Bringing outsiders into the medium.

HungryForQuality said:
If you're into Asimov and want to watch something that makes great use of its time and doesn't have its head up its ass, then I recommend Eve No Jikan.

On a less biased note, Moribito would be my go-to. It's a normal fantasy show with basically no anime tropes. Has some interesting dynamics in it. No one would be put off by it definitely. I had kinda mixed feelings on this show but that doesn't matter in this thread.

Pullman said:
Personally I would first try to convince anime fans themselves that the terrible preconceived notions that they have about anime and its fans are responsible and need to be fixed before we try to improve our reputation for the mainstream.

"I like anime but I'm ashamed to talk about it to even my family because it's such am embarassing hobby!"

"Anime is trash an so am I."

"Lol we're using the derogatory 'weeb' as a synonym of anime fan or otaku now because that's how little we respect ourselves and our hobby. But really, fucking normies and their prejudices. I wonder where they get the idea that we're all degenerate 'weebs'..."

"Anime fans irl are cringe except for me ofc, I'm the only normal one. Because I hide it and nobody knows I like anime. Being open about it is cringe as fuck."

"Anime is a cool and mature medium but only if you watch the shows I like. If you like battle shounen/slice of life/edyg seinens/whatever I don't want to be associated with you and that's why I hide being an anime fan. It's the fault of everyone but me that anime has such a childish/perverted/whatever reputation."



I've seen too many variations of shit like that to still have any sense of pity of victimhood when it comes to anime fans. I'm gonna worry about what outsiders think (I never really encountered even half as much negative towards anime fans from non-anime fans btw) once the actual anime 'fans' stop their self-deprecating, self-victimizing attitudes and own their hobby like anyone else does. You can't expect to be respected when you don't respect yourself and your fellow anime fans first.

HungryForQuality said:


We shouldn't. I actually think some anime tropes are what keeps the medium lively. It's why I like it! For all the strengths Moribito has it comes off as boring and plain in the second half after the initial hook loses its luster and gives way to a less compelling plot. The characters also are rather rigid. I'm just saying that newcomers might not think the same way as we do and might want something that's like Legend of Korra or Avatar: The Last Airbender. So that's where that example was coming from.

I mean an anime with anime tropes that I personally love was Girls' Last Tour. I thought it was fascinating. I still watch a couple episodes now and then to look into it more and I've found connections I didn't make before. But newcomers would look at the chibi faces and walk out so fast. Which sucks but it's true for many.

Manaban said:
But yeah, fuck introducing people to anime if it's going to involve reducing them down to being this sort of image as the most mainstream, western-oriented consumer and then tailoring recs around that. Fuck recs in general if it's stemming from a place of selfishness like that, that's the sort of thing that should be about them and built about them, not trying to decide the most general means of trying to proselytize your fucking hobby to people.

Always hated this question and topic >_>

Greyleaf said:
A lot of times, they think that all anime is a bunch of fighting and yelling, or over-sexualized characters

Greyleaf said:

Jesus Christ, dude. Why the aggression? I've never gone out of my way to push my hobbies on others if I didn't think it was something they would enjoy. The people I've exposed to anime now either love it, or are at least open to watching an anime film/series from time to time. The question stemmed from the fact that I was re-introduced to anime by another individual, and now it's my favorite form of entertainment. What's so wrong with trying to share that with others if you think they might like it?

Ryuk9428 said:


If they might like it then sure, go ahead and introduce them to it. A friend of mine was the one who introduced me to anime, I think that's because he knew I was open to things that might be "alternative," so to speak, though. But I think I kind of got the impression that some people here are like trying to prove how great anime is to people who are being resistant or think its weird and honestly if they are so shallow that they won't try something they might like because its "weird" then there's no point trying to prove anything to them.

Greyleaf said:
Well the issue with this statement is that I was a rather closed-off "normie" myself before a friend of mine had introduced me to Cowboy Bebop. I fell in love with it, and jumped down the rabbit hole soon after. Now I'm not advocating that anyone push their beliefs regarding anime on people who are being extremely resistant to it, but I think there are other individuals out there who might end up enjoying the medium if they had the proper introduction.

EndlessMaria said:

Is Cowboy Bebop really that good? I tried to get into it a few times but I could never make it past the first few episodes since I found it boring.

jal90 said:

And that's quite an issue I have. Whey should we hide anime tropes? We are trying to get people into anime and that includes introducing to its own cultural sensibilities and approaches, not trying to disguise them with conveniently washed out stuff.

I would certainly recommend certain shows that don't have or barely have common anime tropes (like Cowboy Bebop is just amazing and cool and of course I'd talk people into it), but rather due to their quality and not as a means to convert people into anime. Tropes are not something we should pretend they don't exist to attract newcomers, rather the contrary.

Vluddipijjun said:


Why should we defend the tropes, exactly? If the goal is to bring outsiders in, wouldn't one be better off giving them good work that happens to be anime (like Bebop) rather than very anime work that happens to be good? I feel you'll have a lot easier time catching someone's imagination with potential than trying to assuage their distaste of anime's downsides.

