| Hi, I'm DaCraziGuy-sensei and I'm going to teach you to be a rational being. First, my opinion, old anime is as good as new one. Simple as that. I like both and I think anyone should think like that, accepting the new while remembering the old acknowledging the good and the bad. Despite being something simple it's something I usually don't see. Second, what triggered this rant were a couple of things, but basically it was that while I was watching "Lupin III" I though to myself "well, this is pretty well animated despite how old it is" and after that I watched the last episode of "Gotoubon no hanoyome"(show that I actually enjoy) and I said "well, this is pretty badly animated and the art was inconsistent af in this episode". A couple of other things happened but, who cares? If you are one of those that think that animation is not like it used to be, well, you are correct but that doesn't mean it's worse. Just check anything made by Bones and it's done. But if you think that old anime looks bad, here are some stuff that I hope it would change your mind: Super old 70's: Mostly 80's: A mix: Some cool shit: These are only a small part of good old stuff, but I think this is enough to make a point. Also I want to add a small thing, art is different than animation. Art is how it looks and animation how it "moves" basically. Lot of people seem to don't know that. So, what do you think of old anime and new anime? What we gained and what we lost? Class, dismiss. |
DaCraziGuyFeb 17, 2019 10:35 AM
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| I love the old animation, it's so well drawn and just looks amazing. But I do have a problem with alot of them, the comedy... Patlabor is a serie I woud love to watch, but I can't handle the first 5 minutes into the serie. The comedy is super childish and for me it destroys the show. If the older animes were more serious as ROV 75% of my favorites woud be animes from the 80-90~ Well, maybe will come a time when I can start to enjoy the old typ of comedy. But things like Ghost in the Shell looks amazing. Just looking at how well made it is makes me drool |
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| I agree with you OP that both older and newer anime are good. There are shining stars from every era and those who limit themselves are doing them self a disservice. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| how do you quantify good anyway there are things that can be known to be true and things that are the personal preferences of individuals |
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| Can't be objective about this, but yeah I agree. I feel like we shouldn't give some series a pass just because they're older. For example, Ranma 1/2 and that annoying old man. He was god damn obnoxious and annoying and the worst character I've ever seen, and he shouldn't get a pass just because Ranma 1/2 is considered an old anime. The opposite is also true, just because an anime is up-to-date and has shiny visuals, doesn't automatically mean it has more worth than an older anime. An anime's age does not invalidate it's worth, or the criticisms it deserves. Old stories can be both good and bad, just like newer shows can be good or bad. How long it's been since it has aired shouldn't really be as big of a factor as everyone makes it. It's fine to still have it alter your opinion of a show, but only to a certain degree. A show's rating should not be completely reliant on the tagline of "it was good for it's time". Many old shows are still good, we shouldn't give the ones that aged poorly a pass. That kinda become somewhat of a tangent, to be more concise, new shows and old shows should be rated equally on the quality of their story and characters. I feel like it's both wrong to discredit a show because it's old, but it's also bad to just think a show is automatically better than newer shows just because it's a few decades old. |
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EndlessMaria said: I agree with you OP that both older and newer anime are good. There are shining stars from every era and those who limit themselves are doing them self a disservice. Yeah, it's a shame to limit yourself like that. Nillwas said: I love the old animation, it's so well drawn and just looks amazing. But I do have a problem with alot of them, the comedy... Patlabor is a serie I woud love to watch, but I can't handle the first 5 minutes into the serie. The comedy is super childish and for me it destroys the show. If the older animes were more serious as ROV 75% of my favorites woud be animes from the 80-90~ Well, maybe will come a time when I can start to enjoy the old typ of comedy. But things like Ghost in the Shell looks amazing. Just looking at how well made it is makes me drool You are not the only one that think like that, shows like DenYuuDen or Golden Kamuy have the same issues. Despite being new (DenYuuDen not that new) they are serious show with a lot of comedy and some people don't like the constants tone's shift. Skana said: Old anime are always better. Nowadays we see fucking ecchi/harems/isekai trash for each fucking season. We gained nothing. We lost everything. Note: I haven't read the topic at all. I just went straight to the main questions lol We still have good shows, mob, boogiepop, jojo and Dororo are hope. LOL. |
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| Wow in the first video the first anime I ever watched - Nagagutsu o Haita Neko. Nillwas said: Patlabor is a serie I woud love to watch, but I can't handle the first 5 minutes into the serie. The comedy is super childish Watch the movies then - they get darker and darker. Even episodes 5-6 of the OVA are not that light. |
alshuFeb 15, 2019 5:40 PM
| I believe the reason people think that old anime is better is because they refer only to a few dozen anime, instead of the industry as a whole. If you scavenge enough, there was just as much bad anime in the past as there is nowadays. It's the same case with Hollywood. People say movies nowadays are bad, but only because they look at a handful of talented directors from the past that made it big with high budget movies. By doing that, they ignore all those bad action movies that swarmed the 70s and 80s (and especially the 90s) and were undoubtedly the majority in those times. The industry plays safer nowadays, sure, since there's way too much money involved to experiment like in the past, but that doesn't mean there are no good movies nowadays. People are just lazy to look for them. And it's the same with anime. If someone thinks there are no good anime nowadays, maybe they should reflect a bit if the problem really is the industry or themselves. |
