| 1. Shintoism > Christianity 2. "western movie" != US movie != Europe 3. Japanese story telling is quite good, and has a strong tradition (but not "the best") 4. JP = 70% of the annual animation production world wide, fast evolution. |
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HisokaxMeruem said: Right, let's forget those Godzilla movies from the 60's and 70's.The best example for this is Godzilla, compare Shin Godzilla from JP to the western shit that came out, you cant even compare the two because shin godzilla is just waaay better in storytelling and keeping godzilla terrifying, meanwhile in the west its only a big monster battle arena They totally weren't big monster battle arena... |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| just like all stories some are good some are bad. there's no "definitive" in both sides while myself didnt dabble in any japanese literature as of late, my 9th to 11th grade literature took quite a toll on me so i have to disagree. |
| Like hell am I actually reading the comments in this thread. The anti-weebs are probably out in full force. OP is right though. Western media is, for the most part, artistically bankrupt, mostly due to social political influence and agendas. Fact is, the closest thing the west has ever had to the kind of open-minded, liberated, artistically expressive space that manga/anime/VN/LN represents is with the 20th century comics boom, and I think otaku media has long since surpassed that. I always bring up Evangelion as a good example of a story that just wouldn't get told in the west. I'm not raising it up on a pedestal as some tend to do, only gave it an 8 myself, but it makes for a good example that most people have seen. Eva combines elements that just wouldn't get combined in western media. On the one hand it's about adolescents piloting giant robots and fighting off weird space aliens in colorful, loud, bombastic fights, but on the other hand it's a serious character study based around deep themes of depression and isolation which are woven with great care in to the narrative. Eva gives us an entire episode of the former, before indulging in a long, slow, quiet, brooding segment. Honestly, I think a big part of it is how judgmental the west is. People just can't accept strange, different things. That's why I love anime fans. Even the ones with the most vanilla, mainstream taste in anime at least have an open enough mind to explore this strange foreign media. If there's one thing I seriously can't stand, it's narrow-minded persepctives on how story-telling should be, or what good art is full stop. When people put restrictions on expression, it angers me. Because I like to see things that explore new ground, that do things differently, that have no pretention but rather just want to tell a story without outside influence, a story that comes from a place within, rather than without. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| I saw this thread and found this video that explains the difference between Western and Eastern storytelling. Hope this helps the discussion. Western Vs. Eastern Storytelling |
AddaeAkonoSep 10, 2019 9:00 AM
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| I think both excel at different things. Anime rarely if at all has things like crime dramas, political thrillers or slow-burn movies where the sense of impending dread is not rooted in the supernatural. Conversely, there isn't much Slice of Life stories in western fiction. The closest that I can think of are from children's literature like Anne of Green Gables, Adventures of Tom Sawyer. |
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YossaRedMage said: Like hell am I actually reading the comments in this thread. The anti-weebs are probably out in full force. OP is right though. Western media is, for the most part, artistically bankrupt, mostly due to social political influence and agendas. No, it isn't. Holy shit, with the dumb generalizations. Western media is, for the most part, a huge amalgamation of ideas, cultures and influences that anime with its condition of local medium and industry can't even hope to achieve. This whole tale about how non-judgmental anime fans are while you yourself dismiss a much wider category with a single reductive statement is not good for your point either. |
| Definitely disagree. I think anime does many things western media isn't doing, and does a lot of things better. But to argue that storytelling is better....nah. The sheer diversity of western storytelling makes it more rich than anime to me. You can watch TV shows or films about so many different experiences, in so many different genres. This is generalizing a bit, but anime is like...90% high school characters in a club (or approx high school aged characters doing something). Where is the anime about moms or dads or single parents? About minorities living in Japan? About gay or lesbian people? About adults in general? Anime barely begins to tap into any of the demographics Western media normally makes stories about, and I think that is really limiting. |
YossaRedMage said: Like hell am I actually reading the comments in this thread. The anti-weebs are probably out in full force. If by 'anti-weebs' you mean people saying that it's fucking retarded to generalize decades of varied storytelling in various mediums and say one is strictly better than the other as a whole while the 'weebs' make up bullshit arguments based on ignorance, selective perception and not knowing even 5% of what the west has to offer and only judging it based on cherrypicked mainstream media the same way that actual anime haters judge anime just based on Pokemon and tentacle porn, then yes, this thread is rightfully full of posts like that. I find it fascinating how anyone who doesn't unapologetically glorify japanese media over anything else the world has to offer is painted as 'anti-anime' or 'anti-otaku' by people like you, over and over again. Great example of the toxic 'If you're not with us and our extremely one-sided views, then you have to be against us'. It's that mentality that rubs any reasonable person with a balanced view the wrong way. Bonus points for shoehorning your political views into the argument, before you move on to another thread where you rant about people on the other side of the political spectrum doing the same. The hypocrisy is through the roof. If there's one thing I seriously can't stand, it's narrow-minded persepctives on how story-telling should be, or what good art is full stop. When people put restrictions on expression, it angers me. Because I like to see things that explore new ground, that do things differently, that have no pretention but rather just want to tell a story without outside influence, a story that comes from a place within, rather than without. How can you say that with a straight face after +1ing OPs post which basically does exactly that, talk about one singular and very specific approach to storytelling and how Japan arguably does it better, and therefore concluding that it is superior as a whole because all the other approaches to storytelling, all the other themes that you can find in western media are not seen as worthy. Both japanese and western media are far too varied to generalize them in such a way, both have different strengths and weaknesses and anyone who truly cared about being open-minded in regards to storytelling and its themes would recognize that. But glorifying anything japanese while having extremely reductive, politically charged views on western media and how it should be is not the way to display that open-mindedness you allegedly value. It's always the one-sided views like yours and OPs that are narrow-minded and until you reflect on that and accept that there really is no point in even talking about topics like this because your 'side' inherently refuse to accept anything good about western media because your opinions are so heavily based on prejudices, generalizations and very specific ideas of what kind of storytelling is acceptable that you become blind and deaf to any point the rest of us might have about the strengths of western media and the weaknesses of japanese media. It's all black and white, Japan can do no wrong and the west can do no right and that's the end of it, that's all I ever get from your posts about this topic. Having the audacity to complain about 'narrow-minded' perspectives when you're like that is really the biggest irony and hypocrisy I can think of. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
