Brobot said: Michiko to Hatchin and Tetsuwan Birdy are worth checking out. Great shows featuring memorable female leads. I've never heard of Michiko to Hatchin before, but after checking out the synopsis I just found out that it's set in Brazil!!!! Count me in as: hyped as fuck. Yeah, I'll have to agree: the soundtrack is badass. But I'm not so sure if it'll keep me distracted from the potentially horrid 3D mecha-ness lol i'm really not a fan of the mecha genre. |
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HyperL said: FunkyNano said: Topics like these derail because not everyone will share the same definition of feminism. As a political ideology, its fundamental presupposition is the existence of a patriarchy, and none of the shows you've talked about have much to do with that, even if they can be interpreted through a feminist lens. If by "feminist themes", you simply mean atypical/progressive representations of women, then that's a different story. Though this isn't the definition i'd use, since it's using the term as an umbrella for any story that represents its female characters positively (whatever that might mean to the individual), and isn't that just like, good character writing? Exactly. I'm among those who see feminism exclusively as an idealogy (however not strictly political), which is why the notion that a proper female character is all it takes for a show to be considered femininst is a huge stretch for me. A feminist show is one that explores and promotes one or more ideals that encompass the feminist idealogy. Woman being/learning to be independent (not needing a man to take care of them). Woman above/rising against male supremacy (bringing fairness to the distribution of power and opportunity). Woman defying preconceptions and gender roles (dismantling the social construct of what a woman is capable or expected to do/be). ^^^ Those kinds of things. There needs to be an entity, group, system, force or idea trying to diminish, limit or patronize one or more woman, with woman overcoming such adversity in the end. I'm not saying femininst idealogy needs to be the core of the show, but it still needs to be there somewhere (like an arc or subplot, or even the world building) for the show to be femininst. Well Perfect Blue does comment on women being pushed into kinky scenes without them actually wanting to do that. NGE, while not being it's main theme, tackles the preconception of the perfect Japanese housewife by exaggerating those traits in Rei. Sure it's without her actually being a housewife but the other traits are spot on. Miyazaki has said countless times his characters are that way because of feminist reasons too. Madoka Magica had that one scene where Sayaka stood up against a couple of mysoginist men who where talking shit about women. I forgot about or haven't seen the other ones yet but those I mentioned in this reply do seem to meet your criteria. |
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holysauron said: FWIW I think that the NGE and Miyazaki examples are separate from the Perfect Blue and MadoMagi examples. In the former two, it's an out-of-universe design perspective that's arguably inspired by feminism, while in the latter two examples, it's an in-universe mention of a specific topic related to feminism.Well Perfect Blue does comment on women being pushed into kinky scenes without them actually wanting to do that. NGE, while not being it's main theme, tackles the preconception of the perfect Japanese housewife by exaggerating those traits in Rei. Sure it's without her actually being a housewife but the other traits are spot on. Miyazaki has said countless times his characters are that way because of feminist reasons too. Madoka Magica had that one scene where Sayaka stood up against a couple of mysoginist men who where talking shit about women. I forgot about or haven't seen the other ones yet but those I mentioned in this reply do seem to meet your criteria. Just thought it'd be interesting to make that distinction, that's all. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| To exterminate feminism means to extermine humanity for it is not only female that is the core cancer in this world. |
_Ako_ said: To exterminate feminism means to extermine humanity for it is not only female that is the core cancer in this world. I have no Idea how to interpret that. LoneWolf said: I'm gonna assume you mean anime with good female leads and not just shitting on men like most modern feminism. Try some of these Maison Ikkoku https://myanimelist.net/anime/1453 Bubblegum Crisis https://myanimelist.net/anime/1347 Battle Angel Alita https://myanimelist.net/anime/1016 Armitage III https://myanimelist.net/anime/1079 Mardock Scramble https://myanimelist.net/anime/8100 A woman named Fujiko https://myanimelist.net/anime/13203 Spice and Wolf https://myanimelist.net/anime/2966 Kemono no Souja Erin https://myanimelist.net/anime/5420 Seirei no Moribito https://myanimelist.net/anime/1827 Something like that. Just shitting on men doesn't equal being feminist either and I'm firmly against that. Didn't need any recommendations though but just a general opinion on how they're handled. That's Akira Takasaki for you. If you like this soundtrack you should check his band Loudness. |
holysauronApr 1, 2018 1:29 AM
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| asian culture already doesn't put woman lower than male traditionally unlike western counterpart, they simply have different role on society... women are not less important or second class citizens, but they simply has different nature and task they should has and expectation they given by society... when vote democracy in the east introduced, female already allowed to vote... exception ot the rule is viewed as something amazing rather than dangerious as long it's not againt's eastern morality... but it also need to be noted eastern comunity is also more conservative and slow to change than the west... hence why most of old woman themed series usually play on those society role already rather than fighting for rights... they already has the rights... it's society view on woman rigid traditional expectation that usually criticized and demand to change.... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Madoka Magika has some feminist elements, you can clearly see they swaped the typical gender roles betwen her mother and his father, but the anime dosent focus on that. Psycho-Pass is pretty much a feminist anime, putting Akane as the main protagonist and a superior to her male counterpart. Even when she gets flustered by a shirtless Kougami is the reversion of your typical male x female relationship you see in anime. Both animes share the same director so I guess thats no coincidence |
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Kuma said: asian culture already doesn't put woman lower than male traditionally unlike western counterpart, they simply have different role on society... women are not less important or second class citizens, but they simply has different nature and task they should has and expectation they given by society... when vote democracy in the east introduced, female already allowed to vote... exception ot the rule is viewed as something amazing rather than dangerious as long it's not againt's eastern morality... but it also need to be noted eastern comunity is also more conservative and slow to change than the west... hence why most of old woman themed series usually play on those society role already rather than fighting for rights... they already has the rights... it's society view on woman rigid traditional expectation that usually criticized and demand to change.... Interesting. That also explains why the East has such stories as the ones surrounding Tomoe Gozen and Triệu Thị Trinh. 15poundfish said: There are no Feminist anime and it should stay that way. I'd check your own list again because you've actually seen a couple. |
