Mob Psycho 100 II Episode 5 Discussion

L0ken said:


Because the illusion is just the instrument of Mogami who is the villan to force his kinda nihilistic worldview and change Mob and he technicaly succeeded first time?Narratively it teased the possibility of dark Mob and complete change of his persona which should be intriguing and interesting for viewer?

I guess you just considering all this purely from the point of Mobs character,but there is other characters around who benifit for this decision,just look how much spotlight reigen and especially dimple got in this,which is crucial for their development as well,not mention side-characters fates,if mob just realized whole point himself Dimple wouldn't have his personal moment with Mob,also concluding his confrontation with Mogami,which is all important for his character later.Again the events from this whole episode would affect many characters,so why would it be better if events were as you described?

bitchassdarius said:


You can not be in denial about Dimple not directly bestowing a Mob with a lesson, but what I actually said was "If you don't see how Dimple is actually leading Mob to this conclusion and it's not Mob achieving self-realization, you're in plain denial." Your second sentence is this. Your refusal to accept how the dialogue was written doesn't change how the dialogue was written. Dimple could have simply said "Remember your brother, Ritsu? Remember your school club? Remember your friend Hanazawa?" But he outlines how the relationships have changed Mob, and he even directly reminds Mob of the morals Reigen tries to instill in him. Mob doesn't recall this himself, it's only after Reigen calls him and Dimple says "Stop using your powers for dumb things in this dumb world" that Mob remembers. This insinuates that this code of conduct wasn't instilled into Mob's subconscious strong enough for it to be emerge latently, i.e. there's no proof of Mob's growth here. I'm not "giving Dimple too much credit" by quoting the dialogue. There's no eisegesis when all I'm doing is citing what was actually said. This is how the dialogue was written, and your insistent refusal of the writing doesn't change that.



That might not have been Mogami's explicit MO, but that's essentially what the illusion amounts to. The only way Mob would be able to empathize with Mogami's misanthropy is if he had a different life, which boils down to "what if Mob was a different person?" Mogami's attempt to prove Mob's values wrong by changing the history of Mob's experience doesn't work as an actual (informal) "argument." This is the whole idea behind the danger of "Mob losing his sense of self." Really, Mogami's just rewriting Mob as a person, and it should be up to Mob to somehow find the will within himself to remain as he is, self intact, against Mogami's illusion. However, it's shown that he is incapable, in fact he almost loses, but only survives due to Dimple interfering. If Dimple hadn't saved him, Mob would have lost. This fact should tell you that Mob values did indeed falter under the illusory conditions, meaning his "growth" isn't actually substantial. The development should have stemmed from Mob self-realizing under Mogami's illusion, but instead it's a result from Dimple snapping Mob out of the illusion by explicitly remind him of how his relationships have changed him (see above reply to deg).

bitchassdarius said:


You can not be in denial about Dimple not directly bestowing a Mob with a lesson, but what I actually said was "If you don't see how Dimple is actually leading Mob to this conclusion and it's not Mob achieving self-realization, you're in plain denial." Your second sentence is this. Your refusal to accept how the dialogue was written doesn't change how the dialogue was written. Dimple could have simply said "Remember your brother, Ritsu? Remember your school club? Remember your friend Hanazawa?" But he outlines how the relationships have changed Mob, and he even directly reminds Mob of the morals Reigen tries to instill in him. Mob doesn't recall this himself, it's only after Reigen calls him and Dimple says "Stop using your powers for dumb things in this dumb world" that Mob remembers. This insinuates that this code of conduct wasn't instilled into Mob's subconscious strong enough for it to be emerge latently, i.e. there's no proof of Mob's growth here. I'm not "giving Dimple too much credit" by quoting the dialogue. There's no eisegesis when all I'm doing is citing what was actually said. This is how the dialogue was written, and your insistent refusal of the writing doesn't change that.



