| Yaoi as a genre seems to be seen as immune to criticism by people and anyone who does is met with a blanket accusations of homophobia. In this video some legitimate criticisms are brought up about Yaoi, I'll briefly go over them. 1. Fetishizing, simplifying and objectifying gay men and their relationship and are not truly reflective of real gay men or the struggles they face. 2. It promotes stereotypes/tropes of semei and uke (top and bottom). Often following gender stereotypes of a more dominant and masculine top and a more feminine and submissive bottom. 3. Romanticization and trivialization of rape and rape fantasy (rape culture?) Honestly my experience with yaoi is pretty limited. Even in very popular or acclaimed works though I see some of those tropes such as Tezuka "MW" where this seme and uke dynamic come into play and it also contains romanticism of rape, but not among the two main characters. It also has bestiality, but I guess that's another issue. I think the worst yaoi thing I've seen is probably Togainu no Chi which I started watching cause I thought it was just a fighting anime, but I soon realized the yaoi elements were a lot more prominent... These was some straight up rape, NTR, the uke/seme stuff and a lot of things I'd rather not say. I guess the other thing I want to address is the accusation of homophobia as this implies that there is a gay man or men to be homophobic against. If it was Bara which is actually made by gay men for gay men I could see your point. Yaoi by definition is made by heterosexual females for heterosexual females. The creations are fictional ie: not real, just the idealizations by these heterosexual female creators So who exactly is the victim here? There is no one to be homophobic against. I'm sure I will get people that will say that they are being homophobic toward the fictional gay characters, but this is implying that the fictional characters represent or are equivelant to real gay men. No matter which way you look at it fictional representations of gay men created by heterosexual women are not the same thing as actual gay men. Thus the accusation of homophobia does not logically follow. So what is my goal here? It is pretty much just my opening thought. Yaoi should face just as much scrutiny and criticism as any other genre of anime, instead of this constant blanket accusations of homophobia against anyone who finds faults in the genre. There are most certainly problematic issues within yaoi that should be discussed, but the fanbase of yaoi is so often opposed to any sort of discourse about its negative aspects. This is not to say that I dislike all yaoi. I thought MW was quite good despite the tropes and Yuri on ice was fairly enjoyable, although I felt like they should have given it a more conclusive/satisfying ending rather than sequel-bait. So yeah bring on the hate and accusations of homophobia. |
LoneWolfDec 28, 2016 12:05 AM
 "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
| You are met with such response because yaoi is a genre that is either you love it or avoid it completely after contact (generally anyways). It's a likely possibility that these people have met with individuals who tar all yaoi with one brush, hence their defensive nature. In any case, weirdness and how fucked up something is is with reference to each person, most of anime is considered weird by most people's standards. That said, I do agree that yaoi anime is often what you've mentioned above fetishising, objectivifying, often involves seme/uke play and possibly rape. |
| If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| What about Yuri series OP? Mhhh... Well either way, I avoid one and accept one. |
 With a touch lot of fujoshi fanaticism |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
| I feel like 50% of your objections is because of rape. Rape is great. In media. |
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| Any fanbase can be annoyingly defensive, honestly. Most yaoi just panders to what the target audience wants. I actually haven't read or watched one with a natural relationship. I havent actually seen much of a backlash from the fanbase to criticism though. I talk to a lot of yaoi fan girls and they all agree the writing is bad. Also, about the bara thing, they aren't generally good representations of gay men either. A magic genie pulling someone through a tv for a good time... hmm.. These generally have the same problems, the guys are just beefier and hairier. |
| because its ok for men to be sexualized but not women... |
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Darek said: EcchiLordMamster said: because its ok for men to be sexualized but not women... I think there is a problem, with not enough men being sexualized, what about gays? won't anyone think of the gays? XD we've already been over this... if people want more gay male anime and sexy men, then more girls and gay guys need to make anime, cause ain't none of us straight guy gonna make that, and we are what dominate |
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| sounds like you hate gays nigga. you homophobic? |
Darek said: EcchiLordMamster said: we've already been over this... if people want more gay anime and sexy men, then more girls and gay guys need to make anime, cause ain't none of us straight guy gonna make that, and we are what dominate You sure you ain't gay? cause you've just swallowed the end of the sentence XD not exactly sure what that means lol.... |
