Koutetsujou no Kabaneri Episode 8 Discussion

Jun 4, 2016 5:40 PM

Offline

Jan 2011

1073

Biba is "funny". He asks Mumei to get the master key from Ayame, turning down *her* question, and Mumei turns down Ayame's questions and threatens her. And then he's like "oh, looks like they don't trust us". At least he didn't abuse the situation and say "looks like they don't trust you Mumei" or so.

Anyways, it can't be good what he wants with the master key. I assume the master key can only be used on the appropriate train, so the only thing you can use it for on another train is to deny the option to use it.

Basically, he wants control. Not only is he not man enough to get the key himself, he's not man enough to demand in beforehand when they have an option to turn him down and escape. No, he waits until the trains are coupled and sends Mumei. And given all this, i can't imagine him wanting to prevent the others from disenganging when he as experienced warrior knows that it would be a bad choice to split forces etc., no, he'll surely plan to use them as bait or something like that.

Smiling and or killing that one guy is one thing, i don't think that sort of behaviour is all that bad given the world they live in etc, but that about the master key showed his true nature.

Jun 4, 2016 5:47 PM

#252

Darklight0303

Offline

Apr 2008

11325

NwAurion said:
Biba is "funny". He asks Mumei to get the master key from Ayame, turning down *her* question, and Mumei turns down Ayame's questions and threatens her. And then he's like "oh, looks like they don't trust us". At least he didn't abuse the situation and say "looks like they don't trust you Mumei" or so.

Anyways, it can't be good what he wants with the master key. I assume the master key can only be used on the appropriate train, so the only thing you can use it for on another train is to deny the option to use it.

Basically, he wants control. Not only is he not man enough to get the key himself, he's not man enough to demand in beforehand when they have an option to turn him down and escape. No, he waits until the trains are coupled and sends Mumei. And given all this, i can't imagine him wanting to prevent the others from disenganging when he as experienced warrior knows that it would be a bad choice to split forces etc., no, he'll surely plan to use them as bait or something like that.

Smiling and or killing that one guy is one thing, i don't think that sort of behaviour is all that bad given the world they live in etc, but that about the master key showed his true nature.

The plan with the key was made to gain Biba something regardless the outcome. With what happened, he has successfully turned Mumei against the Kotetsujou crew. You say he didn't abuse the situation but that's exactly what he did. They LIED do you. That's what he told Mumei.

If he had the key, the Kotetsujou would NOT be able to detach their train from Biba's. It's as simple as that.

Jun 4, 2016 6:00 PM

#253

1290349450394a

Offline

Oct 2013

246

KoreaWS said:

Including new characters for that purpose is risky, since you are just adding more one note characters. They will, therefore, feel more like tools that characters, considering that fleshing them out takes time.

It is an interesting idea, but I think KnK can't really do that much with the time it has left.

That's true. I don't think they will follow through with all of that with the time left. Things could get more layered and complex with a second season, but unless it's promised to them before hand I think it will all be quite rushed, which is unfortunate.

I couldn't think of anything cool to put here.

Jun 4, 2016 8:47 PM

#254

Elanin

Offline

May 2016

13910

It was so funny how Mumei got trolled with the key xD I wonder now if Biba has this technology to transform humans to kabaneries if he did that on himself as well..

V I S I T

M Y

【P R O F I L E 💕】

Jun 4, 2016 9:08 PM

#255

moncikoma

Offline

Oct 2010

171

tinybunnvevo said:

KoreaWS said:

Including new characters for that purpose is risky, since you are just adding more one note characters. They will, therefore, feel more like tools that characters, considering that fleshing them out takes time.

It is an interesting idea, but I think KnK can't really do that much with the time it has left.

That's true. I don't think they will follow through with all of that with the time left. Things could get more layered and complex with a second season, but unless it's promised to them before hand I think it will all be quite rushed, which is unfortunate.

unless they will make a movie.. a 2nd season is a new movie

Jun 4, 2016 9:20 PM

#256

Inugirlz

Offline

Jul 2009

3776

Viktor_Otaku said:

As for the battle scene ? Wonder why they still use horses if there is steam power motorcycles ? I mean really..............

I was wondering about that too and I tried to justify it in 2 ways. 1) maybe they just don't have a lot of those motorcycles, i'd imagine resources are tight when your restricted inside of walls.