That might not have been Mogami's explicit MO, but that's essentially what the illusion amounts to. The only way Mob would be able to empathize with Mogami's misanthropy is if he had a different life, which boils down to "what if Mob was a different person?" Mogami's attempt to prove Mob's values wrong by changing the history of Mob's experience doesn't work as an actual (informal) "argument." This is the whole idea behind the danger of "Mob losing his sense of self." Really, Mogami's just rewriting Mob as a person, and it should be up to Mob to somehow find the will within himself to remain as he is, self intact, against Mogami's illusion. However, it's shown that he is incapable, in fact he almost loses, but only survives due to Dimple interfering. If Dimple hadn't saved him, Mob would have lost. This fact should tell you that Mob values did indeed falter under the illusory conditions, meaning his "growth" isn't actually substantial. The development should have stemmed from Mob self-realizing under Mogami's illusion, but instead it's a result from Dimple snapping Mob out of the illusion by explicitly remind him of how his relationships have changed him (see above reply to deg).

bitchassdarius said:

Those aren't very new concepts, since Mogami is just Hanazawa repackaged (i.e. another villain that uses psychic powers for self-gain, the difference being the motivation). Mogami is attempting to make Mob understand the motivation, but the method he chooses is unscrupulous. He's not really convincing Mob to change, rather he's forcing Mob into a new person.
The side characters really aren't as important. You can develop them as much as needed, but the focus again is on Mob, and to sacrifice important development of the protagonist for the sake of the side character is just plain bad writing. You can easily do both, so I don't think you should pursue this line of thought.

wenq said:


omfg that made me LOL so hard !! And ekubo's reaction was priceless.

L0ken said:


How you concluded that Mogami is Hanazawa repackaged when he is clearly Mob repackaged,it's so obvious and even stated in episode?
You just picked "self-gain" and different motivation,that's the really surface-level and general comparasion that could be made for any characters in the series.Heck,just one narrative point that Mogami backstory before is so similar to Mobs life,op psychic that used his powers to help people most of his life,difference that dire circumstances and lack of support broke him which was questioned by Mob himself before this arc and could have easily happened to him,hasn't Reigen and others existed,that's already much closer to Mobs character than any other character in the show from s1 and show itself,how it isn't new concept in the context of the show?Not even needed to mention ton of other things,you clearly oversimplifying.

About another point,focus of the episode was still pretty much on Mob and his development and conclusion is still the same,even if by your scenario he would manage to lift the illusion by themself he would generally still reached the same conclusion,it just would made Mob suddenly stronger mentaly(which is his main weakness that nobody from villans before exploited until now) than he's was depicted during the whole show before,it would made Mogami look much weaker as a villan,both in strength and understanding Mobs psychology and reduced importance of other characters,mainly Dimple and Reigen where their development directly affects Mob development as well because they so strongly connected with each other.

Not to mention finally returning to your initial question,as I told you before-yes,this arc plays out a huge role for future development for many characters beside Mob himself,so it couldn't be not important later on.

I understand you have preferences in storytelling and nobody can change your mind in that regard but i hope you understanded how me and others think and feel about this episode.

vlad07 said:

Firstly, Mogami is trying to change Mob, he doesn't "argue" with him. What makes you think that the show should be portraying his perspective on life objectively? It's not like he's right. His perspective is exaggerated and his point is made in the same manner because the show is not about how people may actually be bad, it's about how people can change for the better. There is no reason why they would portray the opposite perspective as anything other than wrong. Its role, instead, is to strengthen Mob's values, not make him abandon them. Whether Mogami's "argument" is good or not doesn't matter to the story or character. It's good enough so that it makes Mob think over his values again and strengthen his resolve to keep them. The illusion puts Mob into a shitty situation where he has no power over what is happening over him, like what happened to Mogami. He had no power to save his mother and after everything he did, she still blamed him for her death. That made him break. He wanted to save Mob the pain of walking the same path as him (which he also said)
Secondly, let's sort the problem you have with Dimple. I think we can both agree that he had to come into his vision because otherwise Mob wouldn't have gotten back his memories and nothing would have stopped him from going off the rails. You say that dimple "scolding" Mob on his actions by repeating his values and relationships takes away from his character development. I say you put too much emphasis on something that is not as important as you think it is. Dimple's recap only serves to remind Mob of what he has accomplished until now and what he wants to do going forward (also it's a recap for the viewer too). He remembers it all only after dimple is done. I don't think you yourself have a list of values you can say off the top of your head. Mob needing a recap from Dimple is understandable and it doesn't affect his conclusions. Dimple doesn't tell him anything more than what he already believed in. Mob thought things on his own and as proof he does change how he thinks a little.

