| If you want to like something I like you can get fucked. |
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| I am all for gatekeeping certain types of people. I don't like people who explicitly tell me they want to mitigate the presence of fans with interests like mine, because that's expressing a desire to gatekeep. I also don't like it when they run around to people's profiles and make it out like they were simply called a cunt for their ideological beliefs and association with movements, and not that they were blatantly expressing a desire to gatekeep people they consider undesirable because of their interests. I am also for gatekeeping people who try to get certain types of forum sets banned because they don't want to have to see them, while conveniently ignoring all of the pre-existing tools they can use to avoid these things on this website to continue pushing for these types of content bans. People like that, sure, I don't want them here. Drive them out of the community. People who want to drive out people who aren't doing anything except existing and liking something that makes them uncomfortable should not be welcomed and I don't want them to be welcomed, not 'til they're willing to tolerate the existence of other people not being in-line with how they want them to be. There are plenty people who are like that, and I am 100% certain that they're also usually the ones who are getting most upset whenever they're faced with similar gatekeeping-oriented rhetoric that's aimed at them. Breaking it down into broader terms that can often be ill-defined and vary from person to person and not wanting to gatekeep people for the attitude they display is not something I'm for, though. It's stupid. The fuck do I care if normies or SJWs like something? They can do whatever the fuck they want until they start actively trying to push me and others like me out. It's not my place until then and I've got no interest in making it such. |
ManabanOct 1, 2019 11:07 PM
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YossaRedMage said: I disagree with your framing this as an in-group/out-group division -- the way I see it, there's bad behavior both inside and outside of the fandom anyway, and I'd rather we target the bad behavior than frame it less accurately as an in-group/out-group thing.Dolabella said: Yes, I definitely think we should prevent people from experiencing something they could possibly enjoy. Why should we let other people have good things? It ruins my precious belief that I'm a part of a niche community. You - like half the people in this thread - misunderstand the recent trend towards wanting to "gatekeep" anime. It's about resisting intrusion in to community by people that clearly don't enjoy anime, because they do very little but complain and call for more censorship and for long-established elements of the culture to change because they judge them as bad. We already have people in the fandom complaining about whatever genre they don't like and wanting to see less of it. We have people in the fandom crapping on dubs and dub fans. We have some people in the fandom who can be overbearing in their desire to have everyone watch the same shows. And that's just for parts of the fandom that involve complaining about stuff or attempting to censor views they don't like -- there are other crappy parts, such as those who are overly judgemental (be it about shows or fellow fans or non-fans) and are liable to make sweeping statements when finer ones would be more appropriate. There's nothing magically sacred about the anime fandom "culture". We can and should clean up our act here too, just as we ask that newcomers conduct themselves with respect to others. "Gatekeeping" is not the right term for this, honestly; it'd be more accurately described as asking people to behave themselves and giving them the stinkeye if they don't. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Kruszer said: I have no idea what you're talking about so here's a bunny with a pancake on it's head.  That is super adorable and the best response to this whole thread |
What? An AWACS bunny (not sure how it gets airborne tho) looks adorable to you? But it's the epitome of surveillance and gatekeeping! |
alshuOct 2, 2019 2:13 AM
| Keep normies and sjw's away from the anime. They are not anime fans anyway. They only infiltrate communities pretending to be fans in order to push their politics on to other like they did with other forms of entertainment in the west. We don't want anime to become like comic and movie industry in the west. |
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BlackPilled said: Keep normies and sjw's away from the anime. They are not anime fans anyway. They only infiltrate communities pretending to be fans in order to push their politics on to other like they did with other forms of entertainment in the west. We don't want anime to become like comic and movie industry in the west. You know it doesn't really help your point when said point is surrounded by drawings of small children being sexualised. Feels like you might've shot yourself in the foot there, my dude. |
