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Feb 9, 2019 6:33 PM
#201
@Psajdak modern ones still look too shiny for me, too plastic, they don't feel as real as their older counterparts :P |
Feb 9, 2019 6:40 PM
#202
:/ Anyway, there was once a time, when old school anime ruled the MAL... 2009, for many the Golden Age of MyAnimeList. |
Feb 9, 2019 6:47 PM
#203
Arrrrgh, crud, I got called out. BRB reading the entire thread Psajdak said: I disagree about either the old or the new being better, in both these cases. They just seem like different styles.Well, you can't deny that some things have really improved over time... Before: After: Before: After: Johan said: I think that's physically impossible.Deathko said: @Johan I can but I suspect you'll just curl up in a ball, shove your fingers in your ears and throw a tantrum. Wanna try? I suspect i've watched more anime on a single friday night than you ever will in your entire life. If you know a time machine dealer please be sure to share. Maneki-Mew said: I think my favorite style is roughly from the mid/late '00s. I'll watch stuff from other eras, but art style definitely contributes to the likelihood I pick something up.Visuals are very important to me as well. I know, it sounds superficial, but there are anime, which might good, but their art style look horrible to me, some like Clannad and others. I also don't like many art styles from the 80s and 90s, others, on the other hand, are love. Cowboy Bebop looked great and I love these handdrawn styles, if they look like this. And ofc many anime have a lot of individuality in their style, even if they look similar to each other, but there are trends too. And either you like them or not. AstZero said: Because people on the internet like to argue. And complain. And bash things they don't like.Why does AD feel the need to answer already answered questions a hundred times over? ThatRazorGuy said: This is pretty much the basis of any argument that relies on "there was more detail in older anime". More detail doesn't necessarily mean better or more enjoyable, though if visual detail happens to be your thing, then naturally you'd enjoy the visuals of older series more.I feel like a big part of it has to do with how, for lack of a better term, "flat" a lot of older anime looks on the surface. Digital lighting and shading in animation have come a long way and can make shots look more multidimensional than in a number of older shows. Another point that's closely related to this is the fact that digital art really changed a lot of how the art is done. For example, smooth shapes have become a lot easier to animate/manipulate, whereas stuff before digital art tended to use squiggles and irregular shapes a lot more, because it's easier to do that by hand. Neither is inherently better, but which one one prefers is largely just a matter of taste. The squiggles do tend to contribute to the feeling of visual detail though. Rei366 said: This thread lacks sufficient MP to summon him.Where is the guy named @Pullman ? Isn't he supposed to appear and use one of his pre-made answers when people starts summoning "quality" in old VS new "debates? Deathko said: Hahahaha, lol @ this thread.Because the social argument was brought way less often than "technology objectively made old anime art obsolete and I have no argument but EVERYBODY knows this so it's obvious and not up to debate LOL you have Haibane Renmei in favs you elitist scum" And even if their stance on anime art's quality relative to age had any substance and arguments to back it up... So what? Better watch any shiny turd than a not-so-pretty looking masterpiece of a story? ^___- But yeah. The internet likes to argue. Now, tell me, which of these is more gratifying to say? * "It depends on a variety of factors; the art appears to have more detail because it was easier to make art of a style that emphasized visual detail, and animation techniques have changed from hand-drawn to computer-animated to varying extents, but there's ways to do both well and badly, and besides it also depends on stories, and also a number of other factors such as episode length, and above all it's just a matter of taste." * "Newer anime suck monkey shit! I can't believe anyone wants to watch a pile of turds with no detail! Anime fans today are are hopeless sacks of crap." Deathko said: Oh gosh there are so many old anime that no one talks about anymore.As a last note, people who watch anime only mention classic to casuals because they never heard of Iria or Area 88 or 11 Nin iru ^^ |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Feb 9, 2019 7:11 PM
#204
I actually don't care what year an anime is made as long as the story and character development is good. I grew up on watching (and still do) old black and white American cartoons from the early years of animation so I'm not picky. The only thing that stands out to me like a sore thumb in both classics and modern anime is that some studios do not choreograph actions scenes properly (probably due to budget restrictions or time) which leaves them rough and kinda hard to watch cause it leaves you thinking "Wow this would've been amazing if done right" and that is disappointing imo. |
"What has two arms, two legs, and is alive? Not your favorite character lol! xD" |
Feb 9, 2019 8:03 PM
#205
but like seriously I'll never understand why bother with what other people are watching. like never |
[url=https://myanimelist.net/profile/mifti] [/url] |
Feb 9, 2019 8:09 PM
#206
I used to be just like what OP said. Until I decided to start watching "Monster". That totally blew away my bias towards animation styles. Am totally relieved this realization happened. If not, I would have missed other great but old ones like "One Outs", "Planetes" and "Great Teacher Onizuka" |
Best ending line in anime history = "My name is Saiki Kusuo. I am a psychic." |
Feb 9, 2019 8:23 PM
#207
i too kinda Used to avoid old anime but..i actually cant remember if i did xd cowboy bebop, trigun, great teacher onizuka,Vandread , i dont rly care if its old or not anymore as long as its interesting xd the animation styles rly r different so different that i actually like them for being different. cuz its a change of phase from the current animation style going around even the voice acting and ost used is very different xd |
TheDiabolicEsperFeb 9, 2019 11:47 PM
Feb 9, 2019 10:05 PM
#208
