In the long run, it all comes down on how YOU experienced a show... in deciding which anime you like and consider a masterpiece
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Dec 15, 2016 6:02 PM
#1
I know that you people here are allergic to Youtube videos and especially from Anime related content creators but Gigguk has just recently made a video that I think what people who are passionate about anime should always be reminded about. I myself think that you can really look at an anime in a purely technical(critical) lens but looking at it with only those is missing the point. Even if you classify several shows as art or as just a product.... YOUR own experience with it is the only thing that matters, in the long run. If you loved so much despite noticing that it doesn't hold up when examined critically.... that shouldn't matter. Dry, technical stuff shouldn't matter in the long run in a medium that can sometimes be art or that can be sometimes just a product for entertainment. Well, enough rambling, thoughts? |
ethotDec 15, 2016 6:08 PM
Dec 15, 2016 6:08 PM
#2
Yeah I saw this just recently as well, he's 100% correct. |
My Queens |
Dec 15, 2016 6:08 PM
#3
Kimi no Pico Wa is literally the best anime ever created, and a critical success (almost as big as Bananya) |
Dec 15, 2016 6:11 PM
#4
Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. If we shelter ourselves in the lonesome solitude of our own limited perspective, then we are surely missing out on the larger things life and putting to waste the gifts of modern communication and collective knowledge. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. |
CkanDec 15, 2016 6:14 PM
Dec 15, 2016 6:14 PM
#5
No offense CG, truly, but it's always extremely predictable seeing where you get your ideas for your threads even before opening them. But yeah, I agree with him. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:16 PM
#6
Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:20 PM
#7
I've been preaching this forever. Even more than just how much a show resonates with you is these perceived "objective" issues. I've found that many people have had issues with a show which I never really noticed or that never bothered me, while I'd point out issues which other people weren't bothered by. Hell, some shows I despise for the same reasons other love them. It really all comes down to YOU as a viewer with experiences and even upbringing which shape your tastes. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:21 PM
#8
CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:22 PM
#9
Ckan said: Am i really all the things that outside of me?CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. What matters is how YOU relate and affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:23 PM
#10
Ckan said: CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is how YOU relate and affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. Well, enjoy living a life like that. I won't. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:23 PM
#11
CapitalistGod said: I know that you people here are allergic to Youtube videos and especially from Anime related content creators but Gigguk has just recently made a video that I think what people who are passionate about anime should always be reminded about. I myself think that you can really look at an anime in a purely technical(critical) lens but looking at it with only those is missing the point. Even if you classify several shows as art or as just a product.... YOUR own experience with it is the only thing that matters, in the long run. If you loved so much despite noticing that it doesn't hold up when examined critically.... that shouldn't matter. Dry, technical stuff shouldn't matter in the long run in a medium that can sometimes be art or that can be sometimes just a product for entertainment. Well, enough rambling, thoughts? If by "dry, technical stuff" you mean quality of characters, storyline, thematic development, formal innovation, emotional appeal, depth, etc, then yes, it actually does matter in the long run in ANY medium that can sometimes be art or sometimes a product for entertainment. Note the fact when we talk about, for example, novels from the early 20th century, we are rarely speaking about anything OTHER than novels that were exemplary or innovative in some way. That doesn't mean it should affect whether or not you choose to enjoy a show, but the fact is stuff that is mediocre is rarely spoken about in the decades following its release and the situation is the opposite of what you describe. Also it's pretty obvious you have an agenda from the fact you argue the "critical" lens is identical to a dry, technical one when this is anything but the case - most critics aren't saying "This anime is good because it uses 10 shots from this angle, 13 shots from this angle, the key frame animation is precise, blah blah blah blah," which would certainly be dry. They're arguing for the usage of those technical aspects in service of a larger whole, a thematic goal, a unique style, etc. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM
#12
It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 6:25 PM
#13
Wait, people didn't know this already? An unexplored level of retardation has been reached by humanity thanks to the Anime community. |
. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:28 PM
#14
OP, you just really created a thread in what @EcchiLordMamster and I'm saying(not always though)... You do believe in that shitty YT dude, and don't believe in us, like really? Dude WTF? |
Dec 15, 2016 6:30 PM
#15
I like School Days. Other people don't like School Days. People criticize me for liking School Days. I laugh at people that don't like School Days. But I don't force them to like School Days. Because humans are able to accept and forgive. And so, move beyond that... |