Or 2) Biba specifically just fights better on a horse (if i remember correctly he was the only one on one)? He grew up learning how to ride them (as the Shogun's son and all).

But we all know the real reason: horses look cool and make him look majestic. Never mind the fact the poor horse is gonna be sacrificed/killed because when do they NOT kill the horse?

Benevolance said:

Doomdoctor said:
I fail to see Biba as a villain, in a world filled with stupidity and terrible one and two dimensional characters, he seems to be one of the few who has a somewhat clearly defined philosophy and gives of some vibes of depth. And, honestly, his actions seem to be more on the anti heroic spectrum than villainous. But I'm sure if they want to take the villain route, he'd be sporting an evil grin from the next episode.

And, I hope Ikoma and everyone on Koutetsujou die in a fire. Watching them for 8 episodes and I still can't find anyone likable.

EXACTLY... idk how hes even considered a villain. Most of His actions seem realistic. Damn...Kabaneri really is all action, no plot.

Yeah I seriously wasn't buying the villain talk until he started smiling when he killed people and you know said Ikoma had to be killed if he came inside that room. Oh and the key thing. Like power-hungry A-hole much. Like allow the man to keep his complexity, don't dumb shit down by making him needlessly cruel.

Jun 4, 2016 9:26 PM

#257

1290349450394a

Offline

Oct 2013

246

moncikoma said:

unless they will make a movie.. a 2nd season is a new movie

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that if they make a movie or a series they could explore more concepts? Because I definitely agree, but that also might not stop the show from rushing it's ending anyhow, since if they aren't promised enough time to write their story, in an effort to satisfy the fans they might sacrifice some plot or depth for action scenes.

I couldn't think of anything cool to put here.

Jun 4, 2016 9:31 PM

#258

Kotobakayaro

Offline

Mar 2015

237

salmon-kun said:
Biba has evil character hairstyle

And dat basic 101 rape face.

Jun 4, 2016 10:20 PM

#259

Jaslen

Offline

May 2013

72

opiktea said:

Jaslen said:
Ano toki refers to a time/incident that involves the listener as well. It tells the listener that they already have knowledge of which incident it was.

Otherwise "Sono toki" is used.

So it could be only that incident where Ayama and Takumi were present, in fact they had to step in.

Still contextually weak. When ikoma and biba was repairin a loco, ayame was also present. Then, how do we know that he's not speaking exclusively to ayame? even weirder, he's facing the door when he's speaking... well, to be fair, he's facing the audience... so maybe he's breaking the 4th wall, now that's allright...

Jaslen said:
As for this :

Ikoma : "why did you kill him?"
Biba : "why're you angry?"
Ikoma : "Because he was asking for helps!"
I was like : Ikoma you piece of shit, solid snake just tried to assassinate biba. What else did you expect?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I saw happen.

Ikoma had his back to Biba and the assassin. He only turned around when he was startled by the noise made when Biba knocked Enoku down.
First thing he saw was Biba lunging at the man with his sword, and the man pleads for help. I think it is understandable how he reacted.
Takumi had to tell him that it was the other way around.

Seems like you are right! I apologize but i'm in suspension of disbelief... ikoma was neither battling any kabane nor get any distraction apart from the assassination event. Yet this is what we got. even his friend got alarmed by that event, yet he's not somehow? i know that's possible, but fuck me!

It's a language thing also. I'm in no way blaming subbers, and am grateful for subs myself. They do a good job. Japanese, with its subtleties, nuances, can be hard to translate without taking the liberty to change lines for the better understanding of those of us without good enough Japanese language skills.
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Also, Ikoma's use of "aitsu' and 'koistsu' with refence to Biba. It simply means "he/him" but used to describe someone of high status as Biba is, it's derogatory. It shows his utter disgust. So the 'he was smiling' would make the two think of that one situation earlier.
Nothing had happened earlier that day with Ayame present on Biba's train. And even if it had after she left, she wouldn't know. And she was given the understanding that she had been a witness to a certain event. That assassination attempt scene would come to mind.
All I'm saying is that the writer's lines would have created no confusion amongst the Japanese.
Directly translated, would it? It did with you, so yes.

As for Ikoma not realising what was going on behind him, his stance before he turned around showed he was still on alert - his weapon still raised, seemingly scouting the area for stray kabane, as the battle had just ended. It is his first battle fighting alongside the hunters. He is, after all, an 'overly enthusiastic' character.
Takumi was just an observer. He would be more aware of everything else going on.

