| The reason as why you can't see symbolism it because it is an expression of the symbol being shown in the series... Therefore, look for the symbol and apply what is it representing to the series, thus symbolism. The often used in SoL or some series are the seasons such as Spring, Winter, Autumn and Summer... Sometimes, author(s) will deliberately use the symbols it will become as a motif and a "key" to complex themes, in which someone have to apply certain human nature to it. Some can be seen in a form of Irony, either situational,verbal or dramatic. But, I don't know some series that do that, one I can really think of would be CG and Death. I think Re:Zero have that kind of Irony, but I don't know for sure. I might be wrong. |
GamerUnglued said: In general, one just needs to pay a bit of attention. If a certain motif or symbol appears many times, it probably means something. Even shows that don't really seem like they would have themes have things like this. They are usually meant to be harder to notice, thus rewarding the viewer for finding them. Some examples include repeated shots of the turtle in K-ON, the constant use of mirrors and reflections in Shinsekai Yori, or Clannad having many shots focused on the characters hands (and the last song being called Palm of a Tiny Hand). You really just have to make note of things that seem reoccurring. Symbolism/symbols are not hard to find if you ask me, it is just hard to incorporate it to something else. But well, symbolism is not the only focus of this. Director can also use the cinematography or something like that, in which he uses camera angles and such to portray something to the viewer in which I don't fucking care. The use of colors too can play. But well, I don't care to that too, I mean, all I care is the color of the pantsu and then I fap. ZachM said: I like to think of myself as someone who views anime analytically. Yet I have a really hard time uncovering what a show''s underlying themes are, or what some of its scenes are trying to convey to the viewer through symbolism. I can never "get" it the first time through, I always find myself looking up what someone else has found. Is there any way I can change up how I'm viewing things to better understand what they're trying to tell me? To answer it symbols are not just something that was shown once and then, boom it's a symbolism of something. It either have to be encorporate from something, or was shown multiple times. In that note, Anime in general follows certain Japanese symbolism or culture in which it is hard to just "ask Google" and came up with something so deep that even you wouldn't understand. Therefore, I would be surprise to see a character analysis rather than a review, in which analyzing a character's journey is somewhat harder than just pulling stuff from your pants. Mhhh... Let's make this easier to understand. As for me, I don't care about stuff like that but I only care how will I enjoy the series, or will I enjoy the series, I never really look beyond what is being shown in the screen to me. In short, why bother looking for it if you're not gonna write a character analysis? I mean dude, give me a literature and I fucking wouldn't read it unless my teacher say it.xD |
_Ako_Jan 5, 2017 2:06 PM
GamerUnglued said: _Ako_ said: Well I agree with that actually. I personally find most symbolism pretty easy to find, but it's a bit harder to see how the writer wants us to interpret it. The directing stuff you mentioned is also representative of themes, like the constant camera flips in Patema Inverted, or the prominent use of Red and Blue in Erased (the show still isn't great though). I'll disagree on the last part though, as I find this very important to my getting engrossed in the world.Symbolism/symbols are not hard to find if you ask me, it is just hard to incorporate it to something else. But well, symbolism is not the only focus of this. Director can also use the cinematography or something like that, in which he uses camera angles and such to portray something to the viewer in which I don't fucking care. The use of colors too can play. But well, I don't care to that too, I mean, all I care is the color of the pantsu and then I fap. Now you are using it wrong dude. It is easier to see symbols. Symbolism is not something you see...xD Again, themes, mhhh... I don't know, I never really ask myself about that when I watch anime. I just enjoy it. I love it. Why would I do that sort of thing? If you can incorporate that good for you, but I don't do that sort of thing. In overall, fuck stuff like that, I don't pay attention to it. Never have in my life, I guess it's the reason why I didn't quite like SEL and dropped Shinsekai no Yori...xD j0x said: those symbolism are usually about analogies or metaphors or whatever correct word it should be Ahhh... The reason why I don't like stuff involving 2deep4me.... |
_Ako_Jan 5, 2017 2:16 PM
| Read a damn book, son. That'll open up your worldview. |
GamerUnglued said: _Ako_ said: This would be the difference. I find enjoyment in becoming immersed in an interesting world with cool themes, and I find it satisfying to discover little details like symbols, thus SSY being an all time favorite.Now you are using it wrong dude. It is easier to see symbols. Symbolism is not something you see...xD Again, themes, mhhh... I don't know, I never really ask myself about that when I watch anime. I just enjoy it. I love it. Why would I do that sort of thing? If you can incorporate that good for you, but I don't do that sort of thing. In overall, fuck stuff like that, I don't pay attention to it. Never have in my life, I guess it's the reason why I didn't quite like SEL and dropped Shinsekai no Yori...xD Mhhhh... Interesting worlds full of cool themes... I sure don't want to be there. I'd rather be in the world full of pantsu and imoutos calling me "Onii-chan" everyday... Mhhh... Little details like in SSY... Well good for you dude,it would be interesting if you have some sort of a character analysis to the protagonist of that series. Status_Effect said: Read a damn book, son. That'll open up your worldview. Pretty much this. To be specific, literatures. But who have the time in the world to read 200 + pages of shit anyway? |
