want, abu-bu-bu-bu." Your preferences are irrelevant though and the "will of the people" remains the majority and 60% of them voting for major Decisions that change the current State to be valid. Still failing at math, Noboru?What Facts are included in "Because the EU is shit, the UK would do better without."? Every fact about the EU being shit.I don't think it is political Suicide when only 52% have voted for it. So half of the population wanting to leave democratically and then the MPs refusing isn't political suicide?Drink some coffee, smell it, Noboru, then come back. they have all the Rights to vote against the Brexit. If they want political suicide, they can go for it, but the EU isn't a better choice.16 Years old are capable enough to inform themselves on the Internet. But they won't, just like most voters, Leave or Remain didn't.So your argument falls apart from every point of view. Most people would not be able to vote because they're misinformed. Besides, I don't see why anyone should care about your random suggestion. I think 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 13.5 year olds and 10.77 year olds should also vote, because reasons. Each one of them is able to read stuff on the Internet, since you learn to read at the age of 7. They are also supposed to have had at least some basic Education in Politics. Uh-hum, so that's informed for you? "Basic Education in Politics"? 16 year olds don't even touch the EU unless they're in specific schools.A Majority can be dubious if the Percentages are close No, a majority is 50%+1, that's a majority. It's a simple majority but it remains one, and it's also rather clear, I mean, math is easy, isn't it?but oh well, in your World it seems like the Voters only vote for the Results they really want to and there are no Mistakes with counted Votes whatsoever. Oh so the million Leave voters that made your side lose simply didn't want to vote Leave or had their votes misinterpreted. Based on what? The Decision to have the Referendum has divided the British Peoples and there are even more xenophopic Attacks in the UK. The Decision to have the Referendum has divided the British Peoples  Yeah, it divided them into two sides, the Leave and the Remain. Like every referendum in existence. What a statement, ladies and gentlemen. What a statement... and there are even more xenophopic Attacks in the UK. Oh look, a single case of an "attack" on an embassy, AKA graffiti. Which could have been done by anyone. And the phrase "even more" implies that you have a ton of cases before Brexit with "xenophobic attacks", which I really doubt... Are you an SJW, Noboru? the Prospect of being completely out of the European Economic Area alone widens the Account Deficit and pressures the Pound further. I believe you've been on this thread for 16 pages, if I'm not wrong on the matter. And you also seem to be, at least, to a minimum, the minimum necessary to not to have your brain shutdown from complete lack of stimulation, informed on the Brexit matter. So I'm going to ask you, did you miss all those talks about the UK negotiating for a spot in the "European Economic Area", which does include trade agreements... Or what? We've also talked about the pound until now, it's like you're not reading the thread. These negative changes were expected, and the UK will get over them. We could have also saved ourselves the Rally on the Stockmarkets if only there weren't any Referendum or at least not in Favor of a Brexit. What a funny guy. Yeah, the UK wouldn't have had any problems if only they would have stayed in the European Union, because you know, having been in a political union for about 60 years does not have any impact on the way a country functions, so if they vote out of the political union, nothing bad will happen. Except if you leave the EU, so that means you have to stay.  I really thought that young people thought about the long term, not the short term, since ya know, unlike old voters, young voters vote only for a better future. I never knew the "future" is basically, 20 years in and that's it. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Luthandorius said: What the fuck are you talking about now? The people that are against the EU should also be against the USA or UK. For USA the different states also should leave then - they probably also are "controlled" by the presidend and the overall US country (similar to EU ... even with more powers to the central government). Was it only after brexit that you're going to argue that even a democratic and independent country is actually not democratic? Luckily for everyone we wouldn't listen to you otherwise London would leave the UK as well. At least you admit the EU is undemocratic however since you say this: "If a referendum vote of the Dutch did not count ... it is their fault for agreeing to the Treaty of Lisbon and joining the EU. They knew there might be such cases. So they should accept it - or leave. Of course they also can complain. Freedom of Speech. But it won't change anything." The EU isn't a country, so when the Dutch vote didn't count they were controlled by bureaucrats. This also happened to Ireland, and their majority vote was to leave the EU. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Masked_Mantis said: I only compared it to EU since elections and stuff ... similar. If you say USA and UK are democratic I can say the same for EU. There is also a parliament.Was it only after brexit that you're going to argue that even a democratic and independent country is actually not democratic? Just because in your OPINION it is not democratic it doesn't mean that this is not the case. That is just your opinion then. All the stuff you and the other guy said is hilarious. You clearly don't know that democracy means. Yeah ... elected members of parliament are bureaucrats. Nice. Same goes for the US president - he also sits only at home in the white house in his office. |
