| This might sound like a stupid question, but it's something I've never really understood. Obviously we all want some kind of story in our anime, because if there's no story, then there's nothing interesting happening, right? However, for me, an interesting story doesn't automatically make a show good. I also don't think it's the most important element. In fact, sometimes an overly-complex story can ruin what would have been an otherwise good show. Still, stories can only vary so much, and many of them tend to be very simplistic and very similar. I can see why that could get frustrating. However, I find that the main thing separating the good versions of those stories from the bad versions tends to be the presentation. That is, the specific directing in terms of the "camera" angles, timing, pacing, all of these subtle elements. The way I see it, a show with good presentation takes any story and makes it 10 times more interesting than it otherwise would be. I mean, just take a look at Studio Ghibli's films. Critically acclaimed for having excellent storytelling, yet... when I think about the stories, they all seem pretty simple. It seems like those films benefit much more from their presentation than they do their stories. I'd like everybody to picture something. The Hayao Miyazaki classic, Princess Mononoke... What if they re-created it, same story, same artstyle, same animation quality, same voiceovers and soundtrack. The only difference would be that it was entirely re-done with Family Guy's sitcom-style presentation. No advanced camera angles, just everything being shot from a side-view. Now, does that seem nearly as interesting? It doesn't, right? Presentation ties everything together, to me. It takes all of the other elements of a show and makes them shine. With poor presentation, I typically tend to like a show less, even if it's got good elements to it. To me, it's the most important part of any anime, for sure. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| So you're saying a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is just as much of a masterpiece as a Ghibli movie? Okay. |
| They're just people who don't actually understand what makes something good and assume the plot was the reason for why they enjoyed it even when it wasn't. It's like people who can't tell the difference between good animation and bad animation but then say the fight scenes in Soul Eater were cooler than the ones in Naruto without understanding why. Well not exactly, but I think it is a factor. |
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| I'm not concerned with plot, which is why an anime like Lucky Star is my 2nd favorite anime of all time. On the other hand, I know people who give Lucky Star 1-5 because it has no plot. I think it's a matter of preference. |
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| I see this in another way. Everything has some sort of "plot" to it, even if it's as simple as talking about what you ate for lunch. The significance of the plot is what differs from anime to anime, and I think that might be what you're getting at. Shows can be powered by visuals, music, atmosphere, or all three, without much need for a "plot." A plot is just like any other tool to storytelling. It can be great when put to good use, but if it's shoehorned or half-assed, it just gets in the way. As a side, "plot" seems to be thrown around as a catch-all term for what makes an anime good. "Lack of plot" coincides with both shows that are episodic and shows that are slice-of-life. Plot has a different purpose in shows like these, and bashing such shows for having no plot would be like bashing an apple for not being an orange. It does come down to presentation at some level, as it's all one big package that describes the overall aesthetic of the show. Still, I don't like how you spoke of turning Princess Mononoke into a sitcom-style presentation, or at least I'm not sure of what you're getting at. I get that it would make for a completely different show, but to what point? I've seen an interesting animation of just a single line, so I don't see why a side-view animation could be inherently worse. Perhaps a better example would be taking Princess Mononoke and, say, change all the music to some cheesy pop songs. |
| only very few stories that have no objective can be entertaining imo (example- working). plot keeps me hooked onto the story and keeps things exciting |
| Disliking a crappy plot ≠ disliking simple plotlines. |
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MotRin said: So you're saying a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is just as much of a masterpiece as a Ghibli movie? Okay. Well, no. I'm just saying that good presentation can improve both of them. It won't make them equal, but it will make both better. A static shot of a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is not as interesting as if they slowly panned in on it's eyes. Even something as subtle as that can improve something as stupid as a masturbating monkey. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| Because anime is a form of storytelling so people will care about the plot. |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money. |
