"Family-love" in anime

abhutrash said:
Still don't see why real-life, consensual incest relationships are seen as 'disgusting'. Yes, the two should practice safe sex, since incestuous relationships can lead to birth defects, but other than that, there really isn't a legitimate reason the stigma exists.

It's the same as LGBT; if two consenting adults want to have a romantic/sexual relationship, it's none of your business to tell them they cant. :/

KreatorX said:
Have no problems seeing such characters or moments happening in anime or other works of fiction. Honest opinion.

I find incest to be rather weird in real life, but I definitely don't think people should be 'fucked in the ass' (by whom? the brother? lol) or jailed for 'life' for committing it. There are far serious crimes than something like silly incest.

Pullman said:
Wow you sound like a fun guy, where everything you don't like gets called disgusting and unhealthy but if you like it it's not a problem at all even if it's the same thing or worse. Great example of how subjective morality is, how it is just a result of your preferences what you find disgusting and unhealthy and what not.

Objectively speaking either:

a) the Yuzu example is a non-issue as well because it is both fiction all the same
b) Yosuga no Sora is much more disgusting because they actually fuck and have a relationship and it isn't just mostly you interpreting more into a work than there is in that work (like with the yuzu example).

anything beyond that is just you having a fetish or a preference for one thing and pretending that makes something less morally objectionable. It doesn't tho.


There isn't really anything to discuss with people who use their own preferences and enjoyment as the sole and ultimate criteria to classify stuff as 'disgusting and unhealthy' or 'attractive and unproblematic'.

xfinityretaile1 said:




I just have a strong opinion against incest in real life haha, it's just not right imo. I don't even think LGBT can be categorized the same, that feels more natural crazy enough. Deff worse crimes and people can deff do whatever they want, me finding incest shitty shouldn't prevent anyone from doing it.

Pullman said:
I don't like incest either, I just can't respect it if your moral judgments are that obviously biased and inconsistent when it comes to fiction. It's about being consistent with your own views more than it is about what those views are. As it is it is less of a moral judgment and more like you just add moral attributes to cases of it based on liking or not liking it, after the fact. I don't get how morality can work that way.

I find incest pretty repulsive myself as a concept. It isn't even about the genetics, it's just about being romantic/sexual with someone who's family, that are two types of relationships and being close that I don't ever want to mix. I feel like puking when I think of someone that is my family and then imagine wanting to fuck them. No matter who or how attractive they are, family is family and twisting that relationship into something sexual doesn't sit well with me.

That's why I can't imagine suddenly not feeling that way for a relationship like in Yosuga no Sora (I can ignore how I feel and find it interesting as a theme but that's it, I will never ever find incest in any context 'attractive'). I just can't imagine how a selective morality like that works.

I can ignore something being incest, like in hentai where it's just words anyway and I can easily pretend they aren't related, but cherrypicking one example to not find it disgusting but rather attractive and appealing while at the same time bashing a much more harmless example just doesn't make any sense to me. Either you like or you don't like incest. Either it is okay in all fictional cases, or you still find it disgusting in fiction.

The way you wrote about it makes it seem like you don't care about incest itself and just add positive or negative attributes to cases of it solely depending on how much you liked it and not based on whether it is actual incest or just bait, whether it is real or fictional. Making your moral judgments not on principle but in hindsight, just based on whether you found it attractive or not, and I find that weird. That's not really dislking incest. That's just you not having found many examples of it that you found attractive. Which you obviously do, on some level.

xfinityretaile1 said:
I won't disagree with you, my post was just an subjective opinion, very honest one at that cause I don't bite my tongue on stuff I feel strongly about. I guess my best answer is I can separate fiction from reality, like what you said in yosuga no sora you don't really think too much they're related even tho it's repeatedly stated, you more think of the theme of the show and what it's going for.

Manaban said:

...you mean society's response to incestuous relationships, which was pretty clear-cut the theme of the last arc, which is the only arc where an incestuous relationship is even present?

You're saying you're ignoring your real life opinions on incest, and focusing more on...stances representing real life opinions on incest and character responses meant to revolve around the perception of incest in...society...?

xfinityretaile1 said:
I just have a strong opinion against incest in real life haha, it's just not right imo. I don't even think LGBT can be categorized the same, that feels more natural crazy enough. Deff worse crimes and people can deff do whatever they want, me finding incest shitty shouldn't prevent anyone from doing it.

Pullman said:
I don't like incest either, I just can't respect it if your moral judgments are that obviously biased and inconsistent when it comes to fiction. It's about being consistent with your own views more than it is about what those views are. As it is it is less of a moral judgment and more like you just add moral attributes to cases of it based on liking or not liking it, after the fact. I don't get how morality can work that way.