HeruruMeruru said: Here's an anecdote I just remembered: In the early 2000's manga bubble I was constantly told that manga "aren't REAL comics" and "manga fans are just a bunch of yaoi fangirls" by comic book nerd type guys that are probably Comicsgaters now who were angry because the popularity of shojo manga caused more girls to start reading graphic novels and go to comic shops, and they were "invading" their boys only club... Now these same guys who were gatekeeping manga fans out of comics because they dared to appeal to more than one demographic are suddenly claiming to be huge anime and manga fans and are saying they don't want anime and manga to... appeal to more than one demographic like western comics are starting to do now. The same thing they dismissed manga for before. Hmm... A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: You know it doesn't really help your point when said point is surrounded by drawings of small children being sexualised. Feels like you might've shot yourself in the foot there, my dude. Not to mention there have been anime and manga with progressive themes and creators in the industry who care about social issues for over half a century. True, I didn't even consider the manga side of things. I feel like a lot of the hatred, at it's core, really does just boil down to an "oh no, I have to share my comics with girls!" mentality that they never fully grew out of. |
Sai-B said: Dude stop quoting shit I deleted, I posted it too fast, I don't want to get banned xd Also, I disagree with everything you wrote. I don't think that's enough for a ban or even a warning on here. The mods are quite liberal (in the old school freedom of speech sense) about these things. I think you need to actually directly insult particular people, and quite viciously too. That said, if you want me to remove the quote from my post then let me know. Would be no problem. Also, I'm open to discussion if you want to share the reasons why you disagree with what I said. ---------------------- Dolabella said: My bad, I kinda just wanted to have a go because I get pissed off about leaving people out of things in general. I tihnk that's a very common mindset, and the intention is good, but unrestricted inclusion is not healthy for communities in my opinion. Peoples values aren't always the same, and there are just straight up toxic people out there too. Dolabella said: However, from my personal experience I don't see a lot of people using anime for "clout" who don't seem to at least enjoy it. Maybe just not looking in the right places? I'm honestly not sure - what I do know is that while anime is kinda mainstream there's a crazy number of things on the internet much easier to exploit for that kind of thing. Like, there are several video game communities that dwarf the entire anime fandom. You won't see it on here, because clout is barely a thing here so virtue signalling won't get you anywhere. However it's rampant on r/anime and Twitter. You're right about the video game community in general being much bigger and much more targetted. The video game industry has a serious problem with sex-negativity right now. People have no problem with 12 yr olds playing the most brutally violent, gorey games imaginable, but an adult wants to play a game with cute sexy girls in? Outrage. I blame the neo-traditionalist right-wing new age puritans just as much as the far-left radical feminists to be honest. Sex-positive straight men are stuck between a rock and hard place politically. But I'm going way off topic... Dolabella said: And nobody can say what the right way to enjoy something is. I don't mind sharing community space with anyone so long as we have mutual respect of each other's preferences. And admittedly I'm new to the community, so there are plenty of details I don't know. But I figure acceptance is probably the way to go - we really don't have any control over what everyone else thinks, might as well just see where the trends take us. Kind of. If we just sit back and see where trends take us we are giving in to the will of others. I speak out because that's how society changes, not by some unseen force but by individuals speaking their minds. One person makes fuck all difference of course, but the hope is that enough individuals can tip the scales. ---------------------- GlennMagusHarvey said: I disagree with your framing this as an in-group/out-group division -- the way I see it, there's bad behavior both inside and outside of the fandom anyway, and I'd rather we target the bad behavior than frame it less accurately as an in-group/out-group thing. Yeah I can agree with this. There are two sides to the issue. But I can put up with negativity from people who are already dedicated fans a lot more. It's the main reason I prefer coming here instead of Reddit. At least the assholes on here are more likely to be committed fans. Plus people are assholes in more honest ways here. On Reddit it's masked behind virtue signalling and "nice guy" language. GlennMagusHarvey said: "Gatekeeping" is not the right term for this, honestly; it'd be more accurately described as asking people to behave themselves and giving them the stinkeye if they don't. This is true. I think the use of the word gatekeeping has become popular because it is a controversial term and in places like Twitter, you need to use a certain type of language to get any attention. I still think there's good reason to use the term though. It's kind of trying to take back the meaning, as it's used by people as this easy way to defend themselves, like "oh you're just gatekeeping". And people's instincitive desire to not see people be excluded will tend to take the side of the person claiming to be "gatekept". Like, what other word is there for employing standards of