Setsuei said: I don't know. I think complete silence in certain scenes would make said scenes kind of boring. I claim that complete silence should be used more often, that can make a lot of scenes very intense. "What is that character thinking?" is a question I would like seeing more shows use. |
Safeanew said: Dialogue can't take the backseat because that would be the same as story taking the backseat. -> Just read Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway and you will understand that this is wrong. There isn't necessarily an opposition between hearing the character's thoughts and the story progressing.The thoughts are part of the story, they are even its main driving force. Safeanew said: It still can be bad for storytelling even if most people enjoy it. Yes, in your conception of storytelling, which is different that that of the majority, so to everyone else, it is irrelevant. Safeanew said: This is not always true, Ulysses is a pretty hard book.people like inner monologues because it is easy to understand. |
| @Safeanew "Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself." -> This is most likely scientifically wrong, it is just a topos of philosophy but neurosciences disprove it : https://www.cairn.info/revue-etudes-2001-3-page-345.htm#pa5 Language and thought are distinct, since aphasic people think. |
thizlasApr 26, 2019 11:21 AM
| I assume you don't really read too often. That's a shallow statement with little to no basis on actual literature or point of view settings. |
“What are you scared of? Nothing good has ever come from fear.” – Kawabuchi Sentarou |
| @changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this. Safeanew said: right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out?Comander-07 said: What a character thinks is as far away from lies as possible, unless he lies about himself. So you say the inside of the mind does not exist? .. Do you even think? HOW. I think (hehe) Im onto something here. Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself. Our thoughts are just lies to make our actions meaningful to ourselves. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
thizlas said: Safeanew said: Dialogue can't take the backseat because that would be the same as story taking the backseat. -> Just read Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway and you will understand that this is wrong. There isn't necessarily an opposition between hearing the character's thoughts and the story progressing.The thoughts are part of the story, they are even its main driving force. Safeanew said: It still can be bad for storytelling even if most people enjoy it. Yes, in your conception of storytelling, which is different that that of the majority, so to everyone else, it is irrelevant. Safeanew said: This is not always true, Ulysses is a pretty hard book.people like inner monologues because it is easy to understand. I will look up Fräulein Else or Mrs Dalloway. Not everyone else, there can be people that agree with me even if most don't. Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues? I am not really sold in trying to read books that use inner monologue just because they use inner monologue, but I will try the other two. I already know my taste is strange so I am looking for people that either agree or have interesting things to say or recommend. Even if I understand what you mean, does not mean I am wrong. We maybe don't even agree what a story is. A story is dialogue, everything except techniques like inner monologue are dialogue. I claim this because inner monologue itself is the avoidance of dialogue. |
Safeanew said: Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues? I don't think it is possible to tell since there is no version without inner monologue that exists. I'm realizing you read neither Mrs Dalloway nor Ulysses and were still talking about how bad inner monologue is, which to anyone who knows anything about literature would seem completely absurd XD But to be more serious, I encourage you to try them out, there are good reasons why they are considered to be two of the most important novels of the 20th century. If you had never heard about them, you might want to study literature y a bit more before making statements about it. |
thizlas said: @Safeanew "Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself." -> This is most likely scientifically wrong, it is just a topos of philosophy but neurosciences disprove it : https://www.cairn.info/revue-etudes-2001-3-page-345.htm#pa5 Language and thought are distinct, since aphasic people think. What is the main arguments of that link? Aphasic people seem to still understand formulaic expressions, is there any aphasic people without any language related ability and how can one prove their intelligence. How does one prove someone can have internal monologues? |
Comander-07 said: @changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this. Safeanew said: right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out?Yes we think, but there is no inside of the mind, the mind is not a seperate place but part of language itself. Our thoughts are just lies to make our actions meaningful to ourselves. Yes because speaking is an action, inner monologue is not. |
thizlas said: Safeanew said: Is Ulysses harder because of the inner monologues? I don't think it is possible to tell since there is no version without inner monologue that exists. I'm realizing you read neither Mrs Dalloway nor Ulysses and were still talking about how bad inner monologue is, which to anyone who knows anything about literature would seem completely absurd XD But to be more serious, I encourage you to try them out, there are good reasons why they are considered to be two of the most important novels of the 20th century. If you had never heard about them, you might want to study literature y a bit more before making statements about it. Well my claim was mostly about anime, but it is also a more general philosophical claim so it have to do with novels too. I claim the novel The Metamorphosis would be better without inner monologue. I still really like it, but inner monologue is a flaw. |