Immahnoob said: Care to elaborate?Every fact about the EU being shit. So half of the population wanting to leave democratically and then the MPs refusing isn't political suicide? Yes, because about the other Half wants to stay. 60% would make for less equal Results where one Side would be more powerful. Do you believe major Contract Changes are fine with a simple Majority? Why do you think they require at least a 2/3 Majority in Parliament and when they do: why should it be different for a Referendum in which theoretically even a single Vote could decide the Outcome?If they want political suicide, they can go for it, but the EU isn't a better choice. I'd rather have Politicians that do a political Suicide and fight for what they believe is best for the People than those, who only let the Commoners decide. 16 Years old are capable enough to inform themselves on the Internet. But they won't, just like most voters, Leave or Remain didn't.Besides, 16 isn't random, because that's the Number that was used for the Scottish Independence Referendum. Oh so the million Leave voters that made your side lose simply didn't want to vote Leave or had their votes misinterpreted. One Million is in Relation to many Millions not as much. Think of having one Group with 50.5 Million Members fighting the other one with 49.5 Million Members. It's easier to convince the smaller Group to implement Changes if the winning Group consists of 60 Million Members, who would stand for their Decision against 40 Million Members, because otherwise it could result in a huge Stalemate between the two Powers. Yeah, it divided them into two sides, the Leave and the Remain. Your Memes are great as ever :pLike every referendum in existence. Well, we had a regional Referendum in the recent Years that also divided the People into those, who wanted the Central Station in Stuttgart being renewed as planned or who wouldn't mind it and those, who would be against it. But regardless which Party has won, it didn't cause as many Issues as the British Independence Referendum, as the Scales were completely different. There's a Difference if People stay divided over a mere Train Station or about how the Country is lead. Oh look, a single case of an "attack" on an embassy, AKA graffiti. The Article stated that the Attacks were on the Rise and no, I'm not a SJW. So I'm going to ask you, did you miss all those talks about the UK negotiating for a spot in the "European Economic Area", which does include trade agreements... Or what? 1) I wasn't there for the whole Thread, only in the Beginning and towards the End. I read the Answers, but I can't recall all Details and I answer based on my Discussion Partner(s).We've also talked about the pound until now, it's like you're not reading the thread. These negative changes were expected, and the UK will get over them. 2) The UK won't be able to negotiate unless they trigger Article 50, which gives them a Deadline of two Years to negotiate the Terms of their Relationship and if they fail completely, they will be out without any Trade Agreement. Also, prominent EU-Politicians have stated that the UK would have still to abide by the Freedom of Movement, which to restrict was one of the Key Points for the Brexit Supporters. 3) "getting over them" doesn't say anything about how well the UK will be getting over them. What a funny guy. I didn't write anywhere that they wouldn't have any Problems if they stayed in the EU, I stated that there wouldn't have been these particular Problems or at least not in that Scale. Yeah, the UK wouldn't have had any problems if only they would have stayed in the European Union, because you know, having been in a political union for about 60 years does not have any impact on the way a country functions, so if they vote out of the political union, nothing bad will happen. Except if you leave the EU, so that means you have to stay. If you leave the EU for not wanting the deeper Integration, you'd still have to compromise on some Key Points to remain in the EEA, but without any political Say. However, your Position in Negotiations will be lower if you're alone against 27 other National States. I never knew the "future" is basically, 20 years in and that's it. I'd like to see you making accurate Predictions of the economical and political Situation in the UK with three different Scenarios: 1. staying in the EU, 2. being accepted as an EEA Member and 3. leaving the European Union and the EEA. |
NoboruJul 1, 2016 11:18 AM
Luthandorius said: You can say that, but you'd still be wrong. Masked_Mantis said: I only compared it to EU since elections and stuff ... similar. If you say USA and UK are democratic I can say the same for EU. There is also a parliament.Was it only after brexit that you're going to argue that even a democratic and independent country is actually not democratic? Just because in your OPINION it is not democratic it doesn't mean that this is not the case. That is just your opinion then. All the stuff you and the other guy said is hilarious. You clearly don't know that democracy means. Yeah ... elected members of parliament are bureaucrats. Nice. Same goes for the US president - he also sits only at home in the white house in his office. Ireland vote out and other Europeans decided against them. Therefore Ireland within the EU has no democracy. Outside of the EU they do since their parliment and governments decisions go forward. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| If Ireland would leave nobody would stop them. You are making it sound like the EU forced Ireland to stay and obey when they at some point agreed to the EU. You are just making up stuff that is not true. You surely refer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2008_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland Yes they did a 2nd referendum. Huge differences in votes. That is not just "letting them vote until we get the results we want". Also the Irish government probably could just decide to not hold referendums if they did not want to join the EU. I think they made some changes to the treaty so Ireland would accept it. That actually is how democracy works. They did not force Ireland. |