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holysauron said: Kuma said: asian culture already doesn't put woman lower than male traditionally unlike western counterpart, they simply have different role on society... women are not less important or second class citizens, but they simply has different nature and task they should has and expectation they given by society... when vote democracy in the east introduced, female already allowed to vote... exception ot the rule is viewed as something amazing rather than dangerious as long it's not againt's eastern morality... but it also need to be noted eastern comunity is also more conservative and slow to change than the west... hence why most of old woman themed series usually play on those society role already rather than fighting for rights... they already has the rights... it's society view on woman rigid traditional expectation that usually criticized and demand to change.... Interesting. That also explains why the East has such stories as the ones surrounding Tomoe Gozen and Triệu Thị Trinh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna-bugeisha it's real, there is also hua mulan too... and even during meiji revolution periods, empress jingu is the first woman on the japan money, mainly to encourage woman to active in economic field as well mainland invassion... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| No one has said Shingeki no Kyojin yet? It's probably one of the most feminist anime out there. There aren't any "weak women" in there and all are independent from male characters, all with their own personality that is very distinct from typical stereotypes. The same applies to male characters. Basically, take a look at both Armin and Mikasa and you've seen all. Armin is the typical weak woman who is a thinker, but in this case she's male. Mikasa is the typical man who protects his beloved and doesn't think to much before attacking, but in this case he's female. One other feminist anime would be Fullmetal Alchemist, for similar reasons to Attack on Titan. Even Winry, the one who could be considered sexist, is a feminist character since she's a mechanic, something that women aren't supossed to be. We also have Olivier who is basically a total subversion of all female stereotypes and without hinting of being a lesbian. Surprisingly, Keijo (an ecchi) is also feminist. It portrays strong female characters and even with the premise they aren't sexualized at all. The ecchi premise is treated in a serious but self-aware manner that makes it very empowering. Fortunately, most shows I've watched have feminist themes or at least aren't entirely sexist. I think the only undoubtely sexist anime I've watched are Death Note, Highschool of the Dead and Mirai Nikki which are very few. I don't know if it's luck in my side or that anime does really have more feminist works than western works. |
SuzuMine-chanApr 1, 2018 3:27 AM
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| You absolutely mad man OP They're okay usually like any other show, but then again as I'm not feminist I don't criticize shows on how they portray feminist values. Kuma said: it's society view on woman rigid traditional expectation that usually criticized and demand to change.... Not that I have read much on this but traditional roles and expectations were the fuel why feminism came to Japan and was separated from Western feminism movement. Today Japan feminism movement (generally) focuses on women's sexuality freedom and employment so not that much different in their values from it's starting day. Tho I have heard there's some radfem South Korean movement. Clebardman said: full 3d mecha battles (^': Now I need to add this show to my PTW :^) |
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Curious. Does anybody out here consider Yona a feminist female lead? |
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urpoutta said: Kuma said: it's society view on woman rigid traditional expectation that usually criticized and demand to change.... Not that I have read much on this but traditional roles and expectations were the fuel why feminism came to Japan and was separated from Western feminism movement. Today Japan feminism movement (generally) focuses on women's sexuality freedom and employment so not that much different in their values from it's starting day. Tho I have heard there's some radfem South Korean movement. exactly, people in here is too focused on western view of feminism... they fail to understand there is too much basic difference each culture and imply everything by western glasses or steriotype... it need to be understand that feminims is movement while they might inspired each other, their purpose and view is mainly based reality surrounded them with what they has and what they need to change... of course extream side always can be fond on every kind of view, but thinking that japan feminism and western feminism as one entity really misleading... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
holysauron said: 15poundfish said: There are no Feminist anime and it should stay that way. I'd check your own list again because you've actually seen a couple. You're destroying his safe-space if you say that. I assume some people want to tell themselves that the anime world is a safe-space for them, free from any traces of feminism. Hence this widespread denial on MAL. |
zodd0 said: You're destroying his safe-space if you say that. I assume some people want to tell themselves that the anime world is a safe-space for them, free from any traces of feminism. Hence this widespread denial on MAL. Big Brother is watching you! :p But seriously some people are either blind or in denial because sometimes they will disagree when you point out something obvious. Anyway I think I'll look up what You said because it peaked my interest. |
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| @holysauron I see... as far as intent. I don't feel like most creators are actively trying to empower female characters or anything of that sort... its just a smart business decision to use female characters, because they're easier to market to the demographic (adult men). So I don't necessarily believe the abundance of "strong" female characters is due to the creators wanting to send a political message about women in general, but rather to have more eye candy for the series. Of course there are some exceptions like the Year 24 group and some other shoujo authors, even Tezuka himself brings up feminism in some of his works in a positive light... and sometimes a not so positive light (If you've ever read Swallowing the Earth). That's more on the manga side though, but yeah I don't really feel the intent is there in most anime with a few exceptions like maybe Ikuhara's work and Josei stuff like Nana and Kuragehime. |
 "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
LoneWolf said: @holysauron I see... as far as intent. I don't feel like most creators are actively trying to empower female characters or anything of that sort... its just a smart business decision to use female characters, because they're easier to market to the demographic (adult men). So I don't necessarily believe the abundance of "strong" female characters is due to the creators wanting to send a political message about women in general, but rather to have more eye candy for the series. Of course there are some exceptions like the Year 24 group and some other shoujo authors, even Tezuka himself brings up feminism in some of his works in a positive light... and sometimes a not so positive light (If you've ever read Swallowing the Earth). That's more on the manga side though, but yeah I don't really feel the intent is there in most anime with a few exceptions like maybe Ikuhara's work and Josei stuff like Nana and Kuragehime. I actually believe You more in this regard because he's actually from Asia. Of course there are differences between Japanese and Malaysian culture but given that I actually found evidence of what he said I'm inclined to believe him. |
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| Whatever "feminist" works I've seen in anime, had the brain and skill to present it more subtly, if at all they were going for that in the first place, without being too obvious about it, like the hacks who make "feminist" movies and tv shows in the west these days. Stuff like Seirei no Moribito, Kemono no Souja Erin, Wandering Son, Houseki no Kuni, Ghibli movies, all had feminist/intersectional ideas, without sounding preachy. |
| @holysauron You're already proposing a extremist radical solution. Why not go to the more extreme that will at the end polish anime? Without humanity anime will stay as it is without the hint of change nor degrading moral values presented to it. |