Dec 15, 2016 6:37 PM
#16
There was a time I thought my favorite anime were flawless. Looking back at them, I can see all their flaws and weaknesses. I still like them, of course, because, you know, nostalgic feelings and all that. But there really is no perfect anime to me personally. Even my most favorite anime are no more than an 8/10. But when I was younger these anime had a lot more impact on my imagination than they do now, so a lot of it has to do with becoming more critical in thought, and just noticing imperfection in everything in general. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:38 PM
#17
DON'T I ALWAYS SAY THIS? LOL i am someone who enjoys anime that are heavily criticized, many of which are 5-6.0s think im gonna stop watching them because people think theyre bad? i for example, like SAO... and get extremely annoying having to see another 624624546326254752254165473563 SAO sucks comments if you think theres something wrong with me for liking what i like and not prioritizing what you think i should... FUCK YOU.... i didn't watch the video btw lol.. i don't watch reviewers |
Dec 15, 2016 6:45 PM
#18
There is no way in hell someone is going to make me watch a video made by giggukancer no matter what it is about. YOUR own experience with it is the only thing that matters Also duh thx captain obvious... |
Dec 15, 2016 6:45 PM
#19
truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it comes to seasonal anime for eg. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talking about is irrelevant to the newer generation. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:47 PM
#20
It seems pretty obvious that the two are closely related, "dry technical shots" greatly increases the probability that more people will have a positive experience with the anime. |
Dec 15, 2016 6:47 PM
#21
I've watched a lot of things with terrible reviews and low ratings, and found most of them great. I've really enjoyed them. If you want to watch something even though other people don't like it, watch it. If you like it, awesome. Props to you for finding something you like even though you were discouraged by other peoples opinions. If you don't like it, then that's fine too. But don't act all high and mighty because some other people do like it and you're feeling special dumping on the bandwagon of people that dislike something. It really doesn't matter. People have different tastes, that's the whole point as to why there's so much variety. For example Ecchi gets dissed a lot, but also a lot of people love it, I'm one of those people. And I don't care if other people don't like it, I have a good time watching it and that's what matters. Your personal view as to what you enjoy is all that's important. |
nσthíng вσnds twσ sσuls mσrє sσundlч thαn m u r d є r |
Dec 15, 2016 6:50 PM
#22
keragamming said: truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it coes to seasonal anime. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since, the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talkong about is irrelevant to the newer generation. that's my point, that people don't 'forget' about those series as much as not care about them as soon as other shows are on, because fundamentally the mediocre series are interchangeable with one another. on the other hand people still talk about evangelion, serial experiments lain, lotgh, etc, etc. because those offer reasons to talk about them beyond "THEY'RE AIRING RIGHT NOW." memorable identity is built out of the 'dry technical stuff.' and the novels i'm talking about aren't irrelevant to the newer generation, they're irrelevant to YOU. don't confuse the two. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 6:52 PM
#23
Dec 15, 2016 6:54 PM
#24
I don't watch youtubers. . . But well, for some people, analyzing is a part of enjoying a thing (anime). . . |
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Dec 15, 2016 7:00 PM
#25
@truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? |
Dec 15, 2016 7:02 PM
#26
CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 7:06 PM
#27
While it is true that it is ultimately your own choice whether you like a series, you should still be open for discussion. If you will love your favorite anime unconditionally and are unwilling to take shit from anyone else then why are you even on the discussion forums. Tastes reflect who you are as a person, but you shouldn't be completely shut out to the possibility of different perspectives. |
Dec 15, 2016 7:10 PM
#28
truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it coes to seasonal anime. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since, the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talkong about is irrelevant to the newer generation. that's my point, that people don't 'forget' about those series as much as not care about them as soon as other shows are on, because fundamentally the mediocre series are interchangeable with one another. on the other hand people still talk about evangelion, serial experiments lain, lotgh, etc, etc. because those offer reasons to talk about them beyond "THEY'RE AIRING RIGHT NOW." memorable identity is built out of the 'dry technical stuff.' and the novels i'm talking about aren't irrelevant to the newer generation, they're irrelevant to YOU. don't confuse the two. You mean one or two persons talking about those series? Those series are still being talk about simple because they have been recommended by someone else and they have watch it. Those are basically the top anime recommended beginners guide to become a elitist. Just like the top most recommened mainstream anime for new timers, like snk, death note, fmab, cowboy bebop, sao, code geass ect. Those novels are irrelevant, and the more years goes by the more irrelevant it becomes. How many people are watching early 2000 anime not to mention 90s anime? Just a small percentage. The current anime fans are more focus on stuff that is currently airing, which is a natural thing to do. |
