Forum Settings
Forums

Hearing character's thoughts is bad storytelling!

This topic has been locked and is no longer available for discussion.
Pages (11) [1] 2 3 » ... Last »
 
#1
Apr 26, 5:01 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
The most important thing in storytelling is dialogue.
Hearing character's thoughts hinder dialogue by filling up moments of silence.

Edit: I am not against using inner monologue, my claim is that it is seperate from the story.
The story is narration, action, background and dialogue.
Inner monologue is more like poetry, it is used to convey emotions in an abstract way.
Inner monologue distracts from the story because it is unrelated and fills up space that the story could have used.
"I want a hamburger, the little girl thought" is an example of inner monologue in written form.
This is poetry and unrelated to anything that happens in the story.

Edit2: An example in anime is Bloom Into You that uses inner monologue a lot.

Edit3: I am for first person narration, it is different than hearing a persons thoughts because it adresses the audience.

Edit4:The story is everything except poetry, poetry is 'monologic' as in one type of logic.

To cite Mikhail Bakhtin in his criticism of poetry in Dostoevsky from the english wikipedia article: "Nothing conclusive has yet taken place in the world, the ultimate word of the world and about the world has not yet been spoken, the world is open and free, everything is still in the future and will always be in the future".

This is his idea of 'unfinalizability' that means that a person cannot be objectively understood and we can never hold the whole truth.
One still need 'external finalization' (definition, description, causal or genetic explanation etc) and one can't avoid it.

Monologic use of language on the other hand works similar to "opposites come together, look at one another, are reflected in one another, know and understand one another.", this means that people magically understand what they do not understand, their antagonist or opposite.
Modified by Safeanew, Apr 29, 4:03 AM
 
#2
Apr 26, 5:07 AM

Offline
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 126
I presume you have never read a novel.
 
#3
Apr 26, 5:10 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Tannhauser said:
I presume you have never read a novel.


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel.
 
#4
Apr 26, 5:11 AM
Offline
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 614
What about situations that require no dialogue (e.g. Chimera Ant Arc invasion), or where it would be weird to include it? You could go for a narrator instead of making everyone in the scene monologue, but people will still complain.

Can't please everyone, I guess.
 
#5
Apr 26, 5:16 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
AmMar-Sama said:
What about situations that require no dialogue (e.g. Chimera Ant Arc invasion), or where it would be weird to include it? You could go for a narrator instead of making everyone in the scene into long-ass monologues, but people will still complain.

Can't please everyone, I guess.


Yeah the Chimera Ant Arc invasion would be better if it was completely silent.
All those thoughts distract from what is actually happening.
 
#6
Apr 26, 5:18 AM

Online
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4163
Safeanew said:
Tannhauser said:
I presume you have never read a novel.


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel

This is why I prefer the Harry Potter movies to the novels. Anything not in the movies is unnecessary.
ESTP | siscon | lolicon | ♥ rape hentai



There will be a blog link here eventually!


Filter my anime list by fetish:
Ass - Boxing - Bunny - Catfight - S&M - Wrestling
 
#7
Apr 26, 5:22 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17927
So we are at the point where people say that monologue is bad.
"Kickstarter for Rokujouma physical book will be live this fall. Be sure to back it up guys."
 
#8
Apr 26, 5:23 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 893
i have to disagree
yakusoku no neverland is a perfect example why the anime should have implemented the inner monologues, that was the reason its inferior to the manga


//depends on the anime though probably
Modified by DenkiDestroy99X, Apr 26, 5:27 AM
 
#9
Apr 26, 5:23 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
IpreferEcchi said:
Safeanew said:


This apply to novels too, hearing what the character thinks is bad for the novel

This is why I prefer the Harry Potter movies to the novels. Anything not in the movies is unnecessary.


I don't agree with that.
There is a lot more than hearing characters thoughts that separate the novel and the movie.
 
Apr 26, 5:24 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 13196
Looking at you favorites, as far as I remember Log Horizon has a lot of inner monologues. At least try to be coherent with what you’re saying
 
Apr 26, 5:24 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
NeoAnkara said:
So we are at the point where people say that monologue is bad.


