New
This topic has been locked and is no longer available for discussion.
Apr 10, 2018 8:34 AM
#201
@holysauron Madoka gave me slightly misogynistic vibes more than anything else tbh. Not that I remember it well. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Apr 10, 2018 8:40 AM
#202
KazuroWeisemann said: Some video you say .. Bring a video that says otherwise .. No, because it's irrelevant, which was my point. KazuroWeisemann said: I ll admit that would have been hard to understand .. but its a thinker .. Think deeply about it .. No guarantees you will get it though .. You don't even know what you're babbling about yourself. Cringe... DodgeOffset said: Feminist there obviously doesn't mean what it does in the west. Love how messed up the semantics behind this word has become, now you can stack these words up together out of their historical and social contexts and just conflate them as being the same thing. Because look! It's has the same spelling, no? This is the level at which these debates are carried out, and it's stupid. Feminism is always feminism. It doesn't have different meanings in each country... |
Apr 10, 2018 8:50 AM
#203
zodd0 said: KazuroWeisemann said: Some video you say .. Bring a video that says otherwise .. No, because it's irrelevant, which was my point. KazuroWeisemann said: I ll admit that would have been hard to understand .. but its a thinker .. Think deeply about it .. No guarantees you will get it though .. You don't even know what you're babbling about yourself. Cringe... DodgeOffset said: Feminist there obviously doesn't mean what it does in the west. Love how messed up the semantics behind this word has become, now you can stack these words up together out of their historical and social contexts and just conflate them as being the same thing. Because look! It's has the same spelling, no? This is the level at which these debates are carried out, and it's stupid. Feminism is always feminism. It doesn't have different meanings in each country... I never said "in each country." But hey, I'm not the troglodyte. You get to decide. |
Apr 10, 2018 9:16 AM
#204
AdolChri said: Are you saying Madoka isn't empowering to young girls? She pretty much destroys the current system in place, becomes a god and gives everyone hope. She's pretty much female jesus. Personally i think Madoka is empowering to everyone, why should it be just little girls? And the opposite as well. Why should only males look up to, for example, Deku? This differentiation is exactly what imo causes racism. When people stop paying attention to whether the hero was a male or a female, a black or a white person etc, then we can safely say racism is (at least in a large part) gone. holysauron said: This scene is considered feminist but now that I've watched it again I actually start to doubt it. Sayaka was pretty much in despair here and this was the final straw for her. Not even mentioning what I heard Urobuchi himself say about this. Now that I think about it he isn't exactly a feminist, is he? Rather the opposite. What did Urobochi say about it? got any links? It makes sense some people could view it as a feminist scene though. The 2 men are obviously intended to look like scum with what they are saying. At least that's what it looks like. Energetic-Nova said: Probably Japan as a nation themselves. They are kinda behind on women's rights in respect to well... the over 100 nations considered doing better for women right now. ah, is that so. I don't really know how exactly women are seen in Japan right now, but i guess its good that its not as bad as some other countries. |
Apr 10, 2018 9:41 AM
#205
Ya-Shiro said: AdolChri said: Are you saying Madoka isn't empowering to young girls? She pretty much destroys the current system in place, becomes a god and gives everyone hope. She's pretty much female jesus. Personally i think Madoka is empowering to everyone, why should it be just little girls? And the opposite as well. Why should only males look up to, for example, Deku? This differentiation is exactly what imo causes racism. When people stop paying attention to whether the hero was a male or a female, a black or a white person etc, then we can safely say racism is (at least in a large part) gone. holysauron said: This scene is considered feminist but now that I've watched it again I actually start to doubt it. Sayaka was pretty much in despair here and this was the final straw for her. Not even mentioning what I heard Urobuchi himself say about this. Now that I think about it he isn't exactly a feminist, is he? Rather the opposite. What did Urobochi say about it? got any links? It makes sense some people could view it as a feminist scene though. The 2 men are obviously intended to look like scum with what they are saying. At least that's what it looks like. Energetic-Nova said: Probably Japan as a nation themselves. They are kinda behind on women's rights in respect to well... the over 100 nations considered doing better for women right now. ah, is that so. I don't really know how exactly women are seen in Japan right now, but i guess its good that its not as bad as some other countries. Not a link but I remember reading somewhere that the girls are being punished for their actions. I think I even read this today. That little scene I posted here was basically Sayaka going mad. |
Apr 10, 2018 9:48 AM
#206