keragammingDec 15, 2016 7:15 PM
Dec 15, 2016 7:18 PM
#29
keragamming said: truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it coes to seasonal anime. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since, the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talkong about is irrelevant to the newer generation. that's my point, that people don't 'forget' about those series as much as not care about them as soon as other shows are on, because fundamentally the mediocre series are interchangeable with one another. on the other hand people still talk about evangelion, serial experiments lain, lotgh, etc, etc. because those offer reasons to talk about them beyond "THEY'RE AIRING RIGHT NOW." memorable identity is built out of the 'dry technical stuff.' and the novels i'm talking about aren't irrelevant to the newer generation, they're irrelevant to YOU. don't confuse the two. You mean one or two persons talking about those series? Those series are still being talk about simple because they have been recommended by someone else and they have watch it. Those are basically the top anime recommended beginners guide to become a elitist. Just like the top most recommened mainstream anime for new timers, like snk, death note, fmab, cowboy bebop, sao, code geass ect. Those novels are irrelevant, and the more years goes by the more irrelevant it becomes. How many people are watching early 2000 anime not to mention 90s anime? Just a small percentage. so your argument is that technical aspects don't matter more in the long run because... NOTHING matters in the long run, including how much you enjoy it, because those will be irrelevant, and everything will be lost in the crowd? i'm not that profoundly nihilistic, sorry. one or two people is a huge understatement and you're most likely aware of that. and it's not about the fact it's a small percentage, it's the fact that most people who will continue to read novels years after they're published, i.e. in the long run, actually care about novels or reading, and are not reading only for the purpose of having something to talk about with 4 people they barely know at work. same with anime, same with movies. i'm not about to cater to the least interested/most ignorant here. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 7:20 PM
#30
ermgerd what a revolutionary new idea nobody has ever thought of this one before |
"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Dec 15, 2016 7:22 PM
#31
Well that felt like a slight waste of time. I guess I did unsub to him for a reason. Video was basically 4 minutes of him reviewing Kimi no Na wa and 4 minutes of him padding out the obvious. |
Dec 15, 2016 7:30 PM
#32
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false What matters with every individual in the long run... is this. |
Dec 15, 2016 7:34 PM
#33
CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false What matters with every individual in the long run... is this. i disagree, i think what matters to people in the long run will be things they care about or that affected them deeply, not shit they enjoyed for 2 months in 2014. people aren't in it for the long run anyways, they're in for the limited amount of time they spend on earth. but this isn't the argument you started anyways |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 7:35 PM
#34
got to admit that is one mood uplifting video and i agree with him when he said that he have more respect on reviewers that describes the good viewing experience of an anime show rather than focusing on describing how unrealistic or irrational or impossible the anime show is which is like majority of MAL reviews from what i can tell (although i can be wrong on this since i rarely read reviews here) elitism in anime is getting cancerous so the message he presented maybe so obvious but its a good reminder for a lot of anime fans that only watch anime just to find flaws and criticize them ye i get it sturgeons law says 90% of everything is crap and i can agree to that as well but not everybody have the same experience when watching an anime is just the main point here |
Dec 15, 2016 7:46 PM
#35
truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it coes to seasonal anime. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since, the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talkong about is irrelevant to the newer generation. that's my point, that people don't 'forget' about those series as much as not care about them as soon as other shows are on, because fundamentally the mediocre series are interchangeable with one another. on the other hand people still talk about evangelion, serial experiments lain, lotgh, etc, etc. because those offer reasons to talk about them beyond "THEY'RE AIRING RIGHT NOW." memorable identity is built out of the 'dry technical stuff.' and the novels i'm talking about aren't irrelevant to the newer generation, they're irrelevant to YOU. don't confuse the two. You mean one or two persons talking about those series? Those series are still being talk about simple because they have been recommended by someone else and they have watch it. Those are basically the top anime recommended beginners guide to become a elitist. Just like the top most recommened mainstream anime for new timers, like snk, death note, fmab, cowboy bebop, sao, code geass ect. Those novels are irrelevant, and the more years goes by the more irrelevant it becomes. How many people are watching early 2000 anime not to mention 90s anime? Just a small percentage. so your argument