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| great episode. looking forward to the next episode |
Jin_uzuki said: Not sure if I missunderstood something, but anyway...which is why Akasaka's wife is alive and he knows karate (Despite this being a massive paradox since Rika shouldn't even know him, she can only go back as far as two weeks) It's not like Rika can only go back as far as two weeks, that's only how it was at the end. The time frame used to be a lot longer. She's met Akasaka multiple times, and the Himatsubushi by itself is a proof of this. |
         Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: Jin_uzuki said: Not sure if I missunderstood something, but anyway...which is why Akasaka's wife is alive and he knows karate (Despite this being a massive paradox since Rika shouldn't even know him, she can only go back as far as two weeks) It's not like Rika can only go back as far as two weeks, that's only how it was at the end. The time frame used to be a lot longer. She's met Akasaka multiple times, and the Himatsubushi by itself is a proof of this. I thought Rika is a normal girl until she "wakes up" at the start of each loop. Or is she autopiloting based on old loops till she get the new memories? Because in the anime it seemed like she has no idea what was happening before waking up, like playing with the club or the date. So the Rikas of the later loops shouldnt have met Akasaka and ask him for help. It isnt time travelling but different fragments after all. |
Hulio said: Jin_uzuki said: Not sure if I missunderstood something, but anyway...which is why Akasaka's wife is alive and he knows karate (Despite this being a massive paradox since Rika shouldn't even know him, she can only go back as far as two weeks) It's not like Rika can only go back as far as two weeks, that's only how it was at the end. The time frame used to be a lot longer. She's met Akasaka multiple times, and the Himatsubushi by itself is a proof of this. Rika isn't actually looping, Hanyu is essentially jumping/creating a parallel world every time, the old worlds still exist and are left behind. She even mentions she doesn't like to think of the worlds she left behind because it would be too depressing, iirc. In Rei she muses that because of her, the Rika of that world is no more (Of course Rei may have been a dream, but she doesn't know that at that point) You can see this in Gou too, when we are show the epilogues at the end of each arc or how Rika asks in the Nekodamashi's last arc "Where is Shion?" since she doesn't know her position in the club in that world. Jumping directly into 1983 June means she can't warn Akasaka, but still happens because progresses are carried over from different fragments. Another example is how originally there were some worlds were Keiichi didn't move into Hinamizawa, but she she managed to make it a permanent thing by meeting his dad. How fragments are created in Higurashi is never really explained (I don't think you are meant to think about it too much, but just roll with it), but it seems many of them can be made from other fragments and combined together. Matsuri was a miracle world made from all the other fragments, in the visual novel there is a even a "minigame" where you have to put the events in the correct order. It's why Akasaka knew karate, a skill he only learned in a world where his wife died. |
Jin_uzukiFeb 12, 2021 1:03 AM
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| Obligatory Gokigen'yō~ Even though my knowledge of Umineko is very little, St. Lucia just reeks of Umineko vibes. I really hope that after GOU, there will be a proper Umineko adaptation since I heard the Deen one sucked balls. The shit that's happening this episode is very real, I don't know if prestigious schools as bad as this still exist today but in 1987 it most definitely would have. I can sympathize with Satoko, she tried to be considerate of Rika even though that kind of life isn't for her just so she can be with Rika but there's only so much you can bear for someone I guess. What she's doing is wrong though but I understand it. Now let's see how insane she'll go. |
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| LMAO so Rika suffers again because Satoko couldn't keep up / nor care less about her studies...... Seems legit. Now just to find out how she got them godly powers. |
ssjokg said: Well yes, Rika is a "normal" (as far as that goes, and don't know how far) until she "wakes up" as you said, but aside of Matsuribayashi, we don't really know when that is.Hulio said: Not sure if I missunderstood something, but anyway... It's not like Rika can only go back as far as two weeks, that's only how it was at the end. The time frame used to be a lot longer. She's met Akasaka multiple times, and the Himatsubushi by itself is a proof of this. I thought Rika is a normal girl until she "wakes up" at the start of each loop. Or is she autopiloting based on old loops till she get the new memories? Because in the anime it seemed like she has no idea what was happening before waking up, like playing with the club or the date. So the Rikas of the later loops shouldnt have met Akasaka and ask him for help. It isnt time travelling but different fragments after all. Don't really remember how Minagoroshi was, and none of us knows for how long Rika had been awoke in the question arcs. Except for Himatsubushi when she asks Akasaka for help - that means she was redoing everything since the 4-5 years ago, for all we know it could have been same for the first 3 arcs aswell. I really don't want to delve too deep on how the fragments works cause I'm not certain myself, but I guess it could be possible that the later fragments had established the request for help from Akasaka. Atleast in the VN the Matsuribayashi fragment was kind of pieced together from shards of the other fragments Jin_uzuki said: Oh yeah, had actually forgotten that "custom made" fragments were a thing.Hulio said: Not sure if I missunderstood something, but anyway... It's not like Rika can only go back as far as two weeks, that's only how it was at the end. The time frame used to be a lot longer. She's met Akasaka multiple times, and the Himatsubushi by itself is a proof of this. Rika isn't actually looping, Hanyu is essentially jumping/creating a parallel world every time, the old worlds still exist and are left behind. She even mentions she doesn't like to think of the worlds she left behind because it would be too depressing, iirc. In Rei she muses that because of her, the Rika of that