Rei366 said: MP is short for "magic points" or "mana points", a resource often used in video games to cast magic spells, such as summoning spells. I just posted a jokey "reason" why Pullman hadn't been "summoned".@GlennMagusHarvey Sorry but what's an "MP" in this context? The most satisfying sentence (as a reader or writer) is clearly the first one for me, but I am wrong, right? (Not sure what your second sentence means here.) |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Feb 9, 2019 11:01 PM
#209
I did give some old anime chance but drop them instantly. The most recent old anime I gave a chance are Macross and Record of Lodoss War. Drop both of them. |
It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person. |
Feb 10, 2019 12:02 AM
#210
DaCraziGuy said: Hey dude, I love ah my goddess but there plently of better scenes to pick if you wanted to make a point. LOL. I could have chosen the single best frame from the key animator, but I intentionally chose randomly a frame where both of them on screen. I didn't even intentionally chose that show, it was just the first 90s series I clicked on out of about the 150 pre-2000s series (excluding sequels) I have stashed at the moment. I think I made my point as intended by not cherrypicking. Btw further down I left a compilation of random older anime random screenshots. All of their artwork beat Kirei. |
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Feb 10, 2019 12:11 AM
#211
I think it’s the art and animation that is turning people off to old anime, simply because it’s outdated. I can find anime that can do a lot more with art, animation and sound than anime before 2010. It’s the same with music, nowadays you can do a lot more with music compared to the past. |
Feb 10, 2019 12:19 AM
#212
One reason a lot of people nowadays don't watch old shows is because they aren't "relevant." It's a big thing with newer anime fans, and even some veterans to want to keep up with the discussion and popular community of what other people are watching and talking about. Ergo, older shows inherently get watched less because they aren't being broadcast, people don't talk about them, even fewer people seek them out. I'm certain just the fact that the shows are "old" is a part of it, but it's also that they don't always fit in with the new internet communities in the way new shows do. |
Feb 10, 2019 12:29 AM
#213
We have gotten to the point where we can have more than two generations catfighting over which generation has better anime, this didn't happen back then so I'm guessing it's got to be at least as good as it used to be, we wouldn't have new fans if it wasn't. |
Feb 10, 2019 12:31 AM
#214
I mean I kind of get the animation thing and I understand why newer fans don’t gravitate towards older shows. Then again, I sometimes dislike how seasonal hype-train oriented everything is these days. When I became an anime fan sometime in 2012, stuff like Clannad,Haruhi, Elfen Lied, Death Note and Ouran Host club were among the most talked about things, newer shows were just slowly gaining more attention (with maybe SAO as an exception, and also some shows like Steins;Gate or Madoka became really popular in 2011 and 2012) Nowadays it just seems like most shows become completely obsolete the day they stop airing, even the ones that had lots of buzz. Very few series stand the test of time for even one year. ok, maybe I am exaggerating but I feel like some newer fans also refuse to watch older shows (some consider pre 2010 ancient as well) because they don’t want to miss the seasonal hype that comes with watching the newest shows. |
Feb 10, 2019 12:40 AM
#215
First page and you already have idiots saying the word "graphics" when talking about anime, I can't even People just don't know any better, here's their problem. You can't convince them unless they finally get bored of seasonal isekai #49593729 Btw HxH 1999 >>>>>>>>>> 2011, ESPECIALLY visually if you think otherwise you're an idiot who doesn't know shit about art of animation quality so please don't mention these words |
Feb 10, 2019 12:48 AM
#216
The second reply to this thread, should have been the last, instead of debating lul So who's the winner? @Deathko |
Feb 10, 2019 1:26 AM
#217
I just want to watch good stuff. there is good and bad old anime, there is good and bad new anime. |
Feb 10, 2019 1:32 AM
#218
Noone wins, because that's not the reason. Take this from someone who actually did a study for my university on the matter of why old shows are not watched by the newer generations despite being better and acclaimed. Actually I thought it was just about quality when I first started this, then I thought it was the subject matters. I didn't do only anime, it was way more focused on films, but for the sake of curiosity I also did pools on anime, tv shows, and animated films. Animated shows were the most impressive of all, since most of the newer generations didn't watch disney classics, and those have one of the best animation in history. The conclusion of this was, because of the pacing. Older shows have a slower pace, the newer generation likes instant gratification, older shows are slower, have more buildup, the dialogue is really really slow, people just get bored. It has nothing to do with the animation, or the aspect ratio and the lower resolution, or even the art styles, I mean, it's certainly connected to the animation, but the exact reason is pacing. Put those shows at 2x speed and they'll like it, otherwise forget it. And this applies to movies and normal tv shows as well, it's not a coincidence disney films picked up the pace, especially dialogue wise, the plots also move forward way faster than they did before. |
Feb 10, 2019 1:34 AM
#219
Or it's a lot simpler and they can't be bothered to invest the time and thought into something like Bebop, Evangelion or Utena. |
VorpalityFeb 10, 2019 2:04 AM
Feb 10, 2019 1:35 AM
#220
