"Confusing" reactions to reviews shouldn't count towards how high up they are for an entry

DeonX said:
Absolutely agree with that. MAL devs should just add a dislike button at this point. I mean what's the point of this? Reducing toxicity? Mental health of the reviewers? Please don't give YouTube levels of bs on MAL.

fluffycow17 said:
There was a "suggested" sort that was originally there with the review update that was supposed to fix everything, but there were a lot of bugs in that so they removed it.

Ironically, I think it increases toxicity. "Confusing" reviews get promoted and get more and more hate because of that.

On a similar note, I found this thread that one of the review mods made before he became a mod (https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1890309). He had strong opinions of the review system. I'm not 100% sure if he still believes that, but it's interesting nevertheless.

SoldierZoom said:
i mean with reviews its who posts first wins

SoldierZoom said:
i mean with reviews its who posts first wins

Abajur said:
Didn't you know that emoji are the best thing ever? Do you remember a few years ago when MAL changed scores to emoji for April fools? Yes, that is right, that was no April fools. MAL devs really like emoji and wanted that to be the new system. The change just got reverted because of the backlash... Wait! That makes no sense! MAL devs never listen to backlash!! What is going on??!!

Here is a solution, that won't get implemented:

1. Remove all emoji reactions
2. Add a like and dislike buttons
3. Allow users to sort reviews by newest, oldest, most liked and most disliked
4. Remember what the user last sorted by and show that by default, this can be done for everyone, even those who are not logged in using cookies

Steps 1 and 2 can be done without losing the current ratings by using the reactions that exist now to create the initial like and dislike counts.

If not a solution, at least a massive improvement.

Ionliosite2 said:
This honestly feels like people being angry their fav anime got a negative review. The system measures engagement, so both "confusing" and "funny" add to the tally, if you don't want the number to increase, ignore it as that way there's no engagement and thus the number doesn't increase. The system works exactly as it's supposed to, you just don't like seeing "Not Recommended" on the front page.

Sir-C said:

It literally doesn't make sense for the site to measure "engagement". The problem is that the site pushes the most "confusing" reviews to the top for whatever reason, and most reasonable people wouldn't expect the confused emoji to work identically to a like.

Why should a review that clearly conflicts with the majority opinion be shown at the top? It obviously doesn't represent how a newcomer will likely feel about the show

Ionliosite2 said:
Basing it purely on upvotes won't represent how a newcomer will feel a lot of the time either, so I don't see how that's an argument.

leuscius said:
why shouldn't they? they still count as engagement, and whichever gathers the most would naturally assume a top spot due to high traction.

Sir-C said:

It literally doesn't make sense for the site to measure "engagement". The problem is that the site pushes the most "confusing" reviews to the top for whatever reason, and most reasonable people wouldn't expect the confused emoji to work identically to a like.

Why should a review that clearly conflicts with the majority opinion be shown at the top? It obviously doesn't represent how a newcomer will likely feel about the show

Kraanerg said:
That's a very difficult topic. No matter how good you write a review, if you rate low a show that is hype, people will say you're automatically a jerk and will dislike your review. I mean, just look at my Cyberpunk review, I gave all the reasons why I dislike the show, yet I had people messaging me. The only way to make justice is some kind of math balance to calibrate how high a review can go, since yes, many reviews rated "confused" are terrible. Though cutting it off, you'll only read people saying the shows are 10/10. If you like a show, what's the point of reading and enjoying 20 persons saying exactly the same opinion as yours, which sometimes is just wow best show ever everything perfect erp derp, I don't get it.

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
I'd beg to differ, just because we've seen reviews that were critical (and sometimes even harsh) thrive on the old "upvote-only system" despite there being no "confusing boost". It's been shown that things won't go to shit (w only 10/10 reviews at the top), so I think that fear, though valid, isn't actually going to come to fruition.

Kraanerg said:


I don't think the mods would do much for a change, but ideal would be mixed in front page (without preliminary only), then if you click to see reviews, it separates into three sections, reccomended, mixed feelings and not reccomended. That would be the only fair way to do it, imho.

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:

I'd beg to differ, just because we've seen reviews that were critical (and sometimes even harsh) thrive on the old "upvote-only system" despite there being no "confusing boost". It's been shown that things won't go to shit (w only 10/10 reviews at the top), so I think that fear, though valid, isn't actually going to come to fruition.