Luthandorius said: They were forced to stay since their democracy was ignored. If Ireland would leave nobody would stop them. You are making it sound like the EU forced Ireland to stay and obey when they at some point agreed to the EU. You are just making up stuff that is not true. You surely refer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2008_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland Yes they did a 2nd referendum. Huge differences in votes. That is not just "letting them vote until we get the results we want". Also the Irish government probably could just decide to not hold referendums if they did not want to join the EU. I think they made some changes to the treaty so Ireland would accept it. That actually is how democracy works. They did not force Ireland. Ireland voted and the EU urged other member states to ratify their decision, leading to another referendum. How is that respecting the democratic will of Ireland? |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| They could have still voted no at the 2nd referendum. Then it woudl have been probably failed - the treaty .... or EU without Ireland (others adopting the treaty and Ireland leaving). So yes it is democracy since no one forced them to vote yes. Maybe they voted just yes because there was some "pressure" but then the pressure was like "either leave or vote yes". And they were free to leave. Nobody forced them to stay. Maybe they thought it would be more beneficial to stay - even though they did not like some stuff mentioned on the treaty. And that then made them vote yes out of their own free decision. |
| Thank God the older people got up their asses and voted. From what I've been reading lately, a significant amount of young people appears to be a bunch of spoiled crybabies that would probably support undemocratic totalitarianism if that made them look cool on Twitter. They're bitching about old people not caring what their future will be like, when those same old people fought and died in wars to protect the very country you're trying to hand over to foreigners. Anyway congrats on the Brexit, UK! You've started a domino effect in Europe that will help others shed the oppression of the globalists too. I can't wait for the rest of the EU countries to wake up and leave this sinking ship. |
Luthandorius said: Or they could have went ahead with what the people voted. Even then you're missing the key issue that experts on the EU describe as the democratic deficit. You simply don't care when other country members ratify after the result over turning an entire country. That's the reason for the second referendum which shouldn't have been. They could have still voted no at the 2nd referendum. Then it woudl have been probably failed - the treaty .... or EU without Ireland (others adopting the treaty and Ireland leaving). So yes it is democracy since no one forced them to vote yes. Maybe they voted just yes because there was some "pressure" but then the pressure was like "either leave or vote yes". And they were free to leave. Nobody forced them to stay. Maybe they thought it would be more beneficial to stay - even though they did not like some stuff mentioned on the treaty. And that then made them vote yes out of their own free decision. They are forced to stay as long as their vote is respected both in the EU structure, and their countries governmental structure. The UK is forced to stay until we have left the EU. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| @Noboru Care to elaborate? Yes, every fact about the EU being shit.Yes, because about the other Half wants to stay. No, half is 50%, what you mean is 48%, which is lesser than half and not a majority nor a parity. Don't even try, Noboru.60% would make for less equal Results where one Side would be more powerful. There is no such thing as "less equal". "Less equal" means that there's disparity, which means there's a majority and a minority.Do you believe major Contract Changes are fine with a simple Majority? Yes.why should it be different for a Referendum in which theoretically even a single Vote could decide the Outcome? Why not? Do you have any reason for why this referendum should be voted the same way like in the Parliament?Until now, all you did was tell me how you prefer things to be, AKA shit no one cares about. I'd rather have Politicians that do a political Suicide and fight for what they believe is best for the People than those, who only let the Commoners decide. You really need to move to North Korea, you can have your despots there if you want. Besides, 16 isn't random, because that's the Number that was used for the Scottish Independence Don't worry, 16 is just as random as 18. It also does not change that you are just basing all this on a preference of yours.Besides the fact that you also deem the 16 year olds unprepared by actively agreeing that the "system is broken". So your idea does not work in reality, and