I mean yeah, the whole idea that new = automatically better is definitely one of the main reasons. If you grow up in the era of the Iphone where every 6 months a new model comes out and makes your older ones obsolete, and you're only cool if you always own the newest and bestest model, it's not hard to see that philosophy seep into other areas of their life where it is even less appropriate, like in regards to art and entertainment. Which leads to completely absurd and fact-free opinions like 'art is always better if it's newer' and whatnot. So yeah, I think that a lot of the younger generations have been 'brainwashed' into thinking being new is an inherent quality that makes something automatically superior, but if you actually think about it for a bit it's just not true. But you need people to think like that so you can keep selling them the same phones every 6 months for more money. It's the ideal mindset for consumerism and capitalism and those are the systems we live in so it's understandable people end up thinking like that if society constantly reinforces that idea. Albeit I think it's not too much to expect that they might realize that art and Iphones might not follow the same logic since they're different things. But I guess it is. I don't think that's very insightful at this point tho, and making a thread about it is just summoning a shitflinging fest towards old anime so I'm not too happy with this thread. I'm not even gonna bother reading any replies beyond the OP because it's just gonna be the same prejudices and misinformation and people not knowing what they're talking about in regards to animation and art. Some of the best looking anime exist in every decade since the 70s, which I know because I watch anime from every decade and all the people hating on old anime don't watch anything earlier than late 90s usually so it's just ignorance talking. There's no cure for ignorance. Also since people seem to expect some kind of copypasta, I can leave these two here regarding the reasons why people avoid and miss out on older shows: 1. There are pretty much the two reasons people miss out on good shows, superficiality and prejudice. Superficiality doesn't bother me as long as they're aware of it, but the clueless prejudices can really get annoying. A lot of people have no idea about animation and call any show with a shiny color palette 'well animated' while older Movies which often have objectively better animation than a lot of recent TV series (since Movies always tend to get higher budgets) apparently have 'shit' visuals simply because they are 'old'. Which brings me to the next issue: Randomly calling anime before year X old is some of the weirdest bullshit I've ever seen in any medium. When it's not uncommon to refuse to watch shows before 2010 or even 2012 anymore, that's just mind-numbingly stupid even if you are extremely superficial and only care about visuals. There's no way around it. The whole idea that the year of production has more to do with the visuals than the individual situation of that anime (like budget and production time and staff) is retarded. The decade may be relevant, but even that's a stretch since there are huge variations in budgets and animation quality in every decade. I've seen dozens of shows (well, mostly OVAs or Movies) from the 80s or 90s (or even older) that without a doubt have better and more fluid animation than a lot of the TV series nowadays. When combined with a 1080p BD remaster they can easily compete with anything the medium has to offer. The only(!) thing that has consistently changed without COUNTLESS exceptions is the color palette thanks to the switch from cel animation to digital animation, but if colors really are THE main and most important criteria for your enjoyment you might as well watch a colorful screensaver or watch Iblard Jikan 26 times instead of some 2-cour show with a story and characters that don't care about colors. So in the end I think the vast majority of those people are just gravely prejudiced and give 'old' (whatever year that is) anime basically no credit in the visual department for no other reason than having a random production year attached to them. That combined with the general human laziness when it comes to trying out anything new or unfamiliar leads to this 'I don't wanna hear about it' attitude and when put on the spot to say why they refuse to consider 'old' series they just make up some reasons on the spot. It wouldn't be so annoying if half the time it weren't the same people that whine about how 'normal' people look down on anime and don't even give it a chance just because it's animated/japanese and how people make fun of anime without knowing what it's really about etc... Then they go and do the same with 'old' anime simply because it's 'old'. In both cases people think they know something without ever really giving it a try, and judge it accordingly because it's the easy thing to do. But in reality animation CAN tell great and mature stories and old anime CAN look amazing, period, and unless you either accept that in both cases laziness is (or is not) a valid reason for not checking something out that you're unfamiliar with, you're a hypocrite. And I hate hypocrites. It's especially bad when they have some 'old' favorite anime that they probably watched before they started paying attention to the production year and then proceed to call them 'exceptions' for no other reason than having seen and liked them despite their age. But of course they still don't consider that tons of other 'old' anime could also be 'exceptions' since they adapted the 'new = better' policy at some point. Speaking of which, I also think the whole 'newer is always better' thought process is partly a symptom of the times we live in. Just take a look at how things are advertised. "You don't need to keep up with your old phone from 3 months ago but get the BRAND-NEW model today to get on the same level as your friends!!!" or some bullshit like that. Everything, everywhere constantly tells everyone that new = better and old = throw it away even if it's still usable (the best thing that can happen to old things is that they get recyled and turned into new things!). So yeah, I'm not blaming people for having these tendencies, I just blame them for never thinking twice about them but instead religiously believing in them. I've confronted tons of people that avoided older anime and usually it comes down to the deep-rooted belief that old has to be worse by default (at least when it comes to animation). It gets even more ridiculous when those statements leave the field of technicality (animation) and enter the field of arts (music and artstyles). Way too often have I encountered people who really thought that art or music has to be 'better' in new series simply because they are new and stuff gets 'better over time'. I'm not even gonna explain how stupid and detached from reality that assumption is because it should be self-explanatory. That's pretty much all I have to say about the topic after countless encounters with that type of fan. But there's one last thing I want to say using this post as an example for something I see often: [...]And people who have a problem with that need to understand that just because something they watched 10 years ago was AMAZING to them doesnt mean the next generation or someone who started watching anime recently because of something like Attack On Titan will enjoy it. PLEASE stop assuming that we love an old anime because we watched it 10 years ago. WE DON'T. We love them because we truly enjoy them from today's perspective, because we believe them to hold up to today's standards in all relevant aspects. Because we just think they are good. I've watched the vast majority of my pre 90s anime in the last 3 years and I love tons of them. Watching new anime is no reason to 'be unable to watch' old anime and saying old shows were only good when they aired is just ignorance. 