| Don't know any anime I'd consider "feminist". Then again I tend to stay far away from female protagonists with the exception of a few handful such as Revy from Black Lagoon and Major from Ghost in The Shell. But even then I wouldn't consider those characters feminist, they are strong female leads but not feminists and there's a difference. I'd also prefer it stay that way. Modern feminism has no place in anime. |
GreenEmuApr 1, 2018 8:25 AM
_Ako_ said: @holysauron You're already proposing a extremist radical solution. Why not go to the more extreme that will at the end polish anime? Without humanity anime will stay as it is without the hint of change nor degrading moral values presented to it. Call me dumb if you want but I still don't get it. What extremist radical solution did I propose? |
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holysauron said: _Ako_ said: @holysauron You're already proposing a extremist radical solution. Why not go to the more extreme that will at the end polish anime? Without humanity anime will stay as it is without the hint of change nor degrading moral values presented to it. Call me dumb if you want but I still don't get it. What extremist radical solution did I propose? Is that not what all feminist/anti-feminist thread is all about in AD; the solution of how to stop it, a radical solution that somehow, everything will be good again? |
Had I ever admit that I read OP when there's really no need to do so? Is it one of those anime where, if I watch more EP it'll suddenly be good? Like if I read the OP it'll suddenly make sense? |
_Ako_ said: holysauron said: Call me dumb if you want but I still don't get it. What extremist radical solution did I propose? Is that not what all feminist/anti-feminist thread is all about in AD; the solution of how to stop it, a radical solution that somehow, everything will be good again? That's exactly what I didn't want. I see so many of those threads I really don't think I can contribute to the forum by making one. Instead I wanted a discussion on the existing anime and whether they are done in a good or bad way. The market of "we need feminism in anime" threads and anti-SJW threads is oversaturized already. |
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holysauron said: _Ako_ said: Is that not what all feminist/anti-feminist thread is all about in AD; the solution of how to stop it, a radical solution that somehow, everything will be good again? That's exactly what I didn't want. I see so many of those threads I really don't think I can contribute to the forum by making one. Instead I wanted a discussion on the existing anime and whether they are done in a good or bad way. The market of "we need feminism in anime" threads and anti-SJW threads is oversaturized already. Might as well change title thread to "I just want to talk about anime" |
| anime females can be the strongest characters or best fighters too but i never know a female anime character like Light Yagami or Lelouch though |
_Ako_ said: holysauron said: That's exactly what I didn't want. I see so many of those threads I really don't think I can contribute to the forum by making one. Instead I wanted a discussion on the existing anime and whether they are done in a good or bad way. The market of "we need feminism in anime" threads and anti-SJW threads is oversaturized already. Might as well change title thread to "I just want to talk about anime" Just read my OP. You'll see what I mean. |
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| Well a lot of my favorites would probably be considered "feminist friendly". There's a lot of diversity in anime that has female interest in mind. Glass Mask, for example, isn't about overthrowing any established gender norms like Utena is, but is still a great story about two young women trying to achieve their dream on their own merits. |
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15poundfish said: True, but only for the specific definition of "feminism" that you're using, which is basically the obnoxious internet flamewar strawman version of feminism.I disagree, I have never seen an anime the embodies the core of feminist philosophy. A Feminist anime I think would be about activism pertaining to women's rights specifically to gain independence from men or envious domination of males shown as virtuous. Anime that do show feminists become jokes, villains or a romcom gag. People generally confuse self-actualized female characters and gender bending when this not the core characteristic of Feminism. edit: Feminism has always been about liberation from men and reparations for the oppression perpetuated by "the patriarchy". If don't believe in both of these you are not a Feminist. The outcome of Feminist philosophy is about removing responsibilities for women. Women should receive promotions and higher pay despite not having the qualifications or hours to receive that compensation. For social standards, its why preferences that are either abhored by most men and hypo-agency of women is glorified such as slut glorification, vote without conscription, single motherhood glorification, paternity fraud, fat acceptance, don't question women, single motherhood, abortion, affirmative consent, rape shield laws for the accuser but not for the victim of the accused, etc. A philosophy that promotes female responsibility and interdependence between men and women is not a feminist philosophy but a traditionalist one. (Not to mention that your definition actually includes things that aren't necessarily bad.) As has already been pointed out above: FunkyNano said: not everyone will share the same definition of feminism. Specifically, another very common usage of "feminism" refers to, quite simply, empowerment of female persons (or characters, in the context of fiction). Probably because that is actually the intent of many founders and advocates of the feminist movement. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 1, 2018 3:22 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| There are plenty of "feminist" anime. Its just that Western feminism and Japanese feminism aren't the same thing. Plenty of people have already brought up Utena, which I'm watching right now. Utena does discuss ideas like objectification and projection, but it does so in a fairly even-handed way. Dudes and babes are both objectified and projected onto in equal measure in that show, which is refreshing as fuck. Utena herself is a bit of feminist superhero (noble, non-binary, never really fails in any significant way), but the other characters are all Aristotlean tragic heroes with flaws. I'd highly recommend it. |
| @M0M0I Pretty sure you'd love it, with those favs. |
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15poundfish said: I disagree, I have never seen an anime the embodies the core of feminist philosophy. A Feminist anime I think would be about activism pertaining to women's rights specifically to gain independence from men or envious domination of males shown as virtuous. Anime that do show feminists become jokes, villains or a romcom gag. People generally confuse self-actualized female characters and gender bending when this not the core characteristic of Feminism. edit: Feminism has always been about liberation from men and reparations for the oppression perpetuated by "the patriarchy". If don't believe in both of these you are not a Feminist. The outcome of Feminist philosophy is about removing responsibilities for women. Women should receive promotions and higher pay despite not having the qualifications or hours to receive that compensation. For social standards, its why preferences that are either abhored by most men and hypo-agency of women is glorified such as slut glorification, vote without conscription, single motherhood glorification, paternity fraud, fat acceptance, don't question women, single motherhood, abortion, affirmative consent, rape shield laws for the accuser but not for the victim of the accused, etc. A philosophy that promotes female responsibility and interdependence between men and women is not a feminist philosophy but a traditionalist one. Lets break this down. And put it in the context of Japan and not the west kay thank you very much. Feminism has always been about liberation from men and reparations for the oppression perpetuated by "the patriarchy". If don't believe in both of these you are not a Feminist. There are two ways in which feminists go about things. Liberation is step one usually. Mostly because places