world is no more (Of course Rei may have been a dream, but she doesn't know that at that point) Jumping directly into 1983 June means she can't warn Akasaka, but still happens because progresses are carried over from different fragments. Another example is how originally there were some worlds were Keiichi didn't move into Hinamizawa, but she she managed to make it a permanent thing by meeting his dad. How fragments are created in Higurashi is never really explained (I don't think you are meant to think about it too much, but just roll with it), but it seems many of them can be made from other fragments and combined together. Matsuri was a miracle world made from all the other fragments, in the visual novel there is a even a "minigame" where you have to put the events in the correct order. It's why Akasaka knew karate, a skill he only learned in a world where his wife died. And yes apparently I indeed did misunderstood to original post, for some reason read Paradox as a Contradiction and considered Rika as the Rika who goes through the fragments. But doesn't the way you explained this completely solve the paradox? It's like cutting and copypasting parts of different worldlines to create a path of your liking. Sure it would seem to be a paradox within the fragment itself, but can it be a Paradox if it isn't bound by causality?. Perhaps the best way to interpret the world/fragments is the gameboard after all, and we can do whatever we want with it regardless of the rules. |
Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
Hulio said: ssjokg said: Well yes, Rika is a "normal" (as far as that goes, and don't know how far) until she "wakes up" as you said, but aside of Matsuribayashi, we don't really know when that is.I thought Rika is a normal girl until she "wakes up" at the start of each loop. Or is she autopiloting based on old loops till she get the new memories? Because in the anime it seemed like she has no idea what was happening before waking up, like playing with the club or the date. So the Rikas of the later loops shouldnt have met Akasaka and ask him for help. It isnt time travelling but different fragments after all. Don't really remember how Minagoroshi was, and none of us knows for how long Rika had been awoke in the question arcs. Except for Himatsubushi when she asks Akasaka for help - that means she was redoing everything since the 4-5 years ago, for all we know it could have been same for the first 3 arcs aswell. I really don't want to delve too deep on how the fragments works cause I'm not certain myself, but I guess it could be possible that the later fragments had established the request for help from Akasaka. Atleast in the VN the Matsuribayashi fragment was kind of pieced together from shards of the other fragments Jin_uzuki said: Oh yeah, had actually forgotten that "custom made" fragments were a thing.Rika isn't actually looping, Hanyu is essentially jumping/creating a parallel world every time, the old worlds still exist and are left behind. She even mentions she doesn't like to think of the worlds she left behind because it would be too depressing, iirc. In Rei she muses that because of her, the Rika of that world is no more (Of course Rei may have been a dream, but she doesn't know that at that point) Jumping directly into 1983 June means she can't warn Akasaka, but still happens because progresses are carried over from different fragments. Another example is how originally there were some worlds were Keiichi didn't move into Hinamizawa, but she she managed to make it a permanent thing by meeting his dad. How fragments are created in Higurashi is never really explained (I don't think you are meant to think about it too much, but just roll with it), but it seems many of them can be made from other fragments and combined together. Matsuri was a miracle world made from all the other fragments, in the visual novel there is a even a "minigame" where you have to put the events in the correct order. It's why Akasaka knew karate, a skill he only learned in a world where his wife died. And yes apparently I indeed did misunderstood to original post, for some reason read Paradox as a Contradiction and considered Rika as the Rika who goes through the fragments. But doesn't the way you explained this completely solve the paradox? It's like cutting and copypasting parts of different worldlines to create a path of your liking. Sure it would seem to be a paradox within the fragment itself, but can it be a Paradox if it isn't bound by causality?. Perhaps the best way to interpret the world/fragments is the gameboard after all, and we can do whatever we want with it regardless of the rules. Well yeah I mean it's a paradox because he knows karate in a world where he doesn't learn karate, but the story itself explains how it is possible so it's not a plot hole. Higurashi's story in general is a continuous thing despite the loops and the characters evolve and change thorough their different universes selves. It's why Satoko should theoretically have all her Mina's development, just like Rena, Shion and Keiichi have theirs despite the fact "they never happened" in the final fragment, so to speak. |
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| Well, I have seen different POV in this comment section. Personally, I think that Rika has part of the fault on this situation. She knew that an academy like St. Lucia doesn't fit to Satoko. She knew that Satoko has an abandonment feeling and that her only family is Rika (her soul sister). She knew that Satoko would say yes although she didn't want to go to that academy. Also, although she knew that Satoko was struggling with her studies, she didn't put a single effort on helping her. She only raised her hand worried when Satoko laughed and then she went off with her new fake friends who are full of appearences instead of talking with her on private. Remember that Satoko was the person who helped Rika every night through two and half a year. Obviously, Rika has every right to fully enjoy her new life after 100 years of suffering but she can't forget where she come from. Yes, Satoko also has the fault on accepting Rika's invitation but what could she do? She doesn't have any other family as I said before. It's not as if she didn't suffer anything through her life (to mention, I dislike her very much since original Higurashi but we have to be fair on understanding her). I think there was a great problem of communication between both. I love Rika, she is my fav character but she could have done more for her. Probably Satoko also could has told Rika that she wasn't feeling good being there. But the final scene shows her completely exhausted after a day of constant school work and then she sees Rika happy with her new friends. It's normal to go mad. Or didn't you see the other students' faces in the support class? But well. |