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PoeticJustice said: sounds like you hate gays nigga. you homophobic? Damn you got me bruh, the way to atone for my sins to get assraped and smoke dicks :( |
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
Darek said: how did you not get that, mam ?That was a terrible pun implying you like to swallow since your last sentence seems like it's missing "s the anime community" XD btw, yaoi is just gay porn = hentai, so op hentai in general doesnt get that much critical analyzing as do regular shows. series portraying homos doesnt automaticlly make it yaoi unless its explicit sexual content |
| Because Yaoi is the peak of human evolution and the unavoidable future. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Why don't you make a poll on this lol.. |
| I'm gonna have to be 'that person' and point out that Yaoi is the primarily pornographic side of BL fiction, which - kinda obvious - will have a lot of gross kinky shit most people who 'read for the story' will not like. If I went to the straight equivalent - which is hentai - then I'd be met with tons of rape fantasy and tentacle shenanigans. Don't see much of a difference, honestly. The older fans of this genre tend to hate all the stereotypes with this genre as well, including the rape and 'uke' BS. If anything it's the younger teens who gravitate towards that because they find it cute, which to me always sounds like some kind of self-insert thing. Since a lot of the genre is written by women FOR women, that makes sense to me. I tend to avoid them because otherwise I fear I'll have another young girl tell me they love gay men and would rather watch them than date them- which to me just immediately turns fetishistic. This is all from a westerner's perspective, though, and I feel like all the common tropes in the genre came from somewhere that doesn't involve us - the Japanese mangaka who write it this way must have a certain view of gay men over there or something. All that said, I don't really get how you think Yaoi isn't criticized. Every time there's even a mention of gay in an Anime that could perhaps steer it towards the genre there's outcry everywhere. People love to tear into it. |
| From my experience, yuri gets more of a pass. Yaoi/BL: What is this gay sh*t, instant drop. Yuri: What the slightest hint of yuri? AOTS Lets have this be the most talked about part of the show. Shows that come to the top of my head are New Game and Hibike Euphonium |
takenMalUsername said: because yuri is glorious you dipshitFrom my experience, yuri gets more of a pass. Yaoi/BL: What is this gay sh*t, instant drop. Yuri: What the slightest hint of yuri? AOTS Lets have this be the most talked about part of the show. Shows that come to the top of my head are New Game and Hibike Euphonium |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
takenMalUsername said: From my experience, yuri gets more of a pass. Yaoi/BL: What is this gay sh*t, instant drop. Yuri: What the slightest hint of yuri? AOTS Lets have this be the most talked about part of the show. Shows that come to the top of my head are New Game and Hibike Euphonium Seriously, you gotta be living under a rock if you don't see people complaining about yaoi. |
Shuichi2 said: takenMalUsername said: From my experience, yuri gets more of a pass. Yaoi/BL: What is this gay sh*t, instant drop. Yuri: What the slightest hint of yuri? AOTS Lets have this be the most talked about part of the show. Shows that come to the top of my head are New Game and Hibike Euphonium Seriously, you gotta be living under a rock if you don't see people complaining about yaoi. Uh, exactly? That was his point. Some people complain and go batshit crazy every time a new Yaoi/Fujobait anime comes out but Yuri anime do not get the same treatment because those who watch yaoi couldn't care less of it and move on with their lives. |
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Vyudali said: This is all from a westerner's perspective, though, and I feel like all the common tropes in the genre came from somewhere that doesn't involve us - the Japanese mangaka who write it this way must have a certain view of gay men over there or something. From what I've heard, yaoi guys don't behave anything like any kind of real men, gay or not. They explicitly behave like women, and that's the whole point. Just like anime girls which behave like men are a big plus to a man like me. |
| ofc hating yaoi/shounen ai = homophobia xD fujoshis are really cancer those gay shows dont get any free pass for me , i dont even think about watching them |
tragedydesuDec 28, 2016 5:09 AM
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| What kind of people are you hanging out with, OP? |