Vluddipijjun said:


Why should we defend the tropes, exactly? If the goal is to bring outsiders in, wouldn't one be better off giving them good work that happens to be anime (like Bebop) rather than very anime work that happens to be good? I feel you'll have a lot easier time catching someone's imagination with potential than trying to assuage their distaste of anime's downsides.

Greyleaf said:
I personally find it better to ease others into it, rather than having them jump head first into the perturbing side of anime and saying "better embrace it all right here and now." That's not how it works, lol.

Manaban said:

You cannot convince somebody to get into Dystopian Sci-Fi as a genre if you pick works to show them that skirt a lot of the shared setups, actions, and constructs found within these works. You cannot convince somebody to get into fantasy as a holistic entity by showing them something completely removed from its contemporaries as how they'll be touching base with the genre.

The same is being applied to anime in this instance. Do we want to get them into one anime, or anime as a medium? If it's the latter that people going, showing them a work that's totally removed from the majority of its contemporaries is doing little more than giving them a false impression of what they'll be in for. They aren't getting into "anime." They're getting into an exception, something totally different from what they've established that they dislike.

Either that, or good luck trying to get somebody to cling to their distaste for tropes so heavily and then explore the medium with that pre-determination in mind. They'll be extremely limited from the outset because nobody tried to combat their closed-mindedness to these elements to ever approach them properly or in any way productive without just continuing down the same sort of path that people in this thread seem so fearful of.

Vluddipijjun said:


There's some validity in what you're saying, though getting someone into the whole medium as you put it kind of entails a certain trashiness depending on how readily you goad them to accept tropes. If I was getting a friend into action movies, for instance, telling them to watch a cut-and-dry explosion fest is probably the most representative and concise way to treat them to the lowest common denominator of action as a genre, though this either confirms their suspicions of how braindead action movies are or leads them to adopt action for action's sake, rather than looking at what in action they like.

Grizzziff said:
@pullman & @greyleaf restoring my faith in the threads

♪♫ SIDE NOTE ♫♪

When I call my favorite genre trash harems, its cause they are a little trashy. I always express my fondness for the comedic trope fests in the same breath. ♥

I have been an (oddly derogatory sounding) "casual" fan, for a long time. Having random affairs with anime experiences but never really diving into the medium. What kept me out of it, is what is keeping a lot people out, THE FANS! Even if you can get past the cartoons are for kids ideation, and explain that anime is not this one size fits all format. There will always be that final hurdle, THE FANS!!

I am going to tell this story once again. If you so choose to read about my recent anime fan interaction ..



So not just over this incident but along with the other countless examples, I have come to believe a lot anime fans suck ass. They do not know how to be social, or behave. They are repugnant, and they justify it with a false anti-conformist hierarchy. Individuals don't want to end up being counted as one of them; so they stay away. I am super guilty about not openly broadcasting my fandom for the same reason. Most of my anime fan encounters have been unpleasant; so I don't really blame myself. This truly is a shame, cause anime is a wonderfully diverse entertainment format, with just about something for everyone. People are missing out.

I will confess, one of my goals is to bring more people to this wonderful medium. Not to sound like an evil villain, but I would like to bring masses so extreme, that the shit heads get flushed into obscurity, and become anecdotal instead of the stereotypical standard. Even if its just one positive interaction at a time, any growth is good growth. Also, if I were a degenerate fan, I wouldn't be offended by this. Whats good for the goose is good for the degenerate elitist human obstacle after all.




AND TO YOUR QUESTION: I always recommend movies. Especially now. They don't require such a commitment at first. Koe No Katatchi is gold for this, and a lot of great series have recap films.

Manaban said:

And again, what you're fighting against wasn't making the argument of "show them a cut-and-dry explosion fest that's the most concise way to treat them to the lowest common denominator" and that seems clear as day from where I'm standing, given that it was explicitly stated.

Nobody said to throw people into the deep end right away, to introduce them to "trashiness" or anything like that. If anything, there was nothing short of an absolute willingness to try to accommodate these things and show them something a bit removed from what they'd perceive to be the most bog-standard trope-fest. It's just the mere idea of trying to get into somebody into anime as a whole while playing willfully ignorant of these elements is totally dishonest. In the realm of a singular series or show, sure, it'd be totally irrelevant - but that's not what the discussion is being centered around.

Trying to argue it on these grounds is more or less blatantly misrepresenting the argument coming from that side and trying to shove things into an extremity. It's strawmanning, if that's how you're going to try to combat "don't hide the tropes from people."

The rest of your post is pretty anecdotal and I don't give a shit about it, frankly. It's nice, but I just don't give a care about you as a person, what's best for you in terms of getting into the medium, and what's best for people like you and how you'd want to apply your own approach to them. I just don't like how it feels like their arguments have a valid point to them and they're ostensibly being twisted and misrepresented in some weird-ass attempt to combat any acceptance of tropes.