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| So where's the objective statements that they are equal or not equal. You said "in my opinion"... that doesn't start like an objective view. |
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OnionKnightRises said: Can't be objective about this, but yeah I agree. I feel like we shouldn't give some series a pass just because they're older. For example, Ranma 1/2 and that annoying old man. He was god damn obnoxious and annoying and the worst character I've ever seen, and he shouldn't get a pass just because Ranma 1/2 is considered an old anime. The opposite is also true, just because an anime is up-to-date and has shiny visuals, doesn't automatically mean it has more worth than an older anime. An anime's age does not invalidate it's worth, or the criticisms it deserves. Old stories can be both good and bad, just like newer shows can be good or bad. How long it's been since it has aired shouldn't really be as big of a factor as everyone makes it. It's fine to still have it alter your opinion of a show, but only to a certain degree. A show's rating should not be completely reliant on the tagline of "it was good for it's time". Many old shows are still good, we shouldn't give the ones that aged poorly a pass. That kinda become somewhat of a tangent, to be more concise, new shows and old shows should be rated equally on the quality of their story and characters. I feel like it's both wrong to discredit a show because it's old, but it's also bad to just think a show is automatically better than newer shows just because it's a few decades old. You got it right. Thinking by yourself despite you biases should be natural. romagia said: how do you quantify good anyway there are things that can be known to be true and things that are the personal preferences of individuals You don't need to quantify anything, you just need to enjoy. The point of this is, having an open mind always is the best. More knowledge = more insight. You can choose better and you can find easier new things. That is why most people that "got tired of anime" or "watched all" are mostly people that watched around 150 shows, and all of them are from the same genre. |
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| There are good anime and bad anime from every generation. Simple as that. Let’s judge anime base on their own individual merit and case by case basis not generalise the generations. In addition let people have freedom watch what they want to watch, don’t be a dictator telling other what to watch and also don’t resort to name calling like self praise yourself open minded for watching old anime implying people who don’t watch old anime are less open minded because that just makes you an elitist. If people choose not to watch old anime then so be it and vice versa. Nothing wrong if they choose not to watch old anime and vice versa. |
Papa_ScorchFeb 15, 2019 6:34 PM
iasuru said: So where's the objective statements that they are equal or not equal. You said "in my opinion"... that doesn't start like an objective view. My opinion is objective, but still is an opinion. I don't have the absolute truth, maybe new is better than old but you still may find something old that you may enjoy. The point of the thread is to make at least a couple of people to reflect about what they think, and if they try something new because of that even better. |
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Skana said: Old anime are always better. Nowadays we see fucking ecchi/harems/isekai trash for each fucking season. We gained nothing. We lost everything. Note: I haven't read the topic at all. I just went straight to the main questions lol This is the absolute truth and nothing on this topic will get remotely close to this brilliant answer. (Fucking Shield garbage men) The second absolute truth would be that "If you have a girl in your signature/avatar your opinion doesnt matter" |
| I never lie on the internet. What's the point of it... the chinese noodles ad is an anime and avatar isn't! triggered Check out my taste and my profile. |
Gorochu said: Yup, basically being objective (as least as far as a human can be).There are good anime and bad anime from every generation. Simple as that. Let’s judge anime base on their own individual merit and case by case basis not generalise the generations. alshu said: Actually I found these videos by luck, I'm going to check some of them sometimes. I haven't watched almost anything from the 70's, so you have my respect sempai hahahWow in the first video the first anime I ever watched - Nagagutsu o Haita Neko. |
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CordobezEverdeen said: Skana said: Old anime are always better. Nowadays we see fucking ecchi/harems/isekai trash for each fucking season. We gained nothing. We lost everything. Note: I haven't read the topic at all. I just went straight to the main questions lol This is the absolute truth and nothing on this topic will get remotely close to this brilliant answer. (Fucking Shield garbage men) The second absolute truth would be that "If you have a girl in your signature/avatar your opinion doesnt matter" I don’t agree with your/skanas first point, there’s great anime in every generation, but I totally agree with the second point LMAO. I’ll give females the exception to the rule cause that’s not so weird, but I can’t take dudes seriously if they take Waifus seriously XD |
| Lolicons are scum. BABYMETAL is more metal than Metallica. Naruto is objectively the best anime ever. HxH 99' is decent. HxH 11' is bad. |