| When I want to say something I tend to have screening in my head. I tend to talk on my mind on hypothetical scenario of what my word that I want to utter will be replied and how should I proceed after that. That's how my inner mind work. Don't mind me because this is already 2 a.m here and I just rambling. |
 Kickstarter for Rokujouma is fully funded. Good work everyone. Lets wait for the result of our hard work together. |
| Well,I think there is this immense use of characters monologue because of problems due to budget and animation.There are almost any monologue in movies because you can tell from the espression of the actors.If this would happen in anime then there would be a higher number of money and time spent for getting a better animation so better facial expressions |
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Safeanew said: Setsuei said: I don't know. I think complete silence in certain scenes would make said scenes kind of boring. I claim that complete silence should be used more often, that can make a lot of scenes very intense. "What is that character thinking?" is a question I would like seeing more shows use. I get what your saying, but personally I'd rather not have to play some kind of guessing game every time there's a pause in dialogue . That may be fine for some scenes but I would argue others are better with the inner thoughts. |
Safeanew said: Yeah the Chimera Ant Arc invasion would be better if it was completely silent. All those thoughts distract from what is actually happening. Then turn the volume completely of while watching it |
Safeanew said: What is the main arguments of that link? Aphasic people seem to still understand formulaic expressions, is there any aphasic people without any language related ability and how can one prove their intelligence. There are several points, and some of them far exceed my knowledge, but the main one is that there is such a thing as non-verbal thought. Among the evidence they use, are the facts that people whose part of the left hemisphere that controls language was destroyed are still able to fair well in non-verbal formal tests. What's more, the study of people whose two hemispheres were isolated shows that the right hemisphere, even though it is not the one language is located in, is capable of learning, taking decisions and making logical choices in a way that doesn't seem to be simply automatic. Some animals and humans who don't yet know/haven't been taught language are also able to think very well. Artificial neuron networks, which seem to be able to produce thought without using language, also suggest the possibility that the brain, at its core, could think in a non-symbolic manner. Keep in mind that the article is more than 15 years old though, and that it might be outdated. It's the only article I could easily find in French, but there are probably plenty of others in English available on the Internet. This one, for instance, seems interesting : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874898/# |
Safeanew said: why is speaking to yourself an action and thinking is not? Why is it suddenly relevant if its an action?Comander-07 said: @changelog TBH Im not quite sure if I want this change. Like I said, for me R2 is the ultimate ending. Any installment after it kinda negates the achievement the ending was. Any kind of later conflict which doesnt consist of aliens renders the sacrifices useless. I am really conflicted about this one, if I understand the setup for Fukkatsu correctly, it actually builds upon the code theory, so that should be a plus. Im just not sure if I actually want to see what happens later on. The scores for the movies are also not that good compared to the series, which makes me wonder if the changes are worth it only to milk the franchise. But is actually reason enough for me to watch it. Even though it was a crucial part of the story. I guess I just have to trust Sunrise with this. right... but it suddenly changes when someone speaks? Because monologues are okay as long as lips move and sound comes out? Yes because speaking is an action, inner monologue is not. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
EfiChan said: Discussion is not forcing your ideas on others. It feels like the only point of this discussion is to prove yourself right and make all the other change their thoughts. In disscussion you listen to the other not just dismiss it just because it's oposing your thought. Welcome to the average @Safeanew discussion thread. First time? |
| I don't agree. I think monologues are a great way to understand how a character's mind works, and what they truly think about the situation and other characters around them. |
 |
| In that case, how would you ever have a good storytelling if the MC is supposed to be someone introverted. Without the inner dialogue, it's not possible to understand the character's thoughts and beliefs. |
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS. |
