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Tastes aside, do bloodsucking pirate leeches who don't pay for anything anyway, and who never made anything of value themselves... Well, do they have any right to judge anything?

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May 21, 2021 4:30 AM
#1
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May 2018
2260
For instance...

As a child you fell in love with some anime, or manga, and spent days drawing its characters, and situations...

You know you suck, after all, drawing is hard - anyone can do it, but most of people are simply bad at it without often years of training - especially when it comes to human anatomy.

Still, you don't give up, you are simply THAT passionate; with time you go from this:



to this:



Eventually you even make a Pixiv account, and a lot of people notice you, among them those who work in anime industry, and they offer you to design character for a planned anime...

And you accept, and anime gets made...

...

Then what happens?

Some lazy, non-contributing smartass comes along, and start saying stuff like: I dunno, I appreciate effort, but those designs are pretty bad.

4/10

Is that fair?

I just gave an example with art, but it can storytelling, music, animation, etc...

Enjoy in thread.
May 21, 2021 4:38 AM
#2

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May 2019
967
Bro this is not an easy topic to discuss about.

But it is an entertainment industry isn't it? Negative comments (or judges) are supposed to be there.
May 21, 2021 4:49 AM
#3

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Apr 2021
262
I'm ok with pirating if it is the only option. We also wouldn't have the modern anime community without fansubs.

I wouldn't even label pirates as "bloodsucking leeches" when they might not even have the money to afford a Hulu subscription. I would instead lay the blame on the anime industry, and its tendency to put a bunch of shows behind paywalls. Those corporations should know fully well know, that if someone can't watch something they want to watch legally, they will do it illegally.
May 21, 2021 4:51 AM
#4

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Aug 2020
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Imagine paying for something when you can get it for free
01001110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101110 01101110 01100001 00100000 01100111 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110101 01110000
May 21, 2021 5:05 AM
#5

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Jul 2020
1843
I'll respond to the question later in the post.

Here's my thing. I personally hate to pirate, I only do it when I need to watch something that I just can't watch. 2 examples would be the lost girls OVA, and the Heavens feel 3 movie.

I have no problem with people pirating though. As long as they don't complain about what the studios are doing, etc. I have no issue. The reason is because, if you can't pay for something, or can't watch something where you live, the smart thing to do would to be pirate it.

To add on, some people may actually have the money, but wanna spend it on things they consider more important.

To answer the question, I personally do think its fair. Unless its a situation where not pirating can make the art, animation, music, etc, better. I think its fair to give your opinion on something. Not to mention that negative opinions help more than positive ones, since positive opinions are usually just praising you which does feel good, but it doesn't help you in the long run. The ideal thing would be someone to call out the problems with what you made. Which can help you improve, and erase the negative opinions.

So do I think its fair? Yes. Everyone has the right to an opinion. Plus, no matter who its from, negative opinions most of the time help more than positive ones.
I gave up on character of the week since it takes too much thinking. I'll just change my forum pfp to whoever I want every week lol.
May 21, 2021 5:38 AM
#6
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Jul 2018
561867
yeah, i would say that's completely fair, if they're just talking about the design then it doesn't matter wether they've paid to see it or not because their opinion probably wouldn't have differed either way, at the end of the day its just an opinion so i wouldn't pay much attention to it.
May 21, 2021 5:46 AM
#7

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Aug 2016
4639
They can say whatever, but it's up to the individual to CHOOSE to value someone's opinion or not.
May 21, 2021 5:50 AM
#8
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Jul 2018
561867
Of course, and as an amateur musician myself I value all input. In fact, I don't expect you to pay for any of my stuff. If you do, I consider it patronage.

This whole "Hollywood-esque" meat grinder model we have going on is due for some serious revision anyway. Artists aren't valued.
May 21, 2021 5:53 AM
#9

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Oct 2010
21955
I don't have money to buy the monalisa but if I see it I can judge it, it's a good painting.
anyone can judge my drawings, it's on my blog free of charge, if someone thinks it's shit, no problem.
you're over exagerrating as always
May 21, 2021 6:05 AM
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Jul 2018
561867
I never knew you had to pay money just to give an opinion. Anime is subjective entertainment and people have the right to judge it accordingly. Plus, not all people have the money to afford payment plans on anime streaming websites.
May 21, 2021 6:05 AM

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May 2020
852
bro, if theres a free option to watch anime, ill certainly do it. i dont need to pay for a streaming platform knowing theres other option than to pay.
May 21, 2021 6:06 AM

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Feb 2021
7245
SeekingChaos said:
Imagine paying for something when you can get it for free
By your logic everyone that owns a phone is a idiot because you can just get it for free by stealing it.
May 21, 2021 6:10 AM