2. Why do people prefer modern anime/media? (Reasons I've heard before): Well, there is an objective difference in black and white/color or silent/sound movies, but beyond that the vast majority of biases against older anime do not hold up when you have actual experience with the medium. Ugliness is hardly dependent on age, there are all kinds of artstyle in both new and old anime so just generalizing one as 'better' as the other in terms of artstyle is just silly. There isn't nearly enough consistency to generalize it like that in the first place. There is no reason to believe that the quality of artstyles in general have drastically improved over the last 20 or 30 years. There have been masterpiece paintings long before anime even existed. Art doesn't get better or worse, it comes in different shapes at any given time, even if there are certain trends. Low resolution is a factor for a lot of old anime, but there are also dozens if not hundreds out there that have remastered BD versions that give you all the hand-drawn glory of cel animation with the level of detail a 1080p resolution provides. And more are getting that treatment every year. In fact, those anime have true HD 1080p resolution because they are scanning the original drawings at that resolution for the remastered version, while almost any 1080p version of modern anime is simply an upscale and they're produced in only 720p. So if you have a hard-on for resolution, old anime should appeal to you more than modern ones. Slow pace should be obvious that this is something found in both old and new anime, just like the opposite. Old anime may have more series that are 50 episodes because that was more common back then compared to having lots of 1-cour teasers for the source material with the option for sequels which is the current trend. That can translate to a slower pacing, but it doesn't have to. In any case both trends have their pros and cons, but pacing isn't really one of them. Bad animation is the biggest myth of them all. If you know your shit you know that TV anime from the very start was very budget oriented so they could be affordable (Thanks, Tezuka) and the budget-saving techniques have only been refined over the years. But at the end of the day most tv anime still spend a lot of their time on stills or quasi-stills with mouthflaps and really good sakuga scenes are rare. Of course there are exceptions that have a higher density of great sakuga scenes (like One Punch Man or Space Dandy) or somehow have the fluidity of a movie despite being a TV series (Nichijou) but there are also old TV series that look really good in their remastered versions. Urusei Yatsura or Ashita no Joe for example. What has actually improved is mostly the amount of special effects and filters that can make things seem sparkly, exciting and whatnot, but that has little to do with actual animation of key frames since it's just additional layering via computer programs. And that's only speaking of TV series, a field where, in average, animation has improved slightly over the years (which doesn't mean there aren't old shows that can hold up to today's standards). The most important thing is be aware that TV anime still have very limited budgets and a decenty budgeted OVA or movie will almost always look better in terms of pure animation quality. That has always been that way, and an anime movie that had amazing animation in the 80s will still be better animated than 99% of all modern TV shows. Great animation movies are basically non-stop sakuga scenes which is something no TV series can afford. And lastly good animation is not just fluidity and amount of frames per second, it's also the ability to pay attention to details like conveying weight or momentum and other difficult things. Which again is not an ability bound to a certain decade, but rather dependent on the individual director/animator. So in my experience a lot of people who avoid older anime like the plague are full of misinformed prejudice and don't actually know why they are avoiding them so they make up reasons based on those popular prejudices instead of actually seeing for themselves and trying to figure out the actual reasons they don't like them (if there are any). It's just easy and safe to stick to what you know and that's understandable, but using that as a basis to just make everything old seem worse in all kinds of categories is an individual decision, not a justified, objective reason. And in general anyone who names an arbitrary year as the unbreakable border is someone I can't take very seriously because the assumption that there is any one particular year where everything changed alone just shows a lack of information and common sense. Even when anime visuals were undergoing a visable change in the early 2000 (and a bit before that), transforming from cel animation to a more cgi-oriented approach, it was an ongoing process that took at least half a decade, during which time there are hit and miss shows every year, some looking okay and some very ugly. |
I probably regret this post by now. |
Feb 10, 2019 2:32 AM
#221
There's a difference in how a story is told and presented in older shows that keeps people from watching it if the threshold of tolerating how older stuff looks iis somehow crossed. |
Feb 10, 2019 2:48 AM
#222
The reason why is because one, the art/visuals (character design, animation and background) are inferior to current art. Two every genre done in the past continues to be done now with better visuals, but the stories are synonymous. Three anime like "Evangelion, Inuyasha and let's say an old version of Gundam" are looked at as a prototype of a yet to be made better product, whether it's the story they change but keep the art/visuals or vice verse. For instance Inuyasha and Kyōkai no Rinne (they were both written by Rumiko Takahashi) but people are more likely to watch Rinne, because it's more recent. Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon Crystal is the same as the above example. Now don't hate me but I think this also applies Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Darling in the Franxx (however I am happy I watched both, since one hadn't come out yet) |