dylelouchFeb 12, 2021 2:11 AM
| where is Shion btw? is this a junior high? did Shion make her graduation already? yeah it seems to be. |
Sorry about that. It's called Orange Colour Wind. |
| Kakera are weird. Every Arc is a different one which Hanyuu takes Rika to every time she does. When she does her memories replace the ones of the Rika living in that world. How far back she can go from her death in each Kakera however is defined by Hanyuus Power. Which is the reason why by the time of Matsubiriyashi she could only go back two weeks. Hanyuu can combine and create Kakera. Normally from taking parts of others. Both Mio and Matsu were made as such. However something must have happened if Hanyuu is to add it to a Kakera. Rika went back several years at first. Which is when she met Akasaka. Thus Hanyuu can add this to a fragment. However there is a consequence. Satoshi couldn't be saved because Rika hadn't tried to do so in any previous world. Thus he is in a medically induced coma in Matsu and Mio. Each Kakera also has its own little quirks. Slightly different histories, events and places. Most of Gou's world inconsistencies can be explained by such. For example the second floor classroom. Hanyuu exists outside of Kakera and seems to able to interact with many simultaneously. Appearing in seperate ones with seperate Rikas at the same time. Hanyuu getting killed in a Kakera does not kill her in others. Even when she took a bullet for Takano and 'died' it was not so subtly hinted that was still around. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 2:47 AM
| Can't blame Rika tbf after everything that has happened to her but I also understand Satoko. There is a lot more to Satoko than just "she's angry because Rika isn't with her" She's had a very traumatic life and is mentally very weak, never asks for help. Same here, she tries to play it off because she's "strong" but ultimately it ends up destroying her, exactly like Tatarigoshi-hen. Rika should've stood up for Satoko but I can see where she's coming from, something nobody in her world would understand due to the loops. It's tragic really |
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| Here I thought Satoko didn't pass the exam and hates being away from Rika, but she did pass, and yet she barely making any adjustment to the school. Yes, Satoko, doodling on the first day of class is something you should do. Heck, she even arrived at the class late, the hell did you do? You had no problem in the previous years before and even had to cook breakfast sometimes. Worse, she was even hoping that Rika would bail out of her dreams, like, 3 times. Seriously, R07 is expecting anyone to feel sorry for her? She just sounds like a hypocrite. And Gou!Rika is such a sad character. We still don't have a clear explanation why she wanted to go to St. Lucia other than it's "outside of Hinamizawa". Was it Shion's influence? The elite atmosphere? Any other school should do, so why St. Lucia? Because it's hell and we need Satoko to suffer. Even the drama happens just because they need one with Rika barely doing anything. She's not braindead or something, right? She should remember Satoko's mental being. Just like she should know that Takano is a prime suspect in Gou and yet only decided to confront her in Nekodamashi like a dumbass. Heck, even if she may not remember Minagoroshi, Tataridamashi still exists. At this point, I'm just waiting for Hanyuu or any other supernatural beings to show up and end everything. |
Hulio said: Tsukumo_Yuuma said: Yes this's the fragment from OG Higu, Matsuribayashi. But what do you mean by "Rika turns into Bernkastel", Rika doesn't turn into Bern they're not the same lol (as far as i know from Higurashi, i didn't finish Umineko yet) KaijuSloth said: In Higurashi terms, yes. Rika is Bernkastel.. but they're not exactly the same.Sorry about this misconception. I haven't read or watched Umineko, so all my knowledge about Bernkastel is from internet forums. I really want to read/watch Umineko, but i hear that the anime isn't the best and I don't have a lot of free time to spend reading the whole visual novel. I hope that after Gou we will get a proper Umineko anime adaptation, but i don't think this will happen. Putting it simple, it's a bit like Multiple Personality, but they are more or less present at the same time. Rika is Rika, who lived from the age of 0 to... the current age, 15? Bern is Rika who was 'born' from the years of looping. Within the anime, whenever Rika speaks in deeper tone, its like "Bernkastel mode". That's why in Matsuribayashi was it, at the beginning when Rika didn't remember anything, she was able to be just Rika, but when she retained "Bernkastel's" memories, she immediately changed. What i understood from Matsuribayashi and Saikoroshi is that they'r not the same as Bernkastel already exists apart from Rika (explaining things at the beginning of Minagoroshi, helping young Takano in Matsuribayashi) Rika cannot travel between fragments by herself but Bern can (and said that at the end of Matsuribayashi). They have the same memories but they're not the same person. |
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| Satoko going mad. Something tells me she's going to fuck some shit up Btw that school seems shitty.. Study study study I would be like fuck that lol. |