acceptance within a community? Going back to my pizza analogy earlier (which I'm really proud of and not one person has qoted me on sadface), I think actually liking pizza is a reasonable standard at the bare minimum. If pizza gets popular and people want to be seen to be part of the pizza community, but they don't like pizza, they are going to start pushing food items which aren't pizza, and sooner or later the community isn't about pizza, and the people who were there just for the pizza will be alienated. It's not a perfect analogy but it demonstrates how gatekeeping is sometimes necessary. How people actually go about it isn't really a practical thing, but about a mindset that protects the object of the fandom. A mindset in which people aren't afraid of the the concept of gatekeeping, rather than any practical implementation. I think that really gets the crux of this whole thing. |
YossaRedMageOct 2, 2019 8:43 AM
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| "Gatekeepers: A group of individuals so far up their asses that they believe they have the divine right to decide who should and shouldn't consume a piece of media" Yeah it's a pretty big waste of time and effort in my opinion |
JoyBoy_316Oct 2, 2019 9:15 AM
Catalano said: Gatekeeping or not, anime is going threw censoring. Didn't you find it weird that they love to show panties, tits, sex acts, blood, gore, incest (with teens) and other stuff but they would die if they showed a anime teen smoking or drinking alcohol. I don't know where are going with anime, I can't envision what will happen 10 years from now, lack of imagination. Is it really though? I mean I remember mamimi from flcl spending most of her screentime smoking. There is even a fairy tail ova about the guild girls getting drunk including 14 yo wendy. And there is also the accidental drunk trope as well. |
JoyBoy_316 said: Catalano said: Gatekeeping or not, anime is going threw censoring. Didn't you find it weird that they love to show panties, tits, sex acts, blood, gore, incest (with teens) and other stuff but they would die if they showed a anime teen smoking or drinking alcohol. I don't know where are going with anime, I can't envision what will happen 10 years from now, lack of imagination. Is it really though? I mean I remember mamimi from flcl spending most of her screentime smoking. There is even a fairy tail ova about the guild girls getting drunk including 14 yo wendy. And there is also the accidental drunk trope as well. You are right but I was reffering at tv anime, of course ovas can add that stuff. And the accidental drunk trope is used when dealing with non alcoholic drinks, ex: persona 4, lull in the sea (quick ex). |
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| i like to think i'm against gatekeeping, but every time i hear someone say they've only watched fucking naruto and now they're an otaku, it does hurt my fragile heart. |
AnimeFreak-San said: is this a male gender issure...human issue...mental illness perhaps? |
YossaRedMage said: Iyashikei did an article on it related to this issue which covers some of the mindset and the concerns that many anime fans have: https://iyashikei.moe/blog/2019/9/6/anime-isnt-for-everyone Thanks for linking to this blog, I think the blogger has a good sense of the problems facing Western otaku. We are a very vulnerable community, much more so than video gamers, if the media decides to start poking around looking for a story. No piece of media is "for everyone," and anime is very much not for everyone. https://iyashikei.moe/blog/2019/8/16/otaku-have-no-political-allies I see people are already linking anime to the right-wing in the US, which could make us the target of leftwing trolls. raisin-kun said: Only fans in the West will have to deal with the ensuing sh*tstorm if anime reaches those levels of popularity. That's just it. Our lives are going to be made miserable if the Western media decides that anime's key trait is child porn and misogyny, and tries make a news cycle out of it like it already did once in the 1990s. The attention of powerful institutions or online left-wing lynch mobs will make it difficult or impossible for anime fans to protect what little respectability we currently have. |
glassknuckles said: Thanks for linking to this blog, I think the blogger has a good sense of the problems facing Western otaku. We are a very vulnerable community, much more so than video gamers, if the media decides to start poking around looking for a story. No piece of media is "for everyone," and anime is very much not for everyone. https://iyashikei.moe/blog/2019/8/16/otaku-have-no-political-allies "Feminists will attack Girls Bravo for its depiction of women, while men’s rights activists will attack Love Hina for its abuse of men." Imagine writing this and being serious. |