I find incest pretty repulsive myself as a concept. It isn't even about the genetics, it's just about being romantic/sexual with someone who's family, that are two types of relationships and being close that I don't ever want to mix. I feel like puking when I think of someone that is my family and then imagine wanting to fuck them. No matter who or how attractive they are, family is family and twisting that relationship into something sexual doesn't sit well with me.

abhutrash said:
People who are strongly against incest cant cite anything other than "It's not right" or "It makes me feel sick". This is the exact rhetoric used to justify and normalize homophobia back before homosexuality was more widely accepted.

abhutrash said:
People who are strongly against incest cant cite anything other than "It's not right" or "It makes me feel sick". This is the exact rhetoric used to justify and normalize homophobia back before homosexuality was more widely accepted.

abhutrash said:
I don't understand why mixing family and romantic love is 'wrong'. Maybe it's cause I've never been that close to family. Maybe its because I'm asexual. Regardless, I feel like we should all be constantly challenging ourselves to question our morality. If you can't come up with a reason to condemn an action other than "Because society says so", then maybe you need to reevaluate how you approach the matter.

Satyr_icon said:


And your rhetoric of pliable morality was historically used to defend paedophilia, eugenics and all kinds of other evils. It works both ways. Does this simple fact make your reasoning wrong?

There are things that are just inherently wrong. I believe no one here needs any thorough argumentations as to why necrophilia or cannibalism is fucked up, for instance.

Lunilah said:
Unless you've been living on another planet, i find it hard to believe you've never come across the dangers of inbreeding when talking about it, since you imply you have.

Quick Refs:
What is Consanguinity?
Consanguinity and its relevance to clinical genetics
Marriage between first cousins doubles risk of birth defects, say researchers

abhutrash said:
Still don't see why real-life, consensual incest relationships are seen as 'disgusting'. Yes, the two should practice safe sex, since incestuous relationships can lead to birth defects, but other than that, there really isn't a legitimate reason the stigma exists.

It's the same as LGBT; if two consenting adults want to have a romantic/sexual relationship, it's none of your business to tell them they cant. :/

abhutrash said:
That's why I said this m8In the modern day, it is possible to have sexual relations without worrying about conception. Only reason accidents happen is because people are stupid or manipulative.

abhutrash said:
While I can respect that you say your take on the matter shouldn't be grounds for preventing other from partaking, this is the exact type of response I'm talking about. People who are strongly against incest cant cite anything other than "It's not right" or "It makes me feel sick". This is the exact rhetoric used to justify and normalize homophobia back before homosexuality was more widely accepted.Agree with Pullman in terms of arbitrary separation of standards in fiction and reality. Again tho, the moral feeling described is only based in restrictive societal definitions of relationships. I don't understand why mixing family and romantic love is 'wrong'. Maybe it's cause I've never been that close to family. Maybe its because I'm asexual. Regardless, I feel like we should all be constantly challenging ourselves to question our morality. If you can't come up with a reason to condemn an action other than "Because society says so", then maybe you need to reevaluate how you approach the matter.

abhutrash said:
These are all matters in which a party is unwillingly affected in a negative way. The comparison is flimsy at best.

Lunilah said:
I admittedly didn't read every post on this thread and missed any of the other posts you made. However, it still leaves me with the same impression when you acknowledge it then say right after that nobody has been able to cite anything other than feelings, making me think what you know is just hearsay or that it's of little value to you. You also didn't acknowledge it when you articulated people not being able to come up with a reason other than society saying so.

I see where you're coming from, as there are a lot of unadopted children that need homes and surrogate pregnancies, but you still seem to discredit the genealogy aspects being a good enough motivator if you consider the implications of practicing familial love, which has real basis, and as you mentioned people are stupid. As well as not understanding why that would matter to people, which is a completely different conversation and you've already listed possible reasons, but i can't think of a good enough metaphor to bridge that thought right now. Perhaps you could attribute the thought to why people don't like certain types of music despite having nothing against it as people are just complicated creatures.

abhutrash said:
Fair point that I did discount genealogy as being a motivator, that's my bad. That said, if I could approach this from a weird angle for a sec, I'd like to point out that genealogy also shows procreation with someone with a developmental disorder like autism leads to higher chances of such a disorder in offspring. But nobody would dare say loving an autistic person is wrong, you feel me?

My main thing is that I want consistency in how we look at morality at least on an individual basis. As I see it, the stigma against incest is super lopsided and unhelpful for people that might find themselves in a situation where this becomes a concern. We should be working on educating people about the risks associated with it, rather than dismissing them as immoral trash.

Pullman said:
I don't really care about society in this context, all I know is how the thought of incest makes me feel and it is something I find repulsive. Homosexuality never made me feel that way at all, gay porn is unpleasant to watch aesthetically because I don't find males very attractive but I don't have a negative emotional response to it. Only incest makes me feel appalled in that way.

