Tyrel said: Thread Cleaned Last time I will clean this before I start sending bans/Locking this thread. OT: I still dislike tsunderes, this pretty much sums up my feelings: |
| Tsunderes annoy me sometimes as well but can also be very cute. In any case yandere>tsundere. |
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Zefyris said: That "deconstruction of a tsundere" just point out that TV tropes was embarrassed in the case of Taiga, since after checking they could not really found enough to prove her a tsundere. But, heh, I know, we'll say she's a "deconstruction of it" so that no one will say anything. That sounds pretty smart and cool too". Do you know what deconstruction means? Because I'm not sure you actually do :S |
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| The first ending song to Toradora is the ESSENCE of being a tsundere and Taiga herself sings it "If you say it's white, I'll say it's black" "A little imp who can't be honest with herself" "If you say you love me, I'll say I HATE you" "Even though I'm happy, what the heck am I saying?" What more proof is there? Neesi said: Tsunderes annoy me sometimes as well but can also be very cute. In any case yandere>tsundere. Ew, no. I hate yandere. CO-DEPENDENT STALKING LOSERS. A tsundere will still be able to go on with life if they don't see their crush for more than two hours. |
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| >Using a song written by some random composer instead of canon material from the original writter as "proof". |
Dark_Chaos said: Zefyris said: That "deconstruction of a tsundere" just point out that TV tropes was embarrassed in the case of Taiga, since after checking they could not really found enough to prove her a tsundere. But, heh, I know, we'll say she's a "deconstruction of it" so that no one will say anything. That sounds pretty smart and cool too". Do you know what deconstruction means? Because I'm not sure you actually do :S Please define "deconstruction of a tsundere", because yes, for me, that doesn't mean anything substantial. And after that, please points out why Taiga would be such "deconstruction of a tsundere" "If you say you love me, I'll say I HATE you" Err ... what? That's not her personality at all... |
ZefyrisJun 12, 2015 3:42 PM
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Zefyris said: Dark_Chaos said: Do you know what deconstruction means? Because I'm not sure you actually do :S Please define "deconstruction of a tsundere", because yes, for me, that doesn't mean anything substantial. And after that, please points out why Taiga would be such "deconstruction of a tsundere" You never explained why you think Taiga isn't a deconstruction of a Tsundere, you just said she isn't, which is why I asked you if you knew what the word means, because it appears like you have no idea. Kinda odd to just make such a bold statement and not say why, is it not? |
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SuperRed said: >Using a song written by some random composer instead of canon material from the original writter as "proof". You don't know that. Some authors DO write theme songs to their respected anime. Naoko Takeuchi did it. |
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Chiibi said: I'd rather them not be able to live without me, being able to disregard the fact they ever even liked me after 2 hours does not please me.The first ending song to Toradora is the ESSENCE of being a tsundere and Taiga herself sings it "If you say it's white, I'll say it's black" "A little imp who can't be honest with herself" "If you say you love me, I'll say I HATE you" "Even though I'm happy, what the heck am I saying?" What more proof is there? Neesi said: Tsunderes annoy me sometimes as well but can also be very cute. In any case yandere>tsundere. Ew, no. I hate yandere. CO-DEPENDENT STALKING LOSERS. A tsundere will still be able to go on with life if they don't see their crush for more than two hours. |
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Dark_Chaos said: Zefyris said: Please define "deconstruction of a tsundere", because yes, for me, that doesn't mean anything substantial. And after that, please points out why Taiga would be such "deconstruction of a tsundere" You never explained why you think Taiga isn't a deconstruction of a Tsundere, you just said she isn't, which is why I asked you if you knew what the word means, because it appears like you have no idea. Kinda odd to just make such a bold statement and not say why, is it not? I don't think you read my post before quoting it. I said that to me it has no meaning, and asked you to define it. I already said earlier several reasons for Taiga not being a tsundere. If you say that "deconstruction of a tsundere" has a proper meaning, then please define that meaning. As long as you don't, I will continue to say it has no meaning, since no one is defining it. And I'm not asking for a explanation of the word "deconstruction", but of a "deconstruction of a tsundere" with examples to boot in Taiga's case showing that she's one. I don't think I'm asking something complicated by asking peoples to prove me that she's either a "tsundere" or a "deconstruction of a tsundere". Yet, several pages later, still nothing in answer. |