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Tsukumo_Yuuma said: Haven't read Saikoroshi so can't speak much for that, but from the other sources, I've come to the conclusion that they are the "same" person.What i understood from Matsuribayashi and Saikoroshi is that they'r not the same as Bernkastel already exists apart from Rika (explaining things at the beginning of Minagoroshi, helping young Takano in Matsuribayashi) Rika cannot travel between fragments by herself but Bern can (and said that at the end of Matsuribayashi). They have the same memories but they're not the same person. There is basically 2 questions that needs to be asked. How do we define a Person and how they are different from one another. And who/what is Bernkastel. Back in the day when the debates were going hot on the forums about Rika, Bern and Oyashiro-sama, Ryukishi issued a letter (as Bernkastel) saying that Rika and Bernkastel are indeed different. But this is the old Ryukishi, or more accurately, Bernkastel. I have my doubts that what was said is that straightforward. For example, a person with multiple personality disorder, are the different personalities a same person? or not? They're the "same" but different, a kin to Schrödinger's cat, just by talking to her, you can't know to who you're talking to. Not saying this is the case with Rika but I do believe it's something similar. The very least, Bernkastel isn't a physical entity, at least yet. In my opinion, Rika is Rika, Frederica is Frederica, but Frederica is the Rika who has lived for 100 years, a collective consciousness between the Fragments. Whereas there is always a new Rika in a new Fragment. What comes to the screenshot without the full context. "The part of me that lived a hundred years" points towards that Rika acknowledges Frederica as a part of herself, that they are or were the "same" person. "Maybe it still exists even now on a higher plane, one beyond the human world" this is a purely subjective statement. Just for the sake of argument, if Bern was a multiple personality which had been "dealt with", one could think of something similar. From what I can take from your point of view, it sounds like Rika and Bern are both physical entities who could stand next to another and acknowledge they are different persons. If this is the case I would like to see some proof without a shadow of doubt of it's truthfulness. |
Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
LockeGran said: Here I thought Satoko didn't pass the exam and hates being away from Rika, but she did pass, and yet she barely making any adjustment to the school. Yes, Satoko, doodling on the first day of class is something you should do. Heck, she even arrived at the class late, the hell did you do? You had no problem in the previous years before and even had to cook breakfast sometimes. Worse, she was even hoping that Rika would bail out of her dreams, like, 3 times. Seriously, R07 is expecting anyone to feel sorry for her? She just sounds like a hypocrite. And Gou!Rika is such a sad character. We still don't have a clear explanation why she wanted to go to St. Lucia other than it's "outside of Hinamizawa". Was it Shion's influence? The elite atmosphere? Any other school should do, so why St. Lucia? Because it's hell and we need Satoko to suffer. Even the drama happens just because they need one with Rika barely doing anything. She's not braindead or something, right? She should remember Satoko's mental being. Just like she should know that Takano is a prime suspect in Gou and yet only decided to confront her in Nekodamashi like a dumbass. Heck, even if she may not remember Minagoroshi, Tataridamashi still exists. At this point, I'm just waiting for Hanyuu or any other supernatural beings to show up and end everything. Shion definitely did not like the School. She bailed out when she got the chance. Heck it makes no sense why Rika would like it either. She very clearly dislikes being told what to do and what not to do, makes sense since she has lived longer than we probably will. Why did she choose such a uptight serious school. It's not like she was lacking options either. Honestly her past interactions with Shion probably had given her some insight into how much she dislikes the school. Disliking Hinamaizawa I can understand to an extent. Her friends are moving in their own paths after all, but this is kinda screwy. Felt bad for Takano. She got treated like shit, and grew emotionally attached to Hifumis research. Not much for either Rika and Satoko If they are going to justify this somehow. Something really really extreme has to happen to Satoko, and Rika has to be the one doing it. Worse that what Takano experienced when she was in the orphanage. Worse than what her uncle was planning to do to her. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 6:58 AM
Hulio said: From what I can take from your point of view, it sounds like Rika and Bern are both physical entities who could stand next to another and acknowledge they are different persons. If this is the case I would like to see some proof without a shadow of doubt of it's truthfulness. Yeah i consider them both like separate entities, like how Bern appeared in front of small Takano and asked her if she want to live or die, Rika can't travel through fragments like her so this wasn't her. Bern has all the memories of Rika's 100 years of despair but she's different than her. (i think R07 said that before somewhere) if you consider the manga canon then yes they stood next to each other and kinda acknowledged that they're different. (i think R07 is supposed to be supervising it and he said in an interview that you can consider different adaptations canon because he likes to add new little things that you can get from each adaptation) (i didn't read the Umi spoiler cuz i didn't finish it yet) |
Tsukumo_YuumaFeb 12, 2021 7:16 AM
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| Bern knows the mii~ Nipah~ thing so it's pretty much confirmed that she has Something to do with Rika. One thing I don't get is the logic error thing. Apparently there was one which led to Bern getting stuck in it. A logic error is a contradiction of facts, which far as I know doesn't exist in Higurashi. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 7:30 AM
| Was Satoko expecting to pass her year with a breeze, considering she couldn't even tell the difference between a broccoli and cauliflower 2.5 years ago? Oh well, Rika is gonna get murdered next episode lol |