| Just let it come to you naturally. An anime must be felt before it can be fully understood. End of Evangelion, for example. Oh and I might as well summon @TheBrainintheJar for him to proudly declare that "all fiction is symbolism." |
AltoRoarkJan 5, 2017 6:24 PM
| You're watching garbage shows then... Although yeah, most anime doesn't |
| That's a whole science in itself, read som psychology, Jung is good to understand symbolism. @AltoRoark is right you feel it before you put it into words as the different narratives (meanings) operate on different levels of abstraction. You can completely change the tone of an anime by switching up the pacing/colour palette/angles or what have you it's all part of the whole and when they oscillate together we get the sense that a work is "deep". It's like how in litterature there is the writing and then there's the structure of the writing etc. |
BoiiiiiiiiiiJan 5, 2017 2:50 PM
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Status_Effect said: this is why the book symbolises knowledge :^)Read a damn book, son. That'll open up your worldview. |
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| Just make up some stuff and pretend that it's symbolism, nobody will ever know! |
The person who said that the pen is mightier than the sword has clearly never heard of automatic weapons.  |
| If you're watching anime for Symbolism and not for Male Gaze, Female Gaze, Foe Yay, or Badass Adorable, then you're doing it wrong. |
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| symbolism is an excuse for garbage show like utena and yuri kuma arashi |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
AltoRoark said: Just let it come to you naturally. An anime must be felt before it can be fully understood. End of Evangelion, for example. Oh and I might as well summon @TheBrainintheJar for him to proudly declare that "all fiction is symbolism." I heard the wind calling my name But yes, fiction is symbolic by nature since it is not the thing it portrays. The map is not the territory. The picture of a man is not the man. Symbolism doesn't just mean 'this chair represents the struggle of Kierkorad". It's basic semiotics, acknowledging that we see things that aren't actually there. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
IpreferEcchi said: Not everyone just watches anime to get their dick hard. There's porn for that already.If you're watching anime for Symbolism and not for Male Gaze, Female Gaze, Foe Yay, or Badass Adorable, then you're doing it wrong. |
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| Symbolism are only there for pretentious overthinkers to jizz and act like the show they like is mature and deep when it is actually just a piece of shit. |
| The problem with eyes is that they cannot see What must be seen. The meaning in the depths Swallows us whole, And fans fire away In despondent glee. It matters not what we see: They're all symbols, Imaginary! |
| Even in bad shows (anime included), there is symbolism. For example one can say that the crossing of the swords (Lambent Light and the Elucidador) symbolises the union between Kirito and Asuna as lovers, and as warriors. Perhaps you're just not looking hard enough? |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
| Naturally, the more abstract the symbols are, the harder to interpret. But it's not only depends on their abstraction level, how we interprete symbols are based on our experiences. Sometimes we can interpret an abstract one easier than the more concret one, because we have an experiences that somehow connected to that abstract one but we don't have for the concret one. A story is projection of story teller views of world. Same with symbolism, by "knowing" the author of the story (which contains symbolism), may increasing the chance to understand it symbolism. |
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
| Can't believe no one has said this. OP, anime is 2deep4u. |
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| The real question would probably be "Are the symbolism we uncover intended from the creator's side or are people just seeing things that weren't even there in the first place?" |
 |
DrGeroCreation said: Girls don't have dicks. The only trope I listed pertaining to getting one's dick hard is Male Gaze. Unless you have a fetish for fights like I do. Badass Adorable will get you hard in that case. You need to Google the tropes.IpreferEcchi said: Not everyone just watches anime to get their dick hard. There's porn for that already.If you're watching anime for Symbolism and not for Male Gaze, Female Gaze, Foe Yay, or Badass Adorable, then you're doing it wrong. |
|
Wow_Such_Doge said: Just make up some stuff and pretend that it's symbolism, nobody will ever know! This! It seems to be working perfectly for the FLCL fans. |
 |
| As much as I love symbolism, I must admit, I find it frustrating that time to time I'll miss out on it. The best way to be able to identify symbolism is to study and research various fields that are often symbolized. Psychology and Sexuality being two of the most prominent examples, but color and music theory are also used from time to time. Afterwards, let your mind pick up on reoccurring patterns and instances, as these are often reoccurring symbols. Take note of shot composition, which will use placement of objects to 'remind you of something' that might not seem related on the surface. That said, identifying symbolism is no walk in the park. It is easy to think something represents something when it has no meaning whatsoever beyond what you see. It's not perfect art/subject to tackle. |