Gween_Gween said:

Oh you sweet summer child

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:

dawg chill, do you want evidence?

for one, check out the reviews here:
https://myanimelist.net/anime/2904/Code_Geass__Hangyaku_no_Lelouch_R2
https://myanimelist.net/anime/11757/Sword_Art_Online
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38000/Kimetsu_no_Yaiba
you might notice that (lo and behold) despite these preceding the update, critical reviews did just fine

dawg, maybe look at your own critical reviews from before the update. do you notice how despite being critical, they're upvoted? it's really not that deep :/

Gween_Gween said:

Couldn't you be more biased here? You are citing three anime with a clear mixed reception. and the KnY ones are not even organic

https://myanimelist.net/anime/43608/Kaguya-sama_wa_Kokurasetai__Ultra_Romantic
https://myanimelist.net/anime/40591/Kaguya-sama_wa_Kokurasetai_Tensai-tachi_no_Renai_Zunousen
https://myanimelist.net/anime/48569/86_Part_2
https://myanimelist.net/anime/46102/Odd_Taxi

Out of those four, all the negative reviews needed an alt account boost to even compete for the top 4. Many anime don't even have a top 3 negative/mixed review

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
And you're going to act like that's completely independent from the general audience's reception of the shows themselves? Of course shows that have a much less divided reception (which the ones you cited did) are going to have consistently high reviews. With shows above 8.00, it makes more sense that almost all of the reviews fall in that range, if we ignore the fac that the avg MAL user is a contrarian neckbeard (though some critical reviews are valid, I'll admit).

Pulling exceptions to your case to prove my point is exactly what I was trying to do. The point that requires a trend to justify would be what you're trying to prove. To negate a trend, all you need is a case where it doesn't hold, dude.

Gween_Gween said:

Negative reviews thrive with mixed reception, and positive reviews thrive with positive reception, is that the point that you were trying to make? Because it is pretty obvious and not what the comment you replying to is trying to say anyways. My bad, I think that I shouldn't read between the lines and just accept that you were trying to make a redundant clarification

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
I mean, sure. My bad for making a redundant clarification? My point has nothing to do with negative reviews thriving in the first place. The entire issue here is that their "thriving", regardless of the quality of the review, bumps down positive reviews unequivocally. I guess it's fine if you disagree with that one point. That's the entire reason there's contention around the topic.

Your whole routine of knocking ppl down by taking shots at what u think they're tryna say is a little cheap though. Like what, you're at fault for assuming I was saying something smart, when I wasn't? That shit's lame bro

Gween_Gween said:

No, but I assumed that you were trying to point out something interesting, no shit that Code Geass or SAO get negative reception, it is ok to hate on those shows

Also, this is the quality of the previous system. It was voted to bump down a negative review



Hmm sounds like a "I dont like negative reviews on my anime" problem then, didn't see that much animosity towards those manipulations

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
Okay, but then it becomes a problem with spam voting, not the review system itself. I feel like no matter what case either side makes, there's always some kind of counterexample that ends up existing because the system is fucked up in *multiple* ways.

As for your last point, nah. I write <6/10 reviews often enough and understand that those reviews get however much more popular because of the "confusing" vote issue. I also have reviews that get demolished by reviews with 3x less "helpful" votes just by virtue of the "confusing" votes being so high. I brought up the issue solely on a general concern for the validity of how voting works, rather than out of personal interest. I have reviews that benefit from it and reviews that don't. So nah, the motivation isn't that childish...

Gween_Gween said:

See the votes of your Summertime Rendering review and then come back talking about the validity of voting

Spoiler: Nothing of this matters, just review because you enjoy it. The system can be changed, but people opposed changes, deal with it

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
And that's my point.... I don't care that the 4/10 review (the lordsozin one) is up there because it bring up valid concerns. My problem is that for any and every critical review, the majority of the upvotes don't come from people that even see quality in the review.