I still haven't seen feminists getting executed in anime. :/ That Madoka scene is a real thing Urobutcher heard while riding on the train and thought it was an appropriate way to enhance that scene, I don't think it's used to portray any political/social undertones but it definitely strikes with Sayaka's idealistic character and her loss of hope in that moment. |
Apr 10, 2018 10:19 AM
#207
Ya-Shiro said: AdolChri said: Are you saying Madoka isn't empowering to young girls? She pretty much destroys the current system in place, becomes a god and gives everyone hope. She's pretty much female jesus. Personally i think Madoka is empowering to everyone, why should it be just little girls? And the opposite as well. Why should only males look up to, for example, Deku? This differentiation is exactly what imo causes racism. >Racism What? Of course you can look up to Madoka, Madoka is ultimately about hope, but the women play a large part in the magical, uh, girls genre. Aquamirror said: I still haven't seen feminists getting executed in anime. :/ That Madoka scene is a real thing Urobutcher heard while riding on the train and thought it was an appropriate way to enhance that scene, I don't think it's used to portray any political/social undertones but it definitely strikes with Sayaka's idealistic character and her loss of hope in that moment. Posted with the wrong account? |
Apr 10, 2018 10:27 AM
#208
AdolChri said: Aquamirror said: I still haven't seen feminists getting executed in anime. :/ That Madoka scene is a real thing Urobutcher heard while riding on the train and thought it was an appropriate way to enhance that scene, I don't think it's used to portray any political/social undertones but it definitely strikes with Sayaka's idealistic character and her loss of hope in that moment. Posted with the wrong account? what |
Apr 10, 2018 10:32 AM
#209
AdolChri said: >Racism What? Of course you can look up to Madoka, Madoka is ultimately about hope, but the women play a large part in the magical, uh, girls genre. correct me if i'm wrong but, feminism is fighting against racism against women isn't it? unless i just confused the meaning and racism is strictly for racial discrimination (which makes sense XD) In my language we can use it like this though. Anyway, with my initial post, i was trying to say i didn't find PMMM as a feminist anime cause i didn't feel like Madoka, or anyone else, was trying to motivate women specifically, or show their strengths (as women). Obviously women play a big part in the magical girl genre, but in madoka's case i don't think they picked women cause they wanted to emphasize that they can be strong/ independent etc, but they wanted to take us by surprise by twisting a bright genre up until then mainly aimed at little girls. (not 100% sure about that though) Obviously, that is just how i personally saw it, maybe for someone who has old beliefs regarding women might be surprised by the anime, making them rethink about the subject, thus making PMMM (or any anime with similar content) a somewhat feminist anime, even if unintentionally by the creators. |
removed-userApr 10, 2018 10:36 AM
Apr 10, 2018 2:11 PM
#210
Ya-Shiro said: correct me if i'm wrong but, feminism is fighting against racism against women isn't it? unless i just confused the meaning and racism is strictly for racial discrimination "Racism against women" is called sexism. Yeah, it's the main thing about feminism, but intersectional feminism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality) includes anti-racism too. |
Apr 13, 2018 8:23 AM
#211
zodd0 said: Ya-Shiro said: correct me if i'm wrong but, feminism is fighting against racism against women isn't it? unless i just confused the meaning and racism is strictly for racial discrimination "Racism against women" is called sexism. Yeah, it's the main thing about feminism, but intersectional feminism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality) includes anti-racism too. Not really it’s more about man hating and elevating women over men |
Apr 13, 2018 9:01 AM
#212
ecchiharemgeek said: Not really it’s more about man hating and elevating women over men Source = the butthole of an anti-feminist. |
Apr 13, 2018 9:27 AM
#213
zodd0 said: ecchiharemgeek said: Not really it’s more about man hating and elevating women over men Source = the butthole of an anti-feminist. Spoken like a good mindless white knight feminst |
Apr 13, 2018 9:44 AM
#214
People who aren't anti-intellectual and have sources for their claims = mindless white knight feminist. |
Apr 13, 2018 9:58 PM
#215
Unless we are talking something with historic context I don't see how anyone could identity anything as a feministic concept considering there are so many types of feminism and many are contradictory to the others. |
⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Apr 13, 2018 10:03 PM
#216
You can find a dime a dozen anime series that pass the Bechdel Test (which wasn't even a serious "test" in the first place) just by being CGDCT. At best, it's a trivia point, and it's not really meaningful at all when it comes to anime. Clebardman said: Arguably, the whole "girls are more emotional than boys" thing.@holysauron Madoka gave me slightly misogynistic vibes more than anything else tbh. Not that I remember it well. The whole premise's mechanics felt artificial and strained, IMO. And not because they wanted to be misogynistic, but rather it's just because what they did was what they came up with. traed said: I think a lot of people who try to paint stuff as or as not "feminist" with a broad brush are failing to acknowledge that there's a lot more nuance in that, and feminism is more accurately described as a perspective for understanding/interpreting a work rather than something the work itself is.Unless we are talking something with historic context I don't see how anyone could identity anything as a feministic concept considering there are so many types of feminism and many are contradictory to the others. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 13, 2018 10:07 PM