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Tsukumo_Yuuma said: Bern (I guess she was?) indeed did visit the young Miyo, but I can't really say what that Bern was. Definitely looks older, and taller than what we see in Umineko.Yeah i consider them both like separate entities, like how Bern appeared in front of small Takano and asked her if she want to live or die, Rika can't travel through fragments like her so this wasn't her. Bern has all the memories of Rika's 100 years of despair but she's different than her. (i think R07 said that before somewhere) if you consider the manga canon then yes they stood next to each other and kinda acknowledged that they're different. (i think R07 is supposed to be supervising it and he said in an interview that you can consider different adaptations canon because he likes to add new little things that you can get from each adaptation) (i didn't read the Umi spoiler cuz i didn't finish it yet) What comes to the manga page, sadly that doesn't prove this one way or another. It is entirely subjective scene in abstractive setting, don't know how far you're in Umineko, but you've probably noted that in the "When They Cry" series, everything is about "lies" and perspective. There's absolutely no proof that what Bern says doesn't contribute to her personal agenda, whatever it may be. On the other hand, her considering herself as different person doesn't mean it is true either. Rika too is having her doubts about this. There is also no saying that the scene isn't a representation of Rika's inner thoughts, just because we see two bodies in a picture doesn't mean they physically exist, Bern here could only be a visual projection. One really could go into full Battler mode on a topic of this kind, where arguments back and forth are nothing less of Devil's Proofs. Actually quite fitting. The only thing in this series we can blindly believe on is, that nothing here should be simply taken by the face value. (Can't really speak for GOU yet tho) |
Intelligent gets through situations which wise avoids. |
FuegoIndigo2 said: KaijuSloth said: Finally, something interesting is happening. I'm still not sure, if this is the same timeline from the original Higurashi, in which Rika turns into Bernkastel. Dumb Satako understand that you need to study in order to succeed in life, but at the same time Rika seems a little hypocritical. She wanted to go to this school together with Satoko, but after getting in she doesn't really help her. Rika is much more mature due to her experience with the time loop, so she should understand that Satoko needs help. I know that Rike is pressured by her peers, but still. They were best friends. Do I need to remind you that Rika invited Satoko to the parlor and asked her if she needed help. However, Satoko said no when she wanted to say yes. So it’s not Rika’s fault. It is Satoko’s fault she was isolated. Well yes, but Satoko didn't want to go because the other girls invited only Rika. She wouldn't feel comfortable hanging out with people who don't like her. She chose to decline the invitation, because she still wanted Rika to live out her dream. Rika could offer to help Satoko in their free time after lessons or in the evening, when they could be alone. I don't think that Satoko would be able to hide her test results from Rika, if they were as close as they were back in Hinamizawa. This means that, Rika has gradually started neglecting Satoko and their friendship, leaving Satoko alone without friends or help. |
KaijuSlothFeb 12, 2021 8:14 AM
| I've never liked Satoko as a character, but psychologically this was interesting, as can be seen from the debate here too. I hope it doesn't turn out that she is developing HS because the alternative is more interesting. One thing that has always bothered me about the show is the return to slice of life at the beginning of each arc. It's so very moe and unrealistic, everyone behaving in unnaturally nice ways. What if we shouldn't be taking that at face value to be the psychological reality that exists for the characters? I mean everyone except perhaps Keiichi is pretty messed up from the start. Mion and Shion have their family background in the yakuza, and Shion even keeps carrying a taser. Rena has her own family issues which make her put up a front of cutesy behaviour, while displaying a hoarding habit so desperately that it looks like coping behaviour, always wanting to take home everything cute and in her free time hanging out at a dump. Rika obviously has the experiences of dying, even if she can't remember everything exactly. That's why she's unable to do anything about the loops, being mentally paralyzed after all that she's been through. And then there's Satoko. Her behaviour is so over the top ridiculous that I'm wondering if she's the most damaged of them all. The way she boasts about her trap making skills, or about her academic prowess, even the way she laughs, which is described as unbecoming in this episode; these all look like she's pretending to be okay when she's not, even possibly having some dissociation. (Takano has a similarly unnatural speaking style). It wouldn't be surprising. Her parents died either by accident or were killed by her when in L5. Her brother disappeared. She's suffered abuse from her aunt and uncle. The picture of her in the ending theme suggests that there was also sexual abuse. And her relationship with Irie actually made me think that he has such thoughts about her too, saying things that adults really shouldn't say to children. It's all implied rather than said directly, but the theme seems to be there, even more in the original series. Add to that the fact that the whole dam war left her whole family outcasts. So even without the Hinamizawa syndrome we have people who have a lot of traumas and issues to deal with. Add to that the really black and white nature of the series: people tend to be good or bad, and good people do bad things only because of the syndrome. But what if the goodness is only a facade? Satoko already has this dark undercurrent, it's just that instead of being nasty, she's displayed it by behaving unnaturally joyously considering her past and her condition. And why is she now acting so entitled? Because that's what we've seen despite her being an outcast in the village. There's been at least inconsiderateness if not meanness in the way she's gone about the trap making etc., and everyone's been tolerating it, maybe because they feel sorry for her. She's always felt entitled to her fun and games because that's how everyone treats her. And now suddenly she's at this school where kindness from others needs to be earned, and she doesn't know how to do that. The black and white treatment means that she's used to seeing people who are overtly nice because all of her closest friends have a similar dysfunctional coping mechanism, and then others who are totally evil. Not only is such thinking one possible reaction to traumas, but the fallacy has been strengthened by the environment she's grown up in. So when Rika suddenly starts behaving in a way she can't understand, it's perfectly conceivable that she sees Rika to have suddenly become evil, whether there's HS or not. All this made me question the nature of the syndrome in the first place. If everyone in the series has so many issues, to what extent is the syndrome responsible for the acts of violence? Sure it's there, but maybe the way it manifests also has to do with the psychological reality these people have been living in up until they develop L5 symptoms. I don't want to defend Satoko's actions really, but I'm trying to say that psychologically there's already enough baggage to cause all kinds of reactions, and what happens at the school might just be the last straw (in addition perhaps to HS) when the fear of losing Rika sets in. So whatever might happen in the next episodes, maybe it's not acceptable, but it could be understandable. Come to think of it, it's really really weird how it's never suggested that Satoko or others are going through any kind of therapy or counselling. It's all just "learn to lean on others" "Okay, done" and then everything's supposedly fine. |