where feminism is most needed, women need literal liberation from men because they aren't even counted as people. Not able vote, choose who to marry, when to marry, when to have babies, unable to own property, choose what clothing to wear, have an education, to work outside the home. Further liberation usually involves a right to look how you wish to look and not for men and a right to behavior, like to behave as a man. Part two is usually more about equality in the law but also about in culture- not just what they think men are controlling, but the right to be equal after being able to do all the things a man can do, it should be thought of as equal. This is often a more complex part of the movement. Because you would think part one would establish this. But it doesn't and it creates cultural problems. Women should receive promotions and higher pay despite not having the qualifications or hours to receive that compensation. The expectation that a woman quit her job because she gave birth is very common in Japan. And sadly, I have seen many women here in the USA give up their career or college, or whatever to take care of elderly family. The USA, nor Japan really makes an effort to say that this is a job. And so women are prescieved to have missed out on experience. Women in Japan who want to work, have basically dedicated themselves to a life of no marriage. Even avoiding sex completely. Men have done much the same. Resigned to the idea that women are "too much trouble". For social standards, its why preferences that are either abhored by most men and hypo-agency of women is glorified such as slut glorification, I have been with one person for the last 9 years. But I chose him. My father didn't choose him, I did. There was a time very recent history for Japan, where arranged marriage was dominate over love marriage. Forced marriage is not a world I like. And considering Japan has a birth rate issue, they could use a few more "sluts". vote without conscription, Japan has officially banned conscription. I believe the USA should too. But you are speaking in very westerner terms when you talk about that. I believe it should be banned. The military doesn't accept too many people for it to even be effective anymore anyway. And it is very possible to be exempt like my husband for being disabled. You also stop being eligible after a certain age too. Also, the draft caused large amounts of military waste because people who go through the training and last less than two years are a waste of money. Despite how here in the west, everyone is mostly against conscription, they still haven't gotten rid of it. which I think is silly. single motherhood glorification, paternity fraud, I personally see nothing wrong with mandatory paternity testing. We are getting to a time when DNA testing is getting cheaper. My dad though, knowingly raised kids who weren't his own without hassle. He paid the support and then got custody of us all eventually. Mostly because we did want to live with him. My dad was a single father. Who loves his children deeply. Played video games, encouraged us in sports or plays. Was always there for us after his hard day at work. I don't think being a single parent is bad. Just our system isn't set up for it. And in the context of Japan: "There is no such thing, legally, as joint custody in Japan, and women there tend to be the ones financially responsible for their children. Women usually work part-time or low-paying jobs because they had previously dropped out of the workforce to raise their children, and find it hard to get hired into well-paying, full-time jobs. And because of safety-net reforms developed over the past two decades, they can depend on little help from the state. Today, Japan has the highest share of single mothers in the labor force of any country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), at 85 percent." "The poverty rate of single parent-families where the parent is working is 56 percent, which is also the highest in the OECD. The poverty rate of similar working single-parent families in the U.S., by comparison, is 33.5 percent." "Additionally, if paternity is left unverified, it leaves in question the child’s genetics, which could affect future medical treatment." Manditory testing seems like a good idea. But the question becomes, who pays for it? fat acceptance, Well Japan definitely doesn't even support women who are well with in their BMI. There is enoumous pressure to remain at an acceptable weight. Which is why they have a bigger annarexia problem than a overweight/obesity problem. Another contributing factor to the lower weights in Japan is the ease of getting healthy food over unhealthy food. Not to mention the practice of having work out sessions at work. "The law does require men and women between the ages of 45 and 74 to have their waistlines examined once a year and potentially seek medical treatment." The law affects men with waistlines larger than 35.4 inches and women with waistlines larger than 31.5 inches. The government fines the company if they don't care for their employee. But there is a lot more social judgement to the point where there are many many people underweight there. Back to usa standards here: The only time I was overweight was when I had a health issue requiring medication. I wish my family treated me better. My cousin had a brain tumor which did much the same... people thought it was her fault. Turns out, it wasn't. I understand. A lot of the fat acceptance movement has become about accepting people choosing fatness. But until there is some sort of universal healthcare where they can see a doctor about it and are able to treat it medically, I really have a hard time judging them. I personally did not see it as a choice to be unhealthy and becoming fat as a result of that. I am now back to being 5 pounds underweight. rather an 15-20 over. I am still struggling with health but at least I am alive thanks to access to good doctors provided through medicaid. abortion Ain't this a touchy subject. Well let me lay down a thing. Providing free birth control for anyone who asks for it lowers abortion. Making birth control as accessible as possible lowers abortion. Non-abstinence sex education lowers abortion and teen pregnancy, and also lowers stds, and pregnancy in general. "After handing out free IUDs and implants to teens and poor women over six years, the statewide teen birthrate dropped 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while the abortion rate dropped 42 percent. The results were especially dramatic in the state’s poorest regions, The New York Times reported." In Japan though, has higher rates of abortion than the USA. #1 reason for getting one is "not being married". Where in the USA, it is mostly financial reasoning. And Japan has a bad habit of not prescribing enough birth control. affirmative consent, "“Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. … Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent." You do realize, the reason why I am both for and against this mostly has to do with the number of people who rape mentally ill, handycaped and old people in nursing homes right? Nurses and caretakers are the #1 rapists around who get away with what they do because their victims cannot defend themselves. The law is set up in such a way right now that these horrible people get away with it time and time again. It is utterly disgusting. And laywers will trot out stupid stuff like "she didn't say no" well she can't speak! omg. They will claim someone who is mute didn't scream loud enough to be counted as rape... Maybe if this didn't happen, there wouldn't be so much of a problem. But it is a big problem. rape shield laws for the accuser but not for the victim of the accused The victim is the person who was raped. The accused is someone who was just accused. It is the law's job to figure out if the crime has enough evidence. If not, then they don't go to trial. If so, they go to trial. It doesn't mean the rape didn't happen. It means there wasn't enough legal evidence to put someone behind bars. And considering there are people who do get away with murder- yeah it happens a lot. Speaking of rape in the context of Japan, stuff is so bad there right now, that they need women's only trains. Because culturally they are expected to sit there and take it like a doll. Which is why there is so much porn centered on this from Japan. They also had to make silly laws like how cellphones have to make an audible noise when taking pictures. Because so many people were being blackmailed with shots upskirt. And there has still been very little done to actually address this issue culturally. |