that's OK. Democracy was served and nothing will change that. One Million is in Relation to many Millions not as much. 72% of the people that can vote were there, 52% of these decided to remain. I'm sorry you don't like numbers, Noboru, but there's nothing you can really do, and that's great, you love despotism. it didn't cause as many Issues as the British Independence Referendum Then it wasn't as big of an issue, this is really a non-argument. The Article stated that the Attacks were on the Rise and no, I'm not a SJW. And the article didn't actually give me anything besides those words of theirs and a link to an article saying the same thing, again, without much to support it.Should I believe it? I think not. I mean, if I'd have to believe this one, I'd have to believe Black Lives Matter at this point. ) The UK won't be able to negotiate unless they trigger Article 50, which gives them a Deadline of two Years to negotiate the Terms of their Relationship and if they fail completely, they will be out without any Trade Agreement. Also, prominent EU-Politicians have stated that the UK would have still to abide by the Freedom of Movement, which to restrict was one of the Key Points for the Brexit Supporters. Yes, and they'll invoke Article 50 sometime soon. Who cares?The EU has to lose more than the UK in any case, especially if they try and force them, which is great, that means they'll get what they want, eventually. 3) "getting over them" doesn't say anything about how well the UK will be getting over them. Just as well as it did before. There's no reason for them not to.I didn't write anywhere that they wouldn't have any Problems if they stayed in the EU, I stated that there wouldn't have been these particular Problems or at least not in that Scale. No, they would have had issues, and grave ones, just not now, a bit later.The UK and Brexit thought of this in the long term, not in the short term like most of you. If you leave the EU for not wanting the deeper Integration, you'd still have to compromise on some Key Points to remain in the EEA, but without any political Say. However, your Position in Negotiations will be lower if you're alone against 27 other National States. Germany for example is dependent on the UK for some of their exports.So you really think they'll try and manhandle the UK? Please... That's another type of political suicide. I'd like to see you making accurate Predictions of the economical and political Situation in the UK with three different Scenarios: 1. staying in the EU, 2. being accepted as an EEA Member and 3. leaving the European Union and the EEA. 1. Shit, dead in 20 years. 2. If special case, great. 3. In-between. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Rarusu_ said: The Video includes the Use of a judgemental Language Style coupled with a few popular Statements to discredit the Opposition. I know you can do better than this.Appears like many of the remain advocates weren't as bright either about what the EU is and does... [yt]Bn_6sU7O43w[*/yt] @Immahnoob: Yes, every fact about the EU being shit. Like for Example? btw.: do I really have to pull out every little Word from your Nose? I can wait for the Replies, a Forum is no Instant Chat, so I would find it nice to read your Assertions with at least some Examples.No, half is 50%, what you mean is 48%, which is lesser than half and not a majority nor a parity. Which is why I wrote "about the other Half", which is only approximately or circa the Half.Would you have said the same Thing if 52% of the People in your Country decided in a non-binding Referendum to criminalize any sexual Intercourse for People over 18 Years with People under 18 Years? Why not? Do you have any reason for why this referendum should be voted the same way like in the Parliament? I told you the Reason, it's because of having the Support from the vast Majority of the Population. Imagine you live in an Apartment Block with 100 different Parties. There will be a democratic Decision about which Color to paint the Outside fresh. You have the Choice between keeping the current Shade or changing it to a Color you don't like. 72 Parties have voted, while the Rest abstained. 52% of them, that is to say ~37 Persons voted to change the Color, the Rest, 35 Persons decided to keep the current one with a fresh Paint. If there's going to be a Clash between the two major Divisions, a Fight of 37 vs 35 People looks more likely to happen than a Fight of 45 vs 30, which would be exactly the proposed Criteria of this Petition.Germany for example is dependent on the UK for some of their exports. Not as dependent as the UK for Imports and Exports as a Whole. Trade that would have gone to the UK could be re-structured through Increases in Trade Volumes within the remaining EEA Members. If the UK decided to stop trading with the Rest of the current EU Members or a Majority of European Countries, it will hit them much harder than Germany which could increase Domestic Demand instead.I'd like to see you making accurate Predictions of the economical and political Situation in the UK with three different Scenarios: 1. staying in the EU, 2. being accepted as an EEA Member and 3. leaving the European Union and the EEA. 1. Shit, dead in 20 years. 2. If special case, great. 3. In-between. |
NoboruJul 1, 2016 3:24 PM
Rarusu_ said: I can't handle how cute that guy is :3 Why can't all hot guys have a brain between their ears? I know so many useless softie hipsters who would rather sell their own country than eat a fucking meat product.Appears like many of the remain advocates weren't as bright either about what the EU is and does... |
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