FeorgFeb 12, 2021 9:34 AM
pupul said: i mean i get the point that higu gou isnt realy a good mystery but in my ayes it ist even suposed to be a mystery im watching it cuz its exisitng to find out how does umineko connects to higu and how bern came to be sry for my bad english btw Dont watch Gou for any big tie into Umineko. Theres only five episodes left so the most they will be able to do is a few references. Didnt you watch the Original? This isnt going to be Berns origin story. She already existed by the time of Matsubiriyashi. Shes a seperate entity from this Furude Rika, as she herself states. |
| Damn, people and the "Satoko just didn't study enough." This kind of formalized education isn't the exact same for everyone and doesn't work for everyone. It seems incredibly difficult for Satoko to sit still and pay attention for long periods of time, though she is trying. Her spending all her time studying with no break and no social support, which is what is now happening in the story, is probably at or approaching unbearable. Also, "Didn't Satoko already learn to ask for help?" This is a different context. Everyone knew Satoko's uncle abusing her is wrong. Struggling in school, well, refer to the attitude I mentioned above. random_weirdo said: The problem here is that Satoko seems to be having some feelings for Rika, or at least a very strong platonic/friendlike love, and they're showing in a very unhealthy way. She isn't able to stand her ground and tell Rika to go alone because she's afraid to not be with Rika, as she said herself while looking for her results. The fact that being with Rika is her endgoal is reinforced by the fact that she gives absolutely zero fucks about studying and only does so when faced with the prospect of being separated from Rika. She also stalks Rika while she's hanging with her new friends and seems extremely jealous of them, like when she focuses on Rika's new friends right before rejecting her offer to study together. To be honest, this reminds me a lot of Homura's love for Madoka, which has been distorted into possessiveness and obsession. Um... Okay. Satoko is studying. She doesn't like it, but that was a good portion of the episode, her studying. Also, Satoko isn't being possessive or controlling of Rika at this point. She didn't think studying so hard was worth it, but she did it for Rika. She didn't think the other girls would be enjoyable to hang out with, but didn't try to stop Rika from doing so. "Standing her ground" and telling Rika's she's lonely or scared or something would be being controlling, and would contradict what she learned from over-relying on Satoshi before June 1983 even. Also, Rika and Satoko's strong feelings are mutual. The feeling probably weren't romantic when they were both 11, but still, they both feel very strongly for each other. In the sound novels, Rika mentions that she and Satoko are like family, or probably even closer. Satoko doesn't have anyone other than Rika. No family, her other friends were older and at this point she doesn't see them. I'm not "blaming" Rika for anything, but at this point yeah, her neglecting the friendship is kind of shitty. Also, this is something I've been wondering for the past episodes, does no one remember what Rika did in Rei/Saikoroshi-hen? Here's to their mutual unhealthy feelings for each other! |
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| That just makes gous Rika feel even more fake. She Clearly notices that something is wrong with Satoko, but chooses to not follow it up. Thats the key point, she noticed that something was wrong, and didnt say anything when her new friends degraded her. She knows that something is wrong, but decides not to act. No wonder she seems so stupid in this series, shes ignoring information that she already knows. The cicda crying is emphasized again. Satoko is going l5. She of all people should know that Satoko has trouble asking for help. How her becoming isolated flares up her condition. Irie said that she was ok, so Rika probably didnt worry, but cmon. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 10:19 AM
kofmaster said: Satoko wanted that help, she just can't be honest and Rika know it. Satoko always do that when there's something wrong, but this time Rika didn't even went to talk with her in private, because she's busy with her new life. That's very dysfunctional. People should talk about their needs not do the direct opposite. Rika is not her babysitter. Satoko did everything wrong, starting with going to an expensive school not for studying but for Rika and doesn't even spend time with her. Finishing by being a total dick to Rika's dream and new friends. Seems that the only thing that grew were her breasts. |
| @Hulio @Tsukumo_Yuuma Bern was born from Rika's struggle. She is Rika but she is even more than that. Rika is just Rika free from all of that. You both agree on that. There are 3 questions: 1)Are Frederika Bernkastel and Witch Bernkastel also different entities with the same origin(Rika)? 2)Frederica in Higurashi clearly isnt like the Witch Bernkastel, and we know she separated from Rika in Saikoroshi, so is Gou the creation of Witch Bernkastel? 3)How do we know that Gou Rika isnt Frederika? Unless if 1987 is a different fragment where Saikoroshi didnt happen, Rika shouldnt have any "powers", like glowing red eyes. |