is that technical aspects don't matter more in the long run because... NOTHING matters in the long run, including how much you enjoy it, because those will be irrelevant, and everything will be lost in the crowd? i'm not that profoundly nihilistic, sorry. one or two people is a huge understatement and you're most likely aware of that. and it's not about the fact it's a small percentage, it's the fact that most people who will continue to read novels years after they're published, i.e. in the long run, actually care about novels or reading, and are not reading only for the purpose of having something to talk about with 4 people they barely know at work. same with anime, same with movies. i'm not about to cater to the least interested/most ignorant here. Just telling the truth, for eg we all are going to die eventually, that is a fact, does that mean we shouldn't do anything with our life? Of course not. You are talking about stuff that doesn't work well in this current time. Your statement would make more sense back in the early 2000 and 90s when there was less anime being produce per year and the internet and technology wasn't such a big thing yet. |
keragammingDec 15, 2016 7:49 PM
Dec 15, 2016 7:48 PM
#36
Ckan said: CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. Hey, you know what a conglomeration of insignificant specks in the universe is called? An insignificant speck. By what you state in the beginning of your argument, I'd say it doesn't make too much sense in saying a whole is that important at all and matters over the individual; contrarily, our insignificance in the universe as an individual and as all of human kind is exactly what makes subjectivity so important. As it stands now, you see through your eyes, you hear through your ears, you live with your life, and if we're all to amount to nothing anyways so why don't you live the way you want. Of course then what I said shouldn't faze you at all since you have the right to live the way you want and think the way you want. In my philosophy, as long as you don't restrict one's rights to think freely and act freely with your freedom, if harmonious coexistence is possible by your methods, then you can do what you want. Well, I pretty much invalidated my own argument but meh, I like these kind of conversations. |
Dec 15, 2016 7:50 PM
#37
keragamming said: truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: keragamming said: truisms said: It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. It goes both ways, a anime just needs to have that memorable identity, it has nothing to do with being critical or not. And another thing, we are in the internet age where everything is moving quickly, as one show ends, they move on to the next, if not you will be left behind. That is how it feel when it coes to seasonal anime. And its not like persons forgot about those series, its just that they don't have much time to talk about that anime since, the next hot series is already airing and everyone is talking about it. The age where a lot of persons spend years talking about one series is done and dusted. And those novels you are talkong about is irrelevant to the newer generation. that's my point, that people don't 'forget' about those series as much as not care about them as soon as other shows are on, because fundamentally the mediocre series are interchangeable with one another. on the other hand people still talk about evangelion, serial experiments lain, lotgh, etc, etc. because those offer reasons to talk about them beyond "THEY'RE AIRING RIGHT NOW." memorable identity is built out of the 'dry technical stuff.' and the novels i'm talking about aren't irrelevant to the newer generation, they're irrelevant to YOU. don't confuse the two. You mean one or two persons talking about those series? Those series are still being talk about simple because they have been recommended by someone else and they have watch it. Those are basically the top anime recommended beginners guide to become a elitist. Just like the top most recommened mainstream anime for new timers, like snk, death note, fmab, cowboy bebop, sao, code geass ect. Those novels are irrelevant, and the more years goes by the more irrelevant it becomes. How many people are watching early 2000 anime not to mention 90s anime? Just a small percentage. so your argument is that technical aspects don't matter more in the long run because... NOTHING matters in the long run, including how much you enjoy it, because those will be irrelevant, and everything will be lost in the crowd? i'm not that profoundly nihilistic, sorry. one or two people is a huge understatement and you're most likely aware of that. and it's not about the fact it's a small percentage, it's the fact that most people who will continue to read novels years after they're published, i.e. in the long run, actually care about novels or reading, and are not reading only for the purpose of having something to talk about with 4 people they barely know at work. same with anime, same with movies. i'm not about to cater to the least interested/most ignorant here. Just telling the truth, for eg we all are going to die eventually, that is a fact, does that mean we shouldn't do anything with our life? Of course not. You are talking about stuff that doesn't work well in this current time. Your statement would make more sense back in the early 2000 and 90s when there was less anime being produce per year and the internet and technology wasn't such a big thing yet. precisely, we are all going to die one day, which is exactly why how much YOU enjoy something matters less than nothing |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 8:02 PM
#38