HisokaxMeruem said: Mhmm, please be more specific next time.Cabron said: yea, sorry I am not a boomer, my answer is about the current time and not some shit from the stone agesRight, let's forget those Godzilla movies from the 60's and 70's. They totally weren't big monster battle arena... |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
YossaRedMage said: As someone whose on-screen entertainment this year so far has consisted of:Like hell am I actually reading the comments in this thread. The anti-weebs are probably out in full force. OP is right though. Western media is, for the most part, artistically bankrupt, mostly due to social political influence and agendas. * finishing sixteen cours of not-previously-watched anime series, plus sundry other items including an anime movie * a variety of video games, probably a majority of which are from Japan (and certainly a majority of time spent, given how much time I spend on 100% Orange Juice) * one western movie (Into the Spider-verse, a few days ago) * about ten episodes of Law & Order: SVU, because I got bored one day and binged them * random bullshit on youtube ...I have to say, good gosh you are being horribly presumptuous about the west. (Also, I dare you to call me an "anti-weeb", when, on top of what I just cited, I know far more about anisong/J-pop than I do about western pop, to the point where I can sing/play the tunes of 200+ anime theme songs or other J-pop songs for you on demand. Despite having lived in the west for all my life. And I also know a bit too much about Japanese indie games and who's who among notable western publishers and what work they've done.) You're right that Evangelion is a story that wouldn't be written by a westerner. But by the same token, anime has yet to present me with anything that even comes close to emulating the distinctive combination of stark tone, high degree of and detailed realism, and serious, focused, dramatic content that the Law & Order franchise has. They're different mediums, yes. But the reality of them does not align with your biases. Pullman said: I entirely agree with this paragraph.Both japanese and western media are far too varied to generalize them in such a way, both have different strengths and weaknesses and anyone who truly cared about being open-minded in regards to storytelling and its themes would recognize that. But glorifying anything japanese while having extremely reductive, politically charged views on western media and how it should be is not the way to display that open-mindedness you allegedly value. |
GlennMagusHarveySep 10, 2019 12:26 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GarLogan78 said: And unfortunately there are people who claim to defend "artistic integrity" and "artistic freedom" yet get very worked up when people make stories about a more varied set of protagonists and then criticize such artistic efforts as "forced diversity" or such.Definitely disagree. I think anime does many things western media isn't doing, and does a lot of things better. But to argue that storytelling is better....nah. The sheer diversity of western storytelling makes it more rich than anime to me. You can watch TV shows or films about so many different experiences, in so many different genres. This is generalizing a bit, but anime is like...90% high school characters in a club (or approx high school aged characters doing something). Where is the anime about moms or dads or single parents? About minorities living in Japan? About gay or lesbian people? About adults in general? Anime barely begins to tap into any of the demographics Western media normally makes stories about, and I think that is really limiting. That said I think you're not really giving anime enough credit by saying it's "90% high school characters in a club", but on the other hand if you're expanding it to basically middle-to-high-school-age characters of some sort in the main cast, that probably does make up a solid majority and then some of anime, yeah. There's definitely a dearth of adult protagonists doing adult things. I think they may be more common in manga, just the more niche manga that gets read by adults? Also there are some gay and lesbian characters/elements in anime, though they're not often portrayed in ways outside the usual stuff that's considered to be aimed at titillating specific audiences (often of the opposite gender, amusingly). |
GlennMagusHarveySep 10, 2019 12:41 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Western animation?: Yes, anime is definitely better. Western live action movies and TV?: No, it's not particularly better, they're about equal. |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
| No, I don't. God, I always make the same mistake of reading this kind of threads. |
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| Nah man, Japan just got em' anime tiddies |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Also there are some gay and lesbian characters/elements in anime, though they're not often portrayed in ways outside the usual stuff that's considered to be aimed at titillating specific audiences (often of the opposite gender, amusingly). That was the bit I disagreed the most with @GarLogan78's post (aside from the 90% high school stuff that I take as hyperbole to make a point). Japanese fiction is not exactly behind Western fiction in terms of LGBT content, at least not in relative terms, and if we reduce the comparison to Hollywood and mainstream US media vs manga/anime, I think manga/anime are actually far ahead. |
| Not really it's just hollywood that is crap since they make huge investments so they have to minimize the risk |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
jal90 said: Yeah, and a similar comment applies to female empowerment as well. But both cases come with the caveat that these tropes are frequently correlated with certain other tropes -- for example, how lesbian anime characters are very often bishoujo characters as well. This is not a bad thing per se, but if we're talking about the variety of character and plot types, this can be somewhat limiting.GlennMagusHarvey said: Also there are some gay and lesbian characters/elements in anime, though they're not often portrayed in ways outside the usual stuff that's considered to be aimed at titillating specific audiences (often of the opposite gender, amusingly). That was the bit I disagreed the most with @GarLogan78's post (aside from the 90% high school stuff that I take as hyperbole to make a point). Japanese fiction is not exactly behind Western fiction in terms of LGBT content, at least not in relative terms, and if we reduce the comparison to Hollywood and mainstream US media vs manga/anime, I think manga/anime are actually far ahead. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: jal90 said: Yeah, and a similar comment applies to female empowerment as well. But both cases come with the caveat that these tropes are frequently correlated with certain other tropes -- for example, how lesbian anime characters are very often bishoujo characters as well. This is not a bad thing per se, but if we're talking about the variety of character and plot types, this can be somewhat limiting.That was the bit I disagreed the most with @GarLogan78's post (aside from the 90% high school stuff that I take as hyperbole to make a point). Japanese fiction is not exactly behind Western fiction in terms of LGBT content, at least not in relative terms, and if we reduce the comparison to Hollywood and mainstream US media vs manga/anime, I think manga/anime are actually far ahead. That's quite true as well, but I think body normativity affects anime in a more global scale, with LGBT characters being also affected only in consequence. |