jTiKey said: kofmaster said: Satoko wanted that help, she just can't be honest and Rika know it. Satoko always do that when there's something wrong, but this time Rika didn't even went to talk with her in private, because she's busy with her new life. That's very dysfunctional. People should talk about their needs not do the direct opposite. Rika is not her babysitter. Satoko did everything wrong, starting with going to an expensive school not for studying but for Rika and doesn't even spend time with her. Finishing by being a total dick to Rika's dream and new friends. Seems that the only thing that grew were her breasts. What Satoko does is not really redeemable. At all. Going from what we've seen up until now, maybe that will change with the next eps. Rika should have known and noticed as 100 year old who knows her friends better than they might know themselves, that something was going on. Nobodys asking Rika to babysit Satoko, but she should have forseen trouble coming her way. Satoko is emotionally fragile, and Rika literally knows that better than anyone in that world. So why ignore it? She should already know that leads to issues down the line. Ps. Lack of Communication is a common theme in Higurashi. Even in Umineko. Its not something specific to Gou. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 10:31 AM
pupul said: Chargecoulomb said: well frederika existed not the bern from umineko she is post logic eror frederika Dont watch Gou for any big tie into Umineko. Theres only five episodes left so the most they will be able to do is a few references. Didnt you watch the Original? This isnt going to be Berns origin story. She already existed by the time of Matsubiriyashi. Shes a seperate entity from this Furude Rika, as she herself states. And where is this logic error supposed to happen? We havent seen any such thing yet, and I doubt it will show up in the last eps. A logic error is a conflict of facts. A paradox. There is nothing of the sort in gou. Her appearance is simmilar to Uminekos Bern. The only thing that she needs to do wear that gothic lolita dress. Besides there are many Rikas stuck in loops. So focising on one is kinda pointless. Now we're just waiting for the final mastermind twist. Mabe Hanyuu, maybe Irie. Who knows? Whoever it is it probably wont have anything to do with the witches. I expect something in the end to atleast reference Umineko, but nothing direct as Bern of Lambda appearing. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 11:07 AM
| Never got why people make Bernakstel existence more complex than it is. Even just Lambda's memoir explains pretty well where she came from and how she was born. |
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Jin_uzuki said: Never got why people make Bernakstel existence more complex than it is. Even just Lambda's memoir explains pretty well where she came from and how she was born. The manga shows her being with Hanyuu when they discuss about Santa. Although it could very well be the mangaka having some fun. |
Chargecoulomb said: Jin_uzuki said: Never got why people make Bernakstel existence more complex than it is. Even just Lambda's memoir explains pretty well where she came from and how she was born. The manga shows her being with Hanyuu when they discuss about Santa. Although it could very well be the mangaka having some fun. ? Why wouldn't she be with Hanyuu? It's basically a scene from Rika's past. Every time Umineko shows scenes from Bernkastel's past they always show Rika. Heck the first thing she does in Umineko is Nipaa to Battler lol. |
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| Satoko why you would think you don't need to follow up studying after entering the elite academy lol...you still have 3 more years left to complete your nine-year compulsory education. At the same time Rika‘s been obsessed with this religious atmosphere in terms of her tone changing. |
Jin_uzuki said: Never got why people make Bernakstel existence more complex than it is. Even just Lambda's memoir explains pretty well where she came from and how she was born. Very much this. I guess it's that people want to believe disassociation is some kind of complicated, magical thing when it's just an unfun response to trauma. For the record, I don't think this might be Bernkastel's origin story, that's already all of Higurashi, I just think being killed or killing herself with onigari-no-ryuuou it might be how she gains the freedom and powers as a voyager witch that she obviously didn't have as Rika. But I'm not counting on it, especially because of this one line in Saikoroshi-hen. random_weirdo said: Look, I'm sorry but the problem isn't that Satoko doesn't like studying, but more the fact the she isn't even trying and still expects everything to go her way. We know that Satoko can study and get good results when she puts her mind to it, which is the point that the first half of the episode proved. But after she entered St. Lucia, we only ever see her trying when that teacher tells her to go to the hall for after school study. Before that, she fell asleep in class (which, as someone said, isn't something that happens unless you stayed up late the night before, and we're talking about her first class here so it's not like she stayed up studying), she doodled the whole time and barely took any notes. Ha ha, tbh when I saw that scene since it cut from Rika I interpreted it as Rika doodling and having an easy time while Satoko struggled to stay awake and pay attention. I rewatched it and it probably was Satoko doing the doodling. However, she is used to mostly self-study not just sitting listening for hours while taking notes. I don't think her struggling to stay awake necessarily means she's been staying up late. Satoko was definitely rude to the teacher, but I also interpreted her reaction as "I've been trying this hard and now you expect me to give even more?" instead of "You mean I actually have to study??" And then, she does do the extra class. Didn't mention in my last reply but I don't think her noticing Rika having fun through a window assumably on the way back from said class is "stalking". I do agree both Rika and Satoko are young and have their own character flaws, various issues, and I don't really want to "blame" either one. |
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| Lol so we're just not going to see more of Satoko's time at the school to show she can't really fit in, paralleling Shion's experience? All we're going to see is she thinks the studies are boring? What about her roommate? Does she have one, and have the two not hit it off or made an attempt to get to know each other? Where does she go after class, anyway, and what are her interactions with with the other girls? You're trying to tell me Satoko having to study hard and telling Rika to go enjoy herself is what pushes her to the edge? Sure, Jan. |