| There's no such thing as objectivity in relation to any form of media. That could be art, film, music, anime, cartoons, etc. Discerning good from bad is solely within the eyes of the spectator, and just because an overwhelming majority agree that a series is either good or bad doesn't make it objectively good or bad. There's no black and white with this kind of thing. In regards to story alone, I agree that the age of a work should in no way factor into whether or not someone enjoys it. In terms of aesthetic, everyone will have their individual preferences, and some may not indulge in older shows for that very reason. I can't judge anyone for this, as that's their subjective opinion. However, the sheer lack of exposure to older series/films (for perhaps the reason of visual aesthetics) is not grounds for such an opinion, as I feel everyone should at least give something a shot before coming to a conclusion. |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
DaCraziGuy said: so you have my respect sempai hahah Well this was around 1978-9 and I was 5. Gorochu said: In addition let people have freedom watch what they want to watch, don’t be a dictator telling other what to watch Somebody here is making someone to watch only old and skip new anime? Aren't we all following seasonals too? Even those who say that old is always better (which theoretical and practically is wrong) can't really force that. You sound like misguided SJW or something. |
DaCraziGuy said: iasuru said: So where's the objective statements that they are equal or not equal. You said "in my opinion"... that doesn't start like an objective view. My opinion is objective, but still is an opinion. I don't have the absolute truth, maybe new is better than old but you still may find something old that you may enjoy. The point of the thread is to make at least a couple of people to reflect about what they think, and if they try something new because of that even better. sub·jec·tiveDictionary result for subjective /səbˈjektiv/Submit adjective 1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Source: google dictionary. |
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iasuru said: DaCraziGuy said: My opinion is objective, but still is an opinion. I don't have the absolute truth, maybe new is better than old but you still may find something old that you may enjoy. The point of the thread is to make at least a couple of people to reflect about what they think, and if they try something new because of that even better. sub·jec·tiveDictionary result for subjective /səbˈjektiv/Submit adjective 1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Source: google dictionary. Your point?? I already said that my point isn't being the unbiased god and I acknowledged that old and new may not be equals, that is why I said my opinion. Taking your time and checking both sides of the coin is an objective action, but there is no human that is 100% objective. Do I really need to explain the nature of the humans and the difference between Black, gray and white? Do you know how to read? Or you are just trolling me? |
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alshu said: DaCraziGuy said: so you have my respect sempai hahah Well this was around 1978-9 and I was 5. Gorochu said: In addition let people have freedom watch what they want to watch, don’t be a dictator telling other what to watch Somebody here is making someone to watch only old and skip new anime? Aren't we all following seasonals too? Even those who say that old is always better (which theoretical and practically is wrong) can't really force that. You sound like misguided SJW or something. No. If people choose not to watch old anime then so be it and vice versa. Nothing wrong if they choose not to watch old anime and vice versa. |
Maneki-Mew said: Satyr_icon said: I believe the reason people think that old anime is better is because they refer only to a few dozen anime, instead of the industry as a whole. If you scavenge enough, there was just as much bad anime in the past as there is nowadays. It's the same case with Hollywood. People say movies nowadays are bad, but only because they look at a handful of talented directors from the past that made it big with high budget movies. By doing that, they ignore all those bad action movies that swarmed the 70s and 80s (and especially the 90s) and were undoubtedly the majority in those times. The industry plays safer nowadays, sure, since there's way too much money involved to experiment like in the past, but that doesn't mean there are no good movies nowadays. People are just lazy to look for them. And it's the same with anime. If someone thinks there are no good anime nowadays, maybe they should reflect a bit if the problem really is the industry or themselves. Definitely. These action movies and their dumb lines / one-liners are so over the top and comedic. People only remind the best or the most popular or iconic movies from their time, not every single one that every existed. It's the same with anime. Yes, that is true. That is why I disagree with anyone that thinks that one is better than the other. And I touched the animation because it's one of the most common complains. Cheesy and corny lines are everywhere tho hahaha |
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| Well many people already said it but I'm just gonna repeat it myself "Art doesn't change, people do" |
DaCraziGuy said: iasuru said: sub·jec·tiveDictionary result for subjective /səbˈjektiv/Submit adjective 1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Source: google dictionary. Your point?? I already said that my point isn't being the unbiased god and I acknowledged that old and new may not be equals, that is why I said my opinion. Taking your time and checking both sides of the coin is an objective action, but there is no human that is 100% objective. Do I really need to explain the nature of the humans and the difference between Black, gray and white? Do you know how to read? Or you are just trolling me? Your title says "being objective", but there is nothing objective about the body of the title. That's the problem. |
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I can't believe people look at the most basic, neutral stance and want to fight about it. To those really getting heated about old anime vs new anime: |
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| Being objective about anime, neither old nor new anime is better than the other. They're just different art styles and different genre prevalences. And different people have different preferences. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