YossaRedMage said: FWIW, I haven't hung out with the anime crowd on reddit much, I haven't found an anime-related subreddit there that suits my tastes yet, as opposed to my gaming tastes, which are well served by at least several subreddits where I've had mostly good interactions. Anyhow...GlennMagusHarvey said: I disagree with your framing this as an in-group/out-group division -- the way I see it, there's bad behavior both inside and outside of the fandom anyway, and I'd rather we target the bad behavior than frame it less accurately as an in-group/out-group thing. Yeah I can agree with this. There are two sides to the issue. But I can put up with negativity from people who are already dedicated fans a lot more. It's the main reason I prefer coming here instead of Reddit. At least the assholes on here are more likely to be committed fans. Plus people are assholes in more honest ways here. On Reddit it's masked behind virtue signalling and "nice guy" language. I find that, for those people who are already dedicated fans -- or more generally, those people who are already dedicated enthusiasts/experts on any given thing -- if they happen to also have obnoxious opinions on things, they tend to be more full of themselves, perhaps out of confidence in their judgement. It's often harder to get them to change their mind if they've already made up their mind. On the other hand, you can more easily change a newbie's opinion (and that includes tempering their hype/outrage/whatever) by giving them a meaningful formative experience. I'm somewhat of an example of this myself -- I added a lot of PTW stuff several years back based on recommendations from friends, but nowadays (though partly due to the fact that my PTW is already so big) I basically ignore community recommendations now. I've found what sorts of anime shows I like; I've found what ways of watching I prefer. I'm still open to some things, such as one friend suggesting that I watch Z/X Code Reunion alongside him this season, but the pace is a lot slower since I already know what I want to do with my hobby. YossaRedMage said: I think this is a problem of basically any overly large group on the internet -- it devolves to people using clickbait/controversy/etc. to get attention.in places like Twitter, you need to use a certain type of language to get any attention. This is probably also related to the heavy use of sarcasm and "irony", where in some circles it can feel like one isn't allowed to genuinely, enthusiastically like anything, or else one is dismissed as being of poor judgement or otherwise noobish. Probably a symptom of an unhealthily inward-turned social group... YossaRedMage said: "Well-behaved"? "Honorable"?Like, what other word is there for employing standards of acceptance within a community? YossaRedMage said: As for the industry...if a restaurant focuses on pizza and its current clientele patronizes it primarily for the pizza, all it needs to do to continue attracting clientele that also focus on pizza is to continue focusing on pizza itself. This is easily the default course of things since people will continue doing their line of expertise most easily -- be it animating cartoon characters or making pizzas. That said, people will get bored with stuff after a while and will often introduce a mix of old and new -- perhaps a restaurant will try using cucumbers as a topping, and see how people like it, because the chef had an idea one day, or because someone suggested the idea in a comment card. This is natural (and some people will probably like it, too).Going back to my pizza analogy earlier (which I'm really proud of and not one person has qoted me on sadface), I think actually liking pizza is a reasonable standard at the bare minimum. If pizza gets popular and people want to be seen to be part of the pizza community, but they don't like pizza, they are going to start pushing food items which aren't pizza, and sooner or later the community isn't about pizza, and the people who were there just for the pizza will be alienated. As for the "pizza fandom"... It's naturally "self-gating" in that people who aren't interested in pizza will generally not show up. Some might, maybe because their friend or significant other is into it, but they're few and usually don't have much to say because they just...don't have much of an opinion on it. If they do, that's probably because they gradually warmed up to pizza themselves. If someone tries to join the "pizza fandom" in order to hijack it to promote, say, burgers, then -- since the pizza fandom is, by its nature, focused on pizza -- any attempt will either fall flat immediately due to lack of audience, or there might be some flaming early on but it'll fizzle out eventually because it's just not fun to continue it. Or, better yet, someone will simply continue the conversation in the burger fandom. After all, people can be fans of both pizza and burgers... On the other hand, if someone likes pepperoni pizza but hates sausage pizza, they're still a pizza fan, by definition, since pizza is a superset to pepperoni pizza. (One could also claim that they're part of the pizza hatedom, simultaneously, but that's besides the point.) Now if someone joins your little ten-person pizza club that eats both pepperoni and sausage, and starts trying to push their pro-pepperoni and anti-sausage preferences onto everyone all day every day, then they're a jerk and worth kicking out. But, first, the problem is not that they're new to your group; the problem is how they are disrespectful in how they express their preferences. If a longtime member of your group suddenly started doing the same thing, (1) it'd be very awkward to deal with since they're a longtime member, but (2) it'd probably result in that longtime member getting expelled too. And second, regardless of their length of membership in your group, they're still a pizza fan -- just not one you want to be around. You can't "gatekeep" them from liking pizza -- only from joining your specific community. There's no official membership list of being a pizza fandom member, since it's a self-identifying trait. |