Feb 10, 2019 3:04 AM
#223
@zieek ...w-what? I'm not sure I understand your post. "Three anime like "Evangelion, Inuyasha and let's say an old version of Gundam" are looked at as a prototype of a yet to be made better product, whether it's the story they change but keep the art/visuals or vice verse. " ? I'm not sure NGE is considered the prototype of anything to come. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Feb 10, 2019 3:07 AM
#224
As someone who has been watching anime for over three decades, I can attest that both old and new shows have both trash and treasures, and it basically just depends on individual likes and dislikes. Anime style changes as trends, technology, and artists change throughout the years, and it will continue to change as the industry progresses; which is a good thing because it will keep anime relevant and help avoid stagnation. One thing about old anime that I do NOT miss from back in the day was nearly every weekly program's "stock footage" that we had to watch every episode to save the company time and money. Some shows still have it, but not nearly as much as back in the day. What I DO miss is being able to watch 52 episodes of something in a single year, as opposed to the current "watch 13 episodes and wait 3 years for 13 more episodes" shit. If they even bother to make another season at all. While some things have improved with time, others were better back in the golden days. |
AnnaSartinFeb 10, 2019 3:27 AM
Feb 10, 2019 3:18 AM
#225
zieek said: The reason why is because one, the art/visuals (character design, animation and background) are inferior to current art. Two every genre done in the past continues to be done now with better visuals, but the stories are synonymous. Three anime like "Evangelion, Inuyasha and let's say an old version of Gundam" are looked at as a prototype of a yet to be made better product, whether it's the story they change but keep the art/visuals or vice verse. For instance Inuyasha and Kyōkai no Rinne (they were both written by Rumiko Takahashi) but people are more likely to watch Rinne, because it's more recent. Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon Crystal is the same as the above example. Now don't hate me but I think this also applies Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Darling in the Franxx (however I am happy I watched both, since one hadn't come out yet) what a perfect example of what I was talking about. The random assumption that new = better, backed up by a bunch of made-up 'arguments' that don't make any sense and are for the most part even factually untrue. Noone knows about Rinne, it had some of the lowest viewer numbers on MAL of any seasonal ever while it aired. If anything the most famous and acclaimed Takahashi works are her oldest ones: Urusei Yatsura, Maison Ikkoku, maybe Ranma 1/2. I bet a million dollars more people would recognize these names than Kyoukai no Rinne. Same with Gundam. Zeta, the second oldest Gundam, is still widely considered to be one of the best ones by fans of the franchise. Not to mention the fantastic side story OVAs like War in the Pocket. You can find top-tier gundam shows in every decade pretty much. You could turn your whole argument on the head and say what came afterwards were just cheap clones lacking the originality and creativity that went into the older ones. But unlike you I know it's just as stupid. All these titles stand on their own and while you can relate to them in terms of influencing each other and whatnot, it is absurd to make any random assumptions about quality just based on age. But this is probably a waste of time. Feel free to stay ignorant and prejudiced if that's what makes you happy. Nothing wrong with preferring modern anime, but I just find it pathetic if you have to frame your preferences as if they were objective and logical and without a doubt 'correct' and not just purely subjective and most likely based on prejudices. |
I probably regret this post by now. |
Feb 10, 2019 3:19 AM
#226
@AnnaSartin "Last week in DBZ, blablabla" *opening* *Sangoku goes "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"* *Flashback about Gohan's childhood 100 eps earlier* "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" *Vegeta shakes in fear and gives us a 10 mins long speech about the villain* "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" *Next week in DBZ...* *ending* |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Feb 10, 2019 4:11 AM
#228
Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. |
Feb 10, 2019 4:12 AM
#229
FalcieGaiah said: Noone wins, because that's not the reason. Take this from someone who actually did a study for my university on the matter of why old shows are not watched by the newer generations despite being better and acclaimed. Actually I thought it was just about quality when I first started this, then I thought it was the subject matters. I didn't do only anime, it was way more focused on films, but for the sake of curiosity I also did pools on anime, tv shows, and animated films. Animated shows were the most impressive of all, since most of the newer generations didn't watch disney classics, and those have one of the best animation in history. You know that Disney regularly remasters classics and adds them to its catalog, right? They are still consumed. Even then, your statement is dumb and backwards because people who consume Disney are mostly kids. They don't have and they don't need to have cultural awareness, they consume stuff that is aired and relevant in the context they are in. You don't ask a 90s kid to watch the TV shows that were airing in the 70s, because they are difficult to get and because they don't resonate with them. Not like I disagree with the basics here but you are picking the wrong examples. There's plenty of people here who just refuse to watch old anime based on some arbitrary and dumb idea that newer is better, and Pullman has extended beyond belief on that so I can't add anything of substance. Among fellow film nerds I see this trend as well even if people aren't so keen to say "newer is better". But plenty of people who watch every new Cannes nom and aim to be taken seriously as analysts and reviewers, to find out that their experience with classics is ridiculously limited. FalcieGaiah said: The conclusion of this was, because of the pacing. Older shows have a slower pace, the newer generation likes instant gratification, older shows are slower, have more buildup, the dialogue is really really slow, people just get bored. It has nothing to do with the animation, or