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Zefyris said: I said that to me it has no meaning You mean you just don't understand the meaning. Oh dear, that is unfortunate. You so boldly claimed that she isn't a deconstruction, yet you cannot explain why. I'll just leave this here to educate you. Read and you shall learn, my friend :) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Deconstruction Also, Taiga is a Tsundere. Here is the official definition. Isn't learning fun? :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere |
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Mezzo80 said: Dark_Chaos said: You mean you just don't understand the meaning. Oh dear, that is unfortunate. You so boldly claimed that she isn't a deconstruction, yet you cannot explain why. I'll just leave this here to educate you. Read and you shall learn, my friend :) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Deconstruction Also, Taiga is a Tsundere. Here is the official definition. Isn't learning fun? :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere You're a complete idiot; literally 0 intelligence. Please finish 7th grade english before posting again, and devote as much time into comprehension as possible, because it's clear you're struggling badly. Honestly, how hard can it be to understand something so simple: Zefyris said: And I'm not asking for a explanation of the word "deconstruction" Resorting to ad hominem makes you an even more complete idiot. |
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| Please now you two... @Mezzo80, thanks for your support, but please don't insult others. You'll get yourself banned, and you'll get the thread closed, especially since Tyrel has already warned that this thread is borderline being locked after being cleaned too many times. Which means that any conversation going on in it would be cut in the middle, again.... If your wish was to have the conversation progress, then your intervention may actually lead the contrary, a complete cut of it. In japanese, I suppose you could say 元も子もない, IE, having lost the interest and the principal here. No, there was no reasons for me to suddenly talk about Japanese, just added it on a whim so don't mind it x). @Tenshi_Shura, please do not answer insult by insulting as well, same reasons as above. @Dark_Chaos, ignoring your tone, I went and read the TV tropes definition of deconstruction. Like I said and like Mezzo80 was pointing out although with a poor chocie of words, I wasn't asking for the definition of a deconstruction. Still, it didn't occur to me that TV tropes itself had their own page fo a definition, which obviously is more appropriate here since they're defining it as they're using it rather than using the general definition of the deconstruction word. That makes it easier to apply to their tropes than the usual definition, so thanks for the link. From what I see however, They're talking about "deconstruction of a tsundere" rather than just a "tsundere" in taiga case because the author "took the time to create a situation plausible in real life that would create a tsundere behavior" . To this, I'll asume until further notice that they are talking about Taiga's past and Taiga's close family circumstances, which indeed lead to her distrusting everyone and being violent towards others. However, if that what's they mean, this means that they're not addressing with the "deconstruction" part anything about Taiga really being a tsundere, but addressing instead "the causes in her life who leaded her to have that personality". Which means that IF taiga isn't a tsundere, she cannot be a deconstruction of a tsundere either, since the "causes" are invalidated by not having the proper said consequences (I hope you're following me on this one). That"s because the deconstruction of a specific Trope don't change the requirement to be that specific Trope, it's adding specific SUPPLEMENTARY requirement to go from that simple tropes toward a deconstruction of it, WHILE keeping the previous requirement of the tropes. In other words, to prove that Taiga is a deconstruction of a Tsundere, you would need to first prove that she's a Tsundere, and then by pointing out her circumstances, poiting out that she's more precisely a deconstruction of it. IF Taiga was a tsundere, with tv tropes' definition of "deconstruction of a trope" THEN I would indeed agree that she's a deconstruction of one (BTW, with that definition, this makes Victorique pretty much a deconstruction of a Tsundere too... Which isn't a bad thing obviously). The problem is, the IF. You still haven't said a word about why Taiga should be a tsundere. Taiga is a well done character, and indeed she has her behaviour coming from her personal circumstances rather than just coming from nowhere. In other words, her personality and