That said, I am fine with your suspension of disbelief. We, as individuals, see/intrepret or want things to go differently.

Jun 4, 2016 10:27 PM

#260

MysteriousBanana

Offline

Jan 2016

395

opiktea said:
You mean "ano toki" right? that's beyond vague, that's ambiguous! considering Ikoma did not spend much time with biba, yes. but again how the other two would know he's not refering the event when Ikoma and biba was repairing the loco? then again without the insert video we'll be lost on translation, thank god the director at least know his job...

You should rewatch that scene, Ayame was escorted out of the car before Ikoma offered to help Biba (plus Ikoma was standing behind them, so he knew they were escorted out, there's no way he would have thought she was in there while they were having their chat).

Also you have to consider how storyboards work, it's not the director adding in a flashback to compensate for the lack of context, it's the writer and storyboard artist collaborating to provide context and get the timing of scenes right. You're complaining like the writer didn't write those lines with the expectation of how a scene will play out or what context will be given in the animation.

Hell, if you read the scripts of any anime without visual or sound effect cues, nothing would ever make sense.

opiktea said:
Still contextually weak. When ikoma and biba was repairin a loco, ayame was also present. Then, how do we know that he's not speaking exclusively to ayame? even weirder, he's facing the door when he's speaking... well, to be fair, he's facing the audience... so maybe he's breaking the 4th wall, now that's allright...

Because he's addressing them both, if he was addressing a specific person or referring to a moment that only one of them would have been aware of, he would have addressed them by name first. Also neither of them spoke, so he wasn't replying to either one of them specifically either.

Seems like you are right! I apologize but i'm in suspension of disbelief... ikoma was neither battling any kabane nor get any distraction apart from the assassination event. Yet this is what we got. even his friend got alarmed by that event, yet he's not somehow? i know that's possible, but fuck me!

What are you talking about? He was part of the battle, you even see him kill one earlier in the fight and comment on how that was the right way to do things. He wasn't there to stare at Biba's fabulous hair, he was looking for kabane to kill, so why wouldn't he be distracted?

Jun 4, 2016 10:45 PM

#261

MysteriousBanana

Offline

Jan 2016

395

Jaslen said:
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Which is an interesting point you raised and I didn't really think of before. People complain that the writing is terrible and that the characters aren't talking like "normal" people, but the fact is they're complaining about amateur translations of a language with a lot of nuances. It would be like me complaining that Americans don't talk or behave like normal people simply because they don't use the same grammatical rules or body language that people in Hong Kong do.

My Japanese teacher once told the class that no matter how hard we study, there's a lot we'll never learn unless we actually spend a significant amount of time in Japan. There's a ton of nuances in both the language and social behavior that isn't taught, but picked up on throughout a Japanese student's time from primary to junior high.

Jun 4, 2016 11:05 PM

#262

opiktea

Offline

Jan 2013

282

Jaslen said:

opiktea said:

Still contextually weak. When ikoma and biba was repairin a loco, ayame was also present. Then, how do we know that he's not speaking exclusively to ayame? even weirder, he's facing the door when he's speaking... well, to be fair, he's facing the audience... so maybe he's breaking the 4th wall, now that's allright...

Seems like you are right! I apologize but i'm in suspension of disbelief... ikoma was neither battling any kabane nor get any distraction apart from the assassination event. Yet this is what we got. even his friend got alarmed by that event, yet he's not somehow? i know that's possible, but fuck me!

It's a language thing also. I'm in no way blaming subbers, and am grateful for subs myself. They do a good job. Japanese, with its subtleties, nuances, can be hard to translate without taking the liberty to change lines for the better understanding of those of us without good enough Japanese language skills.
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Also, Ikoma's use of "aitsu' and 'koistsu' with refence to Biba. It simply means "he/him" but used to describe someone of high status as Biba is, it's derogatory. It shows his utter disgust. So the 'he was smiling' would make the two think of that one situation earlier.
Nothing had happened earlier that day with Ayame present on Biba's train. And even if it had after she left, she wouldn't know. And she was given the understanding that she had been a witness to a certain event. That assassination attempt scene would come to mind.
All I'm saying is that the writer's lines would have created no confusion amongst the Japanese.
Directly translated, would it? It did with you, so yes.