No spoken monologue is fine, hearing character's thought are bad.
 
Apr 26, 5:25 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Xenocrisi said:
Looking at you favorites, Log Horizon as far as I remember has a lot of inner monologues. At least try to be coherent with what you’re saying


A work can have flaws and still be a favorite.
 
Apr 26, 5:27 AM

Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2701
Ypu can't make death note without inner monologue. You have to look at raito and guess he's saying "just as planned" or "I'll take a potato chip". It's good irl when you don't have to listen to your gf complaining but in anime is very good, I recommend it.
"Even if there's a wide world and stories
beyond the main focus, I don't think
it's necessary to end with the protagonist having
been involved in everything." - Yagi Norihiro
 
Apr 26, 5:27 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Daphi said:
i have to disagree
yakusoku no neverland is a perfect example why the anime should have implemented the inner monologues, that was the reason its inferior to the manga


I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up.
Why does the inner monologues need to be included?
 
Apr 26, 5:28 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 650
Character thoughts are important forms of storytelling because there are some things that just cannot be conveyed via facial expression, body language, or dialogue. In some sense, I'd even argue that monologues are character thoughts because they are conveying thoughts verbally.
“Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric

"Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki

I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that.
 
Apr 26, 5:28 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 13196
Safeanew said:
Daphi said:
i have to disagree
yakusoku no neverland is a perfect example why the anime should have implemented the inner monologues, that was the reason its inferior to the manga


I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up.
Why does the inner monologues need to be included?

Because they often explain why the character is doing or feeling so
 
Apr 26, 5:28 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 893
Safeanew said:
Daphi said:
i have to disagree
yakusoku no neverland is a perfect example why the anime should have implemented the inner monologues, that was the reason its inferior to the manga


I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up.
Why does the inner monologues need to be included?


i feel it gives a better understanding of whats going on in a particular situation at least in this particular anime, it also added to the character depth / attached me more to the characters by understanding their thought process better in general, therefore gave the characters a little bit more depth and value
it just added to the storytelling imo
 
Apr 26, 5:30 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Catalano said:
Ypu can't make death note without inner monologue. You have to look at raito and guess he's saying "just as planned" or "I'll take a potato chip". It's good irl when you don't have to listen to your gf complaining but in anime is very good, I recommend it.


Death note can be made without inner monologues, I am not against a narrator if one wants to use it and showing rather than telling can work wonders.
 
Apr 26, 5:31 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
GaryMuffuginOak said:
Character thoughts are important forms of storytelling because there are some things that just cannot be conveyed via facial expression, body language, or dialogue. In some sense, I'd even argue that monologues are character thoughts because they are conveying thoughts verbally.


There are things that should not be expressed, the only thing hearing character's thought do is distract from the story.
 
Apr 26, 5:34 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Xenocrisi said:
Safeanew said:


I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up.
Why does the inner monologues need to be included?

Because they often explain why the character is doing or feeling so


It is bad to explain that! It hinders from telling a story because instead of getting to know the characters the audience get stuck in there own ideal version of the story.
 
Apr 26, 5:34 AM

Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2701
I like my anime in 1st person not 3rd. Maybe it's just a taste thing. Separate question: who is best girl from mikagura gakuen? I can't decide between killing art edgy girl and that crazy girl who speak in 3rd person.
"Even if there's a wide world and stories
beyond the main focus, I don't think
it's necessary to end with the protagonist having
been involved in everything." - Yagi Norihiro
 
Apr 26, 5:34 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4307
Hearing thoughts of characters will at the very least make the viewer more receptive to ifea of latching into whatever that said character represents and in turn makes the ideas presented by the work be more understood in a visceral level. How is this bad?
 
Apr 26, 5:35 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17927
Safeanew said:
NeoAnkara said:
So we are at the point where people say that monologue is bad.


No spoken monologue is fine, hearing character's thought are bad.
That's just rambling. For what did intent to do?
"Kickstarter for Rokujouma physical book will be live this fall. Be sure to back it up guys."
 