Energetic-NovaApr 1, 2018 2:00 PM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| I think the reality is that, at the end of the day, Japan is still fairly sexist. As is pretty much the rest of the world. Anime is one of those industries that has historically been dominated by men, and many of the most popular shows today seem to target primarily men. The ideologies of feminism are probably an afterthought. I recently watched Citrus. There was definitely potential there for elements of it, but I felt like they missed the mark on most of them. Come to think of it, Seirei no Moribito is probably the only series I've seen that really nailed some of the main feminist concepts such as strong female lead, little to no over sexualization, etc..Recovery of an MMO Junkie might also fit the bill as far as fantasy series go, though it's more like a fantasy/slice of life hybrid. Claymore and Fate/Zero came close, but still ended up falling into some of the same tropes that we've come to expect. I'm gonna have to look into some of the series mentioned here. My list is like a million shows longs, but feel free to suggest any others that might be relevant. |
PrettiBoiSlimApr 1, 2018 6:01 PM
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Hoppy said: Anime is better off without the poison dart frog of a concept called feminism. It will end up like Marvel comics otherwise. so women wanting equal rights is a bad thing? |
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-Judar- said: Hoppy said: Anime is better off without the poison dart frog of a concept called feminism. It will end up like Marvel comics otherwise. so women wanting equal rights is a bad thing? No, but you don't want modern 3rd-4th wave feminism in anime. |
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To be more specific, the "tumblr/sjw/extreme" type of feminism? |
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Yes, the type of feminism that lets certain rich women go to the UN to whine and complain because of simple insults instead of blocking them like normal human beings. |
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15poundfish said: Feminism is not just about liberation its also about demonizing masculinity and control. Its about liberating women from societal and social standards and holding men to their traditional standards while emasculating them in the process. Its an ideology about control not just about liberation. Men often in the societies were the average woman have less agency also live tough or tougher lives if they are not part of the upper class. Feminism focuses on these upper class males and pins the blame on all males even the poor ones. Its an ideology that was developed by upper class women that were envious of upper class men. Its always been about liberating women from responsibility and pushing all that responsibility on all men. Its why all of those things I listed before are pushed by Western Feminism. Women's rights and Feminism are not synonyms because Feminism is more than equal legal rights. Some feminists demonize masculenity. But not all. A lot of them are focused on how expectations of gender roles hurt men and women. If we don't like masculinity, we wouldn't hold you to a traditional standard. Are you saying men are not trying to control people? Because I believe forcing women to stay home, taking away their right to vote, saying they can't even ride a bike, is control. Saying a woman should allow her husband to fuck her whenever he wants is about control. Classism has nothing to do with feminism. Classism hurts everyone. Feminists are typically anti-war, so conscription is not their fault. They are typically pro-clean energy, so men dying in coal mines is also not their fault. Isn't men forcing women to stay home, cook, clean, care for children men forcing their shared responsibility onto women? And even after the nest is empty, forcing her to stay uneducated and wont let her join the workforce because he is scared of her making money? There is no difference between women's rights activists and feminism. It is literally the same thing. Part two is a fools errand because men and women are different on a biological level. Men on average are stronger than men and the upper curve is smarter than all women. You can't force equality if everyone is born with different abilities of varying levels. Women and men are not equal and will never will be unless technology in the future can make that possible through genetic engineering. Gender is not fluid, transgenders in sports is one of the many examples that disproves men and women are equal. Men and women also have different sexual preferences and strategies that lead to different outcomes depending on the gender. Biology influences culture and gender roles are only flexible enough for what the biology will allow. You can't force all men to like sluts and fat women unless you breed all the ones that like chaste and thin women out of the gene pool. There is no objective truth that men are superior in intelligence. Throughout most of human history, colleges would not grant degrees to women. Most governments and academic circles would not fund projects lead by women. Even today, male scientists and historians have acknowledged many previously male credited things, were actually through the hard work of women. There was a time women could not own a business or own property. Or go to college. Or even school at all. Just because of their gender. And there are still places, around the world which have this problem. Women in Japan are an interesting case of this. Often achieving higher degrees of education only to be forced home to care for family. Culture is a structurally learned concept and has nothing to do with biology. For instance: Biologically, men and women are sluts. We are not built for monogamy But society is built on this as a foundation. Being a slut is more biologically natural. Traditional culture flies in the face of biology. The whole point of culture is to restrain biology. Religion and government was created to control natural human behavior. Not that there is anything wrong with having rules. If biology dictated rules, there would be no need for rules, because we would all follow them naturally. Culture exists in spite of, not because of biology. It is wrong to shame people into finding certain people attractive. I acknowledge that. I have always seen it more as an effort to try to portray more people which they personally know. Fat acceptance as I would frame it, from MY perspective, is about accepting people in society who are typically more outcasts. Not saying to find them attractive but to just allow them to be themselves. Women don't have to quit their job, they choose to. I mean seriously if you were a women in Japan would you rather work 60 hours a week or play with kids and hang out with other moms? Since Men don't want to work 60 hours a week they also will be single. The ones that do work 60 hours a week though will probably be too tired to date and just indulge their sexual needs elsewhere. If Japan wants to fix their baby crisis, they would do widespread labor reform and reform the marriage contract to make sure both sides are fairly treated. I guess I have to site my sources. I said women in Japan. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/04/08/editorials/still-a-struggle-for-working-women/#.WsHoIojwaUk https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2012/06/04/editorials/married-women-want-to-work/#.WsHoOYjwaUk https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/a04601/ http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21880124 Note, these are fairly balanced. And talk about it from both sides. But I don't think of staying home as "easier" speaking as someone who did infact, stay home and care for their brothers and sisters as a young adult and missed out on her chance at a normal education and went insane doing it. Labor reform would be great. Expecting one person to bring home all the money but then pay them very little, is a bad idea. Slut and arranged marriage don't always go together. For their to be a mutual cooperative relationship though the sexual standards of males and females need to be taken into account. Slut's generally are not good marriage material preference for most males. Family is the bedrock of a society, if it falls apart so does your society which is why sluts are not good. I am the oldest of 10 kids. Every last one of us was different in ability. I was the most intelligent but frail one, in the group. In Gymnastics and Ice Skating as well as theater. I am a gamer and like anime. You have my sister who was very tall, physically strong, has beaten guys up (and no that isn't a good thing), and extremely athletic. Did basketball and softball. Has had many boyfriends, all of them 6'5 or taller because she is tall. Usually also sporty. Though one was a very sensitive boy... he didn't last long. next sister down is balanced. normal body type more average grades, she does the best btw, because she is well rounded, socially, and physically, fits the idea of what society wants women to be. Cheerleading (the most dangerous sport)Does not play video games. Has a military husband. Brother next in line- Very athletic and successful at it. Not socially as good as third in line sister. He is a heavy thinker. Is meticulous and quiet. Baseball. Next brother- Outgoing goofball. Plays a lot of video games. Had athletic ability, chooses to stay inside. Gets distracted easily... is now the slowest boy in class, even slower than the girls. Not fat. Just not motivated. Next brother- Really into life on the farm. But is also lazy. Is the only one of my siblings who is fat. Is a gamer. Next Sister. Sweet, loves make up, playing dress up. extremely polite, but very shy. In no way athletic. Plays Piano. This is probably the sister I am most like. There are more, but you get my point. I am the oldest, and have nerdy masculine traits. My sister second oldest has athletic masculine traits. Third sister who is successful was raised by my mom. All the rest of us are raised by my dad. :/ Why is it, that the girliest one is the most successful and has the highest paying job? Men typically want to avoid marriage. It is women who want marriage. It is not a majority of men who put value on "marriage material" is largely demographical, not universal to all men. Which is why men average way more sex partners than women. And don't even live by their own standards they put on women. Women are expected to marry men, regardless of how much of a slut they have been throughout their life. Least from a historical stand point. Throughout human history women have been punished for being unfaithful, but not men. Men are almost always except from this. (not modern day but majority of human history) The topics I listed are just examples of what Feminism has lead to. The core crux of those topics all leads back to advocating for less female responsibilities. That is the core argument of what Feminists actually advocate for. I cannot understand what you are trying to say here. Feminism for me has always been about real equality. When I first learned about it, it was through great women like Susan B. Anthony. It is about women trying to force themselves into society. Pushing yourself out there is not having less responsibility, it is having more. The responsibility of being a respected voice. Fighting for your seat at the table isn't about less responsibility, it is about having shared responsibility. Paternity test has been outlawed in some countries without court order in some western countries. The point is its a Feminist issue in those countries because it allows women to more easily skirt paternity fraud and still keep their meal ticket. I don't think single parents are good for society because statistically they raise more criminals and unstable children. Society needs to incentivize Families to be stable and stay together instead of using their rugrats in a extortion chess game that is many family courts. Why are you talking to me like I support no paternity tests? Why are men women's meal ticket? Why do they need men in order to support themselves in these countries? What you are talking about is a direct result of the patriarchy. Which says men should make all the money and women can make babies. What do you think is going to happen in a society like that? Breakdown of the family is nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with a lot of other things. The primary threat to the family is economic instability. People having to work more than 40 hours a week is unhealthy. Multiparent homes are ideal even among feminists. However, sometimes a single parent home is unavoidable, and those people still deserve communal support. But no one is saying it is ideal. Just that it is a realistic fact of life. It would be great if I could get help with housing without having to have a baby. But most programs designed to help the poor, only help people with children. Poor people who are married (like myself) are penalized financially. The social safety nets are by design only for single people or single people who have a kid. If they just simply gave all people the same amount regardless of marital status, there would be less of an issue. (if your response is to not support poor people, well I don't know what to say. Seems you are the very classist you claim to be against.) Divorce is really awful in Japan. This is a perfect example of why they don't get married. Man can say goodbye to his children and woman must live on welfare which puts a strain on the state. Yeah but that is a result of the gender roles feminism is trying to fix. Everyone, it would not cost much if they factored it into the birthing procedural at hospitals. Its a perfect time because doctors are already doing all sort of tests on the baby anyway. I mean sure, if you want to pay $5000, my dad has really good insurance. And it was still 5k only to find, the baby was his. Fat acceptance is not just about people saying "eww fat person", its about shaming men to being attracted to fat women. Feminism picked this subject because they want men to lower their standards. "Women shouldn't eat healthy, be obese you are still beautiful its those evil men and the patriarchy". I brought this up not because Japan has fat acceptance its because the motivations of feminists once against results to less female responsibility or sticking it to male standards of beauty. East Asian l countries are probably a bit overboard on the fat shaming but they do have it right on eating healthier than western countries. Most men already have lower standards than they would ever like to admit. "Most men would stick their dick in a beehive if you paid them enough."- husband. There are definitely two sides of the fat acceptance movement. One side is like you are saying. However there is another side which is more about just allowing them to be safe as themselves in social spaces. Without ridicule. If you acknowledge Japan has gone too far in the cultural shame of fat people, we are on the same page. I agree you shouldn't be shamed, blackmailed whatever, into finding anyone attractive. The issue with abortion is not because its moral because it gives women in out of their responsibility in sexual intercourse while giving them the ability to force responsibility on men(at least in western countries). Men are given a false sense of security by abortion when leads to them into making irresponsible decisions that will ruin their lives through child support. I think we should teach people to be responsible instead of holding the government's hand and giving out free birth control. Abortion has no connection to the decline in marriage. The topic of affirmative consent is brought up because the law is designed to give women to call regret sex rape. Affirmative consent is not typical in sexual encounters, rarely do people go " I AM ABOUT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU IS IT OKAY!". Almost everything is through body language not through speech. This law is designed by Feminists to give women an out of an affair or a revenge plan against their estranged boyfriend. Once again its about responsibility and this time it also about control. All of this has been more about your personal morality rather than objective fact or feminism. You have been largely arguing on your own personal worldview rather than anything factual, either based in science or statistics. Abortion frees men just as much as it does women of responsibility. If you are blaming women for men making irresponsible choices, then you are the one who is trying to shift off all responsibility. It is not the fault of abortion that men make stupid decisions. Unless you are saying men are intellectually inferior, which is the opposite of what you were saying earlier. Are you arguing from a point of faith? Because that is not where my arguments are coming from. They are coming fact based data. And if you are basing your arguments on faith, it shows you cannot be objectively responsible. Faith isn't objective truth, it is subjective truth. I said the #1 reason abortions are had in Japan is NOT being married. Not that they cause divorce. lol. Stress from too many children is a primary cause of divorce. Do to increased conflict and economic strain. Most couples in the USA, divorce over finances. How do you propose we protect the disabled who cannot consent who have been considered "consenting by default" and still protect men against false rape accusations. And what makes rape accusations worse than being accused of a different crime? 