Ckan said: Then, I guess what matters is ME because I'm the most PERFECT human being in the world.CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.Ckan said: Not gonna watch another shill's video, but if the point here is like what you like, no shit. There's certainly no reason to angst over whether your 'enjoyed' favourites are of a masterpiece quality, but neither does that mean that such standards are irrelevant. Technical and critical greatness exists, and a pursuit of that experience will never be irrelevant for those that care about the possibility of anime. If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. |
Dec 15, 2016 8:11 PM
#39
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false What matters with every individual in the long run... is this. i disagree, i think what matters to people in the long run will be things they care about or that affected them deeply, not shit they enjoyed for 2 months in 2014. people aren't in it for the long run anyways, they're in for the limited amount of time they spend on earth. but this isn't the argument you started anyways I think I'm talking about all personal reasons... Enjoyment is also personal... That affection is also personal. And those personal reasons is the thing that only matter more than anything. |
Dec 15, 2016 8:18 PM
#40
CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false What matters with every individual in the long run... is this. i disagree, i think what matters to people in the long run will be things they care about or that affected them deeply, not shit they enjoyed for 2 months in 2014. people aren't in it for the long run anyways, they're in for the limited amount of time they spend on earth. but this isn't the argument you started anyways I think I'm talking about all personal reasons... Enjoyment is also personal... That affection is also personal. And those personal reasons is the thing that only matter more than anything. If you claim every possible reason, including critical analysis, qualifies as personal, and then claim personal reactions are what matter in the long run, there's not much of a point making the second argument anyways |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 8:24 PM
#41
I'm actually currently working on an analysis of Non Non Biyori to attempt to deconstruct exactly where my enjoyment is coming from. This could be useful in arguments as well as just to understand my own taste better. Nothing can be objectively good, but enjoyment has to come from somewhere. Non Non Biyori is an anime that I really enjoyed but I don’t know exactly why. I will be comparing it to other anime to see if I can figure out exactly what made it so enjoyable to me. The story in Non Non Biyori is pretty simple: it’s about a girl from Tokyo who moves to a rural part of the country, likely a hamlet. Although it’s supposed to be about her getting used to her new lifestyle, this intent is lost fast and just like Akari from Yuru Yuri she eventually doesn’t even seem like the protagonist anymore. It’s not really a problem since in my opinion this anime works better with a group lead than a single protagonist at the head of the group, but the character introduced as the protagonist does seem to have the least characterization out of the main cast. It’s a common theory that the setting is what makes it so enjoyable because it’s relatable, but Tamako Market takes place in a town much more similar to my own and it wasn’t anywhere near as enjoyable. I had some problems with Tamako Market since the main character was the only one with decent character development and generally not much going on, but there wasn’t anything I can remember specifically about it that would make it that much worse than Non Non Biyori. The story of moving to a different place is a story that I can connect to since I once lived in Costa Rica for six months which has a very different culture and atmosphere than my own, but the exchanges in Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo, Kiniro Mosaic, and Ikoku Meiro no Croisée The Animation are much more similar to the situation I was in and I didn’t enjoy any of them quite as much as Non Non Biyori. I definitely had problems with these anime as well: I didn’t like the harem ending of Sakurasou, the accents in Kiniro Mosaic made the series feel fake, and Labyrinth felt more like a Japanese dub since it’s set in France with French characters. The art style could be a reason to like Non Non Biyori, after all the characters are very well designed and the background art is beautiful especially for such a long series. Starting with the character designs they all have realistic hair colours save Renge who despite having purple twintails fits in nicely with the art style. They’re obviously drawn as lolis and are never sexualized. They would make better younger sisters than girlfriends. The eye size is pretty typical for a seinen moe anime and although it obviously isn’t realistic it could arguably be the most attractive eye size in anime. Apart from Renge’s triangle mouth their faces all look fairly similar, but their face shapes are still distinct enough that their hair isn’t the only thing you can use to tell their head shots apart. The brother looks like a fairly generic anime boy and since he doesn’t even have a voice actor I haven’t felt any reason to remember his name. The two older characters Kaede, the candy store lady, and Kazuho, the teacher, have more unique designs than the main cast. Aside from how different the characters look from each other they all do have memorable designs even for a veteran of the moe genre such as myself. I wouldn’t necessarily consider Non Non Biyori’s designs to be my favourite designs, though. Anime adapted from video games such as Kantai Collection, Hyperdimension Neptunia, and Idolmaster have more attractive designs in my opinion. Apart from Aikatsu and Steins;Gate I can’t remember any