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
OppaiSugoi said: Can't believe no one has said this. OP, anime is 2deep4u. Some know a dead meme when they see one. |
ZachM said: Yeah, see there's a difference between what you'd "like" to think of yourself as and what's reality. If you're not "getting" symbolism, then I don't think you're analytical. Symbolism is often touted as some complex thing, but I think, to the contrary, it's often very easily discerned and understood, especially in anime where things are much more blatant and telegraphed to the audience.I like to think of myself as someone who views anime analytically. Anyway, the solution to your problem is to just keep reading what other people are "getting" and learn how they came to that conclusion. People don't just "understand" things naturally. It takes time and effort to come to "deeper" conclusions about the stories that they watch, but it also sometimes requires pondering what other people have extracted from an anime. Don't listen to people here if they start telling you that you should just "come to your own conclusions." Perspective is important and fitting two and two together can often be difficult, and I don't think it's a sin to admit that you need other people's analysis to realize what a show has to offer. What's problematic is if you never learn from people's analysis and the process through which they drew conclusions. |
NoobAsian said: Even in bad shows (anime included), there is symbolism. For example one can say that the crossing of the swords (Lambent Light and the Elucidador) symbolises the union between Kirito and Asuna as lovers, and as warriors. Perhaps you're just not looking hard enough? Understanding SAO doesn't need symbolism. You just need to really be edgy as fuck, or "mindlessly" enjoy the series as I do. Either way, fucking shit will happen. |
Aquamirror said: Wow_Such_Doge said: Just make up some stuff and pretend that it's symbolism, nobody will ever know! This! It seems to be working perfectly for the FLCL fans. Here here! Someone else has seen the light! |
| "I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: Naturally, the more abstract the symbols are, the harder to interpret. But it's not only depends on their abstraction level, how we interprete symbols are based on our experiences. Sometimes we can interpret an abstract one easier than the more concret one, because we have an experiences that somehow connected to that abstract one but we don't have for the concret one. A story is projection of story teller views of world. Same with symbolism, by "knowing" the author of the story (which contains symbolism), may increasing the chance to understand it symbolism. The problem with too abstract symbols is that they can mean anything, eventually meaning nothing. Stories that are guilty of that tend to be generic, rather than experimental. More challenging works - whether crap like Texhnolyze or genius pieces like Paranoia Agent have symbols that clearly point somewhere. The most abstract symbol is the good-natured protagonist. So he's good, but what does goodness mean? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
ZachM said: Is there any way I can change up how I'm viewing things to better understand what they're trying to tell me? 1) Understand that some works do not try to tell you anything. They're pure form without much function. 2) Learn more about Japan and anime. That will let you understand them better. |
I was about to formulate my reply, but wanted to quickly say that was nice and thorough assessment of symbolism used in general for any medium. Especially liked how you made the distinction between the more 'lazy' and/or less worthwhile form of symbolism versus the more layered symbolism that adds significance for the character(s) and/or story. As for the topic at hand, I don't know, if you took any Literature classes in school, I'm sure you had assignments where you had to analyze the themes/symbolism/tone etc of a given story. The only way to 'see' symbolism is to expose yourself more to thematically crafted works, as you can't go wrong with the classics often found among the sea of novels hailed as such. But I believe you're on the right track, as you stated you've looked up explanations to aid your understanding. Teachers don't become geniuses overnight, as they themselves had to study well-known works and read others' analyses in order to fine tune it to their overall understanding. In truth, I don't think one can really grasp whatever an author is trying to convey without knowing the context. Context can mean knowing the background history of said author, or familiarize yourself with an event/time-period that the story takes place in. If only take a story at face-value, then you only get so much out of it, but not really the full picture. There's little things such as just becoming familiar with the recurring symbols often used in stories where the meaning doesn't really differ from story to story, author to author. In other words, some symbols are more universal than others. If a rose is featured predominately, just ask yourself and assess the features of a rose. Roses are often considered beautiful, it's a flower so therefore it tends wither at some point, it has thorns that can pierce your skin, etc. Then try to see how such symbol is applicable to the characters and/or