80% of rapes don't even go to trial because of the humiliation. A majority of DNA in rape cases is never processed. And by the time they get around to it, a decade later, a woman has moved on with her life. Not because it wasn't traumatic, but because life has to move on, what else is she supposed to do. And in the case of men being raped, there is a huge problem. Many states wont even consider that men could be raped. And there is a lack of evidence problem. Cause the evidence would go into the woman. And she can walk away and shower it all off. Men aren't told about how to react after rape to preserve evidence like women are. If a man washes himself, it is way harder to get any proof. No matter who the victim is, rape cases are handled very poorly, underprosecuted, regardless of gender. Or Feminism. Feminism is just forced into this situation more often. Most rape victims are women. Doesn't negate there is a lot of male victims. It is a human problem. Not a feminist problem. Rape: A biologically condoned act which flies against culture. Further proof that culture exists inspite of biology. The falsely accused will lose his entire social network and career and reduce future romantic prospects. In the West its why people avoid being alone with women in the workplace. Its standard protocol to avoid being alone as man even with female children if they are a teacher. The court of public opinion holds way more power than the legal system on this topic which is why rape shield laws should apply to the victim and accused. The matter should be completely discrete to protect both parties from harm. People are becoming utterly paranoid one. And two, my experience is that men seem to be mostly unaffected when simply accused of rape. If you mean in court, I might be able to follow. It is more than just rape. there are people falsely convicted of murder, convicted, not just accused, and other crimes. They estimate 4% of people put to death were actually innocent. If being accused of rape is so damaging, just imagine being a genuine victim of rape and how damaging that is with societal expectations of purity? (And personal experience, men who are not brought to trial and walk free, don't lose their friends or job, or anything else. And nobody believes you, the rape victim. And if you are rich enough, you can get away with anything. ) |
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| @Energetic-Nova @15poundfish you two never heard of adding text under spoilers? PrettiBoiSlim said: I think the reality is that, at the end of the day, Japan is still fairly sexist. As is pretty much the rest of the world. Anime is one of those industries that has historically been dominated by men, and many of the most popular shows today seem to target primarily men. The ideologies of feminism are probably an afterthought. I recently watched Citrus. There was definitely potential there for elements of it, but I felt like they missed the mark on most of them. Come to think of it, Seirei no Moribito is probably the only series I've seen that really nailed some of the main feminist concepts such as strong female lead, little to no over sexualization, etc..Recovery of an MMO Junkie might also fit the bill as far as fantasy series go, though it's more like a fantasy/slice of life hybrid. Claymore and Fate/Zero came close, but still ended up falling into some of the same tropes that we've come to expect. I'm gonna have to look into some of the series mentioned here. My list is like a million shows longs, but feel free to suggest any others that might be relevant. I kinda agree to disagree, while Japan is still into conservative gender roles and has only little push from the government to ease it, animanga industry has actually had for long female scene compared to Europe and America comic industry, where you can still hear complains from female workers. Of course strictly speaking of anime male dominate it and have for long been the main audience, you can still tell animation studios have realized women also watch them. I don't think it would be too much of a reach to get feminist (loosely used here) show today. If you're into reading there's always Sailor moon manga, she's a feminist pop culture icon like Diana Prince for reasons. Also shamelessly promoting my favorite anime movie, check out Belladonna of Sadness. |
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urpoutta said: @Energetic-Nova @15poundfish you two never heard of adding text under spoilers? PrettiBoiSlim said: I think the reality is that, at the end of the day, Japan is still fairly sexist. As is pretty much the rest of the world. Anime is one of those industries that has historically been dominated by men, and many of the most popular shows today seem to target primarily men. The ideologies of feminism are probably an afterthought. I recently watched Citrus. There was definitely potential there for elements of it, but I felt like they missed the mark on most of them. Come to think of it, Seirei no Moribito is probably the only series I've seen that really nailed some of the main feminist concepts such as strong female lead, little to no over sexualization, etc..Recovery of an MMO Junkie might also fit the bill as far as fantasy series go, though it's more like a fantasy/slice of life hybrid. Claymore and Fate/Zero came close, but still ended up falling into some of the same tropes that we've come to expect. I'm gonna have to look into some of the series mentioned here. My list is like a million shows longs, but feel free to suggest any others that might be relevant. I kinda agree to disagree, while Japan is still into conservative gender roles and has only little push from the government to ease it, animanga industry has actually had for long female scene compared to Europe and America comic industry, where you can still hear complains from female workers. Of course strictly speaking of anime male dominate it and have for long been the main audience, you can still tell animation studios have realized women also watch them. I don't think it would be too much of a reach to get feminist (loosely used here) show today. If you're into reading there's always Sailor moon manga, she's a feminist pop culture icon like Diana Prince for reasons. Also shamelessly promoting my favorite anime movie, check out Belladonna of Sadness. True, and let's not forget Kyoto Animation who have a fairly balanced gender staff. Animation in itself is still largely a man bastion but they've subverted this ever since their start. |
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| I don't think Japanese media see feminism as uplifting the female gender so much as treating the females as equals to their male lead counterparts. Which is heavily different. When I read behind the scenes notes and talks with the creators a lot of them talk about gender relatively lightly. They'll talk about how easy it is to have switched the genders on certain characters earlier in development or nonchalantly talk about how it was just cool to write an action heroine in a certain light. I find it a lighter topic in general. I do think there are some set in their way if not think that having a happy ending with child and husband is the best outcome but it's becoming more and more rare and much more with older series. And as many creators as there are with those scopes there are quite a few with much more progressive if not setting new paths in motion for the industry. |