Gween_Gween said:

And my point is that it is mostly never the case anyways, check the examples that I have already shown you. If you are against the confusion button because it distorts the sorting system then my point is that every button is completely distorted by whoever wants to distort it so it doesn't matter

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
no no agh... what I'm saying is that u giving me case-by-case examples of where it's not the case doesn't prove that "it is mostly never the case anyways". I don't want to get all math-major-y on you, but you can't prove "∀", which is what you're trying to do with exmaples. You can only prove "∃", which is what I did in showing you examples where it was fine. If you still don't get what I'm tryna say, ima j drop it, dw abt it lol.

Gween_Gween said:


??? I'm not trying to prove a "for all" at any point, mostly never the case is not a "for all" statement. The votes are always biased toward agreement and exposure, so most of the time it is not about the quality of the review (That is why I told you to check the examples that I gave you). It is two different arguments and I can agree to just have a disagreement about the presence of the confusion button, as I don't care about it too much and I think that sorting by votes is moronic given all the antecedents. However, I hope you can see how it is a delusion to vouch for the deletion of the confusion button with the excuse of improving the healthiness of the sorting system. The sorting system will not improve but just homogenize towards a certain opinion given certain conditions, the confusion button is just a false flag. Better example. If the confusion button didn't exist, your review could potentially be in the top 3 in the Summertime Rendering case, as the negative reviews would have lower exposure. Would it be fairer? I doubt it

Btw, no need for that math major crap, propositional logic and quantifiers are middle school stuff. I just don't consider that I failed with logic as much as you failed to understand my point

Let me clarify: You're not wrong in having inhibitions against the suggested fixes to the system. But claiming that there're no confounding factors in the review order being what it is is just silly. That's *all* I'm tryna say dawg, my bad that this spiraled into a bunch of useless exchanges.

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
And regarding the summertime render point: it's not even true. Both of the 4/10 reviews have more likes than my total amount of votes, and I have absolutely no issues with that. stop going after some non-existent personal motivation.

But claiming that there are no confounding factors in the review order being what it is is just silly

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
You're making a general claim about a general pool, and saying it *applies* for all of it. Specifically, you're saying that for all anime, it holds that it's mostly the case that blah blah. So you're then trying to prove a general (aka "for all") case with examples. AGAIN, giving me three links doesn't prove shit. If you want to call middle school shit, at least understand *my* point in the same way that I apparently don't understand yours. If you want to insult the entire basis of conversation, go ahead. Bringing the whole "ah ur point is so primitive" or "that's so dumb" into the conversation just makes it hard to converse, nah?

Gween_Gween said:


This is a matter of exposure, if the reviews were not at the top then those upvotes wouldn't even surface. In the old system, the review at the top of Bocchi the Rock would literally stay at the bottom for the rest of the season because he didn't race the third episode



I never claimed that there is not an issue, I said that if you care about the sorting being integral then the argument should never be about the removal of a button but the revamping of the sorting. The suggested system is already done, by the way, and not released because people opposed its apparent unfairness



No, I never said that apply for it all. You said that critical reviews can thrive -> I said that you cherry-picked your examples to obviously biased voter bases and gave you counter-examples -> You then said that when the reception is generally positive then the reviews should be generally positive, which is literally what the original poster said, so the confusing button actually works to balance reception bias. I can't really demonstrate what you are trying to say that I'm demonstrating because it is just a matter of constantly shifting the category, I can always pull the "mixed reception" category and you can always pull the "positive reception" category. My point was that it is a delusion to think that negative reviews were thriving without additional impulses in certain cases, which is true, so it makes no sense to indicate that "critical" reviews are thriving given the seasonal bandwagon. You don't need more than the ratio of confusing-to-nice in negative reviews to understand how the tribal behavior goes.

When I said "It is mostly never the case", I did refer to people voting for the quality of the review in the general case. In other words, your problem with the confusing vote is "People see negative review" -> "People vote negative review without considering its quality", my point is "People see review with their bias" -> "People vote their bias without considering its quality", the differences are just a matter of some early outlier voting that actually care about review quality, so the system is biased towards their opinion anyways. That is why you post your review when the content is finished and not when you consider it ideal to do so. Dunno what you think my point was when I quoted the exact segment that I was responding to.

Uji_Gintoki_Bowl said:
All I'm saying is that the old system was honestly fine compared ot this

Gween_Gween said:

Sadly, if you indulged as much as me in the votes of past seasons you would be really cautious about this, there is a reason behind the review revamp that goes beyond simply change for the sake of change. As you said, we disagree on some points and that is ok