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Apr 13, 2018 10:18 PM
#217
GlennMagusHarvey said: traed said: I think a lot of people who try to paint stuff as or as not "feminist" with a broad brush are failing to acknowledge that there's a lot more nuance in that, and feminism is more accurately described as a perspective for understanding/interpreting a work rather than something the work itself is.Unless we are talking something with historic context I don't see how anyone could identity anything as a feministic concept considering there are so many types of feminism and many are contradictory to the others. I suppose but still the only thing different versions of Feminism have in common is the belief in a patriarchy that is pretty much everywhere and cause of everything bad for women but not even that because Marxist Feminists don't prescribe to that and instead point out the harms of capitalism. The concept of striving for eqality if sexes isn't in any way unique to Feminism. |
⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Apr 13, 2018 11:46 PM
#218
traed said: Unless we are talking something with historic context I don't see how anyone could identity anything as a feministic concept considering there are so many types of feminism and many are contradictory to the others. Its actually pretty simple, A feminist anime needs to mention mainstream Feminist concepts like 1. Patriarchy theory- Men systematically created institutions and social practices to oppress women for their own exclusive benefit. (Hint: no successful civilization exists that fits this theory) 2. Male leadership is demonized and female leadership is praised. 3. A pathological hatred of men and masculinity. 4. Advocacy for women's benefits not for equality but for superiority. 5. Complete female liberation from men( Male Gaze, financial independence, gender expectations, beauty standards, responsibility). Fan service for a male audience can't ever be feminist because its for the benefit of men, its why the sex positive vs sex negative exists as a concept with Feminist thought. Feminist enjoy the power their sexuality has over men, but others don't like how that can be used to satisfy men for a much lower price especially if the market is flooded with cheaper ways to satisfy male lust through porn, prostitution, hookup culture. If Feminism was strictly about equality and independence why would they care about the male gaze or what women choose to do with her sexuality? Its precisely because feminists hate men and seek control over them. They see an action that could benefit men by using female sexuality as contemptible regardless of said women's agency. Anime is more contemptible because male artists are basically wielding female sexuality for the sole benefit of men watching it. This loss of power even for a brief moment with fiction is what upsets them the most which while seems petty, its pretty common in Feminism thought. |
Apr 14, 2018 2:06 AM
#219
Sorry but I would like to say 1 thing, Not objectifying Women doesn't make it a feminist work. Oh and @15poundfish what you are talking about is Misandry, not feminism, only extreme nutcases do that kind of shit. |
Apr 14, 2018 3:42 AM
#220
Bourmegar said: I never said no fan service makes it a feminist anime. I am saying the reason why feminists hate fan service in anime. Misandry is a big part of Feminism, otherwise they would have no need to invent concepts to demonize men like male gaze, patriarchy, toxic masculinity, mansplaining, manspreading, male privilege, etc. How you reconcile that feminism names all problems with definitions that refer only to aspects of the male gender or something that refers to something negative to women. Sorry but I would like to say 1 thing, Not objectifying Women doesn't make it a feminist work. Oh and @15poundfish what you are talking about is Misandry, not feminism, only extreme nutcases do that kind of shit. Imagine if a White Rights group called Whitism that named all the negative aspects of society based on derogatory terms that refer only to black people. Example could be like the cause of high crime is toxic "nigger culture" from bad black people. Hey, but wait I am not referring to all black people just most of them that exhibit these traits. Its not racist, I totally don't hate black people at all says the Whitism supporter. We just want civil rights equality between races, I don't understand why people are so antagonistic against me. Nobody is falling for it unless they are the most ignorant feminist that lives under a Starbucks cup. Look at the fruits of Feminism and what they actually discuss with each other. The reason why people don't want it in anime is obvious, who wants to be lectured on how evil they are for something they are born. Not even Anime's poor portrayal of women/men can come close to what Feminism thinks of men. If such a movement existed but the genders switched I bet there would be just as much push back against them from the community for trying to censor the medium. |
15poundfishApr 14, 2018 3:46 AM
Apr 14, 2018 4:38 AM
#221