| Because without a plot it's just so damn pointless. If I watch something without a plot (or with a shitty one) it makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. |
| [size=200]MAL AVATAR SYSTEM BLOWS |
Shocked said: Still, I don't like how you spoke of turning Princess Mononoke into a sitcom-style presentation, or at least I'm not sure of what you're getting at. I get that it would make for a completely different show, but to what point? I've seen an interesting animation of just a single line, so I don't see why a side-view animation could be inherently worse. Perhaps a better example would be taking Princess Mononoke and, say, change all the music to some cheesy pop songs. Yeah, I guess I agree to some extent. My example was very subjective, as I tend to not like that style of presentation that Family Guy uses. Shocked said: As a side, "plot" seems to be thrown around as a catch-all term for what makes an anime good. "Lack of plot" coincides with both shows that are episodic and shows that are slice-of-life. Plot has a different purpose in shows like these, and bashing such shows for having no plot would be like bashing an apple for not being an orange. Definitely agree with this. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
MotRin said: So you're saying a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is just as much of a masterpiece as a Ghibli movie? Okay. Sounds like a better protagonist than most Ghibli movies at least |
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| The worst part is that those "good plots" are usually a load of monkey cum |
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| LN/LN Adapts. - Highly care about the plot SoL - Not really but I'd like it to make sense of course Roamce - Highly, I'm actually quite sensitive about how I rate series that focuses a lot on romance Why? Because its at least 30% of the series. |
vigorousjammer said: Well, no. I'm just saying that good presentation can improve both of them. It won't make them equal, but it will make both better. A static shot of a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is not as interesting as if they slowly panned in on it's eyes. Even something as subtle as that can improve something as stupid as a masturbating monkey. So the camera slowly closes in on its face, clearly showing the ecstatic expression. The monkey slowly opens its mouth and pants louder. The camera switches to its hand showing the incredible speed that is still rising until Bam! The monkey lets out a wild moan. Its back arches back. Sparkles fill the screen as the camera zooms out slowly, revealing its whole body. This will be as good as a Ghibli movie? (oh god my brain.....) I'm only using Ghibli because OP uses it. Style of storytelling is one thing. Lack of plot is completely different. |
RinmotApr 13, 2014 11:52 PM
| The miracle is in the execution. I actually find anime that can brilliantly deliver something simple or cliche just as satisfying as an original idea that's well done. There is a limit to completely original creativity. Even Hitler borrowed all of his ideas from historical events. Oh and just a shout out to the side, so many people have a boner over trying to identify plot holes. |
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UnoPuntoCinco said: The worst part is that those "good plots" are usually a load of monkey cum I laughed harder than I should have. |
vigorousjammer said: Shocked said: As a side, "plot" seems to be thrown around as a catch-all term for what makes an anime good. "Lack of plot" coincides with both shows that are episodic and shows that are slice-of-life. Plot has a different purpose in shows like these, and bashing such shows for having no plot would be like bashing an apple for not being an orange. Definitely agree with this. Watabout the loose definition of plot eh? Eh? winkwinknudgenudge |
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Heredity said: Eyes.( . )( . ) |
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MotRin said: vigorousjammer said: Well, no. I'm just saying that good presentation can improve both of them. It won't make them equal, but it will make both better. A static shot of a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is not as interesting as if they slowly panned in on it's eyes. Even something as subtle as that can improve something as stupid as a masturbating monkey. So the camera slowly closes in on its face, clearly showing the ecstatic expression. The monkey slowly opens its mouth and pants louder. The camera switches to its hand showing the incredible speed that is still rising until Bam! The monkey lets out a wild moan. Its back arches back. Sparkles fill the screen as the camera zooms out slowly, revealing its whole body. This will be as good as a Ghibli movie? (oh god my brain.....) I'm only using Ghibli because OP uses it. No, it won't. Like I said, they wouldn't be equally good just by doing that. But it would be better than simply having a static shot of that monkey, right? I think so. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| Presentation can only serve to enhance, but I am yet to see it actually make a bad plot good. Many agree that Sword Art Online has some of the best presentation out there, yet it receives an inordinate amount of hate. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