the aspect ratio and the lower resolution, or even the art styles, I mean, it's certainly connected to the animation, but the exact reason is pacing. Kinda sorta but not completely, particularly if we talk about anime, which has a huge element of appreciation of slowness and observational narratives. In this medium the effect may be considerably lower, considering as well that slice of life and "plotless" stories are more prevalent now than they have ever been. Other than that, your conclusion is a bit forced when you have people in this very thread saying that they don't like the animation, the aspect ratio, the lower resolution or the art styles. There is not an "exact reason" here. FalcieGaiah said: Put those shows at 2x speed and they'll like it, otherwise forget it. And this applies to movies and normal tv shows as well, it's not a coincidence disney films picked up the pace, especially dialogue wise, the plots also move forward way faster than they did before. I didn't know that anybody did that outside of trolls claiming it to bait others and people who want to pad their MAL list desperately. |
Feb 10, 2019 4:25 AM
#230
I'm just gonna throw around this video to you |
Feb 10, 2019 4:49 AM
#231
Perfect................................................. |
The battle is over. Show respect for the fallen who fought so bravely. |
Feb 10, 2019 4:50 AM
#232
vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. Thinking "new anime" look better than "old anime" is... hmmmm.... I guess it's an opinion, and it's definitely valid, but it sounds poorly worded and kinda ignorant because all new anime don't share the same artstyle or animation techniques. Devilman Crybaby doesn't exactly look like re:Zero, yet they're both modern. Same goes for old anime. "Old anime is objectively ugly" wanders outside of the subjectivity territory tho, and in that case, an actual argument is required to back up this statement. Sadly, the "old anime are objectively outdated" side fell short of any decent technical argument, and one user here ended up saying "fluidity of animation or complexity or artstyles have nothing to do with it, I can see modern anime is objectively better looking, others can see it, so it must be the truth". That's.... far from objective |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Feb 10, 2019 5:07 AM
#233
Holy shit this is hilarious. lol Although I'm not that young, I simply don't watch older anime because I don't have the motivation and modern anime seem more appealing. That doesn't mean I dislike older anime though. I watched some of them mostly when I was a kid and I recall enjoying them. |
VeckoFeb 10, 2019 5:10 AM
Feb 10, 2019 5:08 AM
#234
@FalcieGaiah oIt's pretty interesting, where can we read your studies paper? (I always thought that apart from a handful of movies still made with the previous standard durations, most current movies were rather slow thanks to their longer duration or worse, the fact they're cut in 2or3parts) @Pullman Loving your neologism, "bestest". @Psajdak Using DYRL is such an easy blow. XD And yet, right under, someone threw a "ugly" up. (well, he said the girls, not the drawings, that's already something) @CodeBlazeFate Don't want to be a part of all of this? (I promise you'll find some excellent lines on almost all the pages of the thread. Read right under me for a first example. @FMmatron Genauso wie ich. (Einige Antworte sind aber preislos) |
Rei_IIIFeb 10, 2019 7:00 AM
Feb 10, 2019 5:32 AM
#235
hipsters are really fun :') btw those 2 girls are ugly as fuck real beauties here <3 |
Feb 10, 2019 5:35 AM
#236
vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. That's pretty naive, I can't even list how many times I've seen people spout 'old anime are XYZ' without a single old anime on their lists. It's at least 90-95% of all the posts that spout nonsense about old anime as if they knew what they were talking about. But even if I thought you were right, it's still a) anecdotal and not empirical if they just write off whole decades of anime based on a few experiences and b) a preference. And none of the posts I take issue with that randomly bash old anime just voice a preference, they all pretend to spew off 'facts' about how stuff always gets better the newer it is how old art is always worse etc... If you'd have read my whole contributions to this thread I'm pretty sure at some point I said I don't mind people having a preference for modern shows, but I can't stand the fact that so many of them feel the need to pretend it's based on any objective difference in quality and their preference isn't personal, it's logical and 'correct'. It's that toxic mentality that I fight against. It's the difference between just liking new anime more than old ones, and thinking that 'new = better' is an actual argument as to why it's just logical to prefer modern anime. When people say they just prefer modern stuff, I don't mind. I still think it's mostly an issue of what you're used to and if you can find one or two old shows whose contents really captivate you, you'll quickly get over the visual bias like it has happened to me and many others, but it's not really my concern what people watch. But when they start generalizing and spewing off wrong things about animation quality only being dependent on when it was produced and art styles being better just because they're new, pretending they know anything about animation or art in general when they really don't, then I step in. If you can't have a preference without trying to demean and belittle and shit on everything else, then I'm not gonna hold back in telling you how objectively wrong and full of shit you are. |
I probably regret this post by now. |
Feb 10, 2019 5:40 AM
#237
Deathko said: vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. Thinking "new anime" look better than "old anime" is... hmmmm.... I guess it's an opinion, and it's definitely valid, but it sounds poorly worded and kinda ignorant because all new anime don't share the same artstyle or animation techniques. Devilman Crybaby doesn't exactly look like re:Zero, yet they're both modern. Same goes for old anime. If with poorly worded u mean we should add smth like "the old anime we know about are worse" or smth I guess ur technically right. But it's like the same as when someone says "smth is aoty", to claim that u shoulda watched literally every anime of that year, which no one does. "Out of the ones I've watched" is kinda implied there. It's a fucking online forum, I think that's pretty forgivable "poor wording" tbh. Deathko said: "Old anime is objectively ugly" wanders outside of the subjectivity territory tho, and in that case, an actual argument is required to back up this statement. Sadly, the "old anime are objectively outdated" side fell short of any decent technical argument, and one user here ended up saying "fluidity of animation or complexity or artstyles have nothing to do with it, I can see modern anime is objectively better looking, others can see it, so it must be the truth". That's.... far from objective "Old anime is objectively ugly" is a pretty dumb claim, but I don't think they really believe that, they probably just don't know what "objectively" actually means. Anyway it's kinda irrelevant with my comment, not sure why ur mentioning that. |