GlennMagusHarveyOct 2, 2019 11:58 AM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: BlackPilled said: Keep normies and sjw's away from the anime. They are not anime fans anyway. They only infiltrate communities pretending to be fans in order to push their politics on to other like they did with other forms of entertainment in the west. We don't want anime to become like comic and movie industry in the west. You know it doesn't really help your point when said point is surrounded by drawings of small children being sexualised. Feels like you might've shot yourself in the foot there, my dude. Man, if that's all you ever screech about, your life must be pretty boring or sad. |
| "Well, she's flatter than a pancake" -Mimi Alpacas "Woof" -Tobiichi Origami "Are you trying to turn the dormitory into a strip club!?! -Atena Saotome |
| I've always thought it is simply stupid and immature to take pride at being not "normal", as if it is something you paid effort to achieve. |
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glassknuckles said: Thanks for linking to this blog, I think the blogger has a good sense of the problems facing Western otaku. We are a very vulnerable community, much more so than video gamers, if the media decides to start poking around looking for a story. No piece of media is "for everyone," and anime is very much not for everyone. https://iyashikei.moe/blog/2019/8/16/otaku-have-no-political-allies I see people are already linking anime to the right-wing in the US, which could make us the target of leftwing trolls. Yeah that's another good article from them. It's a point I bring up quite a bit. In fact I mentioned in this thread, how straight male sex-positivity is just as under attack from neo-traditionalist right-wing new age puritans that 4chan is mass-producing as we speak, as it is from the far-left radical feminists. Of course this counts for not just straight men just anyone who likes anime for its celebration of youthful feminine beauty, which includes people of both genders and all sexual orientations, but it is straight men who are the target of so much hate when it comes to this issue. @GlennMagusHarvey I think I agree with most of what you said. You shed light on a lot of the nuance under the surface, without, in my opinion, directly refuting my position. Not much to add. Although I will say you're spot on about how new fans can be much more open to different ideas in general. In fact I think my favourite types of fans are the newer people who are eager to explore all the different aspects of anime and the wider otaku culture. They can be really great. |
YossaRedMageOct 2, 2019 12:13 PM
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Tropisch said: A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: You know it doesn't really help your point when said point is surrounded by drawings of small children being sexualised. Feels like you might've shot yourself in the foot there, my dude. Man, if that's all you ever screech about, your life must be pretty boring or sad. Apparently saying "paedophilia is bad" is now some kind of radical take? Honestly, this website, man |
| How on earth would someone go about "gate-keeping' anime, in order to try and prevent mainstream influence as you suggest? Would a potential or new anime fan have to fill out some questionnaire on mal before they could create an account to show that they won't dirty up the pure weebs we already have in abundance, lmao? Or are you talking about stopping potentially damaging anime (in this case, anime with "bad" mainstream influence) from being made in the first place? Maybe we could create a group of anime knights whose job is to patrol forums and anime related social media to weed out any unwanted or undesirable opinions or influence. Then we can make sure it's just us, perfectly normal, hardcore anime fans. Threads like this make me chuckle, thanks OP, I needed this today ^_^ |
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AbrahamOmosun said: I am all for gatekeeping against people who want to cause controversy for controversy sake but all the hate against normies( people who are new to anime) is stupid. To paraphrase a quote from Outlaw star: " All men were once boys" Similarly to anime, all anime fans were once normies. To start attacking people who are new is not doing good for the fanbase I agree with your point completely (stopping controversy for the sake of being controversial & preventing hate towards "normies", how the hell do you define a "normie", someone with a smaller watchtime than you?). I've been wondering if anyone has witnessed, or maybe experienced personally, someone being attacked for "being a normie"? How does this abuse take place, as true "normies" wouldn't usually be present on any anime forums or subreddit groups. The only people who tend to have such an online presence would be new anime fans, and attacking them for being new fans and not so die hard as others is retarded, imho. We should be encouraging more new anime fans, to watch all the great shows that we all love, not putting them off (as you say adroitly in your quote "all men were once boys"). |