jal90 said: Oh (correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but) by "bishoujo" I don't just mean that the girls are attractive but that their attractiveness is intentionally meant as part of the work's appeal/marketing/etc..GlennMagusHarvey said: Yeah, and a similar comment applies to female empowerment as well. But both cases come with the caveat that these tropes are frequently correlated with certain other tropes -- for example, how lesbian anime characters are very often bishoujo characters as well. This is not a bad thing per se, but if we're talking about the variety of character and plot types, this can be somewhat limiting. That's quite true as well, but I think body normativity affects anime in a more global scale, with LGBT characters being also affected only in consequence. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
aditya47 said: Superns18 said: That's not to say that western movies or media is bad, just that it seems in general a lot more watered down to me. I feel like Japanese media, both anime and live action is just written a lot better and more realistic. The conflicts tend to be more internal and relatable for the audience. Even films like Kimi No Na Wa which are obviously really fantastical, still offer realistic and relatable emotions for the audience. That feeling of longing and nostalgia that you can't quite explain. Then you've got my personal favourite work of ART of ALL time in any category, Koe No Katachi. The storytelling is just so rich and layered and is an accurate representation of the bullying that disabled and handicapped kids go through, self acceptance, forgiveness and how hard it can be to truly make friends, etc. When you compare that to the average stuff that comes out of Hollywood or Atlanta these days, it just is leagues ahead. Personally, I feel that Japanese storytelling tends to focus on the harsh reality of life a lot more than western media. A lot of this comes down to Japanese culture and mentality( doing a PhD in Political Sci focusing on Japan next year) Even though you love someone and jump through these hoops, things might not work out like in some of Shinkai's films or even though you want to stay with someone forever and protect them, people die, it's inevitable. Anime tends to show this side of life a lot more and how characters cope with it and ultimately grow from it. Learning to live again, learning what it means to love, accepting that life, while difficult, is still worth living, etc. These are all things I've learnt from watching anime, most notable my favourite two I want to Eat your Pancreas and Koe No Katachi, but these themes are present in many of my top 10. This is my opinion, I welcome discussion around this. lol buddy just checked your list which comprises of 95%popular stuff (60days worth anime)so it's no surprise you find it better than hollywood. I think it's easy to get someone hooked till 100days worth anime(Japanese are the best/anime rules phase).Most Veterans will agree with me on this (100-200days he will be like it's average)and after 200+ that's tough then the person would have to wait for year to find something enjoyable(and yes i don't mean watchable). Myanimelist shows 300 airing anime atm ; you haven't watched a fraction of those to compare then with currently airing movies in hollywood. now for hollywood movies i suggest you to complete imdb top 250 first .i watched 80% of them then switched to anime watching(i have watched 700+ hollywood movies and that's a low estimate) .approximately i get a movie worth watching once a year if i'm lucky ; the last movie that i enjoyed was Green book (2018). for anime i think i'll topout at 200days worth ; i have huge respect for the people who have watched more than 200days. tl;dr hollywood still is top dog .jap anime comes in a solid 2nd spot for now as Chinese anime could take them probably in a few decades. I think a lot of MAL members lose sight of just how much fucking TV people here watch. Most people don't even watch 100 days worth of any amount of television in their life much less anime. MALers just watch such an enormous amount of television that some people here actually think 200 completions is a small number. Ask any random person on the street if they think somebody who's watched 200 seasons of anime whether that's a lot and they'd say its a huge amount. The entire Walking Dead series for example would take a little over 3 full days worth of television time to watch. Which means somebody would have to watch the entire walking dead series about 33 times in order to reach 100 days. Anybody would find that they are running out of good stuff after watching 100 days worth of television. I'm sorry but by then you are simply running out of the best stuff out there. |
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Ryuk9428 said: Most people don't even watch 100 days worth of any amount of television in their life much less anime. Not sure what you mean by 'television' here as in sitting in front of the TV itself remote in hand or watching a show on some streaming platform, but I think you severely underestimate how much time people spend in front of a screen. Stretching over a lifetime, people have probably spent 100 days just channel surfing. I'm sorry but by then you are simply running out of the best stuff out there I don't see how this follows at all. |
syncrogazer said: Ryuk9428 said: Most people don't even watch 100 days worth of any amount of television in their life much less anime. Not sure what you mean by 'television' here as in sitting in front of the TV itself remote in hand or watching a show on some streaming platform, but I think you severely underestimate how much time people spend in front of a screen. Stretching over a lifetime, people have probably spent 100 days just channel surfing. I'm sorry but by then you are simply running out of the best stuff out there I don't see how this follows at all. The only person I know who watches more TV than I do is my mom. By 100 days, you've probably already seen the best stuff available from anywhere. |
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| It's much better yeah, there'a a reason why I almost never watch live action stuff. |
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aditya47 said: Superns18 said: That's not to say that western movies or media is bad, just that it seems in general a lot more watered down to me. I feel like Japanese media, both anime and live action is just written a lot better and more realistic. The conflicts tend to be more internal and relatable for the audience. Even films like Kimi No Na Wa which are obviously really fantastical, still offer realistic and relatable emotions for the audience. That feeling of longing and nostalgia that you can't quite explain. Then you've got my personal favourite work of ART of ALL time in any category, Koe No Katachi. The storytelling is just so rich and layered and is an accurate representation of the bullying that disabled and handicapped kids go through, self acceptance, forgiveness and how hard it can be to truly make friends, etc. When you compare that to the average stuff that comes out of Hollywood or Atlanta these days, it just is leagues ahead. Personally, I feel that Japanese storytelling tends to focus on the harsh reality of life a lot more than western media. A lot of this comes down to Japanese culture and mentality( doing a PhD in Political Sci focusing on Japan next year) Even though you love someone and jump through these