As for Ikoma not realising what was going on behind him, his stance before he turned around showed he was still on alert - his weapon still raised, seemingly scouting the area for stray kabane, as the battle had just ended. It is his first battle fighting alongside the hunters. He is, after all, an 'overly enthusiastic' character.
Takumi was just an observer. He would be more aware of everything else going on.

That said, I am fine with your suspension of disbelief. We, as individuals, see/intrepret or want things to go differently.

i dissagree, even if something happened in loco, ayame would never known for sure. Based on her personality, he won't be able to jump into such a wild conclusion that would put other (biba) in negative connotation... so no.
For takumi, he's normal....

Jun 4, 2016 11:30 PM

#263

Vox_Populi

Offline

Jun 2013

281

Continues to be the funniest anime I've watched since Barakamon. I used to be annoyed about how the main character became stupid after the first episode, but the comedy wouldn't exist without his yelling, so I guess it's alright.

Jun 4, 2016 11:59 PM

#264

Jaslen

Offline

May 2013

72

opiktea said:

Jaslen said:

It's a language thing also. I'm in no way blaming subbers, and am grateful for subs myself. They do a good job. Japanese, with its subtleties, nuances, can be hard to translate without taking the liberty to change lines for the better understanding of those of us without good enough Japanese language skills.
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Also, Ikoma's use of "aitsu' and 'koistsu' with refence to Biba. It simply means "he/him" but used to describe someone of high status as Biba is, it's derogatory. It shows his utter disgust. So the 'he was smiling' would make the two think of that one situation earlier.
Nothing had happened earlier that day with Ayame present on Biba's train. And even if it had after she left, she wouldn't know. And she was given the understanding that she had been a witness to a certain event. That assassination attempt scene would come to mind.
All I'm saying is that the writer's lines would have created no confusion amongst the Japanese.
Directly translated, would it? It did with you, so yes.

As for Ikoma not realising what was going on behind him, his stance before he turned around showed he was still on alert - his weapon still raised, seemingly scouting the area for stray kabane, as the battle had just ended. It is his first battle fighting alongside the hunters. He is, after all, an 'overly enthusiastic' character.
Takumi was just an observer. He would be more aware of everything else going on.

That said, I am fine with your suspension of disbelief. We, as individuals, see/intrepret or want things to go differently.

i dissagree, even if something happened in loco, ayame would never known for sure. Based on her personality, he won't be able to jump into such a wild conclusion that would put other (biba) in negative connotation... so no.
For takumi, he's normal....

I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that Ayame should still be in doubt about what situation he was referring to?

Because if he was referring to something else that Ayame knows nothing about or for that matter, takumi also, he would have to present the situation first , then follow it with "sono toki" ..aitsu ga waratteta. (he smiled/laughed)

Jun 5, 2016 12:04 AM

#265

Jaslen

Offline

May 2013

72

MysteriousBanana said:

Jaslen said:
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Which is an interesting point you raised and I didn't really think of before. People complain that the writing is terrible and that the characters aren't talking like "normal" people, but the fact is they're complaining about amateur translations of a language with a lot of nuances. It would be like me complaining that Americans don't talk or behave like normal people simply because they don't use the same grammatical rules or body language that people in Hong Kong do.

My Japanese teacher once told the class that no matter how hard we study, there's a lot we'll never learn unless we actually spend a significant amount of time in Japan. There's a ton of nuances in both the language and social behavior that isn't taught, but picked up on throughout a Japanese student's time from primary to junior high.

Your teacher is right. Apart from simple sol anime, I do depend on subs for better understanding.
However, I often find such nuances in the simple everyday language not translated correctly. This would be only because of what I had picked up from living amongst them.

Jun 5, 2016 12:28 AM

#266

Sakaitsu

Offline

Dec 2012

3006

Biba is strong, I wonder how many Kabaneri he created. Mumei acts without thinking because his brother asked her to get the key. I see a fight incoming about Mumei and this key

Jun 5, 2016 1:13 AM

#267

opiktea

Offline

Jan 2013

282

Jaslen said:

opiktea said:

Jaslen said:

opiktea said:

Jaslen said:
Ano toki refers to a time/incident that involves the listener as well. It tells the listener that they already have knowledge of which incident it was.