anime adapted from a video that was actually well made especially in terms of competing against Non Non Biyori. Kantai Collection dragged out and although it’s lackluster storyline wasn’t any worse than Non Non Biyori’s absence of a solid story it still felt far less satisfying and halfway through I felt no drive to complete it. Hyperdimension Neptunia has some of the most beautiful character designs I’ve seen, but the story fails to be engaging and as fun as the characters are to be with it wasn’t that enjoyable of an anime. Idolmaster does have some character development and the story has some substance to it, but with 14 main characters and only 25 episodes it doesn’t have enough time to give any of them that deep of characterization. Aikatsu I already consider to be better than Non Non Biyori so its strengths and weaknesses are irrelevant. Steins;Gate is adapted from a visual novel with a story that has many paths but only one of which was adapted into the anime. The story is good, the characters are designed well, and it’s incredibly enjoyable, but for whatever reason I still rank it below Non Non Biyori. Steins;Gate is a very different series from Non Non Biyori, but the reasons I liked the two series still share a considerable amount of overlap. Both of the anime have likable characters and are set in a fairly small yet well developed area. Steins;Gate explores its setting by showing the characters changing the very world they live in through sending simple text messages and Non Non Biyori explores its setting by showing the characters travelling around through their little village and using different ways to indicate just how far apart different parts of their village are from each other. If the character design truly was the thing that made the anime so enjoyable then High School Fleet, the other anime Atto provided character designs for, should have been as enjoyable, but I found that anime to be quite mediocre. The background art is very detailed, pretty, and shiny for an anime of its length. The three Makoko Shinkai films I’ve seen, Five Centimetres Per Second, Your Name, and Garden of Words have just as beautiful of backgrounds if not more beautiful, but as movies they only have so much time to make an impact and as good as their art was the stories in them were either too complicated for their runtime or otherwise weren’t quite as strong as what you would see in a series. The personalities of the characters aren’t too detailed and only serve as ways to move the plot forward rather than being important contributions to the enjoyability of the anime. The three anime series I distinctly remember as having as good of background art as Non Non Biyori are Yama no Susume, Glasslip, and Anohana. I know, it’s not everyday that someone would willingly compare their favourite anime to Glasslip, but I think it’s for the best. The first season of Yama no Susume has good backgrounds but is too short to draw any conclusions from; the second season I consider to be better than Non Non Biyori and therefore isn’t important for comparison. Glasslip is infamous for being far more uneventful than even anime like K-On! and Lucky Star. I think it would be safe to say that even if the background art was among the most important factors towards my enjoyment that all of the turn-offs in Glasslip would make it unenjoyable to even the people who valued background art the most, but there are still some people who enjoy Glasslip sincerely so it can’t simply be turned down as an anime impossible to enjoy no matter what your tastes. Not only does Glasslip not have any real characterization, but the intent of it being a supernatural romance is sort of forgotten about and nothing really happens throughout the series. In addition to no value in the storytelling there also weren’t any successful attempts at comedy. Anohana is a much better anime than Glasslip, but it still fails in a number of ways. The characters were interesting and well drawn, but the story of a dead friend who only the protagonist was incredibly unrealistic. My theory that Menma’s spirit was actually audio-only and Jintan was simply imagining her in physical form was shattered by the end due to conflicting information. Non Non Biyori doesn’t have any unexplained supernatural elements to bother me, but even anime with seemingly flawless magic systems like Death Note and Shigofumi rank lower on my list, but I won’t go into explaining those. What makes the background art so important in Non Non Biyori is where the anime takes place. The setting is quite unique and it’s the only slice of life anime I’ve seen set in a such a unique place that doesn’t have something to do with careers. Shirobako, Bartender, and Barakamon have similar settings, but Shirobako and Bartender are fairly slow and information heavy. Barakamon I saw right after Non Non Biyori and although there wasn’t really anything wrong with it I still didn’t enjoy it quite as much. As I was explaining before, Non Non Biyori does a lot with its small world. Unlike anime such as Sword Art Online and Gurren Lagann that have too big of a world to handle correctly the characters and the director do a good job at getting you to know where everything is without having to go everywhere in near-real time like Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. Having too small of a world can also be a problem. Seitokai no Ichizon takes place in a single room for the first few episodes and even when they do the school doesn’t feel as natural or well laid out as the village in Non Non Biyori. We all have our own taste and taste is subjective, but I still think it's good to know exactly why you enjoy certain anime more than others. |
Dec 15, 2016 8:29 PM
#42
But...but I'm the Arbiter of Absolute Truth! Everything I say is 100% correct! D: |