hoops, things might not work out like in some of Shinkai's films or even though you want to stay with someone forever and protect them, people die, it's inevitable. Anime tends to show this side of life a lot more and how characters cope with it and ultimately grow from it. Learning to live again, learning what it means to love, accepting that life, while difficult, is still worth living, etc. These are all things I've learnt from watching anime, most notable my favourite two I want to Eat your Pancreas and Koe No Katachi, but these themes are present in many of my top 10. This is my opinion, I welcome discussion around this. lol buddy just checked your list which comprises of 95%popular stuff (60days worth anime)so it's no surprise you find it better than hollywood. I think it's easy to get someone hooked till 100days worth anime(Japanese are the best/anime rules phase).Most Veterans will agree with me on this (100-200days he will be like it's average)and after 200+ that's tough then the person would have to wait for year to find something enjoyable(and yes i don't mean watchable). Myanimelist shows 300 airing anime atm ; you haven't watched a fraction of those to compare then with currently airing movies in hollywood. now for hollywood movies i suggest you to complete imdb top 250 first .i watched 80% of them then switched to anime watching(i have watched 700+ hollywood movies and that's a low estimate) .approximately i get a movie worth watching once a year if i'm lucky ; the last movie that i enjoyed was Green book (2018). for anime i think i'll topout at 200days worth ; i have huge respect for the people who have watched more than 200days. tl;dr hollywood still is top dog .jap anime comes in a solid 2nd spot for now as Chinese anime could take them probably in a few decades. What you're comparing is pretty invalid to be honest. You compare Hollywood movies to Japanese's anime (which consist of TV shows more than anything movies can offer) and telling him Hollywood still top dog. And with the path the Chinese is taking right now, I don't see them overtaking Japanest until I die. They produced the same old shows that their dramas and historical have made forever. |
| The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is. |
Ryuk9428 said: By 100 days, you've probably already seen the best stuff available from anywhere. Thanks for repeating but I'm asking why you think this is true. I also doubt your mom is consuming more content than young people. But I still don't know what you mean by TV... |
syncrogazerSep 10, 2019 7:19 PM
| Plenty of people do. Japanese storytelling tends to be highly stylized and simple to parse, with a few exceptions. Symbolism is straightforward, character personalities are relatively 2-dimensional, and relationships aren't all that complicated. While I find it to be occasionally lacking and predictable, I can see the appeal for many entertainment mediums. I can't imagine preferring Japanese literature -- modern or classic, over Western literature, however. |
| Harem is the opiate of the Anime fandom masses. |
| Biggest issue for me is when it comes to movies (which is a large amount of western media) movies are usually only the length of two anime episodes and even with sequels they still do not provide enough time to truly develop a story that makes you want to care. And the very few examples of western movies doing this right is when they focus on a very small event or subject. Western shows without source material also usually come out as trash and "hollywooded" out. TV anime on the other hand usually have tons of time to develop the plot and most have good source material already to base things from (and better quality originals as well). Of course anime suffers from the same issues but in my opinion on a much smaller scale since the focus more on TV anime instead of movies. It seems a lot of good western TV shows are out there nowadays but when compared to the 50+ years of movies it's still not enough when compared to anime. TLDR: TV anime give more time to flesh out serious issues, offer better pacing/writing and worldbuilding. Western TV shows do the same but since movies take up a large portion of western media that is where the issue is. |
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syncrogazer said: Ryuk9428 said: By 100 days, you've probably already seen the best stuff available from anywhere. Thanks for repeating but I'm asking why you think this is true. I also doubt your mom is consuming more content than young people. But I still don't know what you mean by TV... 100 days requires you to watch a relatively high percentage of all the anime that is out there. Given the person I'm responding to have 555 completions and 150 days of anime watched. Let's cut out 1/3 of the completions. That gives us about 375 completions. That's close to 2.5% of all the anime that's ever been produced according the MALgraphs. But I suspect most people, if they were to just randomly watch whatever happens to be on TV, would not enjoy most of what they are watching and would consider it a chore. The main reason you enjoy it is by selecting what you specifically want. This means that if you've watched 1 out of 40 animes, you have probably seen all the animes out there that would appeal or connect to you the most. For this reason, I would not be surprised if most people's mean score goes down the more animes they have completed because they aren't running into nearly as many shows that connect to them the way the first shows they watched did. |
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| just no dude. i always liked western cinema better than it's japanese counterpart, comparing of course the GOOD movies, aka lynch's weird ass films, ingmar bergman's, and even some newer stuff, like gaspar noe's and darren aranofky's, for example. those are all directors known for more artistic efforts, rather than trashy marvel adaptations, or something starring dwayne johnson. a lot of this media has influenced anime as well, like twin peaks (which by the way was huge in japan) with surreal 90's shows like lain or boogiepop phantom. anime lately has been feeling... lackluster. all the risks director's took in the 90's and 2000's that made it so much more interesting compared to western animation suddenly changed to cheap knockoffs of already existing trash, still trying to hang off that shade of worldwide glory they got in the past decade. japanese animation was always plagued by shitty direction, awkward dialogues and overall shitty writing, but lately it's been getting much worse. i guess it might have to do with the poor working conditions of animators in japan, that honestly can't allow proper artistic expression, turning the medium no better than cheap western romance tv novels. whatever, i just hope the nips get their heads outta their asses and start making good shows again. |