| I think the main problem is people are too passionate on both ends of the spectrum. Often it's either rabid fangirls defending their precious yaoi to the ends of the world or actual homophobes who can't grasp that not everyone is into hetero or yuri. I agree with what you said, though, and yaoi anime should definitely be judged as anime and whether the core of the show aside from the yaoi is romance or action or w/e, and not given an automatic free pass because of hasubandos. I think the same about yuri and ecchi in general as well. All three of these subgenres have a lot worth exploring that isn't being explored because it's easy to use the already-established model that seems to get otaku and fujoshi buying. From this season, I can cite Keijo as being a really fun ecchi that went full shonen and used the fanservice more as a tool to make it seem more over the top rather than using it as fap bait, kinda like in Kill la Kill; I think Flip Flappers is using yuri very much non-fetishistically as a means to enhance the main duo's dynamic, kinda like in Utena (TV series); and while I think Yuri on Ice treated its main couple a little bit as a fetish at times, I have to commend it for going much farther than non-expressedly shonen-ai and yaoi series have in the past and for making the core of the show the figure skating in practice, not just in name only. I think there's a lot of room to move forward from here but we have to tackle these things with an open mind and critically, not blindly accepting or hating what comes. |
| I don't know shit about yaoi, but I have read any single one of your arguments, and not just once or twice. At the very least you are exaggerating here. Yaoi is not immune to criticism. |
| Yaoi does not get a free pass... Why you ask? Because I am alive... Thats not very convincing... |
| That homophobic post tho. Yaoi doesn't get a free pass. Fucking criticism from posters like this are everywhere. A lot of people avoid shows just because they have a slight hint of homosexual relationships. It's understandable. Yaoi is an uncomfortable genre for people to watch if they are not open about it. |
| You've clearly never gone on MAL if you think yaoi gets a free pass. People give yuri way more of a chance and plenty of people on her only think with their dicks and just want cute girls. Did you not see how many people were flipping out because Yuri!! on Ice wasn't yuri but was actually pretty gay? |
| every single one of my forum posts is dumb and invalid except for 1, I don't claim them it was a different person it was all fake |
| It get's criticism. Anyways, I'd advise people to ignore the Yaoi fans who automatically assume you're homophobic if you don't like yaoi. However, people who say 'this gay shit' or whatever do come off as homophobic whether they want to or not. Obviously, straight -males- are going to be ~edgy~ around yaoi and hate it, for the most part. Anyways, imo, the reason why it doesn't get a lot of what you're saying is because most of it's fanbase is comprised of obsessed-girls who tend to not see reason. Do gays even watch yaoi? I don't. It's not interesting to me at all and the plot generally sucks, so there's that. |
lady_freyja said: @Toa_of_Gallifrey About what you said. I'm under the impression, for reading yaoi, that there was a clear regression in the quality of the works. I mean in the first and second generations of yaoi works, the yaoi elements are used as a tool, in order to reinforce the aim of the manga, meaning that most of those works would work even without the yaoi, they would probably have been less good, but still managed to work. But starting what I consider the third generation, the dōjinshi generation, the yaoi works focused on how cute/hot/sexy those two (or more) guys are together. Fortunately, some works tried to be more enterprising than that, but they are few in middle of tons of fan-service/porn focused works, mediocre works for which if you remove the yaoi from it, you'll just get a bad romance/porn. Interesting. I didn't know much about its history so I didn't base myself off on that but it's a shame to see that it seems to be going backwards rather than forwards. |
RainyRai said: You've clearly never gone on MAL if you think yaoi gets a free pass. People give yuri way more of a chance and plenty of people on her only think with their dicks and just want cute girls. Did you not see how many people were flipping out because Yuri!! on Ice wasn't yuri but was actually pretty gay? Exactly. Every thread this forum knows is directed toward anime's male audiences. I hardly see yaoi getting a 'free pass'. If anything, the majority of this website's forum users come across as quite homophobic and they feel it necessary to always let the world know of their blatant homophobia. I have never come across a woman who felt it necessary to slander lesbian females or anything of the sort in anime. We simply do not watch it and do not speak of it. Yet men have this base kind of primal instinct where they apparantly need to preserve their 'masculinity' by calling gay men every possible sort of insult. It's pathethic. |
 » "Mercy is for losers..." « ⍏⍏⍏⍏⍏ inspector @ MAL's anime watching challenge |
| I think it's actually funny that people are arguing about fetishizing and stereotypes in Yaoi. Every genre of anime has this "problem" and since when is anime supposed to be a realistic depiction of the real world and how people behave there? I must have missed that. About Yaoi not getting criticized, I don't know where this thought even comes from. Must be from people who only talk to fangirls/boys. |
| . |