CallMeHoot said: Seriously man, I gotta stop replying to you soon because the more you talk, the more it is becoming obvious that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about or what actually makes a good story and I'm getting a little pissed off banging my head against this brick wall. I mean your rhetoric is bordering on delusion at this point. You're not debating. You're provoking. Whether what you're doing here is intentional or not I don't know, but I'ma stick with the idea that you're very, very young and very, very naive. Like i said to someone else in this thread: "Welcome to the average Safeanew discussion thread. First time?" Seriously, this isn't the first time this pretentious fucker puts out a pointless, idiotic garbage thread like this one. Just look up his "escapism" thread on his profile; it's even worse than this one, if you can believe it. Contributing any reasonable argument to them is a massive waste of your time, trust me. Don't bother. |
Stygian_PrisonerApr 26, 2019 3:03 PM
Stygian_Prisoner said: CallMeHoot said: Seriously man, I gotta stop replying to you soon because the more you talk, the more it is becoming obvious that you have no fucking idea what you're talking about or what actually makes a good story and I'm getting a little pissed off banging my head against this brick wall. I mean your rhetoric is bordering on delusion at this point. You're not debating. You're provoking. Whether what you're doing here is intentional or not I don't know, but I'ma stick with the idea that you're very, very young and very, very naive. Like i said to someone else in this thread: "Welcome to the average Safeanew discussion thread. First time?" Seriously, this isn't the first time this pretentious fucker puts out a pointless, idiotic garbage thread like this one. Just look up his "escapism" thread on his profile; it's even worse than this one, if you can believe it. Contributing any reasonable argument to them is a massive waste of your time, trust me. Don't bother. Yeah. Shame you came in late to this particular exercise in self congratulatory delusion that this guy has vomited up from somewhere. Guy hasn't provided a single example, or shown once HOW what he keeps stating as fact is actually proven. I mean we all know he can't, because his argument is ludicrous and entirely unfounded in logic, we know that, but I would have at least respected an honest effort to construct an example. He just wasn't capable of it, only of spouting garbage rhetoric that had no basis in actual reality. I'm fairly sure he hasn't read a single novel. In fact, I'm not fairly sure, I am ENTIRELY sure. Anyway, appreciate the effort to warn me off. I'll stay away from the guys threads in future for sure. He doesn't even know how to debate, let alone engage. I think his idea of a debate is just to keep saying the same basic sentence over and over again no matter the examples people provide, however logical they may be, whilst throwing in the occasional "Oh, I will look that up! But inner monologue is still a flaw in whatever medium it is in! I can't say why that is or give an example of a work of literature where inner monologue detracts from the story but it is because I say it is so there! Ha!". Fuck it. I'm gonna give myself a hernia if I keep thinking about how completely delusional this guy is. I'm not a violent man, but I used to be. If I was in the same room as this goon he would have lost teeth 2 pages ago. I'm outtie. Peace, my dude :) |
   |
| I 100%, wholeheartedly disagree. I think that inner monologues are part of what makes anime unique as a medium, as most live-action (with some exceptions) never dabble in such things. Now excessive inner monologues can be a bad thing, especially when it gets to the point of spoon-feeding the audience information, but as a matter of developing the perspective of a protagonist, that's rarely an issue. |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Sayakadark said: But...but... up to 80% of my conversations in life are in my head. When I read this, the "sad theme" from WataMote was playing in my head. For anyone not familiar with WataMote, don't get the wrong idea. It's a very endearing comedy with surprising emotional heft. It's also very funny. |
|
| I mean... why? Idk if you don't like it ok but there isn't a right storytelling or a wrong storytelling. Why hearing characters' thoughts should be bad? I mean is just another type to tell something to the reader/listener.. I don't get your point tbh... |
 ❅Aoishi❅ ✿My Profile ✿MyAnimeList ✿MyMangaList |
Peaceful_Critic said: Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree. Dude, don't encourage him. Guy is 100% delusional. It would be different if he actually engaged in discourse and was capable of re-evaluating his opinion in light of concrete examples, incontrovertible counter-evidence and compelling counter-arguments...but...he isn't. He's at that pre-undergrad stage of only being able to parrot opinions he has read without applying the critical thought and analysis required to reach his own conclusion, meaning of course that every argument he makes lacks any substance at all. I can quote Jean-Paul Sartre all day, but can I defend his ideas or views? No. Because they aren't mine and I haven't taken the time necessary to go through his larger body of work, think about it, form my own opinion, contrast it to other similar and contrasting ideas and come back with a conclusion. This OP, he's just a parrot, man. He just repeats the same shit. Over. And over. And over. The guy suffers from the biggest case of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen, and if I'm brutally honest, shows a lot of traits seen in high functioning autism. I mean this as a clinical fact. I'm a medical scientist by trade and while my discipline is mainly molecular/cellular I've done enough background reading (and have friends with autistic children) to be fairly confident about it. I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up. And when someone states categorically that removing the inner monologue from Fight Club would improve rather than completely destroy the movie and the story...well...at that point there isn't really anything left to say on the topic. |