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| 95% of anime writting is garbage. Its not their fault completely that they suck at writting. I heard editors often want to change certain stuff in manga so the mangaka ends up getting limited instead of having more freedom when it comes to his stories. I don't often watch western shows but when i do i always end up marathoning them because they always have some special unique charm. I could point out that trying to base your argument on garbage cheesy slow uninteresting boring filled with plot holes movies doesn't help. Kimi no Na Wa its easily one of the worst written stories i ever seen. Shinkai shouldn't be legally allowed to be close to a script. Besides unlike western shows that will often get shutdown because they arent cash cows, anime's and manga/wha are entirely focused in making revenue. Charming stories that don't sell a shit ton of toys and blurays from ep 1 are doomed to die. Talent is not rewarded so why in the world they would try to make a coherent decently written story when they can just generate trash that gets them da money. Don't get me started into how horribly underpaid, overworked and exploited japanese animators are on the other hand. The purpose of japanese stories its always cash. If some manga generates revenue you can be damn sure the mangaka will end up prolonging the story not only for his benefit but for the editor/JUMP magazine. This always end up hurting the quality of the story :/ Shounen's are the worst example of my last points. A lot of people throw shit at isekai for being copy pasted trash but looking back at the past shounen as a genre is a baby that was born dead. There has barely been innovation amongs these tittles and the only reason any of these shows can get any recognition or praise its by exploiting animators like crazy (damn i wish i could work 393 hours a month to not being able to afford a single apartment to live in) to produce a crap ton of flashy smooth scenes that camuflage the complete lack of originality or charm when it comes to writting. I do have to say that western movies on these recent days have tanked incredibly hard (big movie studios in particular) and its getting more complicated seeing innovation amongst them. But Cordobez why the frick are you here if you dislike anime so much? I'm really stupid, so im more than qualified to be your average anime fan |
CordobezEverdeenSep 10, 2019 8:37 PM
Check out my taste and my profile. |
Ryuk9428 said: 100 days requires you to watch a relatively high percentage of all the anime that is out there. Given the person I'm responding to have 555 completions and 150 days of anime watched. Let's cut out 1/3 of the completions. That gives us about 375 completions. That's close to 2.5% of all the anime that's ever been produced according the MALgraphs. But I suspect most people, if they were to just randomly watch whatever happens to be on TV, would not enjoy most of what they are watching and would consider it a chore. The main reason you enjoy it is by selecting what you specifically want. This means that if you've watched 1 out of 40 animes, you have probably seen all the animes out there that would appeal or connect to you the most. For this reason, I would not be surprised if most people's mean score goes down the more animes they have completed because they aren't running into nearly as many shows that connect to them the way the first shows they watched did. So, basically just a huge assumption on your part that after a certain amount of time is spent on something a person will eventually get bored of it. A mundane observation that's nowhere near the same as someone having 'watched all of the good stuff' (whatever that means exactly). And this is all assuming that taste is unchanging and that they have awesome powers which enables them to only select stuff they'll like right from the start based on that, or that they can only properly connect to their earliest experiences... Personally, I don't see myself 'running out of anime' anytime soon. |
syncrogazerSep 10, 2019 8:52 PM
| You know, in the end, it just comes down to taste. People seem to be comparing Live action American moves/shows and anime. How stupid can you be? One is live action, the other is animation. They each have limits on what they can protray and each have a certain charm. You can't find a show like Kaiji(plz tell me, if you do know of one), and you can't find a show like Euphoria(not the best example). Another thing seperating these two is the cultures. Obviously. If America remade kaiji, it'd be different. If Japan remade euphoria it would be different. So what's better? That's your opinion. As for my opinion, I prefer anime. |
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| It depends on what you prefer, because good and bad are concepts that depend on your perspective. Maybe you've consumed a lot fiction, both japanese and western and still prefer japanese. Both of them are equal in portraying topics, but the way the handled them is different. Japanese fiction is mostly dialogue driven, while most of the western fiction is action driven. Which is why, you can feel that something is more realistic than the other. |
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ee_tramboliko said: whatever, i just hope the nips get their heads outta their asses and start making good shows again. ...I disagree with this person as much as you do but... was calling the people who work on anime that word and saying they need to get their heads out their asses... necessary? If you dislike modern anime, it's fine. I myself am neutral on the whole debate on whether anime has gotten worse throughout the years but I can see both sides of the argument. However, that felt needlessly nasty and uncalled for. These people (especially the animators) work their asses off on harsh deadlines to give us these shows more often than not with little pay. (One of the few studios that cared for their animators was Kyoani...) Your opinions on the work don't change the conditions that they have to put up with in order to make a project that believe it or not someone truly had passion for. Please, show these people some respect. I have severe doubts that if put into their shoes you would have more satisfactory results than them. |
| A treasure the color of the rainbow, the color of happiness |
Koji_AmpedASH said: Ok let me count how many western story telling "I have seen" that is good vs how many Japanese are good that "I have seen" JAPANESE InuYasha Neon Genesis Evangelion Macross Senran Kagura (yes its ecchi but actually has a good story lol) Kannazuki no miko Yami to boushi Devilman Kidou Senkan Nadesico Now as for western story telling Silverwing harrypotter Transformers Armada Bladerunner The starwars prequels and original trilogy The giver So in my experience Japan beats the west, even though the west has larger population and therefor should really produce more good stories then Japan does, but the west does not leading me to conclude that Japanese culture produces better stories Actually Transformers Armada is from the Unicron Trilogy. A set of three Japanese animated series ^^; So, it's not actually a western series. |
| A treasure the color of the rainbow, the color of happiness |
CordobezEverdeen said: Besides unlike western shows that will often get shutdown because they arent cash cows, anime's and manga/wha are entirely focused in making revenue. Charming stories that don't sell a shit ton of toys and blurays from ep 1 are doomed to die. Talent is not rewarded so why in the world they would try to make a coherent decently written story when they can just generate trash that gets them da money. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending OP. I believe their opinion on western media is unfounded and ignorant and this is coming from someone who loves anime. (even some of those people would see as bad XD) But I don't entirely understand your point. Western cartoons like the Thunder Cats reboot, The original Teen Titans, and Young Justice series remembered for their well written stories and developed characters were cancelled prematurely because they didn't sell enough toys while shows such as Teen Titans Go a show hated for it's bad humor and obnoxious characters has made it to 255 episodes and even a theatrical film and is still going strong because it sells. I don't understand where you're coming from with this. Western animation cancels charming series too soon as well. With any industry, money comes first. If any project that doesn't meet expectations with profit from the get go are in hot water. Why are you making like this is an anime exclusive issue? (I hope I'm not coming off as rude or as if I'm trying to start an argument. That is not my intention in the slightest I just find some of what you said as confusing ^^;) |
| A treasure the color of the rainbow, the color of happiness |