story. Maybe there's a beautiful person that manipulates someone else and over time, the manipulative person's actions tend to harm the victim. In which case, the story is just illustrating how things often perceived as 'good' or 'pleasant' can be deceiving. Or let's say you see a fresh rose at the start of a story, and it just so happens a character is having great success with whatever. But as time goes by, the rose withers and decays, just as said character's victories are diminishing. "Nothing stays gold forever." Those are really simple examples, but like I said, you just need to expose yourself to more theme driven stories, know the context of it, and just breakdown the symbolism to the best of your ability. If nothing else, there's no shame in reading an analysis written by someone else, as you're just trying to enhance your understanding and by doing so, it should theoretically enhance your enjoyment; at least personally, theme heavy stories are like jigsaw puzzles, so it tends to be fulfilling when the pieces finally connect to a more well-rounded understanding that I couldn't see prior. |
 Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
| Well, if you don't have some intuitive feeling about a lot of the more obvious symbolism then I'm not sure I know how to help you. A ticking clock symbolises the passing of time, a cemetery symbolises death etc... As long as it doesn't get too specifically religious or historical or whatever requires a lot of knowledge about a specific topic, most of the symbolisms should be self-explanatory. I personally don't pay too much attention to symbolism, but a lot of the times it's so obvious and almost forced that I find it hard to miss. Maybe you're just having a hard time with abstract thinking in general. I've always been very analytical, always read a lot since I was like 4 and I've been studying philosophy for a decent time so abstract thinking just comes naturally to me but when you ask me how to 'learn' it I'm not actually sure. Soaking up the analysis of other people and trying to see what they see in a work is definitely a good starting point tho. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
_Ako_ said: NoobAsian said: Even in bad shows (anime included), there is symbolism. For example one can say that the crossing of the swords (Lambent Light and the Elucidador) symbolises the union between Kirito and Asuna as lovers, and as warriors. Perhaps you're just not looking hard enough? Understanding SAO doesn't need symbolism. You just need to really be edgy as fuck, or "mindlessly" enjoy the series as I do. Either way, fucking shit will happen. Not really the point I'm trying to make, but okay. |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
flannan said: ZachM said: Is there any way I can change up how I'm viewing things to better understand what they're trying to tell me? 1) Understand that some works do not try to tell you anything. They're pure form without much function. 2) Learn more about Japan and anime. That will let you understand them better. How can they be pure form without function? Why do humans invent things without function? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: flannan said: 1) Understand that some works do not try to tell you anything. They're pure form without much function. 2) Learn more about Japan and anime. That will let you understand them better. How can they be pure form without function? Why do humans invent things without function? Some authors are wise old men who seek to impart the lessons they've learned to further generations by the way of well-told stories. Hayao Miyazaki is like that. This can seem preachy when it's too obvious, but the viewer never has to think too hard "what was the moral of the story?". And the critic never has to scratch his/her head "is THIS the moral of the story?!". Because the author knows well what is the moral of the story. Other authors let their views leak out into their works. For a blatant example, see Kirito's views on virtual reality ethics. If you ask me, it's a good thing, because it is what makes their works original and brings new things into the art. But many authors just want to make a good work in a given genre or something like that. They neither have strong views on anything except art, nor care much about imparting them to other people. I'm sure you've seen some people like that on the forums, but some such people actually have the talent and will to actually make some anime/manga/novels of their own. The best of them make really good works in a given genre, they are funny/gripping/whatever. But there is no moral in their stories, beyond whatever is deeply ingrained in the genre (like hard work in shounen battle anime). In fact, they're likely to subvert whatever moral is deeply ingrained in the genre too. Because they do not care of such things. |
| @TheBrainintheJar I do agree that abstract symbols can be interpreted in many ways. But I think the key is try to connect the symbols with the context in the show. The meaning of a symbol may have connection with the situation that the show has shown when the symbols occur or maybe connected to the show as a whole. And another key is realized symbols in the show as many as possible and try to see how they are connected each other. Interpreting every symbols in the show separately may lead to misinterpretation. But another problem is the show may has more than one massage that it tries to convey through symbolism. So, there's still a chance to misinterpretation. To be sure with our interpretion though, we can look at the author. Did the authour revealed his shows meaning?, What type of works the author tend to made?, What type of situation the author facing when he created the show?, What about his past experiences? And so on. Anime is a form of art. It's a medium where the author of anime expresses his idea and himself. By the way, what do you mean by generic rather than experimental? And, I don't understand the last part. Do you intended showing abstract symbol can mean nothing? |