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Aug 2020
297
if the only other option is shitty crunchyroll or shitty funimation then I choose piracy any day, can’t even run crunchyroll on my pc without it buffering every 3 seconds and the options aren’t very wide. the fact you have to subscribe to multiple services just to get not even everything the medium has to offer (OVA’s, movies) is bs.

also if your an artist who doesn’t want to be criticized for your work, you won’t make it far. I also don’t see why you need to pay to state your opinion on something, where did that idea ever form?
clannad is the greatest piece of fiction to ever exist.
May 21, 2021 6:13 AM
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Jul 2018
561867
MadanielFL said:
SeekingChaos said:
Imagine paying for something when you can get it for free
By your logic everyone that owns a phone is a idiot because you can just get it for free by stealing it.


Actually no, because you'll be paying for it with your time. In the locker.
Poor investment.
May 21, 2021 6:14 AM

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Dec 2018
2183
Yes it's fair you genius. Imagine putting out arts to the public and expect everyone to commend you. Imagine not expecting criticisms and still choose to pursue art. If you put out art to the public, you should be mentally prepared and get yourself a thick skin.
. . .
May 21, 2021 6:15 AM

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Mar 2018
1049
Wow it’s hard to create things? Who would’ve thought? I thought people just think of things and zap it into reality. Nothing is perfect there will always be a flaw with something, people will find flaws with things that almost everyone thinks is great because different views think different things. You think someone deserves a 10 because they worked hard? If it’s trash to someone it’s trash to someone. It took the creator of “Joshua and the promised land” 4 years to make his movie,all props to him I know animation is hard but it’s still not good. And what does paying have to do with it? I still saw the media wether I payed or not how does that make me less or better qualified? It doesn’t do anything. Anyone is qualified to critique things people don’t have to be good at the thing they’re critiquing to be qualified for it. You just have to have knowledge watching/analyzing whatever media you’re critiquing.
People critiquing work does not make it better or lesser than it already was, in the end it’s just someone critiquing you’re work. You have the full responsibility of deciding how much value that critique holds, you can decide if it’s good, you can decide to improve, you can decide if it’s bad. Not everyone is gonna think something is great if you only want good critique than you’re just getting lied to.
May 21, 2021 6:19 AM

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Nov 2018
6132
How much money for streaming subscriptions go towards the creators? How much money goes towards lining the pockets of the streaming platforms? The only argument for paying for subscription services is for moral reasons, to think that "you're actually helping the anime industry" is an anime fan's "duty" or "moral obligation".

The only streaming service I use is Netflix, but I'd rather pirate anime and buy the actual source material knowing that more of that money will go and support mangakas and LN authors who need the money the most (they probably don't get much in terms of royalties anyway). Also the fact that I have no obligation to pay for 15 different services to watch most of the legal anime out there, as well as going to theaters and watching the movies. I've already spent hundreds of $$$ for manga and contributing to the industry, am I not qualified to criticize anime that I pirate?

If only we didn't have to deal with region-locking, poor streaming connectivity, series that have been picked up by obscure streaming services, or series that haven't been translated by said services, then maybe more of us would pay to watch anime. It's funny to think how pirate sites provide a better quality service with more availability than actual legal sites.

People can judge anime however they want. Most of us probably first started watching anime using pirating sites in the first place (like I did).
_cjessop19_May 21, 2021 6:24 AM
MAL EMOJIS - Get your specially formatted emojis for MAL forums.

May 21, 2021 6:23 AM

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Feb 2021
315
As a screenwriter and filmmaker, I'd like to live my two cents here and I hope I can help in some way.

I understand the blood, sweat and tears. I understand the nights with no sleep, the days where you just skip lunch. I understand having headaches from working 18 hour days in front of a computer. I understand it all. I've been through that countless times.

Then comes the day when you're done. The work is ready. And you release it to the world. All your hard-work is finally going to pay-off. People are going to know your name and admire you. Except... they don't. Well, some do - maybe most of them - but a few people don't. And it doesn't matter if 98% of people like it, you'll always be bothered by those 2% who shit on that thing you worked so hard on.

My advice is to set yourself free the moment your work of art is released. Accept that it is no longer yours, now it belongs to the world. If it is good, it's good. People might not appreciate it at first, but it will stand the test of time and eventually be fully appreciated. Or maybe it's not good enough. And that's fine as well, as long as you gave it your all it's always worth it. It was, at the very least, a learning experience. A stepping stone on the path you set for yourself.