CallMeHootApr 26, 2019 3:42 PM
|
| Aren't you the dude that had his first philosophy class a month ago? Yeah, I think i'm skipping this one. |
| The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
Peaceful_Critic said: Yay, I love when Safeanew makes a thread, like everyone is there having a discussion with OP, It's beautiful! I don't care what anyone says aout your thread, in my opinion, your shocking topics is what makes it the best. Often it would be just a simple question, like what's your favorite character from a show you don't like with most people replaying something with a title and a character. However, you put opinions out there that are interesting and unagreeable, so people actually have a conversation. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, and I partly agree. Hard disagree. Being a contrarian just for the sake of being one is stupid. |
| The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
Peaceful_Critic said: CallMeHoot said: "I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up." why is non-adherence to simple logic a symptom of autism? I get the widely different viewpoint, as the brain works differently as to make someone obsessive or not understand social cues, but memory and other intelligence aren't part of it. Also, please back up your claims.Dude, don't encourage him. Guy is 100% delusional. It would be different if he actually engaged in discourse and was capable of re-evaluating his opinion in light of concrete examples, incontrovertible counter-evidence and compelling counter-arguments...but...he isn't. He just repeats the same shit. Over. And over. And over. The guy suffers from the biggest case of cognitive dissonance I've ever seen, and if I'm brutally honest, shows a lot of traits seen in high functioning autism. I mean this as a clinical fact. I'm a medical scientist by trade and while my discipline is mainly molecular/cellular I've done enough background reading (and have friends with autistic children) to be fairly confident about it. I can't say for a fact, obviously, but the abstract, left field viewpoint and non-adherence to simple logic...well...I guess people can make their own mind up. And when someone states categorically that removing the inner monologue from Fight Club would improve rather than completely destroy the movie and the story...well...at that point there isn't really anything left to say on the topic. I never mentioned memory or basic intelligence. I said simple logic but maybe I was wrong and should have said "simple reasoning". Allow me to re-phrase. His obsessive, immovable viewpoint is an autistic trait. Like I said, I didn't state anything as fact, I just said he showed traits, which he does. What claims do you want me to back up? That the guy has spent 5 pages talking nonsense while blithely ignoring every counterpoint and argument directly disproving the trash he was spouting? Go read my post history in this thread (and the rest of the thread while you're at it), it's all there. |
CallMeHootApr 26, 2019 4:01 PM
|
| Wow, this is honestly one of the most stupid things i've ever read. |
 |
| Oh, as an aside, for anyone keeping up with this debacle, the OP seems to have conflated "stream of consciousness" writing with "inner monologue" and thinks the two are essentially the same thing. You don't even need to be widely read or to have studied literature to know that's not the case. If you have a brain and Google, you can figure it out. |
|
| First of all, to imply a tool in storytelling itself is bad is wrongheaded. It is only as good or bad as the author/screenwriter/director utilizes it. Second of all, inner monologues are different from straight exposition. While straight exposition is just dumping info about the world or story, inner monologues have a special conditions that makes them useful storytelling tools. One, that they can convey or emphasize ideas that otherwise would not be able to merely be shown, and two, the narrator of an inner monologue is not omnipresent of a situation i.e. they have their own voice that may not reliably reflect the reality of their world. Also known as unreliable narrators. By saying inner monologues are bad, you are also saying unreliable narrators are bad, which is wrong and stupid because they often make for really engaging stories. |
| *sigh* Whelp! Enough MAL for me today. |
| honest to god - returning to this thread i hoped for reason and resolution, instead i'm reading about turning the volume down of media and using games that restrict exposure to literary devices for gameplay as supporting statements for OP. i can confirm this exemplary discussion has truly hit rock bottom and all participants should face the mountain in single combat. |
| the official MAL hall of fame/cursed comments is now open for business - you are welcome to PM me any potential quotes to include |
Peaceful_Critic said: Ah, we disagree, get in line. #the30characterlimitisusefuluntilyouspamorhastagit Aight, have fun engaging in pointless discourse but i'm peacing out. |
AstZeroApr 26, 2019 5:04 PM
| The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
| I disagree. Some of the brightest minds have the loudest minds, but are quiet most of the time. Speaking is silver, while silence is gold. |
| Sorry, due to licensing limitations, this message is unavailable in your region. Please come drink tea, eat cake and procrastinate at the Cute Girls Doing Cute Things Club. We have simulwatches! \o/  |