GlennMagusHarvey said: Clebardman said: Arguably, the whole "girls are more emotional than boys" thing.@holysauron Madoka gave me slightly misogynistic vibes more than anything else tbh. Not that I remember it well. The whole premise's mechanics felt artificial and strained, IMO. And not because they wanted to be misogynistic, but rather it's just because what they did was what they came up with. *looks at profile* Wow dude, you really dun like Madoka (^% Yep, I remember it not making much sense. Girls suffer more? They always [spoiler but you get it]? Merely a pretext for having some misery/torture porn with lolis, ew. But honestly, I can be very easily triggered. Almost grabbed my radfem pitchfork after watching Eureka Seven too, for example (^% |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Apr 14, 2018 4:42 AM
#222
15poundfish said: Its actually pretty simple, A feminist anime needs to mention mainstream Feminist concepts like 1. Patriarchy theory- Men systematically created institutions and social practices to oppress women for their own exclusive benefit. (Hint: no successful civilization exists that fits this theory) 2. Male leadership is demonized and female leadership is praised. 3. A pathological hatred of men and masculinity. 4. Advocacy for women's benefits not for equality but for superiority. 5. Complete female liberation from men( Male Gaze, financial independence, gender expectations, beauty standards, responsibility). Do you have any examples of anything at all (movies, TV-series etc.) that fits these criteria that you pulled out of your butthole? |
Apr 14, 2018 4:45 AM
#223
15poundfish said: Bourmegar said: I never said no fan service makes it a feminist anime. I am saying the reason why feminists hate fan service in anime.Sorry but I would like to say 1 thing, Not objectifying Women doesn't make it a feminist work. Oh and @15poundfish what you are talking about is Misandry, not feminism, only extreme nutcases do that kind of shit. But I haven't said a thing about Fanservice. Fanservice is not exactly objectifying Ppl. Robbing them of their anatomy and agency does. So Kill la kill and Keijo for a good examples don't objectify its characters because the characters there have agency and anatomy and are not tools. Misandry is a big part of Feminism, otherwise they would have no need to invent concepts to demonize men like male gaze, patriarchy, toxic masculinity, mansplaining, manspreading, male privilege, etc. How you reconcile that feminism names all problems with definitions that refer only to aspects of the male gender or something that refers to something negative to women. Imagine if a White Rights group called Whitism that named all the negative aspects of society based on derogatory terms that refer only to black people. Example could be like the cause of high crime is toxic "nigger culture" from bad black people. Hey, but wait I am not referring to all black people just most of them that exhibit these traits. Its not racist, I totally don't hate black people at all says the Whitism supporter. We just want civil rights equality between races, I don't understand why people are so antagonistic against me. Nobody is falling for it unless they are the most ignorant feminist that lives under a Starbucks cup. Look at the fruits of Feminism and what they actually discuss with each other. The reason why people don't want it in anime is obvious, who wants to be lectured on how evil they are for something they are born. Not even Anime's poor portrayal of women/men can come close to what Feminism thinks of men. If such a movement existed but the genders switched I bet there would be just as much push back against them from the community for trying to censor the medium. That again differs from person to person. Hell there are even Feminists who are honestly agains female supremacy. There are For example, Feminists who are against Anita like Liana K and the Factual Feminist who actually fight for equality but there also sadly feminists who are misandric lke you said. I rather call these so called Feminists just a bunch of misandric bitching idiots. |
Apr 14, 2018 6:23 AM
#224
Clebardman said: Eureka Seven?GlennMagusHarvey said: Clebardman said: @holysauron Madoka gave me slightly misogynistic vibes more than anything else tbh. Not that I remember it well. The whole premise's mechanics felt artificial and strained, IMO. And not because they wanted to be misogynistic, but rather it's just because what they did was what they came up with. *looks at profile* Wow dude, you really dun like Madoka (^% Yep, I remember it not making much sense. Girls suffer more? They always [spoiler but you get it]? Merely a pretext for having some misery/torture porn with lolis, ew. But honestly, I can be very easily triggered. Almost grabbed my radfem pitchfork after watching Eureka Seven too, for example (^% While I didn't watch that as recently, I don't get at all how Eureka Seven can be read as anti-feminist. IIRC while Renton sorta bumbles through initiating things, both he and Eureka contribute to their relationship, and the other female characters also have major roles to play in both the action and the character development of the cast. Also, ironically, I'm a big fan of Homura Akemi. It's sort of strange. |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Apr 14, 2018 1:13 PM
#225
@GlennMagusHarvey The whole Ep 1> "That girl is a badass roboto ace piloto and she has sum badass two-seater mecha" Ep 2-50> "Well, actually, this is a passenger seat, and she gun take care of the children while MC-kun does macho stuff like war, having buddies, and building ikea furnitures." Granted, I saw it right after Utena, and the whole "knight saves the girls" thing wasn't exactly welcome after that show (^': |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Apr 14, 2018 1:43 PM