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| Don't let the normalfags cross you, cross the normalfags, I always say. Don't let them cross into your world, cross into theirs like an alien fucking invasion. That's the way it's done. Make them uncomfortable and worrisome, make them question everything. Inject their everyday normal routines with absolute anarchy. In robotic voice: "I will wear glitter jeans and pink brand sweats and only be interested in rich guys" Masses: Your life is a lie, we're all the same, choke on your normalcy *Shoots pervert lazers. Hell, Pornhub is normalized now. The internet is doing that. Everything that was weird has been normalized. A comic book movie broke all records at the box office. It's too late to turn back now, geeks are suddenly cool. |
The feminist angle is so self-evident I assume you're not questioning that. If I had a dollar for every time I've read someone's complaint online about girls punching boys in anime, I could at least buy a Switch. If I got a dollar for complaints about moe, "feminization" and "pussies" I could probably at least put a down payment on a car. The fact is, the ability of anime fans to control how we are seen by others is very limited. As more and more people get into anime, inevitably there will be culture shock and backlash. Outsiders will be the ones to define what "anime fans" are for other non-anime fans unless anime fans gain some measure of control over their own representation. This is simply a Foucaldian view of power through the dissemination of narratives by information authorities (journalists, critics, PhDs in literature, etc.). the problem is that there are not a lot of anime fans deeply familiar with Japanese culture, thinking and the history of anime in order to intelligently contextualize anime or Japanese games when reviewing them, without making baseless statements about Japanese people or unfairly maligning anime. For example, it doesn't even take that much exposure to anime to figure out traps are not trans, yet that is something I see people argue about even on anime boards. |
glassknucklesOct 2, 2019 5:16 PM
Nope, I'm questioning the overall phrase and the comparison it makes because it's pretty damn wrong. Love Hina is a harem anime about a male MC surrounded by sexy/fetishized girls. This is not the kind of story feminists would be fine with. And it's dumb as fuck, and childish, to assume that "abusing males" is any sort of redeeming factor to that when this """abuse""" is just another fetish thrown in the blender. Or that men's right activists would even interpret this trope as some sort of attack to their masculine integrity in a fucking harem show that celebrates being the love interest of multiple good-looking girls. This is what you get when you try to play the egalitarian card but in your examples you are both implicitly trying to sustain a narrative against one side (because feminists are super fine with abusing men, right?) and at the same time you are misrepresenting the other side by assuming it operates in the same sort of standards, when men's right activism or whatever that is, is mainly and openly an antifeminist reaction and it's more concerned about having "shoehorned" feminist messages in fiction than about a fucking fetish or comedic trait that appeals to them for starters. There's probably not anything outrageously wrong in the article except that, but that tells me a lot about the author's poor attempt at being neutral on the matter, and it makes the whole stance dishonest. By the way, "trap" is a Western term originating from a Western meme, so no, not a very good example to show deep knowledge about Japanese culture. |
jal90Oct 2, 2019 6:08 PM
| The Gatekeepers anime? I only saw a little at a con once but it was an okay show... ......................................................................................wait. |
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| TL;DR: They just want to protect their way of living and the characteristics of such media they have loved for all this time. It's not a case of "hate of outsiders", outsiders will be welcome as long as they abide with our customs and assimilate to our culture. Don't you think it would be unfair for all those who made the anime community what it is today, and that were here when anime wasn't as famous, to have to change everything they do just to please alien normies who were always against all of that? It is harder to build something than to destroy something, OP. "I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. [...] I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must." ―Ulfric Stormcloak" Non-TL;DR:  @HeruruMeruru Now that's a pretty big strawman, considering that the popularization of comics to a female audience began with Sandman back in the 80's, and people don't shittalk Sandman. |
thewiruOct 2, 2019 7:11 PM
HeruruMeruru said: Something I actually experienced while buying manga at comic shops in the 2000's is just a strawman, then? Also love how the little comic you posted says that "females" are only into nerdy hobbies for attention and that the reason gatekeeping is good is because it keeps those icky girls out of it. Which is fucking hilarious because manga, Final Fantasy, etc were all looked down upon by these people for being filled with icky girls. Of course it's not the "experience" part that is the strawman, and you know that. The strawmen is the assumption that they are now "Comicgaters", as well as thinking it was all because of "more woman", i dare say it was quite a gymnastic to reach that. Also, it isn't about girls per se: Girls were always welcome as long as acted like everyone else in the fanbase, i had lot's of talks with girls were i