This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
Dec 15, 2016 8:32 PM
#43
Dec 15, 2016 8:35 PM
#44
@truisms I feel like I'm being misunderstand here, I am not saying you should accept reality, but atleast acknowledge it. We are straying from the point. This current age is moving towards everything being instant, for eg, persons wants the fastest pc and internet they can get because they want a system that respond quickly. News spread across the world in a matter of seconds, in the next 24 hours that news will be consider old, and if you make a thread or video about it 24hours later, you will be left in the dust, the majority of people want to be up to date, they want to be a part of everything. This applies to anime as well, current anime fans are more focus on what is currently airing and will make sure that they are up to date with the latest episode, especially when it comes to hype series, so they can be a psrt of the current live discussions, thus they have little time to focus on series that are not currently airing, especially the really older series. And this includes what they have to do daily in real life as well. Anyways the internet or social media is the true mastermind behind this , and if you don't want to be left behind, you need to get with the time. That's all I was saying. It's obvious just from looking at anime as recently as the 90s - how often do we talk about the works that had nothing technically interesting but were 'enjoyable'? almost never, because everybody forgets about them as soon as the next interchangeable 'enjoyable' anime comes around. It's a pretty low bar. So as I was saying, its not really the standards that has drop, but it more has to do with the current generation attention span which imo is mostly because of the internet or social media, and just the fast pace of anime, games and movies being released. |
keragammingDec 15, 2016 8:52 PM
Dec 15, 2016 8:48 PM
#45
keragamming said: @truisms I feel like I'm being misunderstand here, I am not saying you should accept reality, but atleast acknowledge it. We are straying from the point. This current age is moving towards everything being instant, for eg, persons wants the fastest pc and internet they can get because they want a system that respond quickly. News spread across the world in a matter of seconds, in the next 24 hours that news will be consider old, and if you make a thread or video about it 24hours later, you will be left in the dust, the majority of people want to be up to date, they want to be a part of everything. This applies to anime as well, current anime fans are more focus on what is currently airing and will make sure that they are up to date with the latest episode, especially when it comes to hype series, so they can be a psrt of the current live discussions, thus they have little time to focus on series that are not currently airing, especially the really older series. And this includes what they have to do daily in real life as well. Anyways the internet or social media is the true mastermind behind this , and if you don't want to be left behind, you need to get with the time. That's all I was saying. i understand what you were saying, and i was disagreeing that that by necessity affects the long-run standing of a work. but i am aware of what you're saying, don't get me wrong. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Dec 15, 2016 8:57 PM
#46
CapitalistGod said: If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. I think it's your use of the word "irrelevant" that's making me wince. Maybe you can expand on that. |
Dec 15, 2016 9:04 PM
#47
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truism I won't argue the point you're making since it's the "classics" that are remembered but those things that made it a classic becomes irrelevant to someone who either simply didn't like it or who didn't resonate with it or any other entirely personal reasons. Sure, it's a low bar but who cares? sure, i guess? my point wasn't that classics have universal appeal. your argument was that in the long run only enjoyment matters and i was arguing that in the long run that is entirely false What matters with every individual in the long run... is this. i disagree, i think what matters to people in the long run will be things they care about or that affected them deeply, not shit they enjoyed for 2 months in 2014. people aren't in it for the long run anyways, they're in for the limited amount of time they spend on earth. but this isn't the argument you started anyways I think I'm talking about all personal reasons... Enjoyment is also personal... That affection is also personal. And those personal reasons is the thing that only matter more than anything. If you claim every possible reason, including critical analysis, qualifies as personal, and then claim personal reactions are what matter in the long run, there's not much of a point making the second argument anyways Critical analysis that make it a point to point out how they we're personally affected by a show, sure... It still is entirely personal. |
Dec 15, 2016 9:13 PM
#48
That was a nice video. Faith in humanity restored. Thank you. |
Dec 15, 2016 9:21 PM
#49
You can't look at an anime objectively. It's impossible, since you're a person different from the rest and you have your own opinions and ideas. |
Dec 15, 2016 9:49 PM
#50
Gymkata said: CapitalistGod said: If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. I think it's your use of the word "irrelevant" that's making me wince. Maybe you can expand on that. If an anime didn't give you an enjoyable experience or it doesn't affect or resonate with you.... then how it holds up critically doesn't really matter.... or it is irrelevant. |
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