#226
zodd0 said: Do you have any examples of anything at all (movies, TV-series etc.) that fits these criteria that you pulled out of your butthole? Some criteria are in western media like the demonizing of men in sitcoms and other female oriented entertainment, however they generally never explore feminism. A Feminist film would be similar to a Christian film, A sermon about the qualities of the ideology. A feminist might push their agenda in a film but they will rarely actually explore deeper feminist concepts in those films. Social engineering needs to be subtle for it to work, if you blatantly made feminist film it would not be very popular. People generally don't like being preached to as an audience unless its preaching to the choir. The Nazi's didn't say kill all the jews at the beginning, it was a social engineering campaign that slowly dehumanized jews until the idea of removal became palatable to Germans. Feminists won't go as far as genocide but their hatred and sexism is mainstream now where before Feminists were more cautious about their PR image. The only people interesting in salvaging Feminist's PR are people in denial or people that felt that Feminism was a noble advocacy group that went the wrong direction. |
Apr 14, 2018 1:53 PM
#227
There have always been feminist anime. In the 60s, there was Ribbon no Kishi. In the 70s, there was The Rose of Versailles. In the 90s, there was Ghost in the Shell and Revolutionary Girl Utena. |
Apr 14, 2018 2:46 PM
#228
Clebardman said: Ehh, I guess I didn't see it that way. Early on it did certainly feel like the relationship was pretty one-sided, with Renton's infatuation with Eureka being largely unrequited. Eureka's contribution to the relationship only really began when @GlennMagusHarvey The whole Ep 1> "That girl is a badass roboto ace piloto and she has sum badass two-seater mecha" Ep 2-50> "Well, actually, this is a passenger seat, and she gun take care of the children while MC-kun does macho stuff like war, having buddies, and building ikea furnitures." Granted, I saw it right after Utena, and the whole "knight saves the girls" thing wasn't exactly welcome after that show (^': Renton up and left In a way the whole show was about relationships, I think. Many of the important characters were paired in some sort of romantic relationship, and each one of them was different, and each one of them arguably acted as a foil to the relationship between the two lead protags. And the females' roles in those relationships seemed generally reasonable? Far as I remember, at least. |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Apr 14, 2018 3:27 PM
#229
15poundfish said: Some criteria are in western media like the demonizing of men in sitcoms and other female oriented entertainment, however they generally never explore feminism. A Feminist film would be similar to a Christian film, A sermon about the qualities of the ideology. A feminist might push their agenda in a film but they will rarely actually explore deeper feminist concepts in those films. Social engineering needs to be subtle for it to work, if you blatantly made feminist film it would not be very popular. People generally don't like being preached to as an audience unless its preaching to the choir. The Nazi's didn't say kill all the jews at the beginning, it was a social engineering campaign that slowly dehumanized jews until the idea of removal became palatable to Germans. Feminists won't go as far as genocide but their hatred and sexism is mainstream now where before Feminists were more cautious about their PR image. The only people interesting in salvaging Feminist's PR are people in denial or people that felt that Feminism was a noble advocacy group that went the wrong direction. In other words; you can't actually give an example because obviously nothing fits the criteria you pulled out of your anus and you hope this mindless babbling will save you instead. Truth is, just having a feminist theme is usually enough for a film to be considered feminist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feminist_films Having feminist messages and narratives will strongly help as well. |
Zoldra0Apr 14, 2018 3:31 PM
Apr 14, 2018 3:46 PM
#230
One of the earliest (1973) attempts at this ideology in the anime medium would be Kanashimi no Belladonna, though the erotic psychedelic scenes stand out more than the implied concepts of female liberation , it certainly focuses more on the avant-gardism during the second half of the movie. |
Apr 14, 2018 5:35 PM
#231
zodd0 said: Basic Instinct for starters is not a feminist film. one could argue the opposite quite easily, its a female archetype in stories as old as the bible. It never admonishes men in the film whatsoever, it was a movie with an obvious twist that got a lot of coverage at the time because of the female nudity of an actress (So Feminist).In other words; you can't actually give an example because obviously nothing fits the criteria you pulled out of your anus and you hope this mindless babbling will save you instead. Truth is, just having a feminist theme is usually enough for a film to be considered feminist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feminist_films Having feminist messages and narratives will strongly help as well. |
Apr 15, 2018 11:07 AM
#232