iasuru said: DaCraziGuy said: Your point?? I already said that my point isn't being the unbiased god and I acknowledged that old and new may not be equals, that is why I said my opinion. Taking your time and checking both sides of the coin is an objective action, but there is no human that is 100% objective. Do I really need to explain the nature of the humans and the difference between Black, gray and white? Do you know how to read? Or you are just trolling me? Your title says "being objective", but there is nothing objective about the body of the title. That's the problem. I mean dude, I explained on the details, I told you 2 times the objective of the thread, you are the only one that didn't got it and you still insist. Jeez, you are a piece of art. GlennMagusHarvey said: Being objective about anime, neither old nor new anime is better than the other. They're just different art styles and different genre prevalences. And different people have different preferences. Yes, that is true. Gorochu said: alshu said: Well this was around 1978-9 and I was 5. Somebody here is making someone to watch only old and skip new anime? Aren't we all following seasonals too? Even those who say that old is always better (which theoretical and practically is wrong) can't really force that. You sound like misguided SJW or something. No. If people choose not to watch old anime then so be it and vice versa. Nothing wrong if they choose not to watch old anime and vice versa. Why do you want to close your mind to different things and refusing to try other stuff? Refusing to try new things because of some preconception it's pretty bad actually. Knowing the history of something and being able to take steps into the new is what made humans improve in a lot of ways. That mentality is the one that triggered the dark age, lol. Refusing science and forgetting history was a huge deal and what you are saying is basically that. |
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DaCraziGuy said: iasuru said: Your title says "being objective", but there is nothing objective about the body of the title. That's the problem. I mean dude, I explained on the details, I told you 2 times the objective of the thread, you are the only one that didn't got it and you still insist. Jeez, you are a piece of art. GlennMagusHarvey said: Being objective about anime, neither old nor new anime is better than the other. They're just different art styles and different genre prevalences. And different people have different preferences. Yes, that is true. Gorochu said: No. If people choose not to watch old anime then so be it and vice versa. Nothing wrong if they choose not to watch old anime and vice versa. Why do you want to close your mind to different things and refusing to try other stuff? Refusing to try new things because of some preconception it's pretty bad actually. Knowing the history of something and being able to take steps into the new is what made humans improve in a lot of ways. That mentality is the one that triggered the dark age, lol. Refusing science and forgetting history was a huge deal and what you are saying is basically that. If you are referring to me personally I did try them. 2 old anime I watch recently are original Macross and Record of Lodoss War. Drop both of them. It has nothing to do with being open or mentality, it’s a matter of what is more entertaining for me. I do like some old anime movies like Perfect Blue and Mononoke Hime. Anime is entertainment medium, not science or history. Watching anime or type of anime you watch don’t improve you in anyway. Don’t worry I’m an engineering graduate, no way I’m rejecting science. Lol! Rejecting old anime and rejecting science are totally not the same thing dude. Lol! |
Papa_ScorchFeb 15, 2019 10:26 PM
Gorochu said: No, it's not the same at all, but clearly our tastes or customs say a lot about our personality and the logic behind. DaCraziGuy said: I mean dude, I explained on the details, I told you 2 times the objective of the thread, you are the only one that didn't got it and you still insist. Jeez, you are a piece of art. Yes, that is true. Why do you want to close your mind to different things and refusing to try other stuff? Refusing to try new things because of some preconception it's pretty bad actually. Knowing the history of something and being able to take steps into the new is what made humans improve in a lot of ways. That mentality is the one that triggered the dark age, lol. Refusing science and forgetting history was a huge deal and what you are saying is basically that. If you are referring to me personally I did try them. 2 old anime I watch recently are original Macross and Record of Lodoss War. Drop both of them. It has nothing to do with being open or mentality, it’s a matter of what is more entertaining for me. I do like some old anime movies like Perfect Blue and Mononoke Hime. Anime is entertainment medium, not science or history. Watching anime or type of anime you watch don’t improve you in anyway. Don’t worry I’m an engineering graduate, no way I’m rejecting science. Lol! Rejecting old anime and rejecting science are totally not the same thing dude. Lol! |
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DaCraziGuy said: Gorochu said: No, it's not the same at all, but clearly our tastes or customs say a lot about our personality and the logic behind. If you are referring to me personally I did try them. 2 old anime I watch recently are original Macross and Record of Lodoss War. Drop both of them. It has nothing to do with being open or mentality, it’s a matter of what is more entertaining for me. I do like some old anime movies like Perfect Blue and Mononoke Hime. Anime is entertainment medium, not science or history. Watching anime or type of anime you watch don’t improve you in anyway. Don’t worry I’m an engineering graduate, no way I’m rejecting science. Lol! Rejecting old anime and rejecting science are totally not the same thing dude. Lol! Yeah obviously science and history are not same as anime. Taste in anime says a lot about our personality? Then in that case, that would mean those who like Kakegurui and Your Name are smart people since smart rocket science genius like Elon Musk like Your Name and Kakegurui. Plus, both Kakegurui and Your Name are modern anime, this would mean modern anime viewers are smarter than old anime viewers as Elon Musk's tastes is a living proof of that. That is of course implying that taste in anime indicate anything about you as human. On a side note, we are getting plenty of threads talking about old anime recently. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1766153&show=0 https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1764304&show= https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1766590 Including this, that make it 4 in first 2 months of 2019 alone. Although you probably already know this, making this many threads by people trying to promote old anime won't change the viewing habit of anime fans in general. Reason for this is because most anime fans watch anime for their own entertainment, they don't care about forums/discussions. https://myanimelist.net/forum/ On the bottom right, it stated MAL have 5.7 million users but only a few hundreds browsing the forum. This would mean less than 1% of MAL users here checking the forum and not all those hundred of users who browse this forum will go check AD. Thread like this goes unread by most anime fans. If you guys really want to promote people watching old anime, then you really need to think outside the box and use different method to promote old anime. While I don't like some old anime fans with their elitist behavior(keep in mind I said some not all) , sometimes, I kinda feel sorry for old anime fans, knowing their effort will just be futile. Instead of promoting old anime, old anime fans ended up giving bad name to old anime, making modern anime fans distance themselves from old anime and think people who watch old anime are lame. |
Papa_ScorchFeb 16, 2019 6:49 AM
Skana said: Old anime are always better. Nowadays we see fucking ecchi/harems/isekai trash for each fucking season. We gained nothing. We lost everything. Note: I haven't read the topic at all. I just went straight to the main questions lol Maybe I'm missing something but I haven't really noticed that many ecchi series coming out recently. |
| Well...objectively, you're wrong. Animation quality is just as important in anime as any other criteria, such as plot, character development, and whatnot. Objectively speaking, old anime just doesn't hold a candle to what we are producing nowadays. Sure, you give an example of Gotoubon no Hanoyome being badly animated and inconsistent, but if you were to show a scene from that anime that to someone who have never watched anime before and another scene from the 70's, you really think the old animation would have more appeal? imo, I don't like old anime. Even if they are what you call "well animated", I simply can't bring myself to sit through their old style. But I'm not saying all old anime are bad. In fact, the good "old" anime are just that much better because their plot have to be so above and beyond to makeup for its subpar animation. But then it brings up the point that old is simply not "as good as new" because if they are both mediocre anime, then people are most likely going to pick the more modern one. The problem here is your use of the term "objective". In your opinion, sure, but objectively, technology has simply advanced too much for them to be on equal ground. There will always be some well animated and some poorly animated, but on average, the difference between modern and old is too big to call them equal |
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS. |
NbQuil said: Well...objectively, you're wrong. Animation quality is just as important in anime as any other criteria, such as plot, character development, and whatnot. Objectively speaking, old anime just doesn't hold a candle to what we are producing nowadays. Sure, you give an example of Gotoubon no Hanoyome being badly animated and inconsistent, but if you were to show a scene from that anime that to someone who have never watched anime before and another scene from the 70's, you really think the old animation would have more appeal? imo, I don't like old anime. Even if they are what you call "well animated", I simply can't bring myself to sit through their old style. But I'm not saying all old anime are bad. In fact, the good "old" anime are just that much better because their plot have to be so above and beyond to makeup for its subpar animation. But then it brings up the point that old is simply not "as good as new" because if they are both mediocre anime, then people are most likely going to pick the more modern one. The problem here is your use of the term "objective". In your opinion, sure, but objectively, technology has simply advanced too much for them to be on equal ground. There will always be some well animated and some poorly animated, but on average, the difference between modern and old is too big to call them equal It depends on the plot as well. Even if something is badly animated a good plot might be able to save it. I do agree thought that anime nowadays is higher quality. |
| I feel like the word "objective" is being abused pretty hard in this thread. OT: I don't think that people realize that when people complain about old anime, animation has little to nothing to do with it. Animation could have even been better back then, I would still dislike old anime, same for a lot of new anime fans too I guess. Nothing personal against old, it's just a matter of taste. |
| I agree. Both the older and newer generation of anime have something special to offer. Distinct, different, and yet equal. |
| Lol using the term "objective" to make ur opinions seem neutral |
| Until you guys know what equipment was used for special effects before computers were used don't @ me. ;) |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| It depends greatly on production value. High budget 90's anime is better than 2019 seasonal trash. |
NANACHO FOR PRESIDENT |
| And lmao at the folks saying that "objectively" "old" anime doesn't hold up to today's anime because of the technology, just no... |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