But even if it did I would not derive some hatred for homosexuals or want to police them, and I don't with incest either. I like to think I'm a somewhat cerebral person and while I can't control how something makes me feel, I'm not egocentric enough to want to control those things because of that.

As for bringing morality into it, the genetic component at least provides definite arguments for finding procreation with family immoral. And depending on the type of incest (like parent + child for example) and the circumstances you at least question how reliable any given consent is when one party basically brought up and socialized and taught values to the other person in the relationship from birth on. If you somewhat isolate your kid I'm sure you could bring it up in a way where it would never consider not giving consent, for example. Basically 'breed' yourself a perfectly submissive partner. Even if you wait until they grow up so it isn't statuory rape, the 'damage' can easily be already done at that point, turning any given consent into a farce. That's because of the unique dynamics of family relationships and probably where my disgust stems from.

And to a smaller extent the same argument can be applied to siblings with an age difference of at least a few years, where the older can manipulate the younger one into giving consent later on or just into finding incest acceptable in general. Noone shapes how you see the world more than your closest family members so that generates a kind of conflict of interest when you turn a family relationship sexual. Any consent given in the dynamic of such a relationship where one party might look up to and learn from the other party throughout their whioe childhood and onwards is inherently questionable to me. The participants are inherently biased because of their existing family bonds. At least that's how I see it.

But at the end of the day moral reactions or judgments are not traditionally based on arguments but often on emotion or instinct. When you intellectually reflect on these moral instincts you can come up with moral philosophies or actual laws, but I believe the basis of morality itself is more instinctual than cerebral. As a species or society we just evolved past being slaves to that instinctual reaction and know that not every moral instinct should be turned into a law. Some are more reasonable than others or align more with other core values of our society. It also depends on how universal a moral instinct is. But the point is that morality and what the laws should allow and forbid aren't necessarily connected.

Satyr_icon said:


First of all, consent is just another moral principle decided by society upon arbitrary matters. If we take your rethoric of pliable morality at face value, the only reason consent matters is because YOU want it to matter, see? So why is it that your views of morality regarding consent are foremost to my or any views regarding incest? If morality should be questioned, why is it that you're applying your own sense of morality to the discussion? If morality is really subjective, why aren't the limits of consent as well, as consent is just another moral concept? Can you explain that?

And that's why your rethoric of fickle morals is so dangerous. It can easily be manipulated and lead to reasonings like the above. Your views of "you 100% have the right to do anything you want that does not affect others in a tangibly negative way" can be circunscribed by your own views on morality, because it's just that: another set of morals that can be questioned.

Satyr_icon said:
"Children aren't educated properly in sex therefore cannot truly consent"

Yikes, are you serious? So if a child is properly educated in sex they can truly consent? This is not the only reason children are off-limits, dude. Choose your words carefully.
Also, your rethoric of pliable morality was used to address exactly that. Look for the French Petition against the Age of Consent. It's easy to find.

Satyr_icon said:
The dead can't give consent

They can sign consent before they die. Does that make it acceptable to you?
If you make this claim based upon consent laws, I shall remember you that a lot of countries also have laws against incest.

Satyr_icon said:
"Animals can't give consent"

They can still willingly engage into sexual intercourse with humans. Just look at dolphins. If a human takes advantage of a dolphin trying to screw them, does that make zoophilia acceptable to you?
Again, consent can be subjective, if we take your own views at face value.

abhutrash said:
Jeez, didn't think I'd be debating morals on MAL today. I do appreciate the conversation guys.

abhutrash said:
Jeez, didn't think I'd be debating morals on MAL today. I do appreciate the conversation guys.

abhutrash said:
All rhetoric can be twisted negatively if you try hard enough, don't really see how my rhetoric is more damaging than your average Joe's

abhutrash said:
Overall, I feel like you are just trying to shut me down completely as a bad guy, since I hold a view you take moral offense to. In reality, I do want to get a dialogue going on the matter. Understanding why you find something to be 'inherently wrong' is an important aspect of understanding yourself, so I'd like to challenge such notions as much as I can.

tlato_but said:
I though this question more like "Family love in anime" as the model family (surprisingly Nanoha and the spin-off of Takagi-san), or guys who start taking care of little girls like in Aishiteruze Baby and Usagi Drop.

abhutrash said:
Fair points made here, especially with separating morality and law. I would clarify that my defense of incest is still a case-by-case deal. Yes, gross manipulation of people can exist in a incestuous relationship, and the likelihood of it in such a relationship is higher than with a traditional relationship, but discounting the entire concept of it just on those grounds seems reductive. We should be having open conversations about this and condemning such practices rather than generally condemning the whole matter as disgusting.