MarinBlue said: I have severe doubts that if put into their shoes you would have more satisfactory results than them. i really understand the amount of work they go through, for such a low salary. remember that guy from madhouse who was hospitalized after work 200+ hours overtime? yeah, sorry i can't respect that. specially if some "famous" voice actor or a half assed director take all the goddamn money. and you can't just go "but this is how the industry works", because it's just plain wrong man. you bet i wouldn't have better results than they do, i'd resign in the first week. i don't really care if old or new anime is better, these people are obviously working for a project they don't care about because they've got no other choice. if you want to be an animator in japan, you better get used to drawing the same scene over and over again. how can you be passionate about that? it's not like they have any say besides just drawing the damn frames. but if they want to animate, they've got no other choice. i can't blame them, honestly. |
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CHC said: Superns18 said: That's not to say that western movies or media is bad, just that it seems in general a lot more watered down to me. I feel like Japanese media, both anime and live action is just written a lot better and more realistic. The conflicts tend to be more internal and relatable for the audience. Even films like Kimi No Na Wa which are obviously really fantastical, still offer realistic and relatable emotions for the audience. That feeling of longing and nostalgia that you can't quite explain. Then you've got my personal favourite work of ART of ALL time in any category, Koe No Katachi. The storytelling is just so rich and layered and is an accurate representation of the bullying that disabled and handicapped kids go through, self acceptance, forgiveness and how hard it can be to truly make friends, etc. When you compare that to the average stuff that comes out of Hollywood or Atlanta these days, it just is leagues ahead. Personally, I feel that Japanese storytelling tends to focus on the harsh reality of life a lot more than western media. A lot of this comes down to Japanese culture and mentality( doing a PhD in Political Sci focusing on Japan next year) Even though you love someone and jump through these hoops, things might not work out like in some of Shinkai's films or even though you want to stay with someone forever and protect them, people die, it's inevitable. Anime tends to show this side of life a lot more and how characters cope with it and ultimately grow from it. Learning to live again, learning what it means to love, accepting that life, while difficult, is still worth living, etc. These are all things I've learnt from watching anime, most notable my favourite two I want to Eat your Pancreas and Koe No Katachi, but these themes are present in many of my top 10. This is my opinion, I welcome discussion around this. I think it is really less about how Japanese storytelling is more nuanced and personal than that mainstream Hollywood movies for these decades has been watered down to CG spectacles because of how financially profitable it is internationally. No one else other than the US can make Hollywood spectacle, so Hollywood makes the most money out of it. On the other hand, you have got a lot of different stuff in Western cinema too: Haneke, von Trier, Rohmer, Bergman, Kieślowski, Paul Thomas Anderson, etc. They do have great focus on the characters and deep, realistic, internal conflicts, and are often much more sophisticated and mature than most anime. But they are usually seen as art films, not easily accessible entertainment, so they kinda go unnoticed by the casual moviegoers. It's often kinda frustrating how often people never go to try the good stuff even when they say they're fed up with mainstream entertainment. Interesting, personally I have no interest in live action western films to seek them out, If the same story were told in Japanese and anime form vs live action and directed by a wes anderson, I'm taking the anime. MarinBlue said: CordobezEverdeen said: Besides unlike western shows that will often get shutdown because they arent cash cows, anime's and manga/wha are entirely focused in making revenue. Charming stories that don't sell a shit ton of toys and blurays from ep 1 are doomed to die. Talent is not rewarded so why in the world they would try to make a coherent decently written story when they can just generate trash that gets them da money. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending OP. I believe their opinion on western media is unfounded and ignorant and this is coming from someone who loves anime. (even some of those people would see as bad XD) But I don't entirely understand your point. Western cartoons like the Thunder Cats reboot, The original Teen Titans, and Young Justice series remembered for their well written stories and developed characters were cancelled prematurely because they didn't sell enough toys while shows such as Teen Titans Go a show hated for it's bad humor and obnoxious characters has made it to 255 episodes and even a theatrical film and is still going strong because it sells. I don't understand where you're coming from with this. Western animation cancels charming series too soon as well. With any industry, money comes first. If any project that doesn't meet expectations with profit from the get go are in hot water. Why are you making like this is an anime exclusive issue? (I hope I'm not coming off as rude or as if I'm trying to start an argument. That is not my intention in the slightest I just find some of what you said as confusing ^^;) "ignorant" woah dude it's almost like people can have different opinions, fuck outta here with that. It's not ignorant or unfounded and my OP explains all my steps in logic, you're the one who sounds quite ignorant. Grekinski said: It depends on what you prefer, because good and bad are concepts that depend on your perspective. Maybe you've consumed a lot fiction, both japanese and western and still prefer japanese. Both of them are equal in portraying topics, but the way the handled them is different. Japanese fiction is mostly dialogue driven, while most of the western fiction is action driven. Which is why, you can feel that something is more realistic than the other. I agree with this 1000 percent, great way to sum up Ehta said: You know, in the end, it just comes down to taste. People seem to be comparing Live action American moves/shows and anime. How stupid can you be? One is live action, the other is animation. They each have limits on what they can protray and each have a certain charm. You can't find a show like Kaiji(plz tell me, if you do know of one), and you can't find a show like Euphoria(not the best example). Another thing seperating these two is the cultures. Obviously. If America remade kaiji, it'd be different. If Japan remade euphoria it would be different. So what's better? That's your opinion. As for my opinion, I prefer anime. always nice to meet another individual of culture on this forum ee_tramboliko said: just no dude. i always liked western cinema better than it's japanese counterpart, comparing of course the GOOD movies, aka lynch's weird ass films, ingmar bergman's, and even some newer stuff, like gaspar noe's and darren aranofky's, for example. those are all directors known for more artistic efforts, rather than trashy marvel adaptations, or something starring dwayne johnson. a lot of this media has influenced anime as well, like twin peaks (which by the way was huge in japan) with surreal 90's shows like lain or boogiepop phantom. anime lately has been feeling... lackluster. all the risks director's took in the 90's and 2000's that made it so much more interesting compared to western animation suddenly changed to cheap knockoffs of already existing trash, still trying to hang off that shade of worldwide glory they got in the past decade. japanese