Vluddipijjun said:


Well, I'm willing to listen; What is a better balance? I figured Bebop was a good example in that the person I first quoted listed it as an example of a good introductory show and I agree completely, though for a variety of reasons it's not super representative of the medium as a whole (the location is not in Japan, more than likely you'll be introducing them to the dub rather than the sub, other than Ed very few characters are very 'anime pulpy', etc.). What's something you'd advise as being more geniune?

Manaban said:

That's something I've never thought of nor do I really have much intention to, honestly. I dislike the entire notion of trying to get people into the medium holistically, no matter where or how people want to do it (which does include the ways of the people I'm "defending" here just because I dislike the fundamental concept of it) and I believe it should be something totally self-determined on their part. Or at the very least, if a recommendation should be made, it should be an single series that you know aligns with them well on a personal/individual level. That goes for trying to show other anime fans anime that I like as well, of course - it just seems like good etiquette for trying to show people new media in general.

I just dislike the mere idea of rejecting tropes and standard constructs as an element of trying to introduce somebody to the medium, especially with the ways that it was being countered.

Vluddipijjun said:
Fair enough. From that, though, the next thing that interests me is what you personally draw from anime as a medium that you can't get elsewhere, which is probably the key difference in what we see as the optimal approach.

Me aside, what do you really draw on from anime that makes you choose it over different mediums?

Manaban said:

Ecchi, fanservice, cute girls, fun stuff like that. It's the main thing I care about and it's the primary reason why I pop up for anything on this site anymore, to administrate the club for it and to sparingly wander in threads and end up fighting the whole world over it. Anything else is a secondary interest and I'm fairly open to what else can be offered, but I wouldn't say those are things that definitively draw me towards anime over any other medium.

Vluddipijjun said:

I appreciate the honest answer, though if I may suggest, in a way with as little feather ruffling as possible, that maybe you defend the broader idea of anime as medium, tropes and all, out of bias of enjoying those aspects of it?

Vluddipijjun said:
I'm not big on them, so ecchi and fanservice drifting into a show I picked up for story is normally a buzzkill for me, though would it turn you off to a cute girl series if the story or characters suddenly got deeper?*

Manaban said:

The likelihood is about the same as you advocating disregarding these elements due to having an open dislike for them. Meaning that, no, I don't appreciate being accused of bias in this instance on the basis of what I like. It completely disregards any point I've made thus far in favor of what's (ostensibly) building this narrative of blindly defending something.

Or, another way to look at it is that I'm rather open in my contempt for trying to introduce people to anime as a medium in general, and yet I'm defending an aspect of it from what I perceive as unfair criticism. It'd be a major conflict of interest to defend one way of doing this from scorn from another way whenever I hold the main idea that both are discussing in contempt on a fundamental level.



Yeah, the idea repulses me. It sounds pretentious and unnecessary - and I would fear that such a series could very easily delve into coming from a place of spite towards the primary demographic at that - but more importantly, I don't watch these shows for thematic analysis or philosophical ponderings and that has extremely little to do with what makes me want to watch one in the first place. It is not something I would actively seek out to watch.

Ryuk9428 said:
Imagine if anime suddenly got infested with hardcore misandrist feminism, SJW propaganda, and if all the ecchi fanservice kind of stuff was eliminated because of that? One of the reasons I like anime a lot compared to US television right now is because I don't feel like half the characters and storylines are just SJW propaganda being shoved down my throat. Anime gives the writers more creative storytelling power, and one major part of that is because they aren't being suffocated by Hollywood political correctness.

Vluddipijjun said:


I'm not trying to pin you into anything. In fact, it seems unlikely to you from my perspective that I can look past elements I openly dislike, though that's not necessarily true. Evangelion has its share of fanservice and generic 'anime goodness' for a stretch, though it remains amoungst my favorites since the story and characters are so deep to me. Similarly, you might put up with some introspection from a cute anime so long as it's in service to making the show cute or doesn't detract from it. I'll be honest though, I love the idea of a bait and switch cutesy show with contempt for its erstwhile 'primary demographic,' so if you have any in mind let me know, since I might get a kick out of them.

I'm not saying your argumentation is invalid or blinded by bias, but merely perhaps influenced by it. It's not disingenuous to try to introduce someone to anime whilst avoiding ecchi, fanservice, and tropes if you're trying to cherry pick shows on basis of another standard of success. That's where I'd say you have a bias in favor of those aspects, since it seems wrong to you to try to avoid those aspects when introducing a new viewer to anime, to which I'm open to remonstration if I've misrepresented your viewpoint.



Unrelated to the above line of discussion, but this is perhaps a more spooky outcome than the genre devolving entirely into a cult of fanservice and ecchi. If you're into slippery slopes Ryu, you could say the con scene is picking up more of those Western values you wish to see remain isolated from anime. That's a discussion for another day though.