Mythologically said:


ok buddy lmao. I use "budget" as just a shorthand way of writing "quality of animation and sound design". Clearly, they didn't walk into the studio and just give everyone more money ?XD

I disliked the episode due to the pathetic excuse for a plot. The first half is some extremely cringy illusion about bullying with Mogami narrating it in the most boring way possible, and its followed up with Mob winning by... remembering what he was doing before and using the power of friendship? The contrast between the quality of animation and sound design, the level of hype for this arc, and how generic and uninteresting the plot was was angering.

bitchassdarius said:

I never really said any of those things you're implying I said. Mogami's hypothesis is that Mob would empathize with Mogami's position had he endured a life similar to Mogami's. I never said if this was right or wrong, simply that this is what Mogami is attempting to do and why logic behind the method doesn't make any sense.
The recap is my point of contention. If Dimple is needed to remind Mob of his accomplishments via relationships, then it suffices to say Mob was unable to come to this conclusion on his own, i.e. there is no internal development. You are essentially agreeing with me, but you seem to be confused as to why this is not a desirable outcome. If Mob was wearing Ritsu's shoes, then subconsciously he has access to his memories despite Mogami's illusion, yes? So why couldn't he remember fully? Why did Dimple have to remind him? Mob has the tools to achieve self-realization on his own, so why was it written that Dimple
had to help him? If you assert "Dimple doesn't tell him anything more than what he already believed," why did Dimple even have to be there? Why couldn't Mob just break out of the illusion on his own? So many other shows get this right, I'm honestly baffled why so many people here defend this.

Mythologically said:


yeah that's exactly what i meant by a pathetic plot thanks for rephrasing it

TsukuyomiREKT said:
@Sheragin I don't think you even understand what the word animation means. Using screenshots of inbetweens as the basis for your "this wasn't good animation" argument is a classic example of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

andya34 said:


Well fancy effects doesn't necessarily means it's a good animation to me unlike most of you. I look into how realistic a scene is and fluidity of animation to define what good animation is. While this episode has great number of fancy effects it lacks the other two i mentioned.

Here's some examples:

Paper thin lava with no density


I can't even begin to understand wtf is going on here. Is that a lava?


Mob's hand 0.0


Dimple's stupid mouth movements


Edit: updated image site

Venumidas said:


Congratulations on reaching maximum degeneracy!

But I'm sorry to tell you that this is the only thing you will ever reach in your lifetime.
Without giving your profile a look I am 100% postitive you are a Fairy Tail watcher, atleast all the people who critiize good animation seem to have that in common.

The best course of action would just be to apologize for your extremely stupid comments or just never say a thing again.

AyanoHime said:
Damn that 100% Courage, LMAO.

bitchassdarius said:

That's plain wrong. Mob's values are completely perpendicular to Mogami's in the same way they are to Hanazawa's. If you'll follow the geometry analogy, a line that is perpendicular to two lines means that those two lines are parallel, i.e. Mogami and Hanazawa are essentially the same and typically denoted as a foil character. This is not an outrageous interpretation, it's pretty straightforward. To clarify, so you understand clearly and do not make the same mistake of throwing out this argument because you either don't comprehend or don't want to actually acknowledge it, one of the underlying themes of season 1 was Mob sticking to his guns and not using his powers against people unless provoked. Mob was tested numerous times and never used his powers for self-interest. This is the exact opposite of Hanazawa, the members of Claw, Dimple, and Mogami. Do you see the connection here? Mob Psycho has always been a story about responsibility of power (oft-quoted Spiderman line: "With great power comes great responsibility.") This is the underlying narrative thread, and each villain always plays opposite of Mob's stubbornly conscientious use of his powers. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the story and I would advise you to reconsider your entire conception of Mob Psycho.

The fact that you think Mogami is like Mob makes me think you don't really understand the story. One of the points of your interpretation is that, like Mob, Mogami has psychic powers he uses to help people. But that's not exclusive to either of these characters, in fact everyone with psychic powers does this. Note that the whole arc starts with a bunch of psychics in a room that are trying to exorcise a girl. This similarity is nothing special, if anything, it's "surface-level" and the connection is utterly unconvincing.