Peaceful_Critic said: CallMeHoot said: Are you sure? it wasn't listed: https://www.medicinenet.com/autism_symptoms_and_signs/symptoms.htmI never mentioned memory or basic intelligence. I said simple logic but maybe I was wrong and should have said "simple reasoning". Allow me to re-phrase. His obsessive, immovable viewpoint is an autistic trait. Like I said, I didn't state anything as fact, I just said he showed traits, which he does. What claims do you want me to back up? That the guy has spent 5 pages talking nonsense while blithely ignoring every counterpoint and argument directly disproving the trash he was spouting? Go read my post history in this thread (and the rest of the thread while you're at it), it's all there. What an unfair comparison: "She stormed across the room and slammed the door on her way out." "She felt anger rise in her, like black bile in her throat. The door slammed as she stormed out.". You put extra more expressive words there like "black bile in her throat" with wording that flowed better. " About to murder them Eliza red-faced with steam flowing out of her head slammed the door as she stormed out." There you go, a better example =). Okay, sorry, we weren't talking about that. Yeah, I see what you mean as when you asked for a more solid example they didn't give you one instead stating why they thought that: "This is a philosophical stance inspired by a philosopher and literary critic named Mikhail Bakhtin that is specialised on novels. He claims that everything is dialogues and that the novels main task is to depict dialogue based on ones own experience with dialogue. He is agaisnt what he calls poetic language that is unambigous language. Language should always be portrayed in an ambigous form." However, to criticize you a little, you were mean("I think it's very naive of you (and perhaps you aren't as well read as you might think) if you are under the false assumption that "dialogue is everything", because it simply isn't.") What they said is an opinion, why attack their character already? "The nicest way possible thing", just highlights how this is an insult. Yes, I'm sure. Not every trait is normative, but there are plenty on there that are and which he exhibits :- Repeating Words or Phrases Problems With Two-Way Conversation Using Odd Words or Phrases Intense Focus on One Topic There's only so much you can glean from someones written word, but I'm fairly confident about it. I mean, the autistic spectrum is broad and to a degree every person alive exhibits various traits that fall somewhere on that spectrum...it's generally the degree and the severity that lead to diagnosis. But look, I'm not a psychologist, I'm a molecular scientist. So me saying I'm sure, is just for me. Could I be wrong? Sure. I think I stated that already. Moving on. I wouldn't say your example was better. No offense intended, and I mean that. I can see you're a reasonable person who's willing to at least engage in debate, even if viewpoints don't ultimately align, but my example perfectly illustrated the point I was making at that particular moment, which was that the conveyance of feeling and emotion without dialogue (which the OP said was not important at all, if you read the comment he made to which I was replying you will see this) can add to the story or provide clarity. His reply was both nonsensical AND didn't have anything to do with the point under discussion, instead he went off on a tangent about language and ambiguity. Look, you're right about me being mean. I own that. I was losing my patience at that point (and if you read my later comments you will see that I eventually proceeded to totally lose it) and went on to say meaner things. No, it isn't big and it isn't clever but when you're talking to a guy that quite literally does not engage with a word you say and just comes back with some nonsensical shite every time you make a valid point...well...it's frustrating. Especially when he wasn't actually just stating his opinion, but arguing for his opinion as unassailable fact. Anyway, it's late and I'm tired. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and not being a total tool, as I'm sure I've come across as one in my posts with you, but that was not my intention. I mean I've got 15 years on you and just through pure length of time I've likely read more and watched more fiction that you have at this point (unless you're a really fucking hardcore reader/cinephile, in which case feel free to tell me I'm full of shit) and just hearing this guy who has evidently (according to some others in the thread who've seen his other posts) just taken his first philosophy class try to pass off some half-baked dross as fact while discounting out of hand all I know through experience to be marks of good storytelling is just...well...yeah. Irritating to say the least. Anyway, sorry for the novel. It's late. I'm knackered. Thanks for recognising that the guy didn't provide what I asked for and thanks again for calling me out on being mean (getting some flack about that is humbling) and also not being a tool. Peace. |
CallMeHootApr 26, 2019 5:14 PM
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| I disagree, there is no need to over-complicate things. What you suggest does work for some genres but would be a serious detraction from others. Plus, that would mean the death the hilarious non-verbalized super snarky or insulting one-liners that characters like Kyon (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) think while they do/say something else because of tact. If all those were verbalized, the character would do nothing but argue and yell at each other every episode and that would damn annoying and if they were removed and replaced with silence the anime would be less funny. It's a lose/lose situation. |
KruszerApr 26, 2019 5:28 PM
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
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