Apr 26, 5:35 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Daphi said:
Safeanew said:


I can't comment on the yakusoku no neverland but I will look it up.
Why does the inner monologues need to be included?


i feel it gives a better understanding of whats going on in a particular situation at least in this particular anime, it also added to the character depth / attached me more to the characters by understanding their thought process better in general, therefore gave the characters a little bit more depth and value
it just added to the storytelling imo


That is why I am against it, understanding characters is bad for storytelling and the dialogue.
 
Apr 26, 5:36 AM

Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 179
Tannhauser said:
I presume you have never read a novel.


According to the OP the storytelling in the modern literature is simply shit.
 
Apr 26, 5:38 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
CapitalistGod said:
Hearing thoughts of characters will at the very least make the viewer more receptive to ifea of latching into whatever that said character represents and in turn makes the ideas presented by the work be more understood in a visceral level. How is this bad?


I don't want the audience more receptive, I want good stories that try to show what really happens rather than hide the things that happen because the audience can't accept them.
 
Apr 26, 5:39 AM

Online
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 271
I would rather hear a character's thought, than having them speak their thoughts out loud even when they're alone.
 
Apr 26, 5:40 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Anhesenaton said:
Tannhauser said:
I presume you have never read a novel.


According to the OP the storytelling in the modern literature is simply shit.


Yeah there is a lot of bad practices, I like anime often more for a reason.
 
Apr 26, 5:41 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Digital_Shiroi said:
I would rather hear a character's thought, than having them speak their thoughts out loud even when they're alone.


Why do you dislike one of the greatest of arts, spoken monologue?
 
Apr 26, 5:42 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 93
The only true solution is to incorporate mime into every anime and act out all character thoughts in visual form.
whats a signature
 
Apr 26, 5:44 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
skipped said:
The only true solution is to incorporate mime into every anime and act out all character thoughts in visual form.


Or rather why do you need to know what other think?
Can they not just say what they want to say and do what they want to do.
 
Apr 26, 5:48 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Catalano said:
I like my anime in 1st person not 3rd. Maybe it's just a taste thing. Separate question: who is best girl from mikagura gakuen? I can't decide between killing art edgy girl and that crazy girl who speak in 3rd person.


I don't mind using the main character as a narrator, I just don't want to hear the character thinking.
 
Apr 26, 5:52 AM

Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 27
Safeanew said:

No spoken monologue is fine, hearing character's thought are bad.


How is this different, though?
Say you have the character in an empty room reflecting on something - what is the difference if they say it out loud ... to no one ... or just think it and the readers/viewers get to see it?
The result is the same ...

Or do you think that you are able to understand someone's future actions just by their past actions, and therefore thoughts should not be needed?
 
Apr 26, 5:53 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4307
@safeanew it's in by no means hiding what really happens. These actually reveals much more information about the character. Sure, I can see the merits of a story without it but I don't see how it removes the validity of it as a perfectly acceptable story device.
 
Apr 26, 5:56 AM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 6344
Some things aren't meant to be said out loud but help us understand a character's actions better.
"No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!"
 
Apr 26, 5:56 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Karrwin said:
Safeanew said:

No spoken monologue is fine, hearing character's thought are bad.


How is this different, though?
Say you have the character in an empty room reflecting on something - what is the difference if they say it out loud ... to no one ... or just think it and the readers/viewers get to see it?
The result is the same ...

Or do you think that you are able to understand someone's future actions just by their past actions, and therefore thoughts should not be needed?


I don't want to understand someone's future actions, I want to be surprised. If a character says something out loud then someone would hear it if they where close, if that character just thought something no one would here it.
That is a large difference.
 
Apr 26, 5:58 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 259
So you're basically saying that inner thoughts distract the audience from the actual story but monologues not? What kind of logic is that?
 
Apr 26, 5:58 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
CapitalistGod said:
@safeanew it's in by no means hiding what really happens. These actually reveals much more information about the character. Sure, I can see the merits of a story without it but I don't see how it removes the validity of it as a perfectly acceptable story device.


I would relate this to randomly throwing in a poem into the story. The story takes a break for the poem and then gets back to the story. What a character thinks has nothing to do with the story.
 