Otherwise "Sono toki" is used.

So it could be only that incident where Ayama and Takumi were present, in fact they had to step in.

Still contextually weak. When ikoma and biba was repairin a loco, ayame was also present. Then, how do we know that he's not speaking exclusively to ayame? even weirder, he's facing the door when he's speaking... well, to be fair, he's facing the audience... so maybe he's breaking the 4th wall, now that's allright...

Jaslen said:
As for this :

Ikoma : "why did you kill him?"
Biba : "why're you angry?"
Ikoma : "Because he was asking for helps!"
I was like : Ikoma you piece of shit, solid snake just tried to assassinate biba. What else did you expect?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I saw happen.

Ikoma had his back to Biba and the assassin. He only turned around when he was startled by the noise made when Biba knocked Enoku down.
First thing he saw was Biba lunging at the man with his sword, and the man pleads for help. I think it is understandable how he reacted.
Takumi had to tell him that it was the other way around.

Seems like you are right! I apologize but i'm in suspension of disbelief... ikoma was neither battling any kabane nor get any distraction apart from the assassination event. Yet this is what we got. even his friend got alarmed by that event, yet he's not somehow? i know that's possible, but fuck me!

It's a language thing also. I'm in no way blaming subbers, and am grateful for subs myself. They do a good job. Japanese, with its subtleties, nuances, can be hard to translate without taking the liberty to change lines for the better understanding of those of us without good enough Japanese language skills.
In the years I lived in Japan, this 'ano' and 'sono' amongst other things was a source of confusion for me in the early period. Being the only foreigner in my circle, I was the only one who followed conversations with the wrong thought, often with hilarity ensuing.

Also, Ikoma's use of "aitsu' and 'koistsu' with refence to Biba. It simply means "he/him" but used to describe someone of high status as Biba is, it's derogatory. It shows his utter disgust. So the 'he was smiling' would make the two think of that one situation earlier.
Nothing had happened earlier that day with Ayame present on Biba's train. And even if it had after she left, she wouldn't know. And she was given the understanding that she had been a witness to a certain event. That assassination attempt scene would come to mind.
All I'm saying is that the writer's lines would have created no confusion amongst the Japanese.
Directly translated, would it? It did with you, so yes.

As for Ikoma not realising what was going on behind him, his stance before he turned around showed he was still on alert - his weapon still raised, seemingly scouting the area for stray kabane, as the battle had just ended. It is his first battle fighting alongside the hunters. He is, after all, an 'overly enthusiastic' character.
Takumi was just an observer. He would be more aware of everything else going on.

That said, I am fine with your suspension of disbelief. We, as individuals, see/intrepret or want things to go differently.

i dissagree, even if something happened in loco, ayame would never known for sure. Based on her personality, he won't be able to jump into such a wild conclusion that would put other (biba) in negative connotation... so no.
For takumi, he's normal....

I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that Ayame should still be in doubt about what situation he was referring to?

Because if he was referring to something else that Ayame knows nothing about or for that matter, takumi also, he would have to present the situation first , then follow it with "sono toki" ..aitsu ga waratteta. (he smiled/laughed)

this is what i thought... ikoma was refering to the assassination incident, while the two has a possibility to interpret the matter differently. Takumi might get the message for he was just a few times present in biba and ikoma's presence for the use of "ano toki" to be valid. But what about ayame? Ayame was naive, too positivistic, and kind. a character with this kind of train of thought was not capable to be aggessive, hence the mind. Now if ikoma was talking about smile, a person like ayame who had spent a time face-to-face with biba was bound to bw confused. Afterall biba smiles all the time....

Again without the flashback, i'll be goddamn lost...

Jun 5, 2016 2:04 AM

#268

MysteriousBanana

Offline

Jan 2016

395

opiktea said:
Again without the flashback, i'll be goddamn lost...

So here's the thing: you're not actually complaining because of "bad" writing, you're just complaining because you don't know Japanese well enough to pick up on the nuances.

And here's the other thing: the writer is aware not everyone would've picked up on that, the whole flashback being shown is part of the writing. That it helped you understand the context and that you're grateful for it is proof that the writing achieved exactly what it needed to. Even without your understanding of the nuances you still managed to understand the scene.

You are literally complaining it makes no sense despite having made sense of it without any considerable effort on your part.

Jun 5, 2016 3:06 AM

#269