behaviour are linked pretty well with her background and past. YES. On that I agree. However, that behaviour isn't a tsundere personality. On that, I still see no one in this thread trying even a bit seriously to prove it at all. Also, your "official page" is the english page of wikipedia, made by users like you and me. Who can be wrong, and are quite often wrong when it comes to foreign words definition btw, like you, and me. If you look at the japanese version btw, since lookign directly in the original language for a wikipedia page is often a better idea to avoid errors (doesn't mean there won't be some, but this reduce the risks) you won't see Taiga being mentioned. At all. So, while it seems like you had your "moment" of feeling superior in your last post, Dark_Chaos, it seems like you're still a bit embarrassed when it comes to prove that Taiga is a tsundere. |
ZefyrisJun 13, 2015 6:51 AM
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Zefyris said: In other words, to prove that Taiga is a deconstruction of a Tsundere, you would need to first prove that she's a Tsundere The official wikipedia page proves she is. Zefyris said: Also, your "official page" is the english page of wikipedia, made by users like you and me. Who can be wrong, and are quite often wrong when it comes to foreign words definition btw, like you, and me. If a user like you or me tries to edit Wikipedia and succeeds, it will be quickly rectified. Wikipedia pages are constantly checked for errors by multiple people including those from other countries, so it isn't likely that they'd be wrong, but if you think it contains some errors, why not try to correct it? Surely if you're actually correct, they'll accept the changes, right? :) |
Dark_ChaosJun 13, 2015 7:34 AM
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| As someone said here, Tsunderes are most likely a cliché nowadays, I just don't like to root for someone that is being annoying the whole anime, I just can't. Why would you like someone that is always being mad at you and things like that. Everytime I watch an anime and there is a girl with that personality , I instantly root for some other girl. But yeah, there are many types of Tsuderes, for example, I really like Senjougahara from Monogatari Series, and she's a tsundere, but it's a different one, she's not annoying, and doesn't keep his feelings / try to hide his feelings by beating up on the MC. It's a personal opinion, I can understand why some people like this type of Characters and it's fine, but for me, nope... |
Dark_Chaos said: Zefyris said: In other words, to prove that Taiga is a deconstruction of a Tsundere, you would need to first prove that she's a Tsundere The official wikipedia page proves she is. Zefyris said: Also, your "official page" is the english page of wikipedia, made by users like you and me. Who can be wrong, and are quite often wrong when it comes to foreign words definition btw, like you, and me. If a user like you or me tries to edit Wikipedia and succeeds, it will be quickly rectified. Wikipedia pages are constantly checked for errors by multiple people including those from other countries, so it isn't likely that they'd be wrong, but if you think it contains some errors, why not try to correct it? Surely if you're actually correct, they'll accept the changes, right? :) That's not an "official" page. That's a wikipedia page. Stops using wikipedia as PROOF. How about you think by YOURSELF. Wikipedia is made by people like you and me. I have pointed out a lots of fault in wikipedia before. Especialy english ones about japanese vocabulary, it's full of mistakes because uninformed peoples can edit it. Furthermore, the japanese page DOESN'T mention Taiga as a tsundere. Are you saying that a poor english pages of wiikipedia is the utmost authority there is around? Seriously, I'm astounded that someone could think of Wikipedia as a definite proof. I suggest you stop thinking that way, or you're going to have problems sooner or later, because informations in specific fields are full of mistakes. What I'm asking you to say isn't to link another website when someone agrees with you. I'm asking you to bring proof in that title showing that Taiga is a tsundere. If You cannot do that, then you're proving to be unable to defend your own opinion, and as such, this opinion has absolutely no value. I am clear enough now? I've asked it for several pages now and no one seems able to do anything about it. As a matter of fact, until further notice, Taiga is therefore NOT a tsundere. |
ZefyrisJun 13, 2015 9:18 AM