DaCraziGuy said: iasuru said: Your title says "being objective", but there is nothing objective about the body of the title. That's the problem. I mean dude, I explained on the details, I told you 2 times the objective of the thread, you are the only one that didn't got it and you still insist. Jeez, you are a piece of art. GlennMagusHarvey said: Being objective about anime, neither old nor new anime is better than the other. They're just different art styles and different genre prevalences. And different people have different preferences. Yes, that is true. Gorochu said: No. If people choose not to watch old anime then so be it and vice versa. Nothing wrong if they choose not to watch old anime and vice versa. Why do you want to close your mind to different things and refusing to try other stuff? Refusing to try new things because of some preconception it's pretty bad actually. Knowing the history of something and being able to take steps into the new is what made humans improve in a lot of ways. That mentality is the one that triggered the dark age, lol. Refusing science and forgetting history was a huge deal and what you are saying is basically that. maybe don't misuse the word. your title doesn't state that the thread is going to have an objective. it states that the thread is going to be objective. big difference. One is a noun and one is an adjective. You're saying stuff about "opinions" when the body states "I'm going to teach you to be a rational being." hmmmm. |
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Dante012 said: @NbQuil: THANK YOU! It's exactly what I intended to say (and what I already said in a recent thread). When talking about visual quality (and that point only), OF COURSE old anime are bad compared to recent anime! It's not even a debate! And again, giving examples is NOT a proper argument. It's not even an argument at all. When talking about non-scientific stuff, there will always be exceptions. (The examples the OP gave are really bad, btw ; good for back then, but with today's standards, it's really lackluster in many areas). A recent anime can be bad because of the lack of experience/talent of the animators (or many other reasons), nobody can deny that. BUT an old anime will always be limited by the technology of its age: bad format, not HD, old-school techniques, no CG fx (which results in bad lighting, explosions, ...), and the overall lack of exigence from the public due to few competition (which is really important: competitivity is what drives improvements, that's the case in every industry). See? That's argumentation. Not examples, just simple rules that can't be denied. And of course, we're talking about visual quality only. Hard to give an objective "level" for music, plot, culture and the rest. (... Although I could argue that music was actually in bad quality as well, but I won't be nitpicky :) ) I don't agree with you at all about the technology limitations of old anime. Sure it makes some older anime look dated but often the older technology had lots of advantages too. The amount of obvious CGI you see in modern anime is pretty grating because of how it's used. It can ruin the entire experience for me if done especially bad which is something you don't have with traditional cell animation. The latter just makes everything more cohesive. When all comes down to it there are only a few things that count in animation: budget, talent and deadlines. If one is lower you'll find the quality will be lacking. That's why I can still say that Disney's Pinocchio has the best animation I have ever seen despite it being a movie from 1940. Even Pixar's beautiful animation can't compete with it despite the newer technology. Same with older anime. Akira is the best animated anime I've ever seen and I don't have high hopes of that changing within the next couple of years even if we live in the era of Makoto Shinkai. In anime series the quality has been pretty consistent since probably the 60's. I could be wrong about this though so I'm going to see if @Pullman has anything to say about this since he has seen way more than both of us together and knows way more about the subject matter at hand than I do. |
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| There was obvio some good shit back in the day. If we're talking about animation what about Akira's animation(among other great things about it) - by no means does that look 30 years old! Or even Cowboy Bebop for that matter? There's some good stuff that comes out these days as well (for example, animation wise I really liked the fights in Fate series). But if I had to choose I'd pick the cel animation over digital (especially CGI) anyday. Just like there's shit anime today, there was shit anime 50 years ago as well. No era is better or worse. DaCraziGuy said: ... Also I want to add a small thing, art is different than animation. Art is how it looks and animation how it "moves" basically. Lot of people seem to don't know that. ... Yeah that. Hard to believe how many ppl don't get it. |
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| People think that old anime are better because the bad ones were forgotten and we only know the good ones |
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Supercueca said: People think that old anime are better because the bad ones were forgotten and we only know the good ones People think new anime is better because of filters, artstyle being thier preference, and it being fresh in thier mind. Let us not forget the social element. Watching an anime with nobody to talk to about that anime is less appealing than a new popular anime with everyone to talk to about it. How an anime is experienced colors scores a lot. How someone experienced it socially. What their fave youtuber thinks of it. Memes. Regardless if those memes are even true. Another issue is that, well lets face it, people who watch older anime are more likely to use all 10 numbers to express their feelings where newer fans who are only watching newer anime use only 3. Most lists where there are only anime from the last 5 years will only use numbers 5-10 and this inflates the scores of newer anime. And yeah, I will include myself in this, watching the simulcast of Yuri on Ice as well as the simuldub and reading all those twitter posts and feeling such heights from a new anime definitely makes me always think of it in high regard and fondness of the memories it created. Older anime are at a disadvantage because there were less anime fans than there are now and even if they do have nostalgia for them, there are less of those people than the people who watch Crunchyroll simulcasts. I swear I think I only loved School Days as much as I did because I watched it with my friends. The experience was so incredible and fun. So when an older anime has a 7 is actually probably better than a newer one with a 7. |