Lestat- said: RainyRai said: You've clearly never gone on MAL if you think yaoi gets a free pass. People give yuri way more of a chance and plenty of people on her only think with their dicks and just want cute girls. Did you not see how many people were flipping out because Yuri!! on Ice wasn't yuri but was actually pretty gay? Exactly. Every thread this forum knows is directed toward anime's male audiences. I hardly see yaoi getting a 'free pass'. If anything, the majority of this website's forum users come across as quite homophobic and they feel it necessary to always let the world know of their blatant homophobia. I have never come across a woman who felt it necessary to slander lesbian females or anything of the sort in anime. We simply do not watch it and do not speak of it. Yet men have this base kind of primal instinct where they apparantly need to preserve their 'masculinity' by calling gay men every possible sort of insult. It's pathethic. There ... It started again , Is being homophobic that bad anyways? I always thought its just any other fear/dislike like fear/dislike of heights , water etc.. This community sure exaggerates things... Most men don't like gay not because they are afraid of it but rather they find it disgusting soo there you have it.. Oh and I only have examphobia because I can't literally hit/smash it.. |
KazuroWeisemannDec 28, 2016 9:26 AM
| Because you don't need words or description to know that yaoi is bad. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Does OP live in an ocean trench Lestat- said: It's more important for men to project how not-gay they are, because the consequences of being gay are greater for men.RainyRai said: You've clearly never gone on MAL if you think yaoi gets a free pass. People give yuri way more of a chance and plenty of people on her only think with their dicks and just want cute girls. Did you not see how many people were flipping out because Yuri!! on Ice wasn't yuri but was actually pretty gay? Exactly. Every thread this forum knows is directed toward anime's male audiences. I hardly see yaoi getting a 'free pass'. If anything, the majority of this website's forum users come across as quite homophobic and they feel it necessary to always let the world know of their blatant homophobia. I have never come across a woman who felt it necessary to slander lesbian females or anything of the sort in anime. We simply do not watch it and do not speak of it. Yet men have this base kind of primal instinct where they apparantly need to preserve their 'masculinity' by calling gay men every possible sort of insult. It's pathethic. The solution lies not in ridiculing men for acting in their own protective self interests, but in reducing the harms that gay men face from society, so that being thought of as gay is no longer dangerous. |
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| fujoshi's are waaaaaay more crazier than yuri-fans....... |
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kazuro said: There ... It started again , Is being homophobic that bad anyways? I always thought its just any other fear/dislike like fear/dislike of heights , water etc.. This community sure exaggerates things... Oh and I only have examphobia because I can't literally hit/smash it.. It is fine if you fear a concept such as heights, fire or water. I can even understand certain fears for animals. But how could you possibly fear homosexuality itself? It means you fear the natural process of sexual orientation of a person with whom you have nothing to do. You fear a human being whose biological nature is structured differently from yours. It would be the same as fearing blonde hair or green eyes, it is absurd. |
» "Mercy is for losers..." « ⍏⍏⍏⍏⍏ inspector @ MAL's anime watching challenge |
Lestat- said: kazuro said: There ... It started again , Is being homophobic that bad anyways? I always thought its just any other fear/dislike like fear/dislike of heights , water etc.. This community sure exaggerates things... Oh and I only have examphobia because I can't literally hit/smash it.. It is fine if you fear a concept such as heights, fire or water. I can even understand certain fears for animals. But how could you possibly fear homosexuality itself? It means you fear the natural process of sexual orientation of a person with whom you have nothing to do. You fear a human being whose biological nature is structured differently from yours. It would be the same as fearing blonde hair or green eyes, it is absurd. I feel very uncomfortable since you used 'you' in your comment which is directed towards me -_- ... I can't possibly be afraid... I just don't find it very appealing or it is outside my comfort zone... If I met a gay person I would treat him the same as others..... probably .. |
| People complain about yaoi all the time, the fanbase doesn't, logically. I don't really see where you got the idea that yaoi gets a free pass. It's mostly fetishizing, because that's the kind of thing yaoi is. Yaoi just isn't as widespread as ecchi and shit, so not many people really come into contact with it, unless they're fans of the genre. |
codephat said: Also, about the bara thing, they aren't generally good representations of gay men either. A magic genie pulling someone through a tv for a good time... hmm.. These generally have the same problems, the guys are just beefier and hairier. That scenario might be fun to read though if done right. |
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