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Zefyris said: Wikipedia is made by people like you and me. I have pointed out a lots of fault in wikipedia before. Especialy english ones about japanese vocabulary, it's full of mistakes because uninformed peoples can edit it. Many people from various countries edit Wikipedia, and any mistakes are quickly rectified, so these mistakes are not likely to stay, but if you're so insistent that they are actually there, why don't you point out these mistakes, like I've been asking you to do, since your so knowledgeable? While you're at it, perhaps provide an official source with the defintion of a Tsundere, and not your misconceived notion of what a Tsundere is? Zefyris said: I'm asking you to bring proof in that title showing that Taiga is a tsundere. Tsundere (ツンデレ ?, pronounced [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. That is Taiga through and through. She is initially cold towards another person (Ryuji), but gradually warms up to him over time. That is straight from the official source which you claim has faults, yet have not pointed out and proved said faults. Taiga is a tsundere. |
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Tenshi_Shura said: Resorting to ad hominem makes you an even more complete idiot. You don't know what ad hominem is. |
SightScreen said: Tenshi_Shura said: Resorting to ad hominem makes you an even more complete idiot. You don't know what ad hominem is. Nah, I know what is. It was practically my fault for not reading the whole page and based my statements on assumptions. But whatever. |
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Mezzo80 said: Tenshi_Shura said: Resorting to ad hominem makes you an even more complete idiot. kek, you're a massive retard. Ad hominem only applies to people engaged in an argument, which I wasn't. MAL english standards once again proving to be 6th grader level. Kids like you and Dark_Chaos shouldn't be allowed on the internet. Stop with the insults you'll get my thread locked. |
Dark_Chaos said: Zefyris said: Wikipedia is made by people like you and me. I have pointed out a lots of fault in wikipedia before. Especialy english ones about japanese vocabulary, it's full of mistakes because uninformed peoples can edit it. Many people from various countries edit Wikipedia, and any mistakes are quickly rectified, so these mistakes are not likely to stay, but if you're so insistent that they are actually there, why don't you point out these mistakes, like I've been asking you to do, since your so knowledgeable? While you're at it, perhaps provide an official source with the defintion of a Tsundere, and not your misconceived notion of what a Tsundere is? Zefyris said: I'm asking you to bring proof in that title showing that Taiga is a tsundere. Tsundere (ツンデレ ?, pronounced [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. That is Taiga through and through. She is initially cold towards another person (Ryuji), but gradually warms up to him over time. That is straight from the official source which you claim has faults, yet have not pointed out and proved said faults. Taiga is a tsundere. Basically this. Also, tsundere don't HAVE to be tsun towards the one they love, Zefyris. One of my favorite manga, Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne has one. She's the main character's best friend and she's completely tsundere towards her but she's very dere-dere with the boy she has (a really shallow) crush on. She's also tsundere towards another boy she kicks around...........and ends up marrying him after he confesses to her. lol |
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Dark_Chaos said: Zefyris said: Wikipedia is made by people like you and me. I have pointed out a lots of fault in wikipedia before. Especialy english ones about japanese vocabulary, it's full of mistakes because uninformed peoples can edit it. Many people from various countries edit Wikipedia, and any mistakes are quickly rectified, so these mistakes are not likely to stay, but if you're so insistent that they are actually there, why don't you point out these mistakes, like I've been asking you to do, since your so knowledgeable? While you're at it, perhaps provide an official source with the defintion of a Tsundere, and not your misconceived notion of what a Tsundere is? Zefyris said: I'm asking you to bring proof in that title showing that Taiga is a tsundere. Tsundere (ツンデレ ?, pronounced [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. That is Taiga through and through. She is initially cold towards another person (Ryuji), but gradually warms up to him over time. That is straight from the official source which you claim has faults, yet have not pointed out and proved said faults. Taiga is a tsundere. That's no valid because she didn't like Ryuuji at that time, again and again. Tsundere is a personality type, not a succession of event. If I kick someone and 3 months later fall in love, doesn't me a tsundere. Basically this. Also, tsundere don't HAVE to be tsun towards the one they love, Zefyris. That's the whole point of a tsundere, or else that whole planet IS tsundere ... Almost everyone is cold of violent toward at least part of peoples they don't know or don't like. If this isn't toward a love target, this doesn't lead to that person fitting tsundere criteria. You want wikipedia? Here it is, the japanese page for tsundere 好意を持った人物に対し、デレッとした態度を取らないように自らを律し、ツンとした態度で天邪鬼として接する the important for what I said is the "好意を持った人物に対し". Toward a person