actually the most "feminist" i find anime can be is ironically the anime with little girls, like precure. i admire how girly and feminine they are but can always kick butt, man or woman, without it being cancer. the title is awfully misleading though, OP , because there are barely any instances of actual feminism in anime. |
Apr 15, 2018 11:07 AM
#233
Energetic-Nova said: Probably Japan as a nation themselves. They are kinda behind on womens rights in respect to well... the over 100 nations considered doing better for women right now. Do women have less right in Japan? It just says Japan just lagging in gender equality. Japan is very sexist society as in stronger gender role remain in society and overall women have it better when it comes to gender role judging from statistics.Almost all statistics available(literally all statistics I could find) says Women in Japan are happier/more satisfied in life than Men in Japan by a large margin, in fact one of the largest in the world in every statistics I could find ,which shows how much gender roles in modern Japanese society is working in favor of women. 1 46% of women in Japan rated their life satisfaction on the highest rung of the ladder compared with 31% of men in Japan survey by Pew research center in 2003. Women's life satisfaction - Men's life satisfaction in Japan is the second highest only after Pakistan which is one of the countries men literally have to go to war and have high chances of getting killed and have extremely low happiness ratio. http://www.pewglobal.org/2003/10/29/global-gender-gaps/ 2 In 2015 PISA's students' life survey, Japan is one of the only two countries that female students are more satisfied with their life than male students.Another statistics that show gender role in Japan often means tougher/ dirtier role for boys even in the earlier stage of life. https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/pisa-2015-results-volume-iii/gender-differences-in-life-satisfaction_9789264273856-graph7-en#page1 3 In World value surveys report, women in Japan who rated they were either very happy or relatively happy were 90.4% in 2010 compared with 82.2% of men rated in the same manner which makes 8.2 % difference and this is the highest number in the world. In about half the countries surveyed women were less happy than men. http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/honkawa/2472.html http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/honkawa/9484.html 4 Many women in Japan fantasize traditional gender role(being housewife) because housewives are literally the happiest demographic save for the elderly and students. Keep in mind housewife in Japan is not a submissive role looked down upon by society in Japan, husbands give up the whole paycheck and given "allowance". This is subjective happiness by employment status in Japan in the JGSS. The ratio of people who answered they are currently very happy(rated 5/5) 43.8% Female pensioner 43.6% House wife 40.8% Female business owner 32.4% Male business owner 30.7% Male regular worker 26.8% Female non regular worker 25.8% Female regular worker 25.6% Male pensioner 21.0% House husbands 19.0% Male non regular worker 15.7% Female job seeker 11.4% Male job seeker http://www.gender.go.jp/about_danjo/whitepaper/h26/zentai/html/zuhyo/zuhyo01-00-28.html |
umashikanekoApr 17, 2018 4:18 AM
Apr 17, 2018 3:06 AM
#234
@Ardanaz It's hard not to believe in double standards in moderation when I look at this thread, tbh. Reported it twice in two weeks, got no answer, apparently a mod or the author discreetly deleted some previous posts to make it look less cringe (post #6 at least was the same spam and got deleted), but there's still one user baiting and spamming on purpose, and nothing is done because "lol he made a joke about feminists" I'd really like to think better of this place, but heh. The rules are clearly not the same depending on who you're "baiting", or who moderates you. |
DeathkoApr 17, 2018 3:13 AM
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Apr 17, 2018 3:23 AM
#235
Clebardman said: @Ardanaz It's hard not to believe in double standards in moderation when I look at this thread, tbh. Reported it twice in two weeks, got no answer, apparently a mod or the author discreetly deleted some previous posts to make it look less cringe (post #6 at least was the same spam and got deleted), but there's still one user baiting and spamming on purpose, and nothing is done because "lol he made a joke about feminists" I'd really like to think better of this place, but heh. The rules are clearly not the same depending on who you're "baiting", or who moderates you. I didn't delete shit. Don't even know how to tbh. I wish the reporting did something though because even if I try ignoring him he's annoying as hell. |
Apr 17, 2018 3:27 AM
#236
@holysauron was talking about the author of said spam, dw. Mostly put it here because I had a long-ass private discussion with Ardanaz after getting banned for a joke that a mod interpreted as an insult toward lolilovers, and apparently there is no double standard here, all the feminists left on their own and CE is invaded by cringe antisemitic conspiratists by accident. I'm willing to listen when someone talks to me, but facts tend to prove me right here. Might as well have that discussion in public now, I'm tired of this shit. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Apr 17, 2018 3:54 AM
#237