animation was always plagued by shitty direction, awkward dialogues and overall shitty writing, but lately it's been getting much worse. i guess it might have to do with the poor working conditions of animators in japan, that honestly can't allow proper artistic expression, turning the medium no better than cheap western romance tv novels. whatever, i just hope the nips get their heads outta their asses and start making good shows again. I respect your opinion and enjoyed reading your criticism, however it will be a "just yes dude" from me. johnbradshaw said: aditya47 said: lol buddy just checked your list which comprises of 95%popular stuff (60days worth anime)so it's no surprise you find it better than hollywood. I think it's easy to get someone hooked till 100days worth anime(Japanese are the best/anime rules phase).Most Veterans will agree with me on this (100-200days he will be like it's average)and after 200+ that's tough then the person would have to wait for year to find something enjoyable(and yes i don't mean watchable). Myanimelist shows 300 airing anime atm ; you haven't watched a fraction of those to compare then with currently airing movies in hollywood. now for hollywood movies i suggest you to complete imdb top 250 first .i watched 80% of them then switched to anime watching(i have watched 700+ hollywood movies and that's a low estimate) .approximately i get a movie worth watching once a year if i'm lucky ; the last movie that i enjoyed was Green book (2018). for anime i think i'll topout at 200days worth ; i have huge respect for the people who have watched more than 200days. tl;dr hollywood still is top dog .jap anime comes in a solid 2nd spot for now as Chinese anime could take them probably in a few decades. What you're comparing is pretty invalid to be honest. You compare Hollywood movies to Japanese's anime (which consist of TV shows more than anything movies can offer) and telling him Hollywood still top dog. And with the path the Chinese is taking right now, I don't see them overtaking Japanest until I die. They produced the same old shows that their dramas and historical have made forever. thank you for pointing out the flawed logic, saved me some time typing. Koji_AmpedASH said: Ok let me count how many western story telling "I have seen" that is good vs how many Japanese are good that "I have seen" JAPANESE InuYasha Neon Genesis Evangelion Macross Senran Kagura (yes its ecchi but actually has a good story lol) Kannazuki no miko Yami to boushi Devilman Kidou Senkan Nadesico Now as for western story telling Silverwing harrypotter Transformers Armada Bladerunner The starwars prequels and original trilogy The giver So in my experience Japan beats the west, even though the west has larger population and therefor should really produce more good stories then Japan does, but the west does not leading me to conclude that Japanese culture produces better stories Inuyasha and Eva in your top list? Wow, wanna be friends? Hardly hear people mention Inuyasha these days :(. Agree on your points as well HotPocketChris said: in the cartoon department, definately. but in actual shows? ehhh its tied i guess? some of my favorite shows are western shows as well, (breaking bad, GoT Season 1-4) Anime*** department And even live shows, I'm taking Japan. J dramas and J films are just next level storytelling. YossaRedMage said: Like hell am I actually reading the comments in this thread. The anti-weebs are probably out in full force. OP is right though. Western media is, for the most part, artistically bankrupt, mostly due to social political influence and agendas. Fact is, the closest thing the west has ever had to the kind of open-minded, liberated, artistically expressive space that manga/anime/VN/LN represents is with the 20th century comics boom, and I think otaku media has long since surpassed that. I always bring up Evangelion as a good example of a story that just wouldn't get told in the west. I'm not raising it up on a pedestal as some tend to do, only gave it an 8 myself, but it makes for a good example that most people have seen. Eva combines elements that just wouldn't get combined in western media. On the one hand it's about adolescents piloting giant robots and fighting off weird space aliens in colorful, loud, bombastic fights, but on the other hand it's a serious character study based around deep themes of depression and isolation which are woven with great care in to the narrative. Eva gives us an entire episode of the former, before indulging in a long, slow, quiet, brooding segment. Honestly, I think a big part of it is how judgmental the west is. People just can't accept strange, different things. That's why I love anime fans. Even the ones with the most vanilla, mainstream taste in anime at least have an open enough mind to explore this strange foreign media. If there's one thing I seriously can't stand, it's narrow-minded persepctives on how story-telling should be, or what good art is full stop. When people put restrictions on expression, it angers me. Because I like to see things that explore new ground, that do things differently, that have no pretention but rather just want to tell a story without outside influence, a story that comes from a place within, rather than without. facts hurt and many people struggle to accept facts. Instead of getting mad at me, go try to write some unique screenplays lol. Thanks for the comment fam. no longer a mistake, it's you actively wanting to read and hoping to see something that confirms your bias. GarLogan78 said: Definitely disagree. I think anime does many things western media isn't doing, and does a lot of things better. But to argue that storytelling is better....nah. The sheer diversity of western storytelling makes it more rich than anime to me. You can watch TV shows or films about so many different experiences, in so many different genres. This is generalizing a bit, but anime is like...90% high school characters in a club (or approx high school aged characters doing something). Where is the anime about moms or dads or single parents? About minorities living in Japan? About gay or lesbian people? About adults in general? Anime barely begins to tap into any of the demographics Western media normally makes stories about, and I think that is really limiting. nope, anime is just as diverse as live action, it's just the anime YOU watch. Anime is just a medium with dozens of genres. Ericonator said: It's much better yeah, there'a a reason why I almost never watch live action stuff. same here, live action just can't convey that same emotion that anime can. |
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Superns18 said: [ GarLogan78 said: Definitely disagree. I think anime does many things western media isn't doing, and does a lot of things better. But to argue that storytelling is better....nah. The sheer diversity of western storytelling makes it more rich than anime to me. You can watch TV shows or films about so many different experiences, in so many different genres. This is generalizing a bit, but anime is like...90% high school characters in a club (or approx high school aged characters doing something). Where is the anime about moms or dads or single parents? About minorities living in Japan? About gay or lesbian people? About adults in general? Anime barely begins to tap into any of the demographics Western media normally makes stories about, and I think that is really limiting. nope, anime is just as diverse as live action, it's just the anime YOU watch. Anime is just a medium with dozens of genres. Okay. Please list a a few anime that depict what I was claiming was underrepresented? I wasn't saying anime lacked "genres". I know there is magical girl, idol, drama, romance, sci-fi, other world, coming of age, sports, etc. What I was emphasizing was that the vast majority of these stories are told through the lens of high school students and that more diverse POV are very rarely seen in anime. |