Feb 10, 2019 5:42 AM
#238
You say that one more time about Minmay and Misa, and I will beat the shit out of your daughter! Btw, another example: Once: ![]() Now: ![]() I think we know who is the winner. |
Feb 10, 2019 5:43 AM
#239
Heldengeist said: Mythologically said: No. This is also a stretch. There are just as much if not more corner cutting in averago now than back then. The industry just can't put out 100 anime a season in consistently good quality. There are maybe 4 studios which can keep their visual quality consistently high (KyoAni, Bones, Trigger and Shaftt), but those generally only make one series every other season. That isn't faster than the rate by the industry worked before the 2000s. The rest of the anime being made is really not that great.On the other hand, it's not a stretch to say that on average, modern anime art is better. (2017) (1993) Right the first picture look like plastic dolls. Will still watch Tsuki ga Kirai ofc, but they look so plastic. Somehow, this bothers me to no end, and people have noses too, god damn. Draw noses please. But what I like about the character designs is that there were more of this over the top designs in the 90s (think so?) with overdone hairstyles and impossibly stupid clothes. |
Feb 10, 2019 5:56 AM
#240
tragedydesu said: You did not just insult two babes who look better and have more detail than all theee chicks in your post combined! I will feed you dry, pointy cacti.hipsters are really fun :') btw those 2 girls are ugly as fuck real beauties here <3 |
Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Feb 10, 2019 5:59 AM
#241
@CodeBlazeFate yep they are ugly as hell , nothing can change that for me :') |
Feb 10, 2019 6:03 AM
#242
Pullman said: vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. That's pretty naive, I can't even list how many times I've seen people spout 'old anime are XYZ' without a single old anime on their lists. It's at least 90-95% of all the posts that spout nonsense about old anime as if they knew what they were talking about. But even if I thought you were right, it's still a) anecdotal and not empirical if they just write off whole decades of anime based on a few experiences and b) a preference. And none of the posts I take issue with that randomly bash old anime just voice a preference, they all pretend to spew off 'facts' about how stuff always gets better the newer it is how old art is always worse etc... If you'd have read my whole contributions to this thread I'm pretty sure at some point I said I don't mind people having a preference for modern shows, but I can't stand the fact that so many of them feel the need to pretend it's based on any objective difference in quality and their preference isn't personal, it's logical and 'correct'. It's that toxic mentality that I fight against. It's the difference between just liking new anime more than old ones, and thinking that 'new = better' is an actual argument as to why it's just logical to prefer modern anime. When people say they just prefer modern stuff, I don't mind. I still think it's mostly an issue of what you're used to and if you can find one or two old shows whose contents really captivate you, you'll quickly get over the visual bias like it has happened to me and many others, but it's not really my concern what people watch. But when they start generalizing and spewing off wrong things about animation quality only being dependent on when it was produced and art styles being better just because they're new, pretending they know anything about animation or art in general when they really don't, then I step in. If you can't have a preference without trying to demean and belittle and shit on everything else, then I'm not gonna hold back in telling you how objectively wrong and full of shit you are. About not having old anime in your list; that doesn't necessary mean they don't know what they're talking about, people usually put on their list things they've fully watched, to jugde if the art style of an anime matches your taste, 2 or 3 minutes, if not a single frame, are more than enough sometimes. About the rest: I can kind of agree I guess, still, what I said in that comment holds its ground imo, new=better when it comes to anime isn't an assumption, it's their opinion (my opinion too actually), whenever or not some of them can't tell the difference between their opinion and what's objective or a fact is all another issue imo. If you're bothered by that I think that's what u should andress. |
vhagar8Feb 10, 2019 6:07 AM
Feb 10, 2019 6:10 AM
#243
vhagar8 said: Deathko said: vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. Thinking "new anime" look better than "old anime" is... hmmmm.... I guess it's an opinion, and it's definitely valid, but it sounds poorly worded and kinda ignorant because all new anime don't share the same artstyle or animation techniques. Devilman Crybaby doesn't exactly look like re:Zero, yet they're both modern. Same goes for old anime. If with poorly worded u mean we should add smth like "the old anime we know about are worse" or smth I guess ur technically right. But it's like the same as when someone says "smth is aoty", to claim that u shoulda watched literally every anime of that year, which no one does. "Out of the ones I've watched" is kinda implied there. It's a fucking online forum, I think that's pretty forgivable "poor wording" tbh. No, I meant it's poorly worded because the age of the show is secondary. Imaishi's stuff looks pretty Go Nagai-esque at times, and that's not exactly modern. The dislike definitely comes from other things, but people don't even know why they dislike it or how to phrase it, wich ends up in the hilarious "discussion" I had yesterday with a bunch of clowns claiming their opinions where the objective truth, and resorting to insults and general dumbassery when asked for an actual tangible objective argument. People are free to dislike the look of cel animation, they're free to dislike ALL the artstyles anime went through over more than half a century (I legit never met anyone who actually tried to watch anime from all periods who say that but whatever), they're free to think color filters are the best thing ever and improve the quality of any show from "ugly outdated" to "modern beautiful", and those would be actual arguments. Not really objective ones, but at least they hold some value and it's possible to have a discussion. Opinions aren't all equals, and if people believe a poorly worded, ignorant opinion with no argument to back it up is worth something, then I'm sorry but a reality check is in order. Especially when they pepper said poorly worded, ignorant opinion with "objectively" and "it's not debatable" @CodeBlazeFate I think you didn't get the sarcasm of the post you quoted... And the girls you posted aren't exactly pretty either >.