I know negative criticism hurts (especially if it's not even constructive), but you have to learn to live with it. You shouldn't ignore it completely because very often there's some truth behind it (except when it's clearly just trolling). And you shouldn't fear it either. I have never seen a work of art (film, tv, painting, architecture, etc) that is unanimously praised. I mean, how boring would it be if everyone perceived your work in the same way?

TL;DR: As soon as you release your work, it seizes to be yours. Just move on to the next one, worker harder and harder and always aim to learn from every experience.
May 21, 2021 6:29 AM

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Jul 2016
1153
This is the best bait of the year so far. Well done.

It would be funny if a lazy pirate and a pay-to-watch anime fan both agreed that something was good/shit amiright? Because it's a paradox. You must disregard one's opinion but that opinion is the same as the one you have to regard.
May 21, 2021 7:28 AM

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Jun 2017
3106
Psajdak said:
Some lazy, non-contributing smartass comes along, and start saying stuff like: I dunno, I appreciate effort, but those designs are pretty bad.

But what if the lazy, non-contributing smartass loves your stuff and sings its praises all over the internet (but still refuses to pay anything), and it's the paying customer who says your designs suck? Will you ignore the former, and change your drawings to satisfy the latter? Even if you think the paying customer has ​shit taste?

As I see it, one has to take the criticism from whoever it comes, and take the money from those willing to pay. They are different things.

May 21, 2021 7:34 AM

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Sep 2018
14390
I think whether you pirate something or not you can give feedback on it; however, there is no reason to cater to pirates criticisms specifically since they are not your paying consumers.
May 21, 2021 7:38 AM

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Nov 2016
2009
Putting your work out there and expecting no one to dislike it just because of the effort you put in it really is the sweetest of dreams isn't it?

Edit: The example given by OP doesn't really work with the entire piracy debate since character designs are generally plastered all over an anime's promotional contents and so nobody needs to pay a dime to access them. Also on the specific subject of anime fan artists I think it's fair to assume that most people paying for those already like the authors work and so I really doubt these authors would have much room for improvement if they only value the feedback of people already loving their works?
JoyBoy_316May 21, 2021 8:27 AM
May 21, 2021 7:45 AM

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Aug 2020
1138
I prefer to pirate rather than just pay to say my opinion, because it seems that many think that when paying for a streaming service your opinion is valid.
Anyway, whether I see it illegally or not, I'll say what I mean, and if someone tells me that my opinion is not valid for seeing it pirate, then they just don't agree with my opinion and only use that as an argument, because someone normal accept opinions regardless of the situation of the other.
a wise user of MAL said:
Just to clarify, adaptations should absolutely stand on their own
May 21, 2021 9:48 AM

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Feb 2019
2410
If no money = invalid judgement, then it follows that more money = increasingly valid judgement.

So, if some eccentric billionaire purchased every copy of a new book or movie they funded, and declared it the greatest work of art of all of humanity's history and future, they'd be correct in doing so, since they have 100% of the monetary stake in judging the work.

In other words, quality can now be bought, not earned.

And now the entertainment industry is even more of a capitalist nightmare. Good job.
Well I for one already loved Lain.
May 21, 2021 12:37 PM
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Jan 2012
2781
Criticism is ALWAYS allowed, but the problem is people don't understand the difference between constructive criticism and being a ball of toxic shit.

Most artists will tell you that constructive criticism is appreciated, they won't get better without it, but then you'll still have people say awful shit like calling their work trash, and bitch and whine about their tastes not being seen in the artist's work. Regardless of whether you pirate or pay for your shit that's literally never justified.
May 21, 2021 3:47 PM

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Jan 2021
200
Yes, paying for an opinion. Just perfect :)

"Ouch, I REALLY hate this action show that turned into incoherent pointless lolicon bait. However, I didn't pay to use the streaming service that hosted this anime. Hmm, 9/10! YAY everyone wins!!11!"

----

Honestly though, as an art hobbyist myself, I had several phases where I became extremely desperate on criticism. As of now, I'm not as desperate, but I still greatly appreciate any criticism on my works, even without my consent.

Professionals in the industry are pretty much required to take in this criticism, by practice, since it's really one of the best ways to learn from mistakes.

People just need to differentiate between constructive and destructive criticism. The former points out the problems, more specifically, and sometimes even how they could be resolved.

Don't associate judging and evaluating art with monetary gain/loss. They're completely independent.
Then again, this thread's probably bait but I wanted to share some thoughts, anyway.
May 21, 2021 4:01 PM

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_cjessop19_ said:
How much money for streaming subscriptions go towards the creators? How much money goes towards lining the pockets of the streaming platforms? The only argument for paying for subscription services is for moral reasons, to think that "you're actually helping the anime industry" is an anime fan's "duty" or "moral obligation".