Clebardman said: @holysauron was talking about the author of said spam, dw. Mostly put it here because I had a long-ass private discussion with Ardanaz after getting banned for a joke that a mod interpreted as an insult toward lolilovers, and apparently there is no double standard here, all the feminists left on their own and CE is invaded by cringe antisemitic conspiratists by accident. I'm willing to listen when someone talks to me, but facts tend to prove me right here. Might as well have that discussion in public now, I'm tired of this shit. And here I was looking for Ardanaz's post. I get what you're saying though because even when I expected some toxicity I would've never imagined the levels found here. That's MAL for ya I guess. |
Apr 20, 2018 1:44 PM
#238
you are right !!! they should execute feminists in anime !!! |
Apr 20, 2018 2:29 PM
#239
holysauron said: I know this thread will probably derail just like the other feminism threads but I want to see how this goes anyway. Like every other medium in the world anime has its fair share of feminist works. True, they are fewer than what you'll find in the West because Japan doesn't really care for the subject but those anime that do exist are here to stay. But what does MAL think about those? How are these feminist themes handled? Edit: I know lots of feminist works already so you don't need to list them. What I asked about was a general consensus on what you guys think about them. Do you mean execution in terms of how it is achieved or how it is being killed? Execution is a rather, erm, fluid (?) word to use. I mean, what type of feminism are you even referring to? First, second, third etc.? I mean one can read Mulvey into any type of anime. Kill la Kill is my own preference. Then again, I find the term 'feminism' quite counter-productive. Why split traits? Once your remove the gendered gaze, the act of watching remain unchanged etc. I suspect; however, it is the Dworkin inspired feminism that is inspiring you. Which does beg the question, what type of feminism you mean? I mean there are so many definitions and digressions of what constitutes feminism (many contradictory). It kind makes for a baffling way of categorising anime. Is Itazura na Kiss incredibly sexist or revealing? I tend to lean towards to former but have been told otherwise. I mean it's all well and good saying something is a toxic subject and create a discussion based on innuendo and knowhow. But I digress, I guess my question is...what do you *actually* mean by "'execution of feminism..." ? What makes an anime feminist? What are the criteria? And why is it important? Etc. etc. |
Apr 20, 2018 4:43 PM
#240
Kill la Kill definitely espoused sex positivity which, depending on who you ask, may or may not be a feminist principle. And I personally reckon it tacked the subject exceptionally through its use of visual metaphors and allusions. Also loved Revolutionary Girl Utena, which subverts patriarchal fairy tale tropes and Nana, which highlights the effects emotional abuse and exploitation have on women. |
Take care of yourself |
Apr 20, 2018 5:49 PM
#241
ThatRazorGuy said: Kill la Kill definitely espoused sex positivity which, depending on who you ask, may or may not be a feminist principle. And I personally reckon it tacked the subject exceptionally through its use of visual metaphors and allusions. Also loved Revolutionary Girl Utena, which subverts patriarchal fairy tale tropes and Nana, which highlights the effects emotional abuse and exploitation have on women. Though I agree with your characterisations, I really want to know what is gained by terming these anime as 'feminist', rather than, well, as you just described them? I am not trying to be flippant I genuinely wish to know the added value the term 'feminism' has when understanding anime (or any medium for that matter). I mean, I have never watched Utena, but the way you broke it down as subverting 'patriarchal fairy tale tropes', albeit a phrase that flirts if not espouses ideals found in some feminist ideologies, it, at the same time, just stands on its own as a powerful expression without any adage. |
Apr 21, 2018 12:56 AM
#242
Jaarin said: ThatRazorGuy said: Kill la Kill definitely espoused sex positivity which, depending on who you ask, may or may not be a feminist principle. And I personally reckon it tacked the subject exceptionally through its use of visual metaphors and allusions. Also loved Revolutionary Girl Utena, which subverts patriarchal fairy tale tropes and Nana, which highlights the effects emotional abuse and exploitation have on women. Though I agree with your characterisations, I really want to know what is gained by terming these anime as 'feminist', rather than, well, as you just described them? I am not trying to be flippant I genuinely wish to know the added value the term 'feminism' has when understanding anime (or any medium for that matter). I mean, I have never watched Utena, but the way you broke it down as subverting 'patriarchal fairy tale tropes', albeit a phrase that flirts if not espouses ideals found in some feminist ideologies, it, at the same time, just stands on its own as a powerful expression without any adage. Well it doesn't make a show better to be honest. It is actually more about making it seem more attractive to certain groups to watch it. so Terming a show feminist doesn't change a show at all. |
Apr 21, 2018 3:46 AM
#243