Apr 26, 5:59 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 13196
Safeanew said:
Daphi said:


i feel it gives a better understanding of whats going on in a particular situation at least in this particular anime, it also added to the character depth / attached me more to the characters by understanding their thought process better in general, therefore gave the characters a little bit more depth and value
it just added to the storytelling imo


That is why I am against it, understanding characters is bad for storytelling and the dialogue.

Yo what the hell are you even talking about lmao
 
Apr 26, 5:59 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
CatSoul said:
Some things aren't meant to be said out loud but help us understand a character's actions better.


Then we should not hear it in the first place. Understanding character's actions is always bad when we could be exposed to not understanding them.
 
Apr 26, 6:02 AM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 6344
Safeanew said:
CatSoul said:
Some things aren't meant to be said out loud but help us understand a character's actions better.


Then we should not hear it in the first place. Understanding character's actions is always bad when we could be exposed to not understanding them.


So you'd prefer an anime where you don't understand the motivations for any character or why they're doing the things they're doing?
"No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!"
 
Apr 26, 6:03 AM

Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 13669
Silent anime such as Joshikausi are objectively speaking masterpieces.
Kokoro did nothing wrong.

 
Apr 26, 6:03 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
CatSoul said:
Safeanew said:


Then we should not hear it in the first place. Understanding character's actions is always bad when we could be exposed to not understanding them.


So you'd prefer an anime where you don't understand the motivations for any character or why they're doing the things they're doing?


Yes that is the point of a story, otherwise poems would be better if you want to understand.
 
Apr 26, 6:03 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4307
@safeanew What characters(at least the important and prominent ones) think actually has everything to a story. I mean their motivations is enough to move a story along and thought lies behind every motivation. This is basic storytelling.
 
Apr 26, 6:06 AM
Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3238
Yeah, anyone can make a character babble their thoughts and spell out the story. What takes skill is conveying their thoughts and telling the story in general, through natural dialogue, body language, and actions of the characters, along with good use of the camera, art and animation (in case of anime).
 
Apr 26, 6:06 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 13196
Safeanew said:
CatSoul said:


So you'd prefer an anime where you don't understand the motivations for any character or why they're doing the things they're doing?


Yes that is the point of a story, otherwise poems would be better if you want to understand.

No, what you’re saying is complete nonsense, you know that right? Not everything is explained through actions, so inner monologues are NEEDED, or else too many things wouldn’t make sense to us making the anime look like complete crap. Whether you like them or not
 
Apr 26, 6:09 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
CapitalistGod said:
@safeanew What characters(at least the important and prominent ones) think actually has everything to a story. I mean their motivations is enough to move a story along and thought lies behind every motivation. This is basic storytelling.


If that is basic storytelling, then I am against basic storytelling.
A story is dialogues between different people, a story can even be a one person monologue. But I am not interested in the character's motivations, I am interested in their actions. They can think all they want, but I don't want to hear it, because I don't have anything to do with what they think.
 
Apr 26, 6:13 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 565
Xenocrisi said:
Safeanew said:


Yes that is the point of a story, otherwise poems would be better if you want to understand.

No, what you’re saying is complete nonsense, you know that right? Not everything is explained through actions, so inner monologues are NEEDED, or else too many things wouldn’t make sense to us making the anime look like complete crap. Whether you like them or not


Why do you need explanations?
Just form your own opinions instead of having the author explain what your opinions should be.
 
Apr 26, 6:15 AM

Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 281
Inner monologue helps us understand what the character is thinking? A characters thoughts help the tension build? Inner monologue helps us see each characters perspective?
If conversation is the only form of speech then how would we understand the characters, you want them to think out loud or something?
su#4790
 
Apr 26, 6:15 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 93
I imagined Safeanew narrating every thing they do even when completely alone and couldn't stop laughing.

"I am tired so I am now going to bed"
"I must run to catch the bus or I will be late to school and get detention. I really wish that I was able to wake up with my alarm by my phisiology prevents it. Why did no one wake me up. Are they trying to make me late?" *Concerned onlookers watch a student sprint by while babbling like a madman.*
whats a signature
 
This topic has been locked and is no longer available for discussion.
Top
Pages (11) [1] 2 3 » ... Last »