vigorousjammer said: No, it won't. Like I said, they wouldn't be equally good just by doing that. But it would be better than simply having a static shot of that monkey, right? I think so. That is only the case when they both have equal quality of plot. Now if one has a much more interesting plot, it would be better even if it's stuck in the 70 animation style. |
RedRoseFring said: Presentation can only serve to enhance, but I am yet to see it actually make a bad plot good. Many agree that Sword Art Online has some of the best presentation out there, yet it receives an inordinate amount of hate. I suppose this is true. This whole conversation actually arose when I read some people's comments about how they didn't like Hellsing Ultimate because it "has no plot" Seeing that just reminded me how much hate simple stories get, even when those simple stories are told effectively. I do agree, though, that if a story is incredibly bad, there's no coming back from it, even with the best presentation money can buy. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| Because plot is the way the story unfolds, while story is just the premise. A good plot can save a completely ridiculous story, and a bad plot ruin an original story. |
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| cause they're ugly. :c |
DGemu said: Watabout the loose definition of plot eh? Eh? winkwinknudgenudge I have found this ( http://literarystudies.wikispaces.com/story+vs.+plot ): The story is the "chronological sequenze of narrated events" with no regard to the logical links between the events. The story is turned into a plot when the causal relations of the events are given. So in a plot, the presentation of the sequenze focuses on why the events follow each other. E.M. Forster gave the famous example :"'The king died and the queen died' is a story. 'The king died, and then the queen died of grief', is a plot." The plot shows the causality of a series of events. @vigorousjammer Presentation can make anime better. Good music, sounds, art style in a fight. I remember one of Ichigo's fight (character from the Bleach). At one moment music stopped and most of the screen went black. I was just... "wow". But... do you think anyone would watch it just for fights? I don't think so because it has hundreds of episodes! I cannot imagine some "kung fu master" that moves just like marionette. With an interesting story/plot behind it I could watch it, even it has 26 or more episodes. With a "nice presentation" but no interesting plot/story I can afford to watch at most 12 episodes animes/shows (in most cases). Some animes doesn't need too much art style (part of presentation) and it still can be good. Other animes, like from the "fighting genres" should looks nice. 5layer said: Heredity said: Eyes.( . )( . ) Sono me, dare no me? ( "Those eyes, whose are they?" ) but really... Heredity stop spamming |
| I'd take an anime with an excellent plot and average presentation over one with excellent presentation and average plot any day of the week. No matter how well a story is told, it's always as good as it was written. That's basically one of the reason I enjoyed Steins Gate more than Baccano for example. |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
| I don't care about plot as long as it didn't bug me much. For me, plot is only "ONE" aspect of enjoyment (Maybe something like 20% or less). Otherwise, why do you think I'm only downloading HD (and full HD) anime only? Why did I spent fair amount of money to buy a good sound system? Why I makes sure I did all of my homework before watching anime? |
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Wannabiteme said: 5layer said: Heredity said: Eyes.( . )( . ) Sono me, dare no me? ( "Those eyes, whose are they?" ) but really... Heredity stop spamming Breasts were technically relevant to the discussion. |
| Well I guess plot is important, but if you have good characters, then it isn't necessary in some cases. |
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| It's preferential, obviously. Plot is important to me, I won't watch anything that is relatively flatlined. Ghibli films being a good example (or some of them). I like to use Totoro as an example, something I get crucified over and over for even mentioning. Nothing happens, there was no point to it, I gained absolutely nothing from it. I don't necessarily look down on anyone for thinking otherwise, I'm sure different personality types are able to get something from it, but I couldn't. That said, people are concerned over it because that's what they want from the shows they watch. It also really depends on the genre, I can tolerate it if it's something I'm interested in as a whole. But me watching a show with a small plot doesn't happen too often. On the flip side, I can overlook poor presentation for good story initiation, I usually prefer the ladder of the two scenarios. |
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Heredity said: Wannabiteme said: ...spamming? dgemu referred to the other kind of 'plot,' which is tits'n'ass.Sono me, dare no me? ( "Those eyes, whose are they?" ) but really... Heredity stop spamming Ok... I'm taking back this. You are right. |