Jaarin said: ThatRazorGuy said: Kill la Kill definitely espoused sex positivity which, depending on who you ask, may or may not be a feminist principle. And I personally reckon it tacked the subject exceptionally through its use of visual metaphors and allusions. Also loved Revolutionary Girl Utena, which subverts patriarchal fairy tale tropes and Nana, which highlights the effects emotional abuse and exploitation have on women. Though I agree with your characterisations, I really want to know what is gained by terming these anime as 'feminist', rather than, well, as you just described them? I am not trying to be flippant I genuinely wish to know the added value the term 'feminism' has when understanding anime (or any medium for that matter). I mean, I have never watched Utena, but the way you broke it down as subverting 'patriarchal fairy tale tropes', albeit a phrase that flirts if not espouses ideals found in some feminist ideologies, it, at the same time, just stands on its own as a powerful expression without any adage. The term "feminist" is merely a brief descriptor of the themes the show entails since said themes do tie in to a lot of feminist rhetoric. It doesn't imbue the work with some sort of higher status as there's feminist media out there which is flat out terrible. |
Take care of yourself |
Apr 21, 2018 3:53 PM
#244
I havent seen any anime I would describe as feminist. In general however, all anime would benefit by incorporating some bare minimum feminism like -no stupid fanservice -no -dere fetish cardoboard type girls -no stupid "woman hits man funny" idiocy -less harem -less protagonists going "ima protect you cause im a guy and your a girl so your weak". |
Apr 21, 2018 6:20 PM
#245
james501 said: I havent seen any anime I would describe as feminist. In general however, all anime would benefit by incorporating some bare minimum feminism like -no stupid fanservice -no -dere fetish cardoboard type girls -no stupid "woman hits man funny" idiocy -less harem -less protagonists going "ima protect you cause im a guy and your a girl so your weak". yeah, apparently to everyone here believes if an anime has a woman as the MC it's "feminism". they have yet to actually give a single anime that explicitly represents feminism. |
Apr 21, 2018 6:24 PM
#246
i dont think ive ever seen a "feminist" anime... then again i dunno what do people mean by that |
Apr 22, 2018 4:54 AM
#247
james501 said: I havent seen any anime I would describe as feminist. In general however, all anime would benefit by incorporating some bare minimum feminism like -no stupid fanservice -no -dere fetish cardoboard type girls -no stupid "woman hits man funny" idiocy -less harem -less protagonists going "ima protect you cause im a guy and your a girl so your weak". If you consider that "bare minimum feminism", is mainstream shounen and harem anime all you've watched? You need to widen your horizons a bit... |
Apr 22, 2018 7:27 AM
#248
zodd0 said: james501 said: I havent seen any anime I would describe as feminist. In general however, all anime would benefit by incorporating some bare minimum feminism like -no stupid fanservice -no -dere fetish cardoboard type girls -no stupid "woman hits man funny" idiocy -less harem -less protagonists going "ima protect you cause im a guy and your a girl so your weak". If you consider that "bare minimum feminism", is mainstream shounen and harem anime all you've watched? You need to widen your horizons a bit... No, not really. There are plenty of anime that dont eature those and are much better written. But there are still other series that haev those elements and could have been muc better they ditched them I have seen works that had the potential to beintersting (not masterpieces byt fun time) and just shoot themselves in the foot. I mean, let's take Naruto a very mainstream example. One of the biggest criticisms is against Sakura and how she is a complete bitch to Naruto (see no.3). Or how Hinata is such a doormat.(no.2) Kishi himself said he didnt know to write female characters. With a bit more careful consideration those 2 could have been at least tolerable. |
Apr 22, 2018 7:40 AM
#249
zodd0 said: KazuroWeisemann said: Anime is generally catered to the japanese audience so unless their own tastes change , You are not going to find many anime with feminist themes , better go back to Hollywood .. What feminist themes does Hollywood have that anime does not? Haven't you noticed for example how the majority of Studio Ghibli MC's are female while nearly every MC of Pixar films is male? Holywood in general doesnt sexualise little girls, doesnt indulge in harem fantasies ( and when they are shown the guys getting fawned over usually are worth it), etc. That is a good start for now. |
Apr 22, 2018 9:01 AM
#250
james501 said: Holywood in general doesnt sexualise little girls, doesnt indulge in harem fantasies ( and when they are shown the guys getting fawned over usually are worth it), etc. That is a good start for now. That was no answer to my question. "Not anti-feminism/sexism" does not equal feminism. Hollywood is very lackluster in some aspects compared to anime, just face it. |
This topic has been locked and is no longer available for discussion.
More topics from this board
» ⌛ Best Girls of the Past Eras >Increased Limit ( 1 2 3 )Shizuna - Oct 10 |
129 |
by wujack
»»
30 minutes ago |
|
» The "Backstory" Problemsimonitro - 9 hours ago |
25 |
by ryzxgum
»»
34 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Do OPs and EDs contribute to your rating of an anime?W3TFT - Yesterday |
23 |
by W3TFT
»»
46 minutes ago |
|
» What's the name for this concept?thewiru - 7 hours ago |
14 |
by Lucifrost
»»
49 minutes ago |
|
» What are your Anime Nitpicks?StarBloom_64 - 7 hours ago |
10 |
by Lucifrost
»»
1 hour ago |