Energetic-NovaFeb 16, 2019 2:59 AM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
holysauron said: Dante012 said: @NbQuil: THANK YOU! It's exactly what I intended to say (and what I already said in a recent thread). When talking about visual quality (and that point only), OF COURSE old anime are bad compared to recent anime! It's not even a debate! And again, giving examples is NOT a proper argument. It's not even an argument at all. When talking about non-scientific stuff, there will always be exceptions. (The examples the OP gave are really bad, btw ; good for back then, but with today's standards, it's really lackluster in many areas). A recent anime can be bad because of the lack of experience/talent of the animators (or many other reasons), nobody can deny that. BUT an old anime will always be limited by the technology of its age: bad format, not HD, old-school techniques, no CG fx (which results in bad lighting, explosions, ...), and the overall lack of exigence from the public due to few competition (which is really important: competitivity is what drives improvements, that's the case in every industry). See? That's argumentation. Not examples, just simple rules that can't be denied. And of course, we're talking about visual quality only. Hard to give an objective "level" for music, plot, culture and the rest. (... Although I could argue that music was actually in bad quality as well, but I won't be nitpicky :) ) I don't agree with you at all about the technology limitations of old anime. Sure it makes some older anime look dated but often the older technology had lots of advantages too. The amount of obvious CGI you see in modern anime is pretty grating because of how it's used. It can ruin the entire experience for me if done especially bad which is something you don't have with traditional cell animation. The latter just makes everything more cohesive. When all comes down to it there are only a few things that count in animation: budget, talent and deadlines. If one is lower you'll find the quality will be lacking. That's why I can still say that Disney's Pinocchio has the best animation I have ever seen despite it being a movie from 1940. Even Pixar's beautiful animation can't compete with it despite the newer technology. Same with older anime. Akira is the best animated anime I've ever seen and I don't have high hopes of that changing within the next couple of years even if we live in the era of Makoto Shinkai. In anime series the quality has been pretty consistent since probably the 60's. I could be wrong about this though so I'm going to see if @Pullman has anything to say about this since he has seen way more than both of us together and knows way more about the subject matter at hand than I do. I'm sorry but I just wrote a wall of text about the arrogance, ignorance and toxicity of modern anime fans when anime dares to mention old anime in a positive light and how old anime fans get passively bullied on MAL by being treated like little shits who are too dumb to understand the objectively inferior quality of what they like. No matter how harmless or neutral you make a thread about old anime, there will always be a horde of ignorant modern anime fans coming in the thread just to shit on everything old and throw around the word 'objective'. I hate to be proven right so soon after, but this thread is the perfect example. No claims of old anime being superior, just the neutral one that they're comparable and in the end it's a preference, and immediately you see the horde of aggressive modern anime fans trying to make themseleves feel superior by shitting on anything old and its fans. I decided yesterday I would not interact with these people again, it's a waste of time and it just eats me up, I pour so much passion and time into trying to explain to these ignorant bastards in what ways they're wrong, in what ways it's just a matter of preference and why they can't know what they're talking about when they never even watched anything old or studied animation in any regard, and just base everything on prejudices and generalizations, but noone ever wants to listen. These people don't want to understand about the strengths and weaknesses of animation in different eras or about how important technology is (or isn't) in comparison to talent, they just want to shove their shitty opinions about everything new being objectively better for no other reason than it being in everyone's face to make sure noone gets the idea of liking old anime and not feeling bad about it for choosing an inferior product. It's all a giant waste of time that just makes me miserable everytime I try to explain to them the difference between objectivity and personal preference or why art is never gonna be objectively better just because of when it was drawn. Or when I try to explain how modern anime are actually produced in lower resolution than old anime because they're digital and mostly done in 720p, while old anime is done in IRL 'resolution' on actual drawings and if you re-scan those cels today (which many remasters do), you get true HD unlike all the upscaled modern TV shows. People don't want to understand animation or appreciate old anime, they made up their mind that they are objectively inferior and liking them is not a matter of preference, but deterministic unless you're blinded by nostalgia or whatever. It's not just that they are unwilling to ever give anything old a chance themselves, they don't even allow us to like it without undermining our credibility by making us look like fools who like the inherently inferior product because we're too stupid to recognize the 'obvious' and 'objective' difference in quality. They never just argue it as a preference, but as the only logical preference. How do you deal with that day after day after day for 9 years without going crazy? You don't. I don't. I finally snapped yesterday, and from now on I'm not gonna try and patiently explain stuff but just be as hostile and demeaning as they are. The results are gonna be the same anyway cause they don't ever listen to facts or arguments that aren't their