Prototape said: People are concerned over it because that's what they want from the shows they watch. Yeah, after creating this topic, that's the conclusion I came to, as well. I suppose it's really just subjective. All of the aspects of a show work together to make a cohesive experience, yes. But, I guess some people value certain aspects more than others. I'm the kind of person who values presentation over plot, even though I still care about the plot to some extent... but some people could care more about plot than presentation. It all depends on your point of view. I guess I just hastily created this topic after being butthurt over people saying Hellsing Ultimate "has no plot". :P |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
| Because people don't understand the meaning of plot. They define plot as something they consider interesting, whenever plot is whatever happens, regardless of how boring or generic it is. |
| The last series where the plot was one of the MAIN reasons I enjoyed was probably Shinsekai Yori in 2012. Usually plots are kinda boring and predictable to some degree, not to mention that they never have a proper ending in most anime anyway. I don't expect to enjoy any show for the plot, what draws me in are characters, atmosphere, dialogue or comedy and/or a heavy genre bias on my side. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: The last series where the plot was one of the MAIN reasons I enjoyed was probably Shinsekai Yori in 2012. Usually plots are kinda boring and predictable to some degree, not to mention that they never have a proper ending in most anime anyway. I don't expect to enjoy any show for the plot, what draws me in are characters, atmosphere, dialogue or comedy and/or a heavy genre bias on my side. God damn you have good taste. I wish I could participate in your Simul watch club. My internet situation is too tenuous to make any obligations though. |
| [size=200]MAL AVATAR SYSTEM BLOWS |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: The last series where the plot was one of the MAIN reasons I enjoyed was probably Shinsekai Yori in 2012. Usually plots are kinda boring and predictable to some degree, not to mention that they never have a proper ending in most anime anyway. I don't expect to enjoy any show for the plot, what draws me in are characters, atmosphere, dialogue or comedy and/or a heavy genre bias on my side. Too bad the plot in SSY is contrived and a giant ripoff of the book 1984. |
SolviteSekai said: Higashi_no_Kaze said: The last series where the plot was one of the MAIN reasons I enjoyed was probably Shinsekai Yori in 2012. Usually plots are kinda boring and predictable to some degree, not to mention that they never have a proper ending in most anime anyway. I don't expect to enjoy any show for the plot, what draws me in are characters, atmosphere, dialogue or comedy and/or a heavy genre bias on my side. Too bad the plot in SSY is contrived and a giant ripoff of the book 1984. Try and make me care. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
MotRin said: well it'd still be better than tales from earthseaSo you're saying a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is just as much of a masterpiece as a Ghibli movie? Okay. |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
| The Ghibli movies aren't even that deep. People on mal just rave about them because they are famous and popular in Japan. A legitimate weeaboo wouldn't be caught dead bad mouthing Studio Ghibli. |
SolviteSekai said: you seriously try way too hardThe Ghibli movies aren't even that deep. People on mal just rave about them because they are famous and popular in Japan. A legitimate weeaboo wouldn't be caught dead bad mouthing Studio Ghibli. |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
JizzyHitler said: SolviteSekai said: you seriously try way too hardThe Ghibli movies aren't even that deep. People on mal just rave about them because they are famous and popular in Japan. A legitimate weeaboo wouldn't be caught dead bad mouthing Studio Ghibli. 12500 posts and I try too hard. |
| Caue great plots are great. Its hard to pull off but when you do its amazing. I LOVE complex plots, I like the ones the most where there are a bigger amount of characters with different "substorys" that slowly come togheter towards the end of the anime into one big story. Great examples are Texhnolyze and Baccano and ofcoure from the live action part the ever known Game of Thrones. I love those kind of stories, and I wish there where a LOT more of those kind, but I guess they are rather hard to pull off. Nevertheless in my (unpopular) opinion story and plot is more important than characters, for serious anime at least. In comedy story isnt necesary at all. |
| Plot is pretty important, but I care more about the story. At the end of the day though, if something succeeds in what is sets out to do, I'm cool with it. |
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MotRin said: So you're saying a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey is just as much of a masterpiece as a Ghibli movie? Okay. Only seen one Ghibli movie and that is not what I'd list under a "good story"... in fact it's much closer to a gorgeously animated masturbating monkey... look at that robot's hand... |
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