> They're definitely less human looking at the very least. |
DeathkoFeb 10, 2019 6:15 AM
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Feb 10, 2019 6:14 AM
#244
@CodeBlazeFate Funny because Macross has one of the worst animations I've ever seen. Look at this shit. I'm gonna throw up |
Feb 10, 2019 6:21 AM
#245
@Psajdak going all chaotic neutral with dumb comparisons in either side is in retrospect the best thing that could happen to this thread. |
Feb 10, 2019 6:31 AM
#246
oof your taste in good detail and aeathetics are incurable. |
Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Feb 10, 2019 6:45 AM
#247
There's not much to say, many people are simply victim of the Barney Stinson meme. Either because they're brainwashed and genuinely believe in the new is always better mentality or because they just want to be part of the hype. But anyway, going through all pages was definitely worth it. Some interesting posts, funny ones and then again others where I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry. What an emotional roller coaster, I will give this thread a 7,5/10 |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
Feb 10, 2019 6:46 AM
#248
cevat24 said: A. I was discussing DYRL, not the OG TV anime (which can be real hit or miss with its visuals depending on the episode). Don’t try to pull that on me.@CodeBlazeFate Funny because Macross has one of the worst animations I've ever seen. Look at this shit. I'm gonna throw up B. The artwork, background detail, art style, and animation (when it isn’t just stills cuz yea, Macross can get pretty shifty at times) are still miles better than alot of action anime this season such as Mahou Shoujo Asuka (or whatever the title is), Girly Air Force, and Date A Live 3. Not to say it lolks great or even better than say, Mob Psycho 100 Season 2 (or some other entries in the Macross franchise), but the poinr still stands. C. You are purposely going out of your way to hyperbolize the issue, regardless. D. Going back to DYRL, you genuinely cannot tell me with a straight face that these viduals are bad, unless you have a sense of visual taste that’s alien: |
CodeBlazeFateFeb 10, 2019 7:44 AM
Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Feb 10, 2019 6:50 AM
#249
Deathko said: I doubt he had a hint of sarcasm, especially given thst for what it’s worth, the gifs he showed also look good. Also yes they look more human and detailed, and the latter (detail and artwork) was my point. Also, what the fuck did you just call them I will hunt you down, swap your testicles and eyeballs, and throw cacti at yoy for insulting them and their beauty.vhagar8 said: Deathko said: vhagar8 said: Pullman said: The random assumption that new = better This assumption is something I personally hate tbh. New = better isn't a "random assumption", it's a valid opinion backed up by empirical evidences. People just don't assume that old anime are worse, people watch a little of old anime and then decide on their own they're worse, not because of the age they're made in, but because it's their goddamn opinion. Thinking "new anime" look better than "old anime" is... hmmmm.... I guess it's an opinion, and it's definitely valid, but it sounds poorly worded and kinda ignorant because all new anime don't share the same artstyle or animation techniques. Devilman Crybaby doesn't exactly look like re:Zero, yet they're both modern. Same goes for old anime. If with poorly worded u mean we should add smth like "the old anime we know about are worse" or smth I guess ur technically right. But it's like the same as when someone says "smth is aoty", to claim that u shoulda watched literally every anime of that year, which no one does. "Out of the ones I've watched" is kinda implied there. It's a fucking online forum, I think that's pretty forgivable "poor wording" tbh. No, I meant it's poorly worded because the age of the show is secondary. Imaishi's stuff looks pretty Go Nagai-esque at times, and that's not exactly modern. The dislike definitely comes from other things, but people don't even know why they dislike it or how to phrase it, wich ends up in the hilarious "discussion" I had yesterday with a bunch of clowns claiming their opinions where the objective truth, and resorting to insults and general dumbassery when asked for an actual tangible objective argument. People are free to dislike the look of cel animation, they're free to dislike ALL the artstyles anime went through over more than half a century (I legit never met anyone who actually tried to watch anime from all periods who say that but whatever), they're free to think color filters are the best thing ever and improve the quality of any show from "ugly outdated" to "modern beautiful", and those would be actual arguments. Not really objective ones, but at least they hold some value and it's possible to have a discussion. Opinions aren't all equals, and if people believe a poorly worded, ignorant opinion with no argument to back it up is worth something, then I'm sorry but a reality check is in order. Especially when they pepper said poorly worded, ignorant opinion with "objectively" and "it's not debatable" @CodeBlazeFate I think you didn't get the sarcasm of the post you quoted... And the girls you posted aren't exactly pretty either >.> They're definitely less human looking at the very least. |
Being wrong is just an occupational hazard. Follow me on twitter. I have an anitube channel so feel free to check it out and subscribe if you like what you see. |
Feb 10, 2019 6:52 AM
#250
I'd rather have this amazig piece of art in my anime than,..... all this shitty 3d cgi |
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