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FunkyNano said: Energetic-Nova said: There is no difference between women's rights activists and feminism. It is literally the same thing. Culture is a structurally learned concept and has nothing to do with biology. If biology dictated rules, there would be no need for rules, because we would all follow them naturally. Culture exists in spite of, not because of biology. I agree with some of what you've said, but both of these statements seem too extreme. Sure, there's an overlap between women's rights activism and feminism, but as you pointed out in your original response: There are two ways in which feminists go about things. Liberation is step one usually. Part two is usually more about equality in the law but also about in culture. There are two distinct facets to the movement- you've simply decided to classify them both as feminism, while @15PoundFish has decided to refer to the former as women's rights activisim, and the latter as feminism. You've come pretty close to agreeing with each-other, you've just decided to use different terminology. As for the second statement, you're right that culture is learned, but that doesn't mean that it has nothing to do with biology. Everything sociological is at first biological. An alpha wolf will be ripped to shreds by his pack members if he behaves tyrannically, because his behaviour is to the detriment of his group. Wolves don't legislate, but they know pathological behaviour when they see it. We make rules because we're self-conscious animals. We have the capacity to see that we are vulnerable, and therefore, that others are vulnerable. The laws we make are in place to prevent you from suffering as much as they are in place to prevent you from causing others to suffer. It's a biologically-advantageous negotiation between individuals. I don't know what to say other than "you are wrong" "Mainstream feminism" as a general term identifies feminist ideologies and movements which do not fall into either the socialist or radical feminist camps. The mainstream feminist movement traditionally focused on political and legal reform, and has its roots in first-wave feminism and in the historical liberal feminism of the 19th and early-20th centuries. In 2017, Angela Davis referred to mainstream feminism as "bourgeois feminism" So the ones that work with the government ^^^ Emma Goldman, pioneer anarcha-feminist author and activist. Anarcha-feminism (also called anarchist feminism and anarcho-feminism) combines anarchism with feminism. It generally views patriarchy as a manifestation of involuntary hierarchy. Anarcha-feminists believe that the struggle against patriarchy is an essential part of class struggle and of the anarchist struggle against the state.[9] In essence, the philosophy sees anarchist struggle as a necessary component of feminist struggle and vice versa. As L. Susan Brown puts it, "as anarchism is a political philosophy that opposes all relationships of power, it is inherently feminist". ^^^ Ones which are anti-government and believe the government itself is patriarchy Black feminism argues that sexism, class oppression, and racism are inextricably bound together.[Forms of feminism that strive to overcome sexism and class oppression but ignore race can discriminate against many people, including women, through racial bias. So intersectional, focus on black people and classism. Cultural feminism is the ideology of a "female nature" or "female essence" that attempts to revalidate what they consider undervalued female attributes. It emphasizes the difference between women and men but considers that difference to be psychological, and to be culturally constructed rather than biologically innate. Its critics assert that, because it is based on an essentialist view of the differences between women and men and advocates independence and institution building, it has led feminists to retreat from politics to "life-style" Basically these are lifestyle radical feminists who prefer separation rather than actually fighting any sort of oppression. Typically live in their own communes. Eco-feminism: Hippies, anti-nucs, anti-war, nature lover feminists who believe ownership of property is wrong and is right in line with ownership of women. Very much a vegan crowd. Generally believe in respecting life and the earth. French Feminists- basically people who believe in writing in inherently alienating female language as if it is code. Study philosophy, and like to critic things in a female lens way. It is also called "post structural" It is basically like Evangelion if it were a feminist. Liberal feminism- a lot like mainstream feminism, they often overlap, but they are a lot more educated about the same thing. Strong emphasus in their movement for legal equality. Libertarian Feminist- combines anarchist with liberal feminism. Post-modern feminism- "For Butler, "woman" is a debatable category, complicated by class, ethnicity, sexuality, and other facets of identity. She states that gender is performative. This argument leads to the conclusion that there is no single cause for women's subordination and no single approach towards dealing with the issue." "postmodernist feminist, criticized mainstream feminism as being too narrowly focused and inattentive to related issues of race and class" Radical feminism- Usually arm in arm with cultural feminism, Capitalism is sexist to these people, any form of sex with men is rape because men have power and rape is about power, and they are pretty in favor of overturning anything they can created by men and for men. They also are anti-porn and are in direct opposition with the legal side as well as sex positive feminists. - Another sub category of this is :Separatist feminism is a form of radical feminism that does not support heterosexual relationships. And I have personally talked with a few people like this. It is pretty freaky. Socialist or Marxist feminists: Hate Capitalism, believe that people devalue female labor especially when it is domestic related. This section usually shoots for the moon in terms of what they would like to change. Usually focused on class oppression rather than just women. There are additionally many different groups of Sex positive feminism. But for the most part, they strongly fight for better porn industry practices. For the most part are pro-legal prostitution (but mostly because of , well a lot of logical reasons....system seems to punish the women more than they punish the pimp or the john kinda thing) Typically, these feminists are into BDSM and promote "Safe, sane, consensual". Sex positive feminists think other feminists who criticize them for what is "just fantasy" or "just play" are an insult to the intellect of all women and men. While there very much were second wave feminists who were not so pro gay, ex-positive feminists believe that women's liberation cannot be achieved without also promoting acceptance of homosexuality and bisexuality. While I have heard some feminists especially Janice Raymond (who I have legit spoken with, she is crazy, and thought my thoughts were internalized misogyny and word rape), call trans women rapists in sheeps clothing.... lol, sex positive feminists kinda just hate these people? So yeah, sex positive feminists support gender fluidity and the right to gender identity. Big debate: Statutory rape laws being possibly seen as a form of oppression especially when women develop faster then men. The uneven enforcement of such laws feels sexist to most in this group. But yeah, some arguements. like I said. not agreed. And the critics from other feminist circles on this kind of feminism is HILARIOUS and yeah is very insulting to a woman's ability to make her own choices. Some say that sex-positive feminists caused more harm than good making male entitlement when it comes to sex worse. Sex positive feminists tend to have a bad habit of ignoring rape as an issue in general. More focused on how to help other women have orgasms, how to help people be happy in an existing sex partnership. Self Pleasure. The idea of taking your own virginity. ^.^; I hope that helps. Some groups of feminist are very contradictory to others. |
Energetic-NovaApr 2, 2018 7:23 AM
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