just noticed they were girls when i wnet to read their names. Yet, when it's a girl that doesn't wanna abide with the culture, i notice it is a girls just by the way she writes. By reasons of evolutionary psychology, women are less prone to end up in cultures like the weeb culture. That being said, an abnormal increase in women is not the cause of the problem, but merely a sign (And the start of a next level) of "normietization" in a community, meaning that for normie girls to get in, a lot of normie men already came in, and normie girls coming only causes a spiral. Coming to think of it, it really doesn't have to do with girls, but with culture war, is just that with something binary such as gender accidental patterns may be found. TL;DR: It doesn't have to do with girls, is just that men have a bigger chance to fit in the behaviour the group wants. |
| @HeruruMeruru And it's not like they hate women either (Heck, can't you notice that saying that everyone that disagrees with you in this point hates women simply makes this debate childish?). It's just that people from different groups/backgrounds will tend to act differently. I remember back in the days were i was mainly playing Support on LoL, for those who don't know, at least in the brazillian community, there's a stigma that Support players tend do be women or LGBT. Well, the truth is actually the inverse of the stigma: It was actually women and LGBT players that tended to main Support. So when browsing forums and stuff i would always see tons of comments and threads on about "How supports aren't valued by the community & etc", however never in my support games (And that was quite a number) i noticed that, i actually felt i was treated just like any other role. Those threads were usually something like "No one commends me for placing wards or supporting the team", for which i would always respond "Does anyone commend the ADCarry for farming minions? No, because that's his function and he is expected to do it". A same situation, but people with different worldviews you somehow view it differently, and that's the case with girls in communities: It's not that hard: Considering that a lot of our society is ginocentric, girls that don't abide to the communities customs will try to change them, and for that they will use the betas in such community that follow them, and them will call all who disagree with such changes "incels". Then some of these people will end up with a video like "Why women destroy civilizations" or something like that because of the YouTube algorithmim and think "Huh, that explain a lot", and then will begin watching Stefan Molyneux or other MGTOW channels and then bang, the damage is done, now you have a schizm in the community with two sides that hate eachother. You could have prevented that, you just had to gatekeep. The community would be smaller, for sure, but there would still be women, people wouldn't see them as "destroyers" and the general climate would be more peaceful, so culture would thrive. |
| Anime was never worth gatekeeping lol. It's just a hobby bros. |
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...Except anime and manga is one of the most female dominated fandoms and it's been like that since the early 2000's. [citation needed] Go to any anime convention now or fifteen years ago and you will notice the gender ratio is evenly split (some cons back in the day had slightly more girls than guys) and draws some of the most diverse crowds that would put gaming or comic cons, hell, your average sports game, to shame. Here in my country anime cons stopped being about anime a long time ago (And i really mean it), so i couldn't really say it. Either way, anime cons don't say much, since now we're talking about a niche within a niche (Most people don't go to cons, the weeb community is mostly an internet one). That, of course, supposing such percentages are true, which i really have my doubts, considering that in my country most girls who came to conventions were only there for either cosplaying (And most cosplays would be from mainstream games, and not anime) or for non-anime-related events (That in time became the majority of events), and even so there weren't that many. Even in Japan it's like this, some 60% of doujinka are women and some of the biggest names in manga like CLAMP, Hiromu Arakawa, and Rumiko Takahashi are all women, some of the highest selling manga of all time are shojo and josei, etc. Well, yes (Though i'm also not sure in the percentages), but we are not talking about authors, nor the japanese community, but the western one (In which i would still not understand that part, since as said in my previous posts, the community has nothing against women. It has things about people who can't integrate and want to change the culture, in which women tend to be the majority) |