own, so why bother being polite to these fuckheads? I can't deal with that bullshit anymore. Fuck these people and their willful ignorance and random agenda against old anime. I tried for years to talk to them, explain how and why they're wrong and be reasonable about it, but I can't do it anymore. Noone ever cared anyway, they just want to feel superior over dumb old anime fans. Let them believe that CGI effects and shitty filters are objectively better than hand-drawn effects and lighting. Let them believe that modern anime is produced in higher resolution, even when it's objectively untrue and the only true HD ones you'll find are remastered oldies. Let them believe technology is more important for good art than talent and budget and time. Let them believe that age is more determining of visual quality than for example whether something is a high-budget movie or an average TV show. Let them wank themselves to death over their 'objective' preference and for rejecting everything old based on not ever having seen any of it. I just don't care anymore, I'm so done with this topic. I'm not gonna invest anymore of my passion and time into it just to end up feeling miserable because I'm only met with toxicity by 80% of the community who just can't accept any statement that doesn't glorify modern anime and deeply condemns old anime. Let them keep their elitist mindset, where they get so stuck on their own preferences that they try to objectivize them and treat any other preference as objectively wrong and inferior. I'm still gonna be open-minded and able to enjoy greatness from every medium and every time period, when they eventuall grow out of their anime phase, lose interest and move on to the next hobby they can have shitty and wrong opinions about. I'm seriously done with them. There is no cure for willful ignorance. After 9 years of trying to make people understand that old anime are worthwile, have their pros and cons like any other thing, that liking them is a preference and not a result of being blinded by nostalgia, but a result of being open-minded, that 80% of the rejection of old anime is simply because of what people are used to and you can get used to old anime really quickly if you just give them a chance, find one that hooks you and don't try to interpret any difference as an objective difference in quality when it really just is different, after 9 years of pouring passion into that topic I finally ran out. So many other people who didn't like old anime have been passively bullied out of AD by these walls that the modern anime fans put up in every single thread where someone dares to talk about old anime in a non-negative way, and finally they got to me too. So, sorry for the rant, but don't ping me on these topics again. I'll ignore any future topics that in any shape or form mention old anime, because it's just too depressing and miserable to deal with the collective ignorance and toxicity not just of a few individuals, but the majority of the community who all pat each other on the back for their wrong and judgmental opinions on anything old. Who needs arguments or reason or truth when you have the majority on your side? Noone. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| @Pullman I think ur really on the defensive here. To be fair, no one attacked no one in this thread. About objectivity, the very opening post, that took a "neutral" and "harmless" position as u say, used the word in the wrong way. The thing with the word objective is that it's really abused in the anime community, but it's abused both by old and new anime fans, so I don't think u can blame this on modern anime fans only (Personally, I've read countless time people talking about how old anime are objectively better) So basically my point is: whatever caused u this outrage, I'm sorry but I don't think this is the right thread to have it on. PS I read the comment u linked and I think that analysis is pretty unfair; u divided old anime fans into "toxic" and "reasonable" but u put all the modern anime fans into one huge category |
| We haven't lost or gained anything. If anything, it is just the availability and storage options. Not to mention a different supply and demand ratio, given that anime is now comparatively a worldwide phenomenon than before. It's a typical old versus new mind-share, with newer fans considering the oldies to be inferior because...'old'. As far as what accounts for good, the common point raised is almost always the animation. If you dig deeper into why they don't like old animation, they won't be able to substantiate it any further than "preference". For example, the best I can argue about old animation, or rather, the art being better in some places is that women were drawn aesthetically/proportionally. And I personally like that because they appeal to me more than tits made of unrealistic proportions and especially what constitute as Newton's wet dream (such as HighTits DxD). Want an example of aesthetically drawn women? Gunbuster OVA. As for why newer animation and art could look better? It looks cleaner, more vibrant and as a result, more likely to capture someone's attention. Some studios pay extra attention to fleshing out action scenes really well (Ufotable and arguably A-1 studios). The colour palette in older anime carries a certain level of hue and saturation that makes it look a little 'dull'. However, that's about it. Animation wise, I see improvements going by the number of anime I have gone through but art-wise, not so much. Concerning the matter whether older anime immediately become inferior due to them being "old"...you can't fix the stupid. All this talk about old vs new is wasted to be fair. Here's to hoping for people to place their personal enjoyment on the highest pedestal when it comes to consuming fiction, and also understand that their pedestal can also be the equivalent of a garbage bin to someone else. |
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
Skana said: Sure, despite there barely being any ecchi shows recently, hmmmmmmOld anime are always better. Nowadays we see fucking ecchi/harems/isekai trash for each fucking season. We gained nothing. We lost everything. Note: I haven't read the topic at all. I just went straight to the main questions lol |
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