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prepare4trouble said: I do agree both Rika and Satoko are young and have their own character flaws, various issues, and I don't really want to "blame" either one. It's one of those situations (imo) where no one is "At fault." Satoko feeling the way she does, especially as like a 15-year old, makes perfect sense. And there is nothing wrong either with Rika living the dream she's fought for for years. So I don't like how this could actually become a motivation for Satoko to kill Rika (if that's what happens) or for Rika to learn a lesson about "not leaving her hometown. " Lil-Bird said: Lol so we're just not going to see more of Satoko's time at the school to show she can't really fit in, paralleling Shion's experience? All we're going to see is she thinks the studies are boring? What about her roommate? Does she have one, and have the two not hit it off or made an attempt to get to know each other? Where does she go after class, anyway, and what are her interactions with with the other girls? You're trying to tell me Satoko having to study hard and telling Rika to go enjoy herself is what pushes her to the edge? Sure, Jan. This is a great point. She and Rika are living their entire lives at this school, and literally all we are seeing is some shots of Satoko not studying and Rika chatting in the parlor. There must be way more going on that we just don't see (roommates, clubs, time they must find to spend together, meal time...etc.) |
TKNion said: The worst part of this is I'm absolutely certain Satoko will be either forgiven or her memories will be erased to the point where she bears no blame in the last episodes and so they can all be bffs again. I think in the end both looper Satoko and looper Rika will be erased, or at best become "gods" like Hanyuu. Gou is the first time they had Rika worrying about what would happen even if she survives, bringing up the idea of one day waking up in 1983 again and lashing out during her final scene with Hanyuu. So, I think they will pretty much push an ending saying the loopers don't belong in the world of humans anymore. Then we get some epilogue where Rika and Satoko without any looper memories become friends. Chargecoulomb said: One thing I don't get is the logic error thing. Apparently there was one which led to Bern getting stuck in it. A logic error is a contradiction of facts, which far as I know doesn't exist in Higurashi. The logic error in Bern's case was described as |
NeonDZFeb 12, 2021 4:43 PM
not_a_sticker said: Honestly, the conflict between Satoko and Rika seems forced, Gou goes its way to over-punctuate/exaggerate some characters' flaws in order to have them at odds with each other. It kind of makes it almost as if their friendship was superficial. First of all, Rika has known Satoko for over a hundred years, she should have realised that, even if her wish is to attend a prestigious school, her friend wouldn't be comfortable with such a life. Bring a mischievous, energetic girl to a stuffy, strict place would do her no good. Second, yeah, she offered her help to study but it felt pretty backhanded, again, she must be aware of Satoko's flaws, ei; she's proud, won't ask for help (as some others have said, this is not the follow-up of Minagoroshi, but Matsuribarashi) and had she really wanted to lend a hand, she would have done it when the two of them were alone together. Third, she adapted rather well to the mannerisms of St Lucia Students, politely declining their invitations some days to spend time with her supposed best friend wouldn't have hurt her new relationships. As for Satoko, telling Rika, who isn't just her best friend but also the closest thing to a family she currently has, about her sincere doubts regarding enrolling to the academy shouldn't have been a problem. Agreeing while expecting for Rika to change her mind, waiting for her to give up, was condescending of her friend's dream. Likewise, there was no real effort from her part to keep up with her studies when they finally accepted in the academy, obviously slacking-off during class, nor she tried to adapt in the new enviroment, or make some new friends or treat her teacher with respect. Personally, her attitude was as if she was playing hard to get, not only to Rika but everyone else as well, and then blaming it on the rest when she was alone with no one to turn for aid or companionship. As much as the situation is Rika's fault, she shares the responsibility for alienating the world against her and then wonder why she is suffering. She reminds me of Saikoroshi!Satoko, somehow. I don't know... In past adaptations, DEEN's anime, the VN+manga, their friendship felt more genuine. Here it's shown as something built on routine, co-dependency and a shallow sense of sympathy (not empathy). It's quite saddening, in a way. Your response is exactly how I felt about this Higurashi. It doesn't even feel natural. Some themes remained, but all the characters are like NPCs designated to a role almost. I feel like this anime is like watching a clickbait title where it tells me how to feel and how to act. "Wow look here, Satoko acts like a bitch so you MUST loathe her, that way the plot will make sense!" I might have to consider Gou non-canon for myself if this anime progresses to be as bad as I expect. This is just Danganronpa 3 all over again; good game series that went anime-only, so the pacing and the atmosphere dissipate. |
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JackVessalius13 said: Satoko did nothing wrong , all what she wanted is to be with rika , but rika left her :( I am blaming rika for this shit The problem with Gou is that it's not either of their fault. You could even put some blame on K1 as well. He's been through both Rikas and Satokos situation before. He should have known that Satoko wouldn't enjoy going to such a school. I think there is still an year to go so Satoko is probably gonna fall into the special remedial class. Shion is mia, the fact that she has a very negative opinion of the place should have raised some red flags. Guess not though. She should have at least heard that they were going to the place. It's really convenient for the plot that some of the characters are missing or out of character or that Rika threw away her intelligence. It. just feels like. Gou wasn't made to fit in with the rest of the series. The series was changed to fit in with Gou. |
ChargecoulombFeb 12, 2021 11:25 PM
| Man, that montage of rika n satoko studying and spending time together. just to beautiful with cutest OST. Idk man, i nearly forget that's this NOT kind of show. = = |
YES |
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