Your second point isn't relevant. Clearly the conclusion would be the same, but the point of contention is whether or not it's really earned. It doesn't feel like, and you've failed to really bring up any substantial evidence against my feeling.

vlad07 said:


How does the logic behind what Mogami does to break Mob not work? His method would have worked, we're it not for Dimple.
Why do you think your vision of how it should have been is the desirable outcome? This is not the end of the show, far from it. If Mob was powerful enough mentally and had the resolve necessary to break through this illusion on his own there would be no point to the show's continuation. If the episode would have gone as you envision it, the leap in character development would have been jarring. The episode is meant to show that Mob still has a ways to go still. Also, saying there is no internal development is an exaggeration. Dimple's help does not take away the fact that Mob thought through his conclusion. However much help you think he got from Dimple the conclusion was his own, it didn't come from anybody else. Your statement is like saying a child that is learning to ride a bike with a helper wheel makes no progress at all to riding an actual bike.
In your past posts you said that Mogami doesn't make a good "informal" argument. I said that he isn't even trying to make one and that he shouldn't even need to do one because of reasons I said in my previous post.
BTW: In the vision, Ritsu still existed so the fact that Mob wore Ritsu's shoes instead of his own doesn't prove anything really.

andya34 said:


Well fancy effects doesn't necessarily means it's a good animation to me unlike most of you. I look into how realistic a scene is and fluidity of animation to define what good animation is. While this episode has great number of fancy effects it lacks the other two i mentioned.

Here's some examples:

Paper thin lava with no density


I can't even begin to understand wtf is going on here. Is that a lava?


Mob's hand 0.0


Dimple's stupid mouth movements

Old_School_Akira said:


Yep. Mob was fabulous this episode

bitchassdarius said:

I never really said any of those things you're implying I said. Mogami's hypothesis is that Mob would empathize with Mogami's position had he endured a life similar to Mogami's. I never said if this was right or wrong, simply that this is what Mogami is attempting to do and why logic behind the method doesn't make any sense.

bitchassdarius said:

That's plain wrong. Mob's values are completely perpendicular to Mogami's in the same way they are to Hanazawa's. If you'll follow the geometry analogy, a line that is perpendicular to two lines means that those two lines are parallel, i.e. Mogami and Hanazawa are essentially the same and typically denoted as a foil character. This is not an outrageous interpretation, it's pretty straightforward. To clarify, so you understand clearly and do not make the same mistake of throwing out this argument because you either don't comprehend or don't want to actually acknowledge it, one of the underlying themes of season 1 was Mob sticking to his guns and not using his powers against people unless provoked. Mob was tested numerous times and never used his powers for self-interest. This is the exact opposite of Hanazawa, the members of Claw, Dimple, and Mogami. Do you see the connection here? Mob Psycho has always been a story about responsibility of power (oft-quoted Spiderman line: "With great power comes great responsibility.") This is the underlying narrative thread, and each villain always plays opposite of Mob's stubbornly conscientious use of his powers. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the story and I would advise you to reconsider your entire conception of Mob Psycho.

The fact that you think Mogami is like Mob makes me think you don't really understand the story. One of the points of your interpretation is that, like Mob, Mogami has psychic powers he uses to help people. But that's not exclusive to either of these characters, in fact everyone with psychic powers does this. Note that the whole arc starts with a bunch of psychics in a room that are trying to exorcise a girl. This similarity is nothing special, if anything, it's "surface-level" and the connection is utterly unconvincing.

vlad07 said:

How does the logic behind what Mogami does to break Mob not work? His method would have worked, we're it not for Dimple.
Why do you think your vision of how it should have been is the desirable outcome? This is not the end of the show, far from it. If Mob was powerful enough mentally and had the resolve necessary to break through this illusion on his own there would be no point to the show's continuation. If the episode would have gone as you envision it, the leap in character development would have been jarring. The episode is meant to show that Mob still has a ways to go still. Also, saying there is no internal development is an exaggeration. Dimple's help does not take away the fact that Mob thought through his conclusion. However much help you think he got from Dimple the conclusion was his own, it didn't come from anybody else. Your statement is like saying a child that is learning to ride a bike with a helper wheel makes no progress at all to riding an actual bike.
In your past posts you said that Mogami doesn't make a good "informal" argument. I said that he isn't even trying to make one and that he shouldn't even need to do one because of reasons I said in my previous post.
BTW: In the vision, Ritsu still existed so the fact that Mob wore Ritsu's shoes instead of his own doesn't prove anything really.

ttcchen said:

What the hell makes you think geometry has anything to do with writing?? Lines being perpendicular or parallel has nothing to do with characters and their values. People have many different values. They aren't defined by just one value. Just because One of Mob's values contradict with Hanazawa's and another contradicts with Mogami's doesn't mean Hanazawa and Mogami are "essentially the same". This isn't some A-B=C and D-B=C so A=D. You can't define human beings with a single variable because variables are constant while human beings are subject to change.

bitchassdarius said:



Are you that unfamiliar with rhetoric that you don't know what an analogy is? If that's the case, I'm not surprised you don't understand basic narrative structures. I suggest you go do your homework, since you clearly have no place in such a discussion. These aren't "human beings," these are fictional characters, with countable dimensions. They are indeed this simplistic, because they exist simply for the sake of the story. They need to have communicable traits otherwise the story loses its structure. They are not complex just because you don't understand them. Don't bother replying, I can't really take you seriously.

ttcchen said:

Are you actually being serious right now? Who said fictional characters aren't allowed to be complex and multi-dimensional? Who said they have to be simple and have limited traits? Who said fictional characters cannot be considered humans? Mathematical Analogy cannot be compared to literature. And as far as I can see here, Mob is more human than you'll ever be.

bitchassdarius said:

I'm not comparing an analogy to literature, I'm using the basic logic of a mathematical theorem to show how the fact that both Hanazawa and Mogami being a foil to Mob makes them "essentially the same character." The fact that you couldn't pick up on this, instead opting to attack the diction as opposed to the content of the analogy, proves that you're completely out of your element. I suggest you never try to talk about this kind of stuff anymore, it's embarrassing how flagrant you are about your ignorance.
Mob Psycho is a fairly simply shounen story, you only think it's complex because you have no idea what you're talking about. If you want a suggestion for an introduction to legitimately complex characters, you should stop watching anime and pick up a book. Maybe read something by Woolf, say Orlando, or if you'd like to stick to Japanese culture, A Personal Matter by Kenzaburo Oe.

andya34 said:


Well fancy effects doesn't necessarily means it's a good animation to me unlike most of you. I look into how realistic a scene is and fluidity of animation to define what good animation is. While this episode has great number of fancy effects it lacks the other two i mentioned.

Here's some examples:

Paper thin lava with no density


I can't even begin to understand wtf is going on here. Is that a lava?


Mob's hand 0.0


Dimple's stupid mouth movements


Edit: updated image site

BlossomBurst said:
Also, manga-readers, does Mob ever go ???% again?

L0ken said:
So @bitchassdarius,can you respond to my latest post and explain where I'm wrong?

ttcchen said:

Mob Psycho is not a fairly simple shounen. Naruto is. One Piece is. Fairy Tail is. Mob Psycho is not. It contains complex and realistic plot and characters. How you can watch over a thousand anime yet still don't understand what a typical shounen is is beyond me.

And once again, Teru and Mogami are not essentially the same character just because they both opposed Mob's growth. They are nowhere near the same, and Mogami's influence on Mob will continue to linger throughout the next few major arcs.

Also, anime is just another form of story-telling, no matter whether it's text form or animation form, books and animes both tell a story. They're both different forms of literature. So there is nothing wrong with seeking complex characters in anime.

Raizel said:
Your forum pic looks much better :)

If Anyone claims to this animation be bad well they probably are blind oh ficked up in some or another way.

This was literally the best Mob episode that I ever watched I even liked it more than
OPM last ep.

bitchassdarius said:

It's not complex. I've already outlined the basic narrative structure in this thread, and you still think it's complex simply because your brain hasn't formed fully. You're not doing Mob Psycho any favours by comparing it to the most basic shounen available. It doesn't take much to be more complex Naruto. You would understand this if your knowledge wasn't so limited. Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your whole post reeks of it.
Anime is not literature at all, and the idea that you can't apply analytic techniques from literature to anime simply because they're different is embarrassingly misinformed. I've never read a post that grovels in its own inexperience before. You argue that Mob Psycho is complex because it's not as simple as Naruto. That's fucking embarassing. The vast majority of shounen, specifically battle shounen, are not complex, its built into the demographic. How do you not understand this? Why would a publishing company publish complicated stories aimed at 12-18 year olds over a fun action-filled story like One Piece? Mob Psycho is not any different. This is so obvious it shouldn't even need to be stated to anyone with a brain. Don't bother replying, I'm not wasting my time on a mouthbreather that would eat dirt because "hey, at least it's not shit." Thanks for playing.

beew said:
Anyone know the ed song for this episode?