syncrogazer said: Ryuk9428 said: 100 days requires you to watch a relatively high percentage of all the anime that is out there. Given the person I'm responding to have 555 completions and 150 days of anime watched. Let's cut out 1/3 of the completions. That gives us about 375 completions. That's close to 2.5% of all the anime that's ever been produced according the MALgraphs. But I suspect most people, if they were to just randomly watch whatever happens to be on TV, would not enjoy most of what they are watching and would consider it a chore. The main reason you enjoy it is by selecting what you specifically want. This means that if you've watched 1 out of 40 animes, you have probably seen all the animes out there that would appeal or connect to you the most. For this reason, I would not be surprised if most people's mean score goes down the more animes they have completed because they aren't running into nearly as many shows that connect to them the way the first shows they watched did. So, basically just a huge assumption on your part that after a certain amount of time is spent on something a person will eventually get bored of it. A mundane observation that's nowhere near the same as someone having 'watched all of the good stuff' (whatever that means exactly). And this is all assuming that taste is unchanging and that they have awesome powers which enables them to only select stuff they'll like right from the start based on that, or that they can only properly connect to their earliest experiences... Personally, I don't see myself 'running out of anime' anytime soon. I said you'll be out of the best stuff likely. You're not going to encounter many 9s and 10s anymore after being in the community long enough to watch 100 days worth of anime. And, generally, people do get bored as a result of overexposure. How high your love for something is will make it so you can enjoy something more before getting bored but it will happen eventually if you expose yourself to it enough. If you ate pizza for lunch and dinner every day for a month you would probably get bored of it even if you love pizza and even if you tend to eat the same foods a lot. |
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GarLogan78 said: Superns18 said: [ nope, anime is just as diverse as live action, it's just the anime YOU watch. Anime is just a medium with dozens of genres. Okay. Please list a a few anime that depict what I was claiming was underrepresented? I wasn't saying anime lacked "genres". I know there is magical girl, idol, drama, romance, sci-fi, other world, coming of age, sports, etc. What I was emphasizing was that the vast majority of these stories are told through the lens of high school students and that more diverse POV are very rarely seen in anime. Hell, even tense slime is told from the perspective of a 40 year old salaryman. Again, there are TONNES of anime, manga and LN's that are told form the perspective of older people. A cool one I was just talking to someone about earlier is about a guy who works his way up the corporate ladder from entry level to CEO. It's just that these stories don't get as popular as the high school POV ones you mention. Browse around Animate if you live in Japan or whatever japanese bookstore you have in your country and explore some of the manga, you'll learn a lot. Also, I was told you can edit replies to include new replies and quotes, however when I go to quick edit and click "quote" under a post I want to reply to, it starts a new reply and does not add to the existing one, heads up to the mods |
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| Nah. The west has got some good stuff. |
Once you realize that what others think about what you enjoy doesn't matter, you will finally be free |
ee_tramboliko said: MarinBlue said: I have severe doubts that if put into their shoes you would have more satisfactory results than them. i really understand the amount of work they go through, for such a low salary. remember that guy from madhouse who was hospitalized after work 200+ hours overtime? yeah, sorry i can't respect that. specially if some "famous" voice actor or a half assed director take all the goddamn money. and you can't just go "but this is how the industry works", because it's just plain wrong man. you bet i wouldn't have better results than they do, i'd resign in the first week. i don't really care if old or new anime is better, these people are obviously working for a project they don't care about because they've got no other choice. if you want to be an animator in japan, you better get used to drawing the same scene over and over again. how can you be passionate about that? it's not like they have any say besides just drawing the damn frames. but if they want to animate, they've got no other choice. i can't blame them, honestly. I didn't say to respect the poor work ethics. Goodness no, I hate it as much as you do. I was trying to say that it isn't right to insult the people working on the anime. They're only doing what they're being told to do. (Especially calling them that word, c'mon dude that wasn't cool.) I can't really agree with none of them caring part either. A lot of people (including animators) in the industry do care about their work from what I can see at least. I can see your point however that many likely do feel that way. I agree going "but this is how the industry works" isn't good. Change does need to happen, but this raises the question of what can be done? We can't do anything to change the unjust work ethics. This isn't an exclusive anime issue. Japan has a culture around making people work themselves to their very limits. There is a real word there for people who have worked themselves to death. So in order to change that glaring issue with the anime industry, the overwork culture would have to be dealt with first yet none of us even live in that country. So really what can any of us do about it? :( (I hope this makes sense by the way. I hope I did not come off as hostile in anything I've said, for that is not my intent.) |
| A treasure the color of the rainbow, the color of happiness |
| Both sides have some great stories and lots of bad ones. Nigerian films are superior to both tho |
Superns18 said: GarLogan78 said: Okay. Please list a a few anime that depict what I was claiming was underrepresented? I wasn't saying anime lacked "genres". I know there is magical girl, idol, drama, romance, sci-fi, other world, coming of age, sports, etc. What I was emphasizing was that the vast majority of these stories are told through the lens of high school students and that more diverse POV are very rarely seen in anime. Hell, even tense slime is told from the perspective of a 40 year old salaryman. Again, there are TONNES of anime, manga and LN's that are told form the perspective of older people. A cool one I was just talking to someone about earlier is about a guy who works his way up the corporate ladder from entry level to CEO. It's just that these stories don't get as popular as the high school POV ones you mention. Browse around Animate if you live in Japan or whatever japanese bookstore you have in your country and explore some of the manga, you'll learn a lot. I agree that if you open it up to manga and novels it changes things. I was more thinking about anime vs western television. I would argue that Slime isn't /about/ a 40-year old salaryman though, since after episode one he is just living in an isekai. It honestly is comparing apples and oranges and there really is no right answer. It just comes down to preference. I also have been experiencing burnout and after seeing 800+ entries, nothing feels fresh anymore. Meanwhile in western media, almost every season there is /some/ show that feels like something I have never seen before, and I find that really interesting and easy to engage with. |
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