The only streaming service I use is Netflix, but I'd rather pirate anime and buy the actual source material knowing that more of that money will go and support mangakas and LN authors who need the money the most (they probably don't get much in terms of royalties anyway). Also the fact that I have no obligation to pay for 15 different services to watch most of the legal anime out there, as well as going to theaters and watching the movies. I've already spent hundreds of $$$ for manga and contributing to the industry, am I not qualified to criticize anime that I pirate?

If only we didn't have to deal with region-locking, poor streaming connectivity, series that have been picked up by obscure streaming services, or series that haven't been translated by said services, then maybe more of us would pay to watch anime. It's funny to think how pirate sites provide a better quality service with more availability than actual legal sites.

People can judge anime however they want. Most of us probably first started watching anime using pirating sites in the first place (like I did).

This is a very good point. Most streaming sites don’t pay 5 cents per view, they pay 100k for 4 years worth of streaming rights or something like that. The only way subscribing to streaming sites helps creators is by giving future creators more leverage when negotiating the cost of those rights. And as you said, getting the source material, and to a lesser extent, blue ray and dvd sales support the industry much more
May 21, 2021 4:09 PM
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Oct 2019
308
so now we have to pay to state our opinions? opinions are always valid because they are based on people's personal logic, something everyone has and no one needs to pay for, so don't around saying that anyone has any more or less right to merely state an opinion on something
May 21, 2021 4:11 PM
Laughing Man

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7034
True, I should first pay every Devianrt artist drawing the most cursed Sonic fanarts before criticizing.

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May 21, 2021 4:12 PM

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875
Joke's on you to stop me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
May 21, 2021 4:17 PM

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848
Oh look, it's the resident troll that the mods refuse to ban making his bi-monthly "look at me" thread.
May 21, 2021 4:20 PM

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Jan 2014
79
Right? Do they have the right to judge? How old are you? Like 12. If I never made a film, can I never judge a film? ff I never wrote a novel, can I never judge a novel? Etc. It sounds so stupid.

Whether someone pays for something or whether someone knows the intricacies of the subject they're making a judgement is irrelevant. Everyone has a right to make a judgment or have an opinion about something, regardless of other factors.

Also, "anything of value". That's very subjective. What you call treasure might be trash to me and vice versa.

Honestly, the phrasing of the question makes it seem like you're butthurt over someone (most likely a bloodsucking pirate) criticizing your work and you're pissy about it.

May 21, 2021 4:25 PM
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Dec 2018
1485
I have this bias where I take the opinion of someone who has contributed to the series financially more seriously. How they show this is by posting anime/manga/light novel hauls.

If they spent money on something, then there is a good chance they would have spent more time on the content.

ConceptualheroMay 21, 2021 4:29 PM
I like dub more than sub because I am not a weeb.
May 21, 2021 4:29 PM

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Aug 2018
17114
hm, imagine paying to give an opinion.
May 21, 2021 4:31 PM

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Nov 2014
265
So yeah what you're describing is gate-keeping

congratulations
May 21, 2021 4:34 PM

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Mar 2018
498
But isn't all art subjective? It could be the highest rated, most praised show in the world, and there will still be at least a few people who say "I hated that, that was horrible". The company could be paid a whole lot of money, and there will still be people who say eh. Why does it matter if it's someone who's paying vs. not paying? All opinions are valid when critiquing or reviewing something. Look at all the review scores on Rotten Tomatoes, the projects that have a low critic score vs. high audience score and vice versa.


Why do we think that people were so sad that KissAnime/KissManga got shut down? Because it was the most popular pirating site, with great selection and high quality for those who didn't want to/couldn't pay. (BTW, RIP KissAnime)
And as some people have said, the entertainment industry is getting more capitalistic. Not that I won't go to the movies or buy games or whatnot, but I've noticed that the anime industry especially so. In 2019, Crunchyroll raised their ad-free subscription plan. The DVD set for the dub of the Persona 5 anime cost, like, almost $300. Like, yeah, I use Netflix, but not for my anime (I'll only use it for anime if I don't have access to my laptop/computer). I just find that if I can do so, I'll watch it for free!
"Smiles and laughter are always good, but never forget your poker face."
-Kaito Kuroba (aka Kaitou Kid)

"A thief is a creative artist who takes his prey in style. But a detective is nothing more than a critic who follows our footsteps."
-Kaito Kuroba (aka Kaitou Kid)



May 21, 2021 4:38 PM

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Aug 2019
5640
alright time to go buy that nonexistent blu ray from that anime studio that went bankrupt a decade ago so I can have a critical opinion on it
May 21, 2021 4:41 PM
🦆👑

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Jan 2020
66666
Regardless of feelings, there is no reason why criticism would be invalid. At the end of the day, both sides are consuming the same product.