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar I do agree that abstract symbols can be interpreted in many ways. But I think the key is try to connect the symbols with the context in the show. The meaning of a symbol may have connection with the situation that the show has shown when the symbols occur or maybe connected to the show as a whole. And another key is realized symbols in the show as many as possible and try to see how they are connected each other. Interpreting every symbols in the show separately may lead to misinterpretation. But another problem is the show may has more than one massage that it tries to convey through symbolism. So, there's still a chance to misinterpretation. To be sure with our interpretion though, we can look at the author. Did the authour revealed his shows meaning?, What type of works the author tend to made?, What type of situation the author facing when he created the show?, What about his past experiences? And so on. Anime is a form of art. It's a medium where the author of anime expresses his idea and himself. By the way, what do you mean by generic rather than experimental? And, I don't understand the last part. Do you intended showing abstract symbol can mean nothing? I do agree that context is necessary to understand symbols. After all, all these symbols - physical objects, characters, scenes - exist together inside the fictional work. I also agree that further research of an author's work helps us understand his symbols. We can find running themes. What I meant was, that generic symbols lead easily to 'it can mean anything', since they're empty. They don't contain a sentiment or an emotion. They're almost always a tool without context. The good-natured hero is such a symbol, since whatever he stands for is right. Overly-abstract works also suffer from this, but I don't have much experience with them. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| It's a very poor analysis if you can't spot something as simple as symbolism. Anime doesn't tend to have very hard to spot symbolism. |
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flannan said: TheBrainintheJar said: How can they be pure form without function? Why do humans invent things without function? Some authors are wise old men who seek to impart the lessons they've learned to further generations by the way of well-told stories. Hayao Miyazaki is like that. This can seem preachy when it's too obvious, but the viewer never has to think too hard "what was the moral of the story?". And the critic never has to scratch his/her head "is THIS the moral of the story?!". Because the author knows well what is the moral of the story. Other authors let their views leak out into their works. For a blatant example, see Kirito's views on virtual reality ethics. If you ask me, it's a good thing, because it is what makes their works original and brings new things into the art. But many authors just want to make a good work in a given genre or something like that. They neither have strong views on anything except art, nor care much about imparting them to other people. I'm sure you've seen some people like that on the forums, but some such people actually have the talent and will to actually make some anime/manga/novels of their own. The best of them make really good works in a given genre, they are funny/gripping/whatever. But there is no moral in their stories, beyond whatever is deeply ingrained in the genre (like hard work in shounen battle anime). In fact, they're likely to subvert whatever moral is deeply ingrained in the genre too. Because they do not care of such things. Many stories don't have morals. I'd say they shouldn't have. They're expressions of subjective experience. An author who spills his philosophy in a fictional work should write philosophy, not fiction. If I wanted to read about ethics in virtual reality, I got the library of Tel-Aviv University at my service. I'm here to experience fiction. Everyone has views and express the, consciously or subconsciously. If an author keeps writing women with focus on their breasts, I'll assume they focus on that part of women in general, more heavily. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| How about instead of looking things up as your first go to you rewatch it and perhaps even try to document everything you think into word; write it down, use MS Word, notepad, etc. Take it one step at a time and you'll be able to see between the lines. |
| @TheBrainintheJar Yes, I do agree that such symbols lead easily to "it can mean anything". That exactly what I feel for some symbols in the abstract shows I have watched. I agree if you said that they are like that because lack of context. But, saying they are like that because they are empty, do not contain a sentiment or emotion is a bit judgemental if you asked me (well, you are a critic). I am not saying it's bad, but it most likely you will not enjoy many abstract art/anime/symbols. By the way, while I agree that the good-nature protagonist is a symbol, I disagree with you that it's the most abstract symbol in fiction. I can't say anything about it meaning though, because it will be a generalization of all of fictions. We should talk about it case by case. But, it can be as simple as symbolizes the author idea of a protagonist. |
Kurniawan_KtrJan 7, 2017 10:28 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
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