for who she has feelings" So. If Wikipedia always says the truth like yo uwant to believe. That two wikipedia pages don't say the same thing. Is there 2 truths? oh? What is happening? I told you already. There's no need to search for complicated definitions of Tsundere. This is a behaviour toward a love target. The discussion isn't about quoting wikipedia or tv tropes about what is a tsundere. It's about, while using commonly accepted definition, finiding in Taiga's behaviour, proofs that she is tsundere. Which you still haven't done. Trying over the internet to find somewhere a definition of Tsundere that would make the whole world a tsundere and say to me "look, it fits" (well, sure, but that definition makes myself a tsundere, too) isn't going to convince me. That's not what I'm asking. |
ZefyrisJun 13, 2015 2:55 PM
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Zefyris said: Dark_Chaos said: Many people from various countries edit Wikipedia, and any mistakes are quickly rectified, so these mistakes are not likely to stay, but if you're so insistent that they are actually there, why don't you point out these mistakes, like I've been asking you to do, since your so knowledgeable? While you're at it, perhaps provide an official source with the defintion of a Tsundere, and not your misconceived notion of what a Tsundere is? Tsundere (ツンデレ ?, pronounced [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. That is Taiga through and through. She is initially cold towards another person (Ryuji), but gradually warms up to him over time. That is straight from the official source which you claim has faults, yet have not pointed out and proved said faults. Taiga is a tsundere. That's no valid because she didn't like Ryuuji at that time, again and again. Tsundere is a personality type, not a succession of event. If I kick someone and 3 months later fall in love, doesn't me a tsundere. Basically this. Also, tsundere don't HAVE to be tsun towards the one they love, Zefyris. That's the whole point of a tsundere, or else that whole planet IS tsundere ... Almost everyone is cold of violent toward at least part of peoples they don't know or don't like. If this isn't toward a love target, this doesn't lead to that person fitting tsundere criteria. You want wikipedia? Here it is, the japanese page for tsundere 好意を持った人物に対し、デレッとした態度を取らないように自らを律し、ツンとした態度で天邪鬼として接する the important for what I said is the "好意を持った人物に対し". Toward a person for who she has feelings" So. If Wikipedia always says the truth like yo uwant to believe. That two wikipedia pages don't say the same thing. Is there 2 truths? oh? What is happening? I told you already. There's no need to search for complicated definitions of Tsundere. This is a behaviour toward a love target. The discussion isn't about quoting wikipedia or tv tropes about what is a tsundere. It's about, while using commonly accepted definition, finiding in Taiga's behaviour, proofs that she is tsundere. Which you still haven't done. Trying over the internet to find somewhere a definition of Tsundere that would make the whole world a tsundere and say to me "look, it fits" (well, sure, but that definition makes myself a tsundere, too) isn't going to convince me. That's not what I'm asking. According to Google Translate, 好意を持った人物に対し means "To the person who has a favor", which doesn't even make sense. As we can clearly see, Japanese doesn't translate well into English, so your source is unreliable. Until you can provide a reliable source, Taiga is a Tsundere, as stated by an official source. |
Dark_ChaosJun 13, 2015 4:04 PM
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| Don't really care but I don't like it when a show is judged solely based on that character's archetype. |
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Dark_Chaos said: As we can clearly see, Japanese doesn't translate well into English, so your source is unreliable. Until you can provide a reliable source, Taiga is a Tsundere, as stated by an official source. I hope you're not American, because you're just going to continue to reinforce the stereotype that Americans are ignorant, xenophobic people who can't use logic. Unless you're some advanced troll or this was meant to be sarcastic. |
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| who da fuck cares if taiga is a tsundere or not. wtf? you guys just debating for a stupid reason or wut? |
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| Didn't even read the replies to this post, but damn. That's exactly what I was talking about. "an unlikable character is a bad one!" "Toradora is bad because one character is unlikable!" |
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| tsundere can be comedy gold when done right Yuk said: i love them especially taiga :c i don't think shes even tsundere more like the deconstruction of it |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
| I like tsunderes but I don't like it when they act so in denial when it comes to their love. I mean, I love their sass, and I think it's hilarious when they hit the mc. But... Plz do not be in denial. It's annoying :/ Oh yeah now I understand. I basically dislike loli tsunderes like Taiga and Louise but I love tsunderes like Asuka and Chitoge for example. |
ClefairiessJul 7, 2015 10:25 AM
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Dark_Chaos said: According to Google Translate, 好意を持った人物に対し means "To the person who has a favor", which doesn't even make sense. As we can clearly see, Japanese doesn't translate well into English, so your source is unreliable. Until you can provide a reliable source, Taiga is a Tsundere, as stated by an official source. So... " I don't have the necessary proficiency to read the proof you provided, which means the proof isn't valid, please provide a proof that I'm able to read" That was a nice joke. No, seriously. Way to use your own lack of proficiency to reject what doesn't go your way... If we go that way, any mathematical demonstration in physics isn't a proof either for any person who don't have the mathematics background necessary to understand the equations, right. So the sun rotates around the earth, right! kek~ Just like a mathematical demonstration is what fits the most physics theory, what fits the most for a japanese word is a definition in japanese. Wow, who would have thought about that. Always thought americans knew more about the japanese language than the Japaneses. You learn new stuff every days~ |
ZefyrisJul 7, 2015 11:26 AM
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| I like characters like Taiga for example but usually, after a couple of episodes I want to slap/kill them because they get f annoying. |
| Honestly I haven't seen a well-written Tsundere in a long time. Well, not in an anime anyway. |
| Anyone who doesn't hate anime hasn't watched enough anime. - Anonymous |
| I like quite a few tsunderes. FMP's Chidori is absolutely adorable and a nice character, I don't know how can one dislike her :O |
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Clefairiess said: I like tsunderes but I don't like it when they act so in denial when it comes to their love. I mean, I love their sass, and I think it's hilarious when they hit the mc. But... Plz do not be in denial. It's annoying :/ Hilarious priorities. But yeah, tsunderes are shit. All of it. Hitting the mc, the denial, and all the other irrational BS that comes with the territory. Some characters do alright in spite of their tsundere characteristics, but only because they aren't defined by it. And even they would likely be improved by removing their tsundere characteristics. It's truly baffling how these characters can act like brats, and yet still receive more attention and affection both in-universe and from the fanbase compared to the more pleasant and rational characters (that can still have their own quirks without being irrational assholes). I mean if anime must absolutely pander to the gap moe crowd, surely a badass/fighter type character showing a softer side would be better. |
Red_Keys said: "Horribly immature bitch" is not a character trait I deem admirable or pleasant. Their deplorable actions are only forgiven because of cute character designs. Tsunderes suck ass. |
| NO NO NO. Fuck tsundere characters. I hate them so much. They are so unnecessary and every aspect of them sucks. |
alphaAngel said: NO NO NO. Fuck tsundere characters. I hate them so much. They are so unnecessary and every aspect of them sucks. Why did you dislike tsundere? Is tsundere your worst cliche and trait on anime? If yes, same goes to Black Guy Critic from YouTube who also criticized tsundere as worst cliche and trait on anime. Compared tsundere girl to feminist. |
| I lile tsunderes as long as they arent too violent or rude and they do at one point try to confess there feelings or at least realise them. And Im not the only one who dislikes Kirino thank you everyone! |
saint0fst33l said: Generally if the tsundere is physically abusive like zero no fukishima then i have problems with it but i think a well written tsundere can be quite nice in terms of character development. I couldn't watch zero. Harsh is one thing, physically abusive is something else. When I say I like Tsunderes, I'm talking about girls like Yui in To Love Ru or Kuriso from Stein's Gate. I've had to save a very good friend from a physically abusive relationship and don't find it humorous. |
| A well written tsundere is Asuka. At least she's charming. At least she's not annoying moe like Taiga. |
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Clefairiess said: A well written tsundere is Asuka. At least she's charming. At least she's not annoying moe like Taiga. Asuka is a bitch. Then again, Shinji is more of a bitch so I guess that evens it out. |
hoopla123 said: Clefairiess said: A well written tsundere is Asuka. At least she's charming. At least she's not annoying moe like Taiga. Asuka is a bitch. Then again, Shinji is more of a bitch so I guess that evens it out. That what makes her loveable. |
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