ManWild

May 21, 2021 4:47 PM

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Jun 2017
1301
well, the reverse is 'wrong think' lol

so sure, anyone has the 'right' to judge whatever, but whoever you are, you sure do need to check your own authority on the matter when you're sharing it
May 21, 2021 4:53 PM

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478
Yes, it´s called free speech and everyone can do it. Next question.
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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May 21, 2021 5:42 PM

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21386
Yes, this went exactly like I expected.
You're a louse, Roger Smith. - R. Dorothy Wayneright
This is my fight! No Senpai, this is our fight! - Kojou Akatsuki & Yukina Himeragi
May 21, 2021 6:13 PM

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Feb 2021
7245
ACasualViewer said:
MadanielFL said:
By your logic everyone that owns a phone is a idiot because you can just get it for free by stealing it.


Cost benefit analysis must take into account the risk of an action, stealing phones have far greater personal risk to you than internet piracy. Beyond this, the 2 actions are not ethnically equivalent in the harm they cause either. In short its an apples and oranges comparison, it does not align with the logic of the original poster at all.
Still just because you can get something for free doesn't make you any better than those who pay for it.
May 21, 2021 6:23 PM

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Apr 2019
111
Its on the person on how they take the criticism, to some people it doesnt mean anything so they ignore it but to other people they hold value in it. so imo it is fair.
May 21, 2021 6:27 PM
#borntoboil

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Jan 2021
565
Basically, poor people don't have an opinion? I mean, the only way I can watch anime is to pirate it, I'm not wating 5 months so Cartoon Network puts some random shonen anime that I'll end up hating, because it's just not worth my time.

And the problem with this is that everything in life is subjective. Look, a lot of people loved FMA:B, right? There will always be personthat says that "I didn't like it." Everyone has a right to keep opinions, not everyone has the money to spend on streaming services, some of us still have cable TV, some of us would rather spend money on food and important resources rather than manga and BD disks.

And at the end of the day, your opinion is wrong because you think EVERYONE can spend 1000$ a day and yet be rich. Not everyone has the same luxury as you, OP.
i fucking hate manga (keeps reading manga

discord | o_ganji

May 21, 2021 6:31 PM

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Mar 2019
1214
I knew the title was so over the top, it was just meant to grab attention.

Regarding your question, if someone wants to pursue career in this medium, they sometimes need a reality check. They need to be really good at what they do. Even then some edgy kid will hate it just because everyone likes it.
Think of it this way, Mob Psycho has one of the best animation in the medium. But I've seen numerous "intellectuals" hating it, sometimes just because animation.

You need to distinct between criticism and hate.
light_straightMay 21, 2021 6:35 PM

Anime was it's best 20000 years ago, when cavemen drew art with real depth.
Modern anime is all garbage. I miss great old days of anime.
May 21, 2021 6:36 PM
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Jun 2017
526
There's a lot wrong with the initial post.

Firstly, the description of those judging the work in the title is not only a giant strawman, there are many genuine reasons to pirate content (anime/manga especially) due to factors such as localisation changes, licensing issues, etc. Go through the entire legal way, and the vast majority of anime/manga wouldn't be legally available in most countries.

Secondly, what accomplishments or lack thereof someone has made in the industry has no bearing on their ability to judge a work's quality if they have a good understanding of the medium and its technical aspects. You don't need to be a 5-star chef to be able to accurately say if a dinner is cooked well or not. To say otherwise is the epitome of both the argumentation from authority fallacy and gatekeeping.

Thirdly, the idea that a profession is hard isn't something to alleviate criticism. It can provide more respect to the creator if working with limitations (eg. Toriyama's notoriously tight schedule when creating the Dragon Ball manga along with multiple side projects, Oda's health problems in the more recent years of One Piece, etc.) but that still doesn't make criticism or judgement of things such as the consistency of a story's writing, faults in the art/animation, placement of music, etc. any less valid. To devalue criticism because a profession is hard or because they haven't gone through the same experiences will only cause your work to either stagnate or not reach its full potential. The phrase constructive criticism exists for a reason.

Finally, to say whether or not they put money in makes their opinion valid is an absolutely scummy outlook that represents a lot of problems in modern companies today (and why many potential fans refuse to support them for their financial practises), which makes you referring to those who don't pay as leeches fairly ironic.

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