jal90 said: Nope, I'm questioning the overall phrase and the comparison it makes because it's pretty damn wrong. Love Hina is a harem anime about a male MC surrounded by sexy/fetishized girls. This is not the kind of story feminists would be fine with. And it's dumb as fuck, and childish, to assume that "abusing males" is any sort of redeeming factor to that when this """abuse""" is just another fetish thrown in the blender. I don't think anyone is suggesting feminists must be in favor of Love Hina. That is not automatically implied by invoking Love Hina as an example that something the opposite of a feminist would dislike. As far as anime go, Love Hina specifically seems to attract complaints about violence against men. Or at least did in the old days, which is why I'm sure it came to mind for the author. Or that men's right activists would even interpret this trope as some sort of attack to their masculine integrity in a fucking harem show that celebrates being the love interest of multiple good-looking girls. Guess what, men's rights' activists are that dumb. I'm not here debating whether those complaints are valid (I don't think they are), but I'm pointing out they exist. The same way there are guys both in the Western fandom and in Japan who think that moe is feminizing and infantilizing men. For example, consider Takashi Murakami's Little Boy exhibition in 2003 that describes Japan as an infantilized, fatherless nation-state, kept down by the USA- of significance is that Murakami invokes the anime aesthetic as part of the childishness of postwar Japan (childish because it cannot exercise force like the adult United States). There is most certainly an argument to be made for anime as a target of criticism by neo-nationalist or other whatever other Western position is advocating for a harsher masculinity. There's probably not anything outrageously wrong in the article except that, but that tells me a lot about the author's poor attempt at being neutral on the matter, and it makes the whole stance dishonest. if it's not obvious by now, here's the problem with your take- whether or not two political camps are moral equivalents is irrelevant. What matters is that feminists exist and a reactionary element exists. If there are anime that can be attacked by both camps, it will be. I don't think that's an unreasonable or dishonest position at all. You're doing an awful lot of putting words in the author's mouth and getting yourself bent out of shape over nothing. By the way, "trap" is a Western term originating from a Western meme, so no, not a very good example to show deep knowledge about Japanese culture. By using the example of femboys / traps, etc. in this instance, I'm talking about familiarity with an element of anime culture, which is obviously not necessarily Japanese culture. In the case of Catherine Full Body, I've seen a reviewer try to equate a femboy with a transwoman, when they are not the same- in order to make baseless statements about Japanese attitudes to transwomen. What I am trying to say is that we need reviewers to be conversant in both Japaense and anime culture. Someone must've really pissed in your cheerios. |
glassknucklesOct 3, 2019 12:56 AM
| @glassknuckles I appreciate your answers and see your point. That said, you are showing too much concern about my emotions when I just said that the comparison didn't apply and that it said a lot about how the author perceived both sides. As far as I know, talking in a forum is not the same as crying. On the trap/femboy vs trans talk: crossdressers exist in the West as well, it's not so ingrained in the anime culture, and interpreting a non-trans character as trans is either a mistake regardless of context or an active push for death of the author, which we could debate if it's fine or not. Either way, all I'm saying here is that this is not a matter of knowledge of Japan and/or anime but of the show's own context which is individual. And as said, the very concept and meaning of "trap" is a Western take on these kinds of characters, which is why it's a confusing choice when you want to talk about having knowledge of anime and use this specific example. |
jal90Oct 3, 2019 1:57 AM
| Did the opposite of gate keeping for years or at least tried to do so. Never was able to get people into anime that weren't already into it or part of the Western target group. True, anime has gotten some traction but it still is niche and current trends might even reverse. There are not bombs like AoT every year to keep 'normies' satisfied with the medium. Did not know that something like 'Gate keeping' even existed and it is a unnecessary waste of time. |
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| I want the greatest anime like Eva, Utena, Princess Tutu, Shinsekai Yori etc. to be seen by as many people as possible. Everyone should know their brilliance. |
A_Sad_Dust_Cloud said: BlackPilled said: Keep normies and sjw's away from the anime. They are not anime fans anyway. They only infiltrate communities pretending to be fans in order to push their politics on to other like they did with other forms of entertainment in the west. We don't want anime to become like comic and movie industry in the west. You know it doesn't really help your point when said point is surrounded by drawings of small children being sexualised. Feels like you might've shot yourself in the foot there, my dude. Lolis are not actual children they are nothing more then harmless drawings. Digibro made an excellent video on this topic |
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| if people wanted to keep "normies" away from anime they should have started 7 years ago. imagine thinking that you can still keep them away, as if only us basement dwellers are the ones who have heard of this thing called anime and everyone else and their grandma totally hasn't seen what it is. is this bait? |
| Oh god. We're not heading towards an